I actually believe that at the end of the day, to build a career, that requires many sacrifices you have to make. And one of them is certainly that you also have many sleepless nights, because the more career you make, the more responsibility you carry. So you can address problems that everyone in the world can address, but the solution is important, and even more important is implementing the solution. Because at the end of the day, we've never had a problem of recognition in Germany, it's always been an implementation problem. So you have to bring a solution, but then also be ready for the implementation and to take on the responsibility.
Hello everyone and welcome to Sleepless Nights, the business podcast from Unternehmertum, Europe's largest startup center. We are now in the second season and want to illuminate how companies survive difficult situations, how they master challenges, and find new concepts. That is the approach of our podcast. Our guest today is a top manager at SAP, the most valuable DAX company, the only IT corporation from Germany of global standing. Thomas Saueressig, a warm welcome to you.
Yes, hello, I'm very happy to be here with you.
He started in 2004 as a working student. In his early 30s, he became CIO, Chief Information Officer. By now, he has long been on the board, and as the top customer manager, he is now responsible for the most promising business of SAP, the cloud division. With Thomas, we want to look back on his career today, on the transformation at SAP, and on the digital perspectives that Europe has, also in light of the Trump furor with which the USA is currently sweeping across the whole world. How do you grow in a crisis? That is the topic of our current edition of Sleepless Nights. Thomas, a warm welcome to our podcast. As with all guests in season 2, we also asked you to bring an object that has a special characteristic for you, something special. And the art is that you show it to us and we then have to guess what it is and why it is so special for you. So we are very excited about what you will present to us now as an object.
Yes, here. Okay, so for the listeners, this is a watch, a wristwatch. Not a Rolex, I believe.
No, not a Rolex. Not a Rolex, that's rather out of the question. The Rolex was photoshopped out of the picture with Klaus Kleinfeld back then, the Siemens CEO. So no Rolex, but a mechanical watch. And not a digital watch for an SAP board member, so not a typical Apple Watch, smartwatch, or a fitness tracker. To be precise, it's an automatic watch, even.
Mhm, very good. And bought with your first salary or what's special about it?
The special thing about the watch is that I bought it back when I was working in Palo Alto. That was exciting. It was an outlet inventory sale, so it was a great opportunity, so to speak. But the exciting thing about the watch has three aspects for me, or for this specific one. I've had the same watch on my arm every day for 15 years now. On the one hand, it's of course a memory of Palo Alto, an extremely innovative place to really think out of the box and see what you can do, and also the courage you have in Palo Alto, and of course in Silicon Valley as well, you see it every day. But on the other hand, it's also proof of engineering quality. I mean, the watch has been running on time for 15 years, which is extreme quality and excellence at that point. I believe this combination of innovation and quality is also what ultimately makes successful products. And the third aspect is definitely always a good reminder that time is the only thing you can't buy. Time is the only thing you can't get back. That's why you have to handle time extremely sensibly and make the best of it. I believe these three points make this watch, which I've worn every day for 15 years, so special. And I'll probably wear it for the next 15 years too.
But in Silicon Valley, they all walk around with other watches, with iWatches or watches that combine trackers, where you constantly monitor and optimize yourself. You're not the type to constantly optimize yourself, are you?
I actually believe I have a very good sense of myself, for my body, and what's good for me. In that respect, I believe I don't actually need an additional smartwatch to do that. And I believe when you are at peace with yourself, your soul, and your conscience, then you don't need that at that point. For me, the other qualities are much more important. Because I know many people who already have their second Apple Watch within a few years. As I said, I've had this watch for 15 years, it still runs on time, and it will still run on time in 15 years. And that is certainly something where I believe we must also appreciate this engineering art again. And I believe that is especially important in today's world, where so much is so quickly ephemeral, to have long-term quality.
So a conscious counter-signal against too much digital euphoria, so to speak.
Yes, a bit of a return to the basics.
Thomas, you are still the youngest board member of a DAX company, and you have been for many years. That, I believe, strongly expresses how special your career is. And then the growth hopes of SAP also rest heavily on your area, on Customer Services and Delivery. How many sleepless nights were actually necessary for this unique career?
