Partner at Andreessen Horowitz, Andreessen Horowitz
How to Build a Better Banking Startup with Chris Britt and Angela Strange
Chris Britt, the chief executive of Chime and Andreessen Horowitz’s Angela Strange know that money is what everyone wants. The problem is how to make it more accessible to everyone in the world. Hear them discuss how to build a better bank for everyone.
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About Angela Strange
Angela Strange, a general partner on the fintech team at Andreessen Horowitz (a16z), has discussed the concept of "default global" companies, which she described as businesses that are built from the start to operate across borders. In a February 2023 podcast, Strange said that "every company is going to be a fintech company" and highlighted investments in companies like Jeeves, a global expense-management platform, and Deel, a borderless hiring platform. She stated that compliance, when done well, can improve user experience and business economics, and argued that the current moment is "the very best time to be building something default-global." In a 2019 appearance, Strange discussed the banking startup landscape, stating that "there is easily 50% of America living paycheck to paycheck who have fewer options and are being gouged," and that serving those customers represents a "massive opportunity." She also noted that outside the U.S., the opportunity can be even larger due to high smartphone penetration and low credit-card penetration in many countries. Strange has advocated for an "infrastructure thesis" in fintech, focusing on selling tools and services to other businesses rather than building consumer-facing products directly.
Transcript (77 segments)
I
Interviewer0:11
Giving us a warm welcome than that. I'm sorry, low energy, and we're talking about billions of dollars worth of businesses being made. How do you argue with billions? Billions, yeah. That's what I'm talking about. Make that money. No, I really appreciate you. I'll take you, sir, goofy, taking the time to come down here today and talk a little bit about how to create the next big FinTech company. I think we're going to expand our discussion beyond just the confines of banking because there's so much going on around FinTech broadly that we can talk about, and I'd like us to get into as many of these different areas as possible. We do have an expert on the banking side of the equation with Chris.
C
Chris1:10
You, Chris, is Chime actually a bank? We are not. We do offer, because I'm banking, we offer bank accounts. We're the largest and fastest growing company in the challenger banking space, so we don't refer to ourselves as a bank. We do offer a suite of financial products: checking accounts, savings accounts, Visa debit card. We do it in partnership with FDIC insured banks, and so the bank is the one that actually holds the money. We consider ourselves more of a consumer technology company, a payments company. What we've done is we've built the majority of the tech stack from the ground up, which allows us to operate at a very low cost structure, and that allows us to offer a value prop that's very different than...
I
Interviewer2:11
It's amazing because we're just scratching the surface of our conversation and already there's a ton to unpack. I think when you say that you're a payments company, I would think of something like Stripe or Square or any other or PayPal as payments companies, and not Chime banking necessarily. Angela, can you talk a little bit about, can you break that down into the different levels that exist in the payment space? I feel like we're going to have to be doing this a lot, just parsing what exactly is happening because there's so much in FinTech.
A
Angela Strange2:45
Well, even if you look at what Chris has built, like now five million users. As a user, you see free checking, amazing. That doesn't exist if you...
There's a Volve Bank and Trust, and you don't know who they are. You often don't know who to talk to, how do you get them to talk to you if you're an unknown startup? This process to do this can take 12 to 18 months to get this deal. And you think, okay great, I've now got my sponsor bank license, I'm done. But no, you need to find a payment processor partner, you probably need someone to print your cards, if you want to do remote check capture, and so you have to put all of these things together. And you haven't been able to do anything super innovative yet. Then you get to build your great user top layer. There's a lot of stuff that needs to go underneath. And then what Chris is referring to is often you can get started more quickly by doing all of these partnerships, but if you really want to provide a better experience, you're going to have to build...
C
Chris4:10
The transactions make money when the cards get used, and we're able to do that in a way that's highly profitable because of our technology approach. Look, being a technology company, not a bank that's hiring enterprise software companies to run your back-end. Let's talk about that process of reaching out to the bank that wound up being your partner bank, the one that undergirds the deposits. How did you make the decision of who to work with, and how did you get them comfortable with working with you as an early startup with no customers?
Well, that's going to be part of the advice I would give to entrepreneurs. Well, yeah, we're all over you. I mean, look, there's all the stories about a guy in a garage, people get in a garage and figure something out in college, and they...
