The three of you — your father has told the world — are going to be responsible for figuring out what to do with all the money that he has built up in Berkshire over the last 60 years.
What did you think when he started telling you that, when he started getting to you guys? When did he come to you? What did he tell you? What were your thoughts?
I thought, well, we better get along. [laughter]
Two years ago. A little over two years ago.
Yeah. What — how did — what I — I don't know exactly.
You sort of started talking about it.
Yeah. I don't even remember.
It was probably March-ish two years ago. So whatever. Yeah.
Yeah. And you know, just the idea of wow, you tap dance to work every day for 60 years and then boom, you're gonna — there you go. Yeah. [laughter] Exactly. And I don't really remember that it was like some big announcement to us. He just sort of started talking about it.
There were hints kind of as we went through the wills at certain — I mean, some of it evolved and then he just kind of decided. But I think there was a little bit of, you know, telegraphing of some of it — not exactly what form or how it would happen — but because we went through, you know, when he would do a new will, we would sit down and he would say, you know, do you have any questions or ideas or, you know, whatever. He became really pretty open about discussing that like at least 10 or 12 years ago. Yeah, he's been very open about it because he's, you know, the will's gone through a few iterations over the years and he's always been really open about talking about it and, you know, if we have any questions. And I mean, I always have little notes written all around the — [laughter]
I mean, he's been open about telling the world that, too, that he thinks it's the right way. Yeah, that's the right way to do it. Especially when your kids are older, you don't want to leave questions afterwards and you don't want them wondering why you did things.
As soon as he did that, all my kids called me and said, 'When do we have a meeting?' [laughter] No, I'm kidding. But —
But again, the big thing is he amassed this wealth. And so to not be left with a sense of this is what I'd like to see happen with it. I mean, he thinks things through so thoroughly — from the time he was in his 20s writing a friend saying, 'I know I'm going to be wealthy and I don't want my kids to be,' you know, he's known for forecasting what's coming. I mean, duh, in terms of the work he does every day, but really thinking it through. And so to put this out there without giving us any explicit instructions — he's given us some sense of what he would like to see happen in an abstract sense, but there's never been — and that, you know, again, frankly, that's a little bit, gee, I wish we could have a little more guidance because it's your money, you know, it's not ours.
Yeah. But that's consistent even in some of the things over the years with Berkshire because he knows things are going to change, right? And he can't predict. Yeah, he can. And so, you know, he provides what he feels confident will make sense at the time, or at least thinks will make sense at the time, but not, you know, not try to predict it, not try to —
That's — yeah. He said years ago when he's talked about just about the foundation work, he has said, you know, and this is way before there was as much money as there is now. And he has said, you know, this is what I think matters now. My mother obviously was also clear about that. But he's also always said, I don't know if that'll be true in 20 years after I'm dead or 10 years after I'm dead or whatever. And so he's always, I think, not wanted to constrain us with, you know, here's what you have to spend it on, right? Because he would say that may not matter and then something else will matter more.
So what guidance has he given you?
The only thing I've heard is what he's also said publicly, really, which is he hopes that the money can go to people — you know, what word do you use? Less fortunate, you know, below the poverty line, you know, whatever it is — that it would in some way affect a population that normally doesn't have the same kinds of opportunities that certainly we have and a lot of people don't have. That's all.
Yeah. The biggest challenge will be balancing the fact — but he has provided, when I say this, he's provided some cushion on this — but you know, balancing the fact that he wants to see this money spent in 10 years, more or less, and then balancing that with how you lose control over Berkshire voting shares. I mean, that's the big balancing act. Yeah. That's, you know, and you can't figure that out until you're in that moment and as some time starts to go by because the dynamics change. There's going to be things that happen that no one on that board, none of us can try to anticipate. Even we can anticipate some things. Some things will be obvious and others won't be so obvious and you don't know who they are, you know what they're after. So, you know, that could affect how fast you want to lose or give up, right? Um, you know, voting power, right? And it feels like you have a little flexibility on that count too, just as — it has gotten more flexible. Yeah. Um, fortunately.