So, I believe, first of all, the age is secondary for me at that point, and I believe it shouldn't play a big role at all in this topic.
You are 39, we may add at this point.
Absolutely. Yes. I believe with the sleepless nights, I believe that is a much more important and exciting topic. I actually believe that at the end of the day, to build a career, that requires many sacrifices you have to make. And one of them is certainly that you also have many sleepless nights, because the more career you make, the more responsibility you carry, the more you naturally have to worry about employees, customers, partners, analysts, and the like. And the more responsibility you carry, the heavier the burden is, of course. So there are one or two sleepless nights. Or to put it another way, there are of course many situations where you simply have to work through the night because you have to solve certain topics. So a lot of work is certainly part of it, and that's why in an emergency, you have to pull an all-nighter before an important go-live or to secure a customer. That's just part of the role. And that is actually talked about too little in Germany, in my opinion. Especially on LinkedIn, I believe there's a certain feel-good babble, but the reality is, at the end of the day, it's hard work, it's a lot of work, and that includes many sleepless nights.
Absolutely. As CIO, you had to be responsible for a day-long total failure of the email infrastructure many years ago, 9 years ago. The employees couldn't receive or send any emails at all. Was that the phase with the most sleepless nights in retrospect?
I believe it was actually not the phase with the most sleepless nights, but the incident was actually interesting. To give the context, in 2015, it was still the Outlook Exchange infrastructure on-premise. Those were on-premise systems, a server farm on-premise for emails or calendar synchronization for the employees. That wasn't in the cloud yet, Office 365 hadn't arrived in the company yet. As the person responsible at the time for IT services, including the Exchange infrastructure, what actually happened was that we had a complete day-long failure of this server farm. Now you can hardly imagine today how that feels when you have no emails for days and no calendar works properly, and that in a company that works very collaboratively. It was of course extremely intense. It also happened to be at the end of the quarter, where offers had to be sent to customers by email at that time. And it was of course an extremely critical situation. But those are exactly the leadership moments: how do you deal with it? On the one hand, I could have said, 'Well, I have a person responsible for the email infrastructure, I'll send him out there to report, and he has to go through the fire now. If not, then he has to go.' I didn't do that. Instead, I communicated it, I took the responsibility, and I went forward. I reported to the board and the supervisory board and stood in front of the team so that the team could do the job in the back and solve the problem again. The interesting thing is that this didn't just happen once, but actually a second time a week later. They always say once is forgiven, the second time it gets critical. And the second time, exactly the same topic: I went forward, took complete responsibility for it, the employees solved the problem accordingly. And the interesting thing was that many colleagues came to me afterwards and said, 'Look, Thomas, this is now the end of your career. You had a nice career, but you can't become CIO anymore because it was a big escalation.' Quite the opposite. It was the situation where I believe the board and supervisory board saw that I take responsibility, that I stand in front of the team, that I can act accordingly in crises. Because at the end of the day, I believe careers are born in the storm and in these crises, because that's where the wheat is separated from the chaff in terms of leadership. And I believe that rather led to SAP saying, 'Well, we trust him to take the next step, even if it's a stretch, and to take the next level of responsibility.' And I believe that's why one should never be afraid to take on responsibility or to go into the heat of an escalation and deliver the topic. At the end of the day, what it brought me was that the team stood extremely loyal behind me. There was extreme employee engagement afterwards because they were very glad to see that a leader doesn't just pass the blame down, but honestly gives the space for the employees to do the job. And I believe those are exactly the examples that ultimately make the difference, because you certainly don't need fair-weather captains.
Do you also take certain experiences from that time? When you describe it like that, I also jumped in front of the team the second time and basically pulled the Karen out of the dirt. But at the end of the day, doesn't that also create the momentum: okay, now it's really getting critical, then Thomas will come and solve it? Or what is your experience there?