I was head of product at Green Dot and head of Corp there, so I knew this category really well. And I would argue that was probably in the early days a superpower that I had in terms of talking to investors, because they said, 'I'm not really sure this free checking account business is ever going to work, but if there's anyone on the planet that I might want to bet on, it's a guy that's worked in that area for ten years and has a technology co-founder who's super smart and knows a lot of stuff.' But getting back to your original question, it wasn't that hard for me because I know all the players. I worked at Visa, they all wanted to be my friend. I worked at Green Dot, we had partnerships with many banks, so I knew all the senior executives. So I'm probably not your typical case study in that area.
I
Interviewer5:55
But you did have to make a...
C
Chris6:11
These are regulated products, and you have to be... it's a little different than just a renegade software business model. You can't just iterate and launch stuff without getting approvals. We actually have to work within the system. Checking accounts are regulated products. If you're doing a partnership with a bank to help you with the lending product, all of that needs to be worked on in coordination with regulators before you launch products, or else you get your wrist slapped. So that's a lot that goes into that. You can't just do it based on the economics. The partner that we chose, the first bank that we have a few bank partnerships with, but our primary one is with Bank or Bank today, or at least it has been historically.
It was a combination of they know how to work with entrepreneurs and in partnership with third parties. They've got processes in place to review how we launch new products and new services, and then before we roll those things out, they review it. Well, I mean they have to do it themselves, yes. And everything else that needs... they have operations to support partners. So if you go to a bank that's never done that before just because they give you a good price, that's right. Exactly. If you think about it, what's in it for the bank? And there are more and more banks that are becoming these sponsor banks now. They've realized that they have an asset, which is primarily their license. What are they not good at? Acquiring customers, building products that are user-facing and great. So it's very smart for them to partner with...
I
Interviewer8:11
Know, stay compliant, but also work with a startup to be able to provide that better user. Well, and just even talking about that, I think opens up the window to all of the ancillary services that a company can start around. How to provide better KYC through machine learning and a better sense of identity management. That's a service that if you wanted to start a business to sell in a FinTech, I don't know if there's still an opportunity there if that's been circumscribed. But you see not only that, but I think that there seem to be two ways that people are thinking about starting FinTech companies. One is that you're an overlay on top of a traditional industry's back-end and operations, and you're just a better customer acquisition model for them, and you can make money through that.
A
Angela Strange9:10
You're hitting on my favorite thesis, which is the infrastructure thesis. How do you sell picks and shovels? Both the new FinTech companies and increasingly the incumbents that have these legacy systems, been around for decades, and they don't love them either. They're high-cost, you can't update them. And so there are now starting to be large companies that just pick off what can seem like a small piece of back-end. It really isn't. You hit on KYC, but there's a whole host of other ones. For instance, there's a company SynapseFi, and the problem they solve is if you don't have Chris's background, how do you find your sponsor bank? How do you know what a good processor to partner with is? You really don't. You might have a brilliant product idea, and so now you can go to Synapse. They will make sure that you're compliant, you pass all of the bank's...
I
Interviewer10:11
Infrastructure services in the cloud. You have payment processing companies and other types of financial services companies trying to be ecosystems themselves. I know that Visa has been making a huge push to recruit startups into the Visa ecosystem. MasterCard, I think the same. Is it better for a startup to work with another startup that's trying to provide these services so that you don't get locked into a particular ecosystem, or do you want to align yourself with one of these big vendors, the same way someone would do Azure versus AWS versus Google Cloud?
C
Chris10:45
Yeah, there's a lot of different questions in there. It sort of depends on which bit to unpack. I'll try to... yes, we've got a lot. There's lots of startups, or even beyond startups now, that have services for companies like ours.
This company Persona that we're doing a test with right now to help us with additional verification we might want to do with someone where you can take a photo of an ID and they have the technology to prove that that's a real person or not. So yeah, lots of cool companies that we can partner with. Does it really make more sense to do that than to partner with someone like MasterCard or Visa who can kind of soup to nuts have the whole thing, take care of it? Well, they don't. They are more... I mean, everybody knows the Visa and MasterCard brands, but it's a switch. It just connects merchant and issuing bank. So with a great ad budget and a great brand and amazing services, I mean, we love... we happen to...
