PM Rama Speaks to Foreign Journalists on Protests, Zvërnec and Albania’s Development.

Hello. So, welcome. Are you all set? We are ready to start, or are we waiting for someone else? We're ready to start. Okay. I was told that I had to meet a group of journalists from Europe, right? Well, I'm here. There should be another microphone that you can use as a gun to kill me. So, please take it. And I'm open to every question.

Break the ice. Give the microphone, please. Yeah, there is a microphone.

Listen, first of all, this is a free country. I have been in protests myself and I know the taste of having difficulties to protest. I know even the taste of blood when a protest happens in a non-free environment. In this boulevard, not a century ago, but only less than 20 years ago, or exactly in 2011, four protesters have been killed with assault guns that were aiming at them from this building. So to me it's a different era. It's a different moment in history. And it's really a very good thing to see that people can protest with no problem. Although it may look the most trivial thing, but it's not. It's another achievement of this decade. An achievement that Albanians fought for for a long time, not only during communism, but also after.

So, this is number one. Number two, this protest has been provoked by a despicable act of violence of a security guard against the protester at the border of the site. We are talking about since weeks now, or maybe since a bit more than a week, and about which we took the fastest and the harshest measures. The guard has been arrested. The head of police of Laura has been discharged. The police unit that was on site and didn't intervene immediately to stop the guard to do that despicable thing has been put under investigation. The security company has had its license lifted to be a security company. So this we did.

And then of course the act of violence that kind of fueled the sentiment through the video that became viral created, kind of opened the path for more, for raising questions about the development, raising questions about the property, raising questions about the project. And then suddenly the subject became broader, became broader and now touches everything, which is okay. We are not anymore in the dynamic of a protest of some people or many people, whatever you may call it, although I have seen reports about 100,000 which are quite ridiculous, but it doesn't matter. I don't want to talk about numbers, although the numbers are to me quite modest, but I want to talk about substance.

So the thing changed because suddenly there is no project. So the protest became massive with chant: cancel the project, cancel the project. And I said, okay, I can cancel it immediately. Show me the project. There is no project. And it's not about me, it's not about Albania, it's about the democratic societies to reflect upon how half-truths can become bigger and bigger lies by hour and by hour and by hour and can inflate a whole environment that is not anymore an environment within some borders but it's an environment of all over the platforms. While we are not anymore in the substance, we are somewhere else. As you said, there are all kinds of things being said which are legitimate for people that want to say them or want to believe them, but they have nothing to do with me and with us. So I don't know if I answered properly the question, but I'm sure that others want to ask and I will try to complete. Yeah, please give the microphone.

Because Balan inside, whatever it's called, is lying. It's very simple. And this is not about who says what to whom. This is about who proves what. It's a different thing. So it's not about... I'm not here to tell lies and I'm not here to get lies. If someone says there is a building permission, it should show the building permission. On the contrary, if you ask me and if you are interested in facts, I can tell you that there is a process. Yes, there is a company. Yes, there is a company. For sure, there is a company. What does it mean? If there is a company, it does not mean that there is a project. It's a company. It's an expression of interest. It is a process that started with authorities. It's a private property, to make it very clear, because it's so unsettling when you go through all this endless chain of posts and you see things that are so inaccurate and so both disgusting. If I was not in this position and if I was not fully aware of the facts, I would be disgusted to see that my government, my prime minister is selling an island without even showing me why and what will happen. Of course, I'll be disgusted. But is it true?

Number one. Number two, Zet and the island are two different projects. It's not the same project. What does it mean all the time publishing and retweeting and redistributing the island, the protesters, the fence, this, that, to create something that is totally disgusting if you see it from the angle of the one that is not in the boulevard, but also is in Austria or is in America. And to project this image of Albania like a banana republic where islands are sold to oligarchs like this and when the country is sold because there is a prime minister there that is serving the oligarch. What is this? If this is true, it's disgusting, but is it true? This is my question. So you think that you have brought facts here that prove the contrary of what I'm saying? No, you didn't. The company is created. The expression of interest is there. The agreement is private. It's how every democratic country develops. I don't know a country in the democratic realm that can prevent privates from having their agreements. If you know one, tell me. I don't know a country where the government or the agencies are proactive and going and telling the privates don't dare to do agreements. I knew a country where privates were not allowed to be privates and where foreigners were all enemies and were all bad influence. I knew, I fought against it and thanks God we won over it.