What did you think when he said that you three were going to be doing this, doing it together? It had to be unanimous and you're in charge of all of it. Did you want the job?
Peter really didn't want —
I did not want it. And I made that clear. Yeah. Yeah. [clears throat] Peter — and honestly, when I called him up and said, you know, I want to opt out, he said, I don't blame you.
Yeah. You know, we'd say that to all of us. [laughter] He actually thinks it's kind of funny that we have to do this. Yeah. And understands that it'll put us — obviously enormous pressure on us. And so the idea again, like we've been saying around, what are we going to do? It's like there's too many variables. We have no idea what we're going to do in this moment. And that's great that we all know and agree that we can't start saying this, that this — [laughter] is — yeah.
Yeah. I think for me as a parent and an outsider watching this, the vote of confidence in the three of you, how much he trusts you, is the thing that kind of jumped out the most. Does that hit you, too?
Yes. And it's very nice. I mean, you know, really it is — it's a huge, giant compliment. I think that none of us — you know, so we have a very different view of it growing up in the environment that we grew up with and how we see, you know, my dad now versus how we used to see my mom. So I think, you know, for us, in a way it's a surprise and in a way it's not a surprise. So he knows 100% that we are going to try to execute exactly what he asks us to do and then he knows that we've had a lot of experience now understanding how to figure out the things that we don't know today and how to do those efficiently and effectively in the future. So, you know, to me, in one way, because of how we grew up and the things that we listened to forever from him, it was a surprise.
Yeah. And then in another way it's like, I don't know, he gave us this opportunity for several decades now to figure out how you give money away, how you do it effectively, how you do it efficiently, and how to make those decisions. So in that regard, you know, I would say it's not a surprise because he kind of began preparing us for it.
And I would just add the other part of this, I think, is that he knows nobody can do it certainly perfectly and nobody — so the only reason why he lets me do it. [laughter] I mean, there is the element of, okay, nobody's going to do this. Yeah. This is unfathomable what we will be charged with. And why not us, who's closer to the source and has grown up in all the things. So, but when — yeah, there's an element of it's a beautiful gesture and it's a convenient gesture to some. And he would say that, you know, and okay, yeah, but when you start trying to write 200 and 300 million dollar checks, you know, only institutions can absorb those or governments. And I'm not a big fan of writing checks to institutions or governments. So in some ways, we're going to have to make some decisions that we typically wouldn't make, but we have to make sure that the money's used and used as well as it can be used. So we'll be making decisions that we typically wouldn't have made today sitting here, and we'll make some mistakes.
I do that all the time. [laughter]
Well, when you say that you don't typically like to write those checks to governments or institutions, is that because of the bureaucracy involved, like your dad's always talked about, or is it other —
I don't trust them that much to make good judgments or where they have big overheads or —
And governments change. And, you know, in every grant we give, even to every organization that we give to, we have a key person clause in it, you know. And we even write the grant letter that we can terminate any grant at any time for any reason, you know, because you just don't know what's going to happen. Now, we also work in a lot of places where things can happen quickly that, you know, you wouldn't expect, you know, I mean, in terms of eastern Congo or something. So you want — you need the flexibility. But still, that's how we operate, is how I think. And, you know, we have done some things with governments, but in those cases we have put in a lot of extra controls. And we did something with the Uganda government one time where I thought, this is a little crazy, but if we don't do it, no one else is going to do it. It was to finish a peace process. And so we had a full-time accountant — like every day it was his job to see what was happening. And I feel like it came out well. But, you know, it's not where I would typically go to look to give money.
You each have had a different philanthropic path. And you've been doing this again for decades, working on this. Why don't you each talk a little bit about what matters to you and how you just started with that — some of the areas, going to war zones, going and looking at agriculture. What drives you? What are you interested in?