There aren't that many examples, at least in the US in recent memory, of new networks that are built. The last one is PayPal. I thought we chose to partner with one of the big networks and just own the consumer relationship. And then even though the money resides at a third-party bank, we think of it as a tri-party relationship between us, the bank, and the consumer, with us having the primary or lead position in the relationship.
I
Interviewer12:45
What was the biggest pain point for you when you were starting out? You had relationships with all of these guys, you knew the industry, but was there anything that was still a friction for you? What was the toughest thing about...
C
Chris13:12
Thank you. I mean, in the earliest days, it was just proving that this is a business model that actually worked. There have been other examples of companies that had tried to do some really cool companies. Simple was one that had a great brand, and in many ways what they stood for is very similar. We stood for just the underlying business model, it wasn't that great. So I think getting off the ground, the hardest thing... well, of course financing in the early days. That's when Prosper and Lending Club and every VC we pitched, they'd say, 'Why are you trying to get people to put their direct deposit or their deposit with you? Why don't you give them money? That's a way better business model.' And those businesses are fine, but here we are in 2019, it seems like every FinTech is launching a checking account.
Be able to tell the story of the right team to solve this problem. And I think even though we certainly didn't figure it out as quickly as we would have liked, it's been seven years already. Great progress, but particularly the last couple of years. In the early days, I think there was a willingness to take a bet on us just because of our expertise. You have a background, there's something to be said for team.
I
Interviewer14:36
Angela, when you look at the business model, how did you get comfortable with the idea that challenger banks would be able to generate revenue beyond debit card processing fees, which as someone noted in the audience, can't cover customer acquisition costs?
A
Angela Strange14:52
I think yes, I can. Oh, then I've got you. I think yes, yeah, we can. So that we...
Much around the unbundling of the bank. You guys have probably all seen this graphic, which is usually picking on Wells Fargo. It's their homepage. There's a dozen different startups at every single line that Wells Fargo does. A lot of them are lending companies that are breaking those apart. Those companies had a lot of promise and are still doing very well. But I think what we discovered was if you refinance someone's credit card debt, like Lending Club, which is 50% of their business, that can be great, but then what next? A lot of the lending companies were stuck on this treadmill of having to continuously acquire customers. Whereas now, act two of financial services is pick a super strong wedge that's going to enable you to acquire customers, but then think about how do you...
Products that actually have a daily use case, and then there's so many more things that you can layer on top of those, and it's so sticky. So if you can get people to do it with a great hook, be it get your paycheck early or a variety of different things, there's a lot of other services you can layer on top.
I
Interviewer16:28
It sounds kind of gimmicky, but are there still other hooks out there that haven't been explored that you would find compelling to invest in yet another challenger bank?
A
Angela Strange16:38
Oh, there's so many. I give you... like, everybody, what are your top five hooks? Everybody in the US needs banking services. I often speak that there's two banking systems in the US. There's one that probably most of us are in. We get credit card offers all the time in the mail, we're totally bombarded, we don't love our bank, but we don't...
They gouge, they have fewer options. There still hasn't been enough new companies and innovation started there. So here's an example of a really interesting hook. One in seven families are on and off ways to be called food stamps. You'd think if you're a large bank, you can't serve this customer because it costs you several hundred dollars just to serve a customer. If you have a way better cost stack, you could. This team who grew up on these social programs started what was a personal finance manager for food stamps. So you could load in your card that you get from the government, it shows you exactly... it was a Y Combinator company, it was out of another program called Robin Hood. That goes after this. A clever that you've got a bunch of money at the start of the month, and better yet, here the grocery stores you can go to where you get a discount. That's a pretty amazing wedge, and now they're layering on more banking services.
I
Interviewer18:19
Would you be competing for those same customers at some point, or is that a different market size? You're not necessarily going after the unbanked or underbanked, you just want to hit that middle-class American?
C
Chris18:30
We target everyday Americans. If they happen to not have a bank account, they're more than welcome to join us. But most of our customers are coming from Wells Fargo and B of A and Chase. They're already banked. They probably got a bank account because their mom opened one up for them when they were a kid in high school or early into their 20s. They might have a student checking account that didn't charge fees, but then all of a sudden you see...