It's a fence, my dear. Every private owner in this country has the right to ask permission to build a fence, to put a fence to his property. Every private owner in this country fighting against fences of private ownerships. What is this? And when you have a process like this and when you have a back and forth with the authorities about a project and we have protocols that prove the exact contrary. We have protocols that prove that this country works like a European country. We have protocols that prove by written that the investors have been told many things about the vulnerability of the area, about the distance the development should keep from the lagoon, about this and that and that, about the parameters, about the intensity, about this and that. What do you think? What do you think? When I say what do you think, I'm not addressing you personally. I'm saying what is this? And how one can find a way to make the truth be seen and to make the truth be heard. You know, I said day one. I said day one. I said day two and then I gave up because I realized it's not anymore about environment. It's not anymore about anything else but about the sense that it's time for us to take over. Good luck with that. But I told since day one whoever is interested to talk about this, it's welcome here and I'm here to talk about the project, to talk about the environment, to talk about the parameters, to talk about what we want to do, to talk about what we have done so far, to be shown the facts, the papers, the path, everything to be shown. What about the law on environment? What about all this completely untruthful information that we changed the law to make this happen? This is a lie and I'm ready to prove it with facts. But how do you prove facts in this world? It's of course very... Yeah. So give it to her. She wants to debate with me. I love it because... And the answer, you know, the answer was no, we don't talk, we don't listen, you have to resign. Wow. Give it to her again because she has something to say.

You said it's not... No. Look at me. Don't look at the camera. I was thinking that's why... No, I was thinking you were watching there. Look at me. I'm not intimidated. You said that it's not about the environment, but I've been on the streets yesterday interviewing some people and there was... Listen, you are here with me talking with me, asking me, wanting to know what I think. What you have done in the streets is not of my interest. And what you have listened in the streets, it's for your information, of course. But you are asking me and I'm not in the street. I'm not someone with no responsibility when I talk because I represent this country. I represent the people that elected me to be here. And in front of you, I have to be truthful. I have to be factual. And I cannot be challenged by what you heard in the street. So, do you have facts to show me that prove that I'm saying something that is not right? Show me.

