Soulful Conversations with Bithika Anand and Sudhir Kumar Jha, Group Head at HDFC Bank Ltd.

That was the first interview I have agreed because it came from you.

Yeah, I think it goes back to my initial childhood. I was born in a very small place which is very near to Jamshedpur, which is a tribal area, and that's Ghatsila, Hindustan Copper Limited. That is where I was born and brought up because my father was a mining engineer. You are born and brought up with a concept of a go-getter side of a personality. Moving on to my career, I went to Delhi and I had of course got through in doing my masters in microbiology, but I was sharing my hostel room with one of my colleagues in the PG hospitals in University of Delhi, and this colleague happened to be pursuing law. So I could read some of the law books. I found that this subject was very interesting, and so I thought that let me shift to law because it's very interesting. So I took admission in law from the Campus Law Centre, and as the Bihari bug bit, it was also a backup for civil services. But during my tenure in law, I never diverted myself. I enjoyed my three years of law. Of course, I had initial struggle of moving out of hostel and then again getting into a hostel out of the legal merit as the route was there.

Yeah. So people used to laugh that leaving microbiology and being waitlisted in law admission and still a person is interested, but actually I found it very interesting while reading law books. Then I moved on to PG men's hostel because I was lucky enough to get a hostel in University of Delhi. During my last year, that was in '89 to '92, I did appear for civil services. I had given prelims and all, but there was campus selection going on. I had two options: either to get into the profession or campus selection was on. This DCM group was there for the campus selection. So they had a scheme for business managers and they used to select few people together and few from law. So they wanted to select one person from Campus Law Centre and I got through. At the same time, I was also offered LLM. So the choice was very clear with me, but there was nothing of that sort that I wanted to pursue corporate side, but some feeling of insecurity prevailed at that point in time. I thought it's better that I pick up a job. So I got through in the business manager scheme of DCM. Once I got in there, they had a very nice training and you're trained in various sectors, and then you have to choose a sector. I chose sugar, so I was in one of the sugar factories for 5 years in UP, that's Mana Sugars. I had a wonderful experience out there because sugar was something when you touch sugarcane and sell sugar or byproduct, it's all law. Then I realized that it's a very interesting field and you could do many things out there. At that time, I never had in my mind that I should pursue GC or whatever. My main focus was to gather maximum knowledge in the field. So I moved to Mumbai. I came in 1997. I had joined SIDBI, after SIDBI I moved on to Larsen & Toubro, and then ICICI. Suddenly it came on my way on the 10th year of my career where I was offered the GC role in HDFC Limited. But hold on, my whole approach was to have legal knowledge for every sector, be it IT, be it anything. It was just coming up at that point in time. So it just came along. I always loved what I was doing.

Yes. Because this was the only area which I had never worked. I was on the other side of finance. So I thought let me take it because I always believe that a lawyer as a profession is like a sharp knife, and if you're sharp enough you can cut everything that you want. So that's how I moved on to finance. Gradually, if you ask me, I realized that being a lawyer, you can't be a lawyer lawyer. You should understand the area where you are advising. To understand that area better, you need to equip yourself with the basic knowledge and the tools. That is how I pursued my masters in finance. And of course, right now I'm doing an interdisciplinary PhD with finance, law, and economics.

I think I have been lucky enough because I have handled industrial sector, real estate sector, banking sector, NBFC. I've been lucky enough. In law, you handle something else, project finance, projects, and everything.

There are only two things which I have always kept in my mind. One is what is very famously called Satyam Eva Jayate. Always be on the side of what is true. At that particular point in time, you be in any role. You can be a father, you can be a brother, you can be a friend, you can be an adviser. What does your concept of dharma call for? That's number one. Number two, I have always been influenced by one saying that in your life, three people become your yes man: your legal adviser, your medical adviser, and your financial adviser. Your future is doomed. So I have never been a yes man to anyone.

Fortunately or unfortunately, none in the legal field. I have always been influenced by people who are outside the legal field. The first person who has influenced me the most in my life is my maternal grandmother. I had been with her during my childhood, and the way she has led her life, she is one lady who has played a key role in approaching when you reach a dead end. How would you approach? What choice of thought would you choose? And of course, my father. I had a short span with him, but my father had his own way to teach the outside world to you. And my mentor, Dr. G.C. Duttaroy, and Mr. P. Bakshi when they were there in the sugar industry. The way they groomed me, the way they taught me, and the way they told me that whatever you do, you love. Not necessary you get what you're interested in, but you can always make things interesting which comes to you.

What I enjoy is that in your role as a GC, you are the only one who can guide the conscience of people. Apart from your advice, what you're telling them is not right or wrong. It is whether you are being sensible or you're being stupid. If you have maintained a right path and not compromised your integrity, you are the one who can make or break. That inherent satisfaction that comes in this role, that you are not supposed to compromise. That's the biggest gift, and you are free. The freedom and non-compromising position is the maximum that I have enjoyed in this journey. Few moments have been there which have impacted me in a way, not thinking anything else, but the impact that you have when you're in a corporate sector on a normal man and a normal person. What are you trying to save? Can't you find a better solution rather than... There are situations where I have felt, do you want to solve this problem or do you want to dissolve this problem? One of the biggest saddest experiences that I had is when I was in ICICI and I was handling demat accounts. One fine morning, you have all the powers and all the court orders to go and take possession. So bankers are there demanding money, the owners have fled the country. But when you enter to take possession, you see all the workers, all the laborers who have lost their job. Now, can you enter a home and ask them when you see that the woods are burning and you see there is flour, there is chai, there is dal, the small kids? You have to throw them out because you want to take possession. These are some areas, and there are many areas in law which I feel have to be dealt with in a very different way. It needs a total revolution rather than a mere solution. Those things have impacted me, and that is where the conscience comes in. Is this the solution, or would you have done something better?