I mean, it's actually also the case that I believe the topic of responsibility is not equally ingrained in everyone at the end of the day. And we can also say, to put it bluntly, if a board member like Thomas Saueressig always jumps into the breach when it gets critical, well, then he can jump into the breach every time for us as a team. Or how do you perceive that?
So I believe the teams, first of all, really appreciated it back then and saw that I am part of the team and that I don't hide or somehow step aside, but that I stand on the field with them and not on the sidelines. I believe that is a very important moment, that you are really a team and not a leader and then employees, but that it's a team and a team belongs together. The other aspect is, I believe, what you mentioned. I believe that over the history, my 21 years at SAP, time flies, that I have very frequently actually raised my hand in escalation moments or gone in to solve problems. It already started in consulting when a customer escalated, the implementation crashed, I was exactly the one who enjoyed going into such moments. I feel very comfortable in such moments. My first manager back then, actually still during my BA studies, in my final interview, told me, 'Thomas, you are like a firefighter. Whenever there's a fire, you come in and you feel comfortable there.' And he prophesied to me back then, 'Once a firefighter, always a firefighter. That's an attitude you will probably have for the rest of your life.' And so far, I believe he was right.
So you are the Red of SAP, one could say?
No, but I do believe that taking responsibility is simply important. And even when something isn't great or isn't nice, or when you can't shine at first but have to work it out together, I believe that's something that simply gives me energy, so to speak. Yes, I have to say.
Thomas, we are about the same age, or how should I say, similarly young. Now, firefighters are also often taken advantage of because they are always the firefighters. Now, looking at your career, and I mean, it will certainly also occupy many people how one can be a DAX board member at 39 for several years. In the end, how much of your career was luck, let's say quite bluntly, and how much was also, to some extent, political skill?
Ah, that's a good question. I've never really thought about the ratios, but certainly all three things have to come together. I think that's fair to say. Without expertise, without the curiosity to work out new things, and without a strategic view of the company, it certainly won't work. But the topic of luck certainly also comes into play. You have to be lucky sometimes. I always say it when someone asks me, 'Well, did you always want to become a board member?' I believe you can't plan it. I believe it would be wrong if you go into a company when you're young in your career and say, 'I want to become a board member of this company.' I believe you can't plan it. A lot of luck certainly belongs to it, right time, right place. But, and I believe that is also very important, you naturally have to go into this responsibility at some point. I remember when I was an assistant to the board member, Gert Oswald, he was the board member for the longest time at SAP back then, responsible for service, support, and the like. And I remember a meeting, it was around 2011 when the iPad came out, and it was about the topic of mobile. And the CIO at the time, a very innovative CIO, had given all employees iPads, or many employees iPads. The question now is, what do you do with the iPads if you only put emails on them? It's just a better email machine, that doesn't help. So I was relatively, let's say, vocal and also brought it up to say, 'Well, just handing out iPads, what's innovative about that? How does that bring productivity? It doesn't make sense. What are the business applications for it? How do people work differently now? What processes can we really map mobile?' And that's the art. And the CIO at first stumbled a bit for a week because we had discussed it beforehand in a larger group. But after a week, he came to me and said, 'Thomas, well, you talk about it so strongly, then do it. Come into IT, I'll give you 20 headcounts, you build a mobile team.' That was also my step into IT, my first manager role at SAP. I got those 20 headcounts, built a mobile team to build these apps for the employees of SAP. So you also have to, let's say, when you point out problems, also have solutions ready. Not just point out problems, anyone can do that. Anyone in the world can point out problems. The solution is important, and even more important is implementing the solution. Because at the end of the day, we've never had a problem of recognition in Germany, it's always been an implementation problem. So you have to bring a solution, but then also be ready for the implementation and to take on the responsibility. And you have to do that, even when you go out of your comfort zone, even when it gets heated, and even when you take a risk. At the end of the day, whether it works out or not is another question. If it doesn't work out, maybe the career is over sooner than you wish. But I believe that's part of it, taking risks and continuously challenging yourself. I know many great, intelligent people who have been in the same role for 10 or 15 years and don't want to do another role or step out of their comfort zone because it feels so good to be the expert in one area. But being the expert in one area might not be enough to make the various steps. And I think that's sometimes an uncomfortable feeling for many: oh, now I'm not in my comfort zone anymore, now I'm not the expert anymore, or I don't know the people in the team anymore. It's a new team, and how do I deal with that? In retrospect, I believe it was very important for me in my career to get to know new business areas, new countries, new teams every few years and to simply develop a broader view of the company, for our customers, and of course also to develop a more strategic understanding.