Well, I think part of what drives me is just learning. And for me to really learn, I have to see it. And it doesn't mean I can't read a book and learn something, but it just — you know, I've been to Africa 97 times, and the 98th time that I go to Africa, I'll learn something, you know. Yeah. [laughter] No, but I mean, it's just, you know, every time you put yourself in a dynamic environment, you see things, you get to ask different people questions, you learn things. I mean, you just — So for me, you know, I look — first we start out saying we're going to try to focus on the most disenfranchised populations that we can. So that puts us in places like Africa, right? And in some places in Latin America and whatever. And then it puts you — if you really want to go that direction — it puts you in conflict and post-conflict areas. So that's where we focused. And I have — right or wrong — I've always had this attitude that in the United States, if we have the political will, we have the ability to solve the problem. We have a system that can do it. Doesn't always work that great, but it can work. We should have the financing mechanism, we have rule of law. So we should have the ingredients in the United States to solve any problem that we have in this country. That is absolutely not true in some other countries. And so that's why I've focused in those areas. They're the toughest areas to work. But I also, you know, I love going to those places and I love being there.
This was predictable when you were about four, [laughter] right?
Exactly. Yeah. And I think all of the way we approach it was predictable when we were about four. Yeah. In a way. I mean, I think probably lives are predictable when you look at what happened between, you know —
An extension of our personalities in a way. Yeah. Definitely.
Yeah. So what was your personality in the extension, Peter, that brought you?
Well, I mean, first to this point, really, I —
I want to hear this answer. [laughter]
I think of philanthropy — I think philanthropy is applied philosophy. Like, how you look at the world is how you're going to move resources into it. That's kind of obvious, but I don't think that that clear realization that it's really just applied philosophy — it's what your worldview is and then how you put it into things. And so I certainly remember, as I'm sure we all do, going around with my mom in North Omaha and visiting with people. And I'd come home sitting at this — people around this table, right? I would sit at this table at lunchtime in elementary school and there would be somebody with my mom that didn't look like us. And I would really sit there and recognize that my mom realized — and this is to your point, really — my mom realized everyone has something to teach. And so if you listen, you can learn. And then with philanthropy, if you learn, you can then apply it based on the relationship. And so, strangely enough, and I think this applies to all three of us, but when Howie describes what he's doing, I do the same thing for the same reason in terms of I have to know the place. Like, I went to Sierra Leone and Liberia and a few places, Bangladesh, saw where the T-shirts come from. It's overwhelming to think that, you know, at first when we got the foundation, like, we can change the world. It's like — [laughter] not gonna happen. And so I slowly retracted. We tried things. We, you know, and I'm sure some were effective, but I had to be in a place where I could be there essentially every day. And so every Sunday I sit with a woman in Midtown Kingston for hours — New York. Kingston, New York. Exactly. And we have a laundromat. We have these things. Now, we're doing work other places as well, but to be in place and see how complicated just that little teeny corner is — again, I'm sure Susie sees it all the time here. It's like, oh my god, first of all, everybody's related to everybody else and there's so much generational stuff and there's so much — but I'm sort of drawn, I think, the same way Howie is. He's out here and I'm in here, but we're motivated by, I think, a lot of the same things.
Susie, you kind of picked up where your mom left off in Omaha and this has been your place along with early childhood development, too. So how did you come to that path? Because you weren't always in Omaha. You traveled all over the place.
No, I was in California and DC and then I ended up back here in '88. And I honestly thought I would move back to DC when my kids got out of high school. And then my mother died, so I didn't move. And that really — that's why I'm here, is that I'm pretty sure I would have moved otherwise, really. I love Washington. I still miss Washington. But —
So [laughter] I wasn't going to say that, Howie, but I know —
Uh oh. But so anyway, when we got the first money, which was 2000 — yeah. And it was either 30 or 50. You guys may remember this. 30 or 50 million.