A nominal fee, like a tip, like one, but you pay a dollar instead of 30 or 15, whatever it would be. Those sorts of features work really well. We started with a big value prop beyond the fees and the slick app, which was that we would give consumers their paycheck two days early. They sign up for payroll direct deposit. A couple weeks ago, we announced the launch of a service called Spot Me, which is an alternative to overdrafts. Basically, if you're on direct deposit, then we'll let you take your account negative up to a hundred dollars, and then you'll fill that out. When the next direct deposit comes in, we pay ourselves back. The consumer has the option to leave us an optional tip, which doesn't affect their eligibility for the service. It's completely optional.
I
Interviewer20:11
Banks that have cropped up in the US, we're nowhere close to that. How could you segment the population in different ways and provide them different services? There's opportunities for large companies. When I was growing up, I'll bring it back around. I'm going to say a little anecdote that's going to be sort of sweet and charming. When I was a kid growing up, my dad would read me this book about the Bernstein Bears, and they always do lessons about what you shouldn't do. So if someone is pitching you on a banking startup, what should they not do? What are the things they shouldn't do?
A
Angela Strange20:45
The expression I like to use a lot which answers your question is: the battle between incumbents and startups comes down to whether the incumbent can get innovation before the startup can get distribution. I think the mistakes...
Your hook that is either going to be compelling enough to get people to switch from Wells Fargo, B of A, or to apply for customers that aren't even thinking or totally don't trust the banking system. So really coming from this 'how do I acquire customers first' angle, and then layering on other types of products.
C
Chris21:27
You said that your customer acquisition costs are covered by the interchange, by the rev-share you're getting off the card transactions. It depends on how you are able to engage the consumer. In our case, we've got a lot of features that we very deliberately structured in a way where the feature would essentially unlock if you signed up for direct deposit. And then if you sign up for direct deposit, you tend to capture a good amount of spend naturally.
I
Interviewer22:10
What target segments...
C
Chris22:10
The team is spending dollars to try to convert that person. They're not doing a good job, because I'm not trying to change them. I'm trying to capture consumers who prefer to pay with debit cards. That's really been a secular trend that's happened over the last 15 years. If you look at the Visa/MasterCard data, there are more debit card transactions on a monthly basis than there are credit card transactions. If you look demographically, younger consumers overwhelmingly prefer to pay with debit cards. The reason for that is control. Particularly for people that live paycheck to paycheck, not the unbanked, just a normal person, they'll sacrifice the rewards they'd get on a Capital One card in order to just have better control by paying with a debit card. In our case, there's even more control because you're...
We could be profitable today, but we're spending money on acquisition dollars.
I
Interviewer23:17
What's your funding plan?
C
Chris23:21
We just raised, we announced a $200 million Series D. Not for a while, we're good. That was announced in March.
I
Interviewer23:36
If SoftBank wanted to throw another $500 million at you, would you take it?
C
Chris23:39
We talked to a lot of guys. All right, now I'm getting into journalism. Any questions instead of how-to questions? I was told not to do that by the bosses, the folks upstairs. So I think getting back to the notion of what might be most profitable for this audience...
A
Angela Strange24:11
Financial services, whether it's mortgages or insurance, or pick a thing that's a $10 billion business that still sucks. Technology person. We use the term 'fire financial services, insurance, and real estate,' which depending on your geography is up to 20% of GDP. Very large industries. If we stick to banking or financial services writ large, we could talk a lot about insurance and real estate. We talk about basic checking, which is still a very large opportunity. But if you look at the profile of Americans by category, there's a trillion dollars plus of credit card...
There were very well-intentioned trying to do more financial education, which is important. We would all be better off if we really understood the intricacies of the financial services world, but it's really complex and most of us have better things to do with our lives than study this in depth. What we're seeing now is this trend of how can we abstract away the complexity, almost automate those decisions. At a minimum, automate and surface to the level you need to pick A or B, and here are the very easy to understand in layman's terms consequences. Concrete example: Tally, which helps you get out of credit card debt. Most people who have credit card debt have credit card debt across four different cards. That's four different due dates. Nobody puts it on auto pay because they don't want to get spun into overdraft. Just think of the process management of this. You pay card A first or B first, how do you...
I
Interviewer26:11
Indefinitely. I think there's a lot more opportunities to do that in student debt, etc. Can you actually just give me five discrete opportunity sets that you see? Like Tally is around helping people manage getting out of debt, and debt is one. It doesn't have to be five, but two or three more.