No, this is an absolutely legitimate question and this opens for an absolutely challenging and very, very important discussion. Yes. But what is wrong is a presumption that a country has to choose between nature and development. This is ideology. This is not what the best practices of this world tell. The country has to smartly find ways to make sure that nature and development coexist and don't go against each other. Of course, there have been very unpleasant things to nature in the path of development in this country. But you have to understand that a lot of it is objectively impossible to be erased from why it happened. Albania got out from communism as the poorest country in Europe, not compared to your countries, but compared even to the former communist countries, got out as the most isolated country. We were isolated from both west and east. We were told that both are two sides of the same coin, degenerated, corrupt. We were for 50 years obliged to live in a country where there was no private property in any shape or form. Do you want to... are you interested in the answer or no? Thank you. In any shape or form. In the former communist Europe, people had their cars. Here there was no private car. Albania had buses, bicycles, trains, and only official cars. In total, 5,000 cars. We had no titles of property, just for you to know. We had houses inherited from the past but there's not such a thing in Albania like cadastre. So we were told everything is ours but nothing was of an individual. So that's why I want to take it long, the pendulum of the 90s went on the other extreme. And that's why in Albania we saw things that today everyone regrets. We saw plantations, endless plantations of oranges and lemons and mandarins that were built by all of us, used like slaves to make terraces in the mountains because we didn't have enough arable land. But we had to fight the world as the only communist country against everyone and we had to produce our bread here. So we had to create arable land even in the mountains and we were used like slaves and all these plantations were burnt in the outburst that came after the fall of the regime. We dismantled the railways. We burned schools. We burned kindergartens. It was a whole outrage. It was not a population of barbarians, but was a population of slaves that found freedom and were terrified that the enemy might come back. And as every time when you get rid of an enemy beyond the bridge, you blow the bridge which you will need yourself when the enemy is gone. Albanians did that. You see, you come to Tirana here and you see a green city. There was no more green. I proudly say that talking about environment that 90% of the trees you see in the streets of Tirana were planted when I was mayor. Every green space you see was occupied only from the riverland. We removed 132,000 tons of concrete by demolishing illegal buildings. And this is just a background to tell you that in the coast when Albanians started to dream about their house, about their holidays, our holidays were made in barracks like soldiers. We had the timings of holidays and we were sent like soldiers in the barracks with our families and the barracks were made of the cheapest wood with a punch you could get your hand out of the wall of your barrack. So Albanians started to dream about going and having their own holidays and they started to build and the buildings of that time of course are ugly. Of course, a lot of pine trees were cut to build a lot. A whole strip. It was a great mistake. But it was a mistake of a moment in history when you couldn't ask more. We didn't even know how to ask more. Look at Calabria. Look at other realities in Europe how they destroyed because there were peers in history. So this background serves to tell you, yes Albanians, so the question is legitimate. Why? Why? The answer is very simple. Look at Montenegro. Montenegro has no agriculture. Most of what Montenegrins consume are coming from the region and are coming from Albania. They don't have agriculture. They don't have factories. They don't have anything else but tourism. Then how comes that they have since years the highest wages, the highest pensions in this region? Because of bringing the tourism in the level of luxury. And I don't... it's few things that I can compare in their stupidity than the opposition to the luxury resorts as something against the people. This is one of the most stupid things one can fuel because it's the contrary. It's the contrary. What one tourist brings in a luxury resort is more in terms of income for the country and is far less in terms of stress for traffic, for pollution and so on. So high-end tourism is what protects a country from what the mass tourism can bring because the mass tourism has been a great ambassador of Albania, has been spreading all over the world the voice that we were not the gloomy place where you could be robbed or raped and you could be killed and there is mafia and there is drugs and there is corruption and all this. No, it's a great country where you can have holidays but we can't keep going like that. We need to have high-end to change the scale of income for the country and to lower the pressure of mass tourism on environment. You talk about environment, it's good, but let's talk about environment. Flamingos, you know, when flamingos started to come back in Albania, they were not there. When I came to government, when we came to government, they were not there. You know why? Because Albania was the wildest spot of illegal hunting and we lost a lot of our wildlife because of illegal hunting and flamingos started to come back together with the pelican and others. After a few years after we put a moratorium in Albania, hunting became illegal for 10 years. We put a moratorium, cutting forest in Albania was illegal for 10 years. There was no more licenses to cut forest in Albania. 10 years. And look from the satellite images where the country was and where it is today. And look from the registers the wildlife in Albania where it was and where it is today. So these are facts. These are not things I say and you cannot verify. I know I'm not sexy. I'm not a protester making joyful the soul of all the ideologists all over the world. How tiny Albania is resisting oligarchs. How tiny Albania is becoming a shining city on the hill. We were a shining city on the hill for 50 years. We know how it sounds, how it looks, how it feels. But the facts are facts. So nobody can lecture me and us about environment because we have created the first law, the first map of protected areas in Albania in 2017 and the first register and the first inventory. And just for you to know, we found Albania with less than 15% of protected areas and today we have close to 25%. It's one of the countries with the largest surface of protected areas. And then we have to hear that we, the socialist party of Albanian government with a very, very clear agenda on environment, we are the danger and we have changed the law to make room for Jared Kushner to destroy our coast. What are you talking about? This is a lie. In 2024, we have made changes to specify what is allowed and what not in the different categories of protection. There is not one category of protection in the European