It was 50 million that went down in price. It was 35.
Okay. Because the stock went down.
Well, we got one chunk then and then I think on mom's birthday or something, she added another —
That's right. Right. Yeah. piece. Anyway, at that time the thing I wanted to focus on was K through 12 public education, which we heard plenty about when we were kids growing up. And my dad's always said if he could make one amendment to the US Constitution, it would be that there would be no more private schools. And because the people with the voice and the power opt out of the public schools. And so I went to the superintendent actually at the time, who was a wonderful person, and said, I have this money. This guy could have really basically gotten probably all the money at that point and he said, don't give it to me. He said, find out who's doing the best work in high-quality birth to five for the poorest kids. Do that. He said, we need these kids to come into kindergarten prepared. That will change the K through 12 system. And I still believe that's true. So we started working in early childhood. And that was how that started. We went off to actually Chicago and found the first Educare center. Peter and Jennifer built an Educare center in Milwaukee. And that's where I was focused for quite a while. And still that's our single biggest grant is to now a separate C3, the Buffett Early Childhood Fund, and they do all the early childhood work. But then we got more money and staying here in Omaha but also Nebraska. We're starting to do work all over the state and still with, you know, a focus on poverty, poverty alleviation, social issues, social justice. And that's almost all of the money at this point still stays in Nebraska. And that's, you know, it is kind of an extension of my mother's work because we do a fair amount of work in North Omaha and also in other places now too.
You three obviously have a common upbringing. You understand each other and agree on a lot of things, but you have areas where you don't agree too. I would say you're not always in sync on politics and other things, too.
We'll find out, won't we? [laughter] Nothing like a little pressure.
Yeah. I mean, we're probably not in sync on politics. Peter and I are probably more in sync on the politics.
But not that far. I don't think — I think he's kind of come around. [laughter]
Maybe. This is where we're getting into hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil idea.
Well, [laughter] I mean, it's just interesting the way your dad set this up that it has to be a unanimous vote, that everybody has to agree. I mean, it's kind of brilliant, but it's also kind of like, oh my gosh. Yeah. How do we —
I don't think that'll be a problem, though.
No. And I really don't because there, you know, social media when that first came out, I'll tell you, oh my god, there's going to be — I'm thinking you're telling us more about your childhood [laughter] than you are about ours. So there's — I — you know, and we'll make some trade-offs with each other.
Yeah. I mean, there's so much money. I mean, getting in a fight about it seems ridiculous.
Crazy, right? So I mean —
Yeah, when you think about how if you, you know, let's just say it's 150 billion a day, just to pick a round number, you know, roughly —
It's not really 15 billion a year, it's more than that because —
Because it keeps growing and compounding.
Yeah, I mean, and you know, so depending on how fast it grows. So, you know, it's something that actually from private philanthropy, it's something nobody's probably really done and certainly not as a family and three kids that are doing it together. So it'll be a new experience. [laughter] I'll put it that way.
Yeah. And again, you know, pop culture has Succession or, you know, these various shows that show all this stuff and that's what people love to feed on. It's like, where's the problem going to be and all that. And we have had no trappings of any of that growing up. So we're just not — it's — we're not that —
We grew up expecting nothing, to be honest. I mean, to put it simply — not to — but I mean, you know, we were told that we had to figure our own stuff out and we were allowed to fail and make mistakes and then we understood the consequences. And so I think Peter's really right on this that, you know, you watch the show —
Yeah, I think you're right. [laughter] Yeah, you won't hear it again. But, you know, it's like watching the show Dallas or something. I mean, that's been out there for a long time, but, you know, all this stuff. And it's like we don't have any of that drama. We don't have any of that. I mean, it's just not like — it just doesn't happen. And so I think people have this false — well, not everyone, but, you know, some people have this false impression of what our family's like. I think most people probably have a false impression of what our family's like. And so that would then, you know, it would extrapolate that into this whole idea that we're going to give away all this money. How the hell are we going to get along and do that? And I just don't think it's going to be hard. You know, my dad wasn't rich and famous when we were kids. We did not grow up like people probably think we grew up —
But how did you grow up? Describe it.