See, people think that they are leaders. I feel that people make you a leader. I've always felt it's a team who makes you a leader. There has to be an acceptance. It's like a father thinks that he made the son or daughter, but it is the daughter who makes her father, the son who makes his father. I've never thought that I'm a leader. I have a very inclusive model. In our field of law, I feel that we are all professionals, so there cannot be a hierarchy. You have to keep, like today, if even a trainee comes to me, I make him or her very free to argue and see. The only thing that I have followed in my style is what they call management. I break it into three pieces. I always tell my friends and my team people, you see, you have to think management as 'man', 'age', and 'mint'. So what is that man? What is that human being there? If you can make out that here is a person who is surviving today because the fact that the Almighty has made him worth something, now try to understand that man, it can be a human being, and look at his age. Respect the age. And then he or she or you will reveal what he or she is meant for, and then help him or her to become what she is meant for. And you can only be a toolbox, nothing more than that.

One of the experiences I never forget is when I was a trainee and I had gone to brief one senior counsel in Allahabad High Court. There, we were told that we never used to engage anyone, so you have to brief the senior counsel. I still remember, I can name, I was briefing Sudi Chandra Aaran, who was at that time a counsel at Allahabad High Court. He took the papers and he just threw it. He told me, 'Have you never briefed anyone?' So I didn't get disturbed. I said, 'Okay, give me 8 hours.' I went back and then my mentor came. Mr. Bakshi taught me that this is how the briefing is done. After a few hours, I again went and I briefed him. He just looked at me and he said, 'Okay, Shanti Bhushan is coming tomorrow. I will not brief him. You brief Shanti Bhushan.' I briefed Mr. Shanti Bhushan, and Mr. Shanti Bhushan told me, 'Okay, now that you have briefed, you're the first legal adviser to a corporate, and I would like you to do research for me the whole night. You can take it as a punishment, but that's what I want.' This still stays with me a lot. I laugh at the event when the papers were thrown, and it had an impact.

I think if I would have got proper guidance, I was very influenced to become a revolutionist in the tribal area. I was very influenced by the people who used to have revolution movements out there because I have seen how tribals were being treated. That's number one. The other thing is that I would have become a singer because I used to be very involved in singing. One day my father said, 'This is a very tough profession you're trying. You better do an easy thing.' So those are the two things I could have gone into.

I never believed in work-life balance, but I always believed in equilibrium. The concept of equilibrium, not balance. There's no balance. Both are equally important. I think I've been blessed the way I have managed. You are blessed with a family who helps you, and you also go back and give a career a slowdown. Suppose when my daughter was in 10th, my daughter was in 12th, my son was in 10th, I had slowed down. But when I slowed down, I triggered my passion for studies. So during that time, I managed that, okay, let me also do something.

Still studying. I am at the thesis stage. So maybe by December or January, I'll be through with this. Let's see. Inshallah.

From my experience, one thing is very important which I feel is missing in today's generation and many lawyers. They want to do too many things while they are studying law. I think anyone who is doing law should just enjoy doing law for 3 years or 5 years. They do too many things. Number one. Number two, never ever put a past into the present. Every matter, every document that comes to you, see it afresh. See it as if you got to be there. But the most important thing is that read, study, and study unrelated subjects as well. Ideas always come from unrelated areas. If you think that it will come from your own profession, it doesn't.

Yes, yes, yes. Spirituality is something which is so inbuilt in me. I feel that there's nothing beyond that. I have been, in the sense, I am a believer of the Bhakti Marg. As they classify now, I had been into it without knowing that this is called Bhakti Marg. Since childhood, as I told you, I'm quite influenced by my maternal grandmother. She always used to take me to all the temples, all the places, and she was so surrendered with all disparity in her life and challenges in her life. I do believe in it. There's nothing not to believe in it. Today, there are ideas which come to me, there are decisions which come to me, and the next day someone asks me, 'How did you get this idea?' I don't know from where it came. I do believe in spirituality. I think I am blessed with Mahabhagati, and I feel that everything lies there. She takes care of everything.

First of all, I feel that who you are doesn't depend on anything. Once I move out of my cabin and I get onto a lift, I tell them, 'Look, five people even within your lift don't recognize you. They don't know who you are.' I think a human being should do something which can become a memory chip in everyone's brain rather than they need to remember you. At the end, I don't want this world to remember me. If you have touched somebody, your mother, father, you don't need to remember them. They are there. So you should be such a human being and you should be blessed enough to be helpful to everyone who came into your life and your institution. Bad, good, ugly, you will be there in their memory. That's what I believe in.

Thank you so much. I look forward to meeting you again.