A
Angela Strange26:36
I still think there's a lot in credit card debt. I think student debt we're just starting to tip the iceberg on. A challenge there has been most of student debt, as you know, is held by all of these student debt servicers, and that's where a lot of the information lies. So I think there's also an opportunity in the infrastructure layer. If Plaid has connected all the different banks and...
I
Interviewer27:10
What would you build? Maybe?
C
Chris27:17
Well, I would naturally do another FinTech company because that's what I'm good at. Right now, I'd be kind of cool around like a pizza shop or something. Really, I mean, you don't want to Max Levchin it up and go from PayPal to a firm or whatever and do a couple... well, I'd invest in one, I would not a games company in between. So maybe the pizza shop is it, gonna be a robotic one. All right, I'm sorry, I'm digressing.
I
Interviewer27:42
When you were starting your company, does geography matter at all? Should people think about what region they're going to launch in first because the regulatory environment can still be a little thorny in different states?
C
Chris28:10
All states. We very well... I mean, you were able to do that because you had a bank that was behind you as a partner. But let's say I met our consumer marketing plan was very much just a national audience. Is there any category for which geography matters?
A
Angela Strange28:26
I think you could decide. Let's say you have a new creative lending idea and you want to test it in the market before you go to the trouble to build a super robust infrastructure. I made this mistake at my startup ten years ago. We were ready for millions of users and built this amazing infrastructure, which was a waste. You want to build a shitty one and just focus on... so I think that is good advice that still applies today. Test it out. Maybe you want to get one state lending license before you do a big type partnership. Then you have this trade-off between speed, how quickly can you get the...
Although it might be easier to get a lending license in Arkansas, and then you can say... if you want speed, you win. I'm just not as large. Texas can still be pretty friendly. New York's regulators are pretty tough, so you might want to put that last. But those are some of the things you would consider if you want to just test the market before you build a robust infrastructure.
I
Interviewer29:30
Are there other hacks that can help you get to market faster, like acquiring a business that's already been operating for a certain amount of time, like 10 years, and then just taking them over so that you don't have to deal with certain permitting or regulatory sign-off? Someone in the financial services sector was telling me something like that, there's a way to make your business older faster so that you...
A
Angela Strange30:10
Then once you get it, the whole payment experience is crap also. So when you get into that space, you can sometimes accelerate your time if you buy a company already in the space. There's two things even beyond the licensing. It turns out to get mortgage right, it's not really a couple of things, it's like 400 different processes that you need to understand at a very deep level. So you're almost buying some of that institutional knowledge while you bring in your fresh thinking. Sometimes that can help accelerate.
I
Interviewer30:41
Interesting. I had a question and then I lost the question. It's somewhere in the ether, floating around. If you were to talk about insurance for a little bit, or do you consider that a different stream? The next...
A
Angela Strange31:11
Blockchain at least once in a FinTech panel, otherwise it's not a FinTech panel. But seriously, within insurance, where is it? Is it just across the board right now? The whole category is so broken that you can kind of pick whatever spot you want in it. There are so many opportunities. This is a $5 trillion industry worldwide where one in ten Fortune 500 companies is an insurance company, and every single one of them was started before World War II. This speaks to the opportunity, but it also speaks to how hard it is to build an insurance company. There's just a lot involved. Some of the opportunities, there's a similar almost sponsor bank model that goes on in insurance where you can become an MGA by partnering with an...
Pre-World War II, you didn't have nearly the amount of data that we have on all of you right now. So you can imagine how are you scoring risk, not in a very sophisticated kind of way. If you were going to revamp that based on all the tools, it would be completely different. Take a company called Health IQ, which does life insurance for health-conscious people. If I knew that all of you ran 50 miles a week, I would give you way better pricing than the standard data that your life insurance company is collecting. By having this better underwriting model, what it also enables, back to my customer acquisition drumbeat, is positive selection bias. You're bringing in the best customers, and then you're able to attract them at a cheaper rate because you can just be much more targeted. They target runners, they target vegans, all of these people that would be better risks.
I
Interviewer33:12
I know the answer to this already, but for them, would you look outside of the US to places like Latin America to invest in financial services opportunities there?