Around this table. Normal. [laughter]
Yeah. I mean, we grew up, you know, we were certainly very fortunate. We didn't need anything. But, you know, we went to public school. We lived in a regular neighborhood. We hung out with our friends. We didn't — with the exception of a deal Howie made with my dad — but we didn't get cars when we turned 16. I rode the bus to school, you know, until — yeah, until I got out of high school. We didn't — we just grew up in what I would call sort of a normal middle class, on the upper side of middle class, but we weren't living in the rich neighborhood. We weren't — it was pretty normal.
You didn't even know what your dad did at one point.
None of us really have the story. [laughter] Yeah.
Yeah. Well, that was in first grade when we had to fill out those census cards, or second grade, and I wrote — my mother told me to write security analyst and I thought he checked burglar alarms. [laughter] So there's that. And then in my career, most people thought I was related to Jimmy Buffett. You know, nobody knows anymore.
Yeah. But, you know, we used to — I mean, not that there's any big deal, but, you know, we earned this allowance for, you know, cleaning out gutters and cutting the lawn and raking leaves and stuff. But Warren got pretty clever and he started giving it to us in quarters and then he bought a slot machine.
Yeah. [laughter] Dimes, dimes at first. Yeah. And then he bought it all back every time.
Yeah. And then he bought the slot machine. So he would get most of his allowance back. At least with me, he got a lot of it back. But I mean —
We were all up there. The neighbor kids would bring their dimes over.
Yeah. Yeah. You probably get three watermelons when you pulled the lever. Yeah.
So teaching you about gambling along the way, too, right?
Well, but [laughter] we never did. I mean, I'm about the most anti-gambling person there is. We, you know —
Because you lost all your dimes, right? [laughter]
We all had jobs, too, when we were — you know, it was pretty — it was pretty normal, which I'm grateful for now.
And, you know, so I don't know. I don't —
I mean, it was normal, but we certainly had everything we needed. Yeah.
We knew we could go to college and didn't have to.
I'm not trying to make it sound like it was hard.
Yeah. I mean, yeah. We never had a very tough day in our life in terms of getting through, you know. But still, it's not what most people would perceive at all because — and I think Susie made this point that, you know, we weren't — my dad wasn't rich growing up.
Yeah. You know, I mean, when we grew up, he was driving a Volkswagen for a while. Then he had to start picking — yeah, he started having to pick business associates up at the airport. So, you know, he upgraded to, you know, a Cadillac. But, you know, I mean, it was only because he had to. It wasn't because he wanted a Cadillac. He didn't care what car he drove.
Yeah. And my mom used to drive — gosh, she would take me to my after-school stuff in Uncle Freddy's old beat-up station wagon and I was so embarrassed because it was so — it was like it was going to break down any time. But, you know, I think she did it to prove a point to me. Like, it just doesn't matter what you show up in. [laughter] I mean, you know, so I got over it. But I mean, it was like —
What do you think that did to all of you? I would imagine at the time you may not have been super appreciative of it, but what impact did that have on who you are today?
Well, one thing I think that had really a huge impact was just my living in the house with my mother in general. Yeah. You know, she was so active, particularly in the North Omaha community, but she was very active in the volunteer things she did. Also, Planned Parenthood. She was president of Planned Parenthood. And she just — and she lived it. She didn't just write the check, she lived it. And she took us with her.
She was on that panel of American women.
And, you know, I used to go with her sometimes several nights a week to go sit and listen to her talk on this panel. And the panel was a black woman, a Jewish woman, a Catholic woman, and as my mother would say, a WASP. And she was the WASP. And this is in the '60s. So the black women had a story really to tell because it was not that far out —