So really raising your hand, as you said before. Now, there is enormous pressure in the tech world, one could say. A board member also bears a lot of pressure. How do you deal with it? How do you relieve stress? Do you, for example, go to relax to the Rhein-Neckar Löwen in the SAP Arena or to TSG Hoffenheim, the SAP co-owner?
So I actually have, unfortunately, far too little time for that. But there are two aspects. One aspect is actually, I draw positive energy from my job because I enjoy being with people, I enjoy solving problems. That means for me, this stress is also positive stress, to be quite honest. I also believe it's very important that when you love your job and have a passion, you also get positive energy. Without this positive energy, you probably won't be able to sustain it in the long run. So it's very important to have a passion for the activity itself. On the other hand, you naturally need a balance, and that's exactly the question: how do you get the balance in my situation? I have to be quite honest, my balance is my family. I have two small children, 5 and 7 years old. That means on the weekend, I spend a lot of time with my wife and my two children, and then I also get nicely grounded and come out well because you have completely different problems again. And in that respect, I believe it's very, very healthy. But I definitely need to do more sports again. That will also come back when the children are more independent. But currently, I focus very strongly on the family and, of course, on the job, even if I take a bit of a backseat during the week because of it.
You already work very long hours, you mentioned that earlier, and then of course many business trips, presumably. Then only the weekend remains for relaxation, although I believe everyone has to find their own strategy for that, especially on the topic of work-life balance or whatever you want to call it, because you have to be at peace with yourself, and the family also has to be at peace with the model.
And I personally am extremely disciplined that no matter where I travel in the world, on the weekend I am at home. Even if I'm in America for a week and the next week again in America, I try to be home on the weekend to have quality time with the family, even if it means I'm on the plane a bit more, have a bit more jet lag. But it's important for the family. Just as, for example, every birthday of my children and my wife, I am home, without question. There's no discussion about it. Even if there's a meeting, I would cancel the meeting to be home for the birthday. I believe it's very important to set these priorities very clearly at the end of the day, and that really makes the difference.
Yes. Thomas, we just had the federal election. What are your expectations for the future government? It will very likely be a coalition between the Union and the SPD. What agenda should this government set? How can Germany get back into a growth phase? What could the economy do for that?
I believe exactly what you mentioned, the main goal must be that we kickstart economic growth, because the moment we have more economic growth, we can also invest more in certain areas accordingly. In that respect, growth is the solution. To get growth, innovation is an extremely important point. We must talk more about innovation and the joy of innovation in companies in Germany again. That SAP is the only tech company in the DAX in that form is certainly something where there should be 10, 20, 30 more SAPs in that form. And that means, how do we create an environment for venture capital, for startups? So the topic of innovation is certainly a major focus. The other is the topic of digitalization. We must finally digitalize much faster and thereby also debureaucratize through digitalization. You naturally have to do a lot there. And a topic that, in my opinion, is discussed far too little is the topic of education. Because especially with the topic of artificial intelligence, the topic of education will have to change significantly. And I believe if we, as a high-wage country, I mean, we were once the land of poets and thinkers in Germany, that differentiated us back then, we still have that, but we must also differentiate with it and remain that in global competition. We must, I believe, put the topic of education at the very top of the priority list, because naturally, through the best talents and the best education, we can secure our prosperity in the long term, because we can naturally also promote innovation and invention. That's why, in my opinion, it's too little. So innovation, digitalization, education are certainly extremely important topics. And the other topic, through geopolitics, is certainly the topic of digital sovereignty and how Europe and Germany in particular can develop the strength it must in the current multipolar world we are in.