A
Angela Strange33:23
Yeah, arguably the opportunities for financial services outside the US can be even bigger. This is a combination of an even larger underbanked population and just fewer companies that are prosecuting those opportunities. How much capital have you deployed? We have a few companies down in Latin America. The chart that I often show, just giving a 101 in the space, if you look at credit card penetration, let's take Colombia for instance because I have an investment there. It's like 10%, 11%, 12%, which is reasonably high for many...
You can partner with someone, you can get up and running pretty quickly. The infrastructure in many other companies doesn't exist, so you have to build a lot of that yourself. I think there are two opportunities: a direct-to-consumer opportunity, but we're also starting to see more infrastructure companies coming into different countries.
I
Interviewer34:28
Getting back to banking for a second, another question from the audience: banking charter versus banking license, which one do you want? Is there a difference?
C
Chris34:37
If there is, I don't know. I mean, it's something to pursue. We could pursue a bank charter. Some FinTechs have decided to chart that path. We've decided to go down the partner path right now. Is there a difference between getting a banking charter versus a banking license? This is something I don't... I think in Europe it's...
A
Angela Strange35:11
A bank that is an opportunity, or that's an investable thesis. That is part of an investable thesis. Because I think you can, and there were a bunch of startups that were trying to do which were back to your purchase question. I'm going to buy a charter over there, and then we say great, what are you going to do with it? In severance, I would reverse that and say what you want to do is figure out why customers want to use you, get them using you, get them really sticky, and then are there things that you either can't do or do you want to improve your economics? Then go get a banking charter.
C
Chris35:44
I agree with that. I know there's companies in our space who are just like, 'We are gonna get a bank charter, we're getting a bank.' I was like, but to solve what problem? Who is the segment you're serving with what features and products?
I
Interviewer36:13
Interest rates are basically zero, so it's kind of a moot question, it doesn't really matter. But let's say interest rates actually improve to the point where you can have a savings account and it generates interest, and it's a meaningful amount of money. Will you be able to offer that kind of service at some point, or for that you would need a banking charter? Or can you do that through partnership?
C
Chris36:33
We do that through the partnership. Yeah, I mean, that's sort of a dime a dozen these days. Every startup has high interest savings.
I
Interviewer36:42
Good to know. I should not be working with HSBC, right? You could be getting 2% right now versus 0.01%. HSBC is the worst. Have you heard of Chime? New customer right now. But what about my black Amex card? That's really...
C
Chris37:10
Problems. I can't. Well, they're here for you, not me.
I
Interviewer37:16
How do you attract... did you get that question? Literally, really? Well, because you want to do stuff that's fair. It's like, what if someone doesn't have friends? Give them some free stuff. Sorry, how do you attract traditionally unbanked populations to digital banking? What do you do? Is it the perks?
C
Chris37:38
It's hard. I've seen a lot of companies try this over the years. The challenge is one, you've got a huge mistrust. And then two, you have to make the economics work for a customer who could be a really good customer but they're not going to spend several thousand dollars a month.
And then looking down at the grocery basket being like, 'Oh, do I not buy bananas for my family today?' That's a horrifying experience. Great place to get customers with a better product. What are some of those emotional touch points in someone's lives where you can come in versus 'Hey, we're another lower fee card that everybody's advertising and we might be better, but I don't know how to trust you because I'm bombarded with all sorts of payday loan offers and fine print that I don't trust.'
I
Interviewer38:40
Is there a point at which startups should start talking to regulators, or do they not need to worry about the regulatory environment? You're both nodding. It's a profound question.
C
Chris38:50
We talked to regulators all the time. At what point do those communications need to start? If you're...
The regulators. But over time, as we've scaled, we've had conversations. We regularly speak with the CFPB, we've met with the chairwoman of the FDIC. We do have a lot of interaction. They're certainly aware of some of the noise we're making in this category. But if you're creating a product that actually is in the best interest of consumers, it doesn't rely on fee income. They love us. We're a case study on ways to do financial services and banking in a way that actually helps consumers.
I
Interviewer39:47
Would it be a threat to your industry if a Democrat was elected president?
C
Chris39:53
Wouldn't... I think the economics would be worse. And what I...
A
Angela Strange40:12
Provide fair access to financial services for everyone. There is a storyline that is very cross-party in this industry.
I
Interviewer40:20
I think I've done the impossible. We've gone over 40 minutes in a discussion about financial services in the afternoon. I appreciate all of y'all for coming out and paying attention. Thank you so much. This was really fun. It was really great. Thank you.