standards. There are several categories of protection. There is category one, no touch. No touch. Just preserve, just take care. There is two, there is three. That area has always been category five. Has nothing to do with Viosa and with Viosa Narta is a lie. Viosa Narta, the delta of the Viosa River, of the park is protected, is untouchable. It's not being touched. It will not be touched. This is a protected landscape. Protected landscape. And protected landscape is based on the standard and on the definition of the whole EU, an area where you can build, there can be cities that are protected landscape. And what about if I tell you one of the things that is a condition for the project is to have more green after than before. How do you feel about it? What about I tell you that we are working with the greatest landscape architects, the greatest urban architects and the greatest environmental engineers. It's a very large team working on that and this project will be another proof, if not the best proof yet. This is what we aim. But another proof that nature and development, nature cannot be the curse for the well-being of the people. All right. If Albania wants to grow its GDP, we want to bring our GDP. We started with less than 10 billion when I became prime minister. We are today a bit above the 27 billion. In 2030, we want to go to 35 billion and we are not going to make it through carbonization. By the way, just for your knowledge, for anyone that doesn't know, we are 100% renewable in Albania. You know it, 100% renewable. We don't have fossil fuel energy, we don't have gas producing energy. We have 100% renewable hydro, solar and some wind starting. And do you know that in 2028, end of 2028, Albania will be net exporter of green energy, net exporter. We will not need anymore to import energy from anyone. You know that. I'm sure you don't and you are not obliged to know. The reason why the world is so excited about it is because of Donald Trump, because I don't think that the flamingos in Albania would have created such an incredible fuss if it was not an occasion to go after Donald Trump. But this has nothing to do with Donald Trump. When Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump came here, it was not clear if Donald Trump would go to jail or go back to the White House. And to me, they were American investors asking if they could have a chance in Albania. They were not the family of Donald Trump because as I said, Donald Trump could have gone to jail. He was under many indictments at that time. But it was not for me to do so. And guess what? I am from one side, I am always the Soros guy. From the other side now I am the Kushner guy. Find who I am. I'm the prime minister of Albania that I want everyone to come and to invest here and I want everyone to be friend of this country and I don't think Albania should be fuel for political fights in America or elsewhere. This is my take on it and I want the project and every project to be judged based on facts and the answer to the guy will be given by the project. If the project will give the answer, the project will go ahead. If the project will not give the answer, the project will have to improve. But 25% more, close to 25% more of nature, of green, of regeneration will be brought by the project because these are lines, these are goals we have. So whoever takes me for granted is wrong. I have never woke up a day in my life thinking about how to do something ugly. I've always believed that beauty is what we need. And I've always fought for beauty. Always successful? No. No. But today, Albania is the place, and I challenge you with facts, where the largest number of the best architects of the world are working together, separated, but for a project. This kind of concentration you can't find in any place in Europe. Why? Because we want beauty. We want quality. We want things to happen that change forever this country and not just the perception of this country which has been unjustly built based on the whole bad things, corruption, crime, drugs. All of that is part of it as is part of all countries but brought out of proportion like the port of Antwerp, the port of Rotterdam, the port of Barcelona, the port of Marseilles are all in Albania. One of these ports circulates more drugs than the whole GDP of Albania. These are the truths. So the question is if I am a guy doing politics, if I'm a guy hoping and trying to serve my country in the capacity of prime minister, I am necessarily someone to be suspect, someone to be treated like a low life in front of whomever is in front of my building asking things that are legitimate. So it makes them morally more respectable than me. Why? Why? Because every politician is a thief. Because everyone is corrupt. Because the honesty and the virginity and the greenery is in the streets and in the buildings in the institutions where all the tough things are dealt with, where all the difficult decisions are made. It's just crooks, thieves, and corrupt people. It's too easy. It's too easy. And you are not coming from Facebook. You are not coming from Instagram. You are coming from places that still believe in journalism, that still believe, I hope, in truth. And you should still believe in facts because how can we deal with this ocean of lies that get bigger and bigger and bigger and guess what, half-truths have the potential to be the biggest lies because there is something true in it. But you add and that and that and that and every day it's sick, it's corroding the democratic world, it's turning upside down everything we believed in. So this is my... and just understand one thing. You are getting all this only for one reason. You are talking to the wrong person in the wrong place in the wrong time because you came after seven days of that has been flowing the world and of the powerlessness to look and to feel all these lies and to not be able to pass a simple fact, two simple facts, three simple facts. I say there is no project and the comment of a big media outlet, but this protester says there is a project. What is this? Prime Minister Rama said there is no project. But listen to this protester and there is a total ignorant about the subject that says there is a project here. It will be... where is the project? Sorry, feel me.

We have not two projects. We have two sides. No. But no, but words in these days, words are... we have two sides. Yes.

How come? But how the hell I talk and talk and talk? You have the recording. So you have the recording. I have Hal Diamond. So I'm here. I'm talking. I never said it's cancelled. Nothing was cancelled because there never was a project to cancel. No, not okay. You come here with your mind full of the lies that have blocked your brain and nothing passes to your brain. If your... no, your brain is okay but the problem is how open is it for effect. So when I said... No, no, no, no, no, it's not okay. No, no, it's not okay. No, it's not okay. I don't take it. No, it's not okay. We have others here and they have to tell me if everyone says I said in the beginning we cancel the project then we have a problem. We have to go to the tape. I don't continue. No, I can't continue. Sorry. You tell me something that I never said because you came here convinced that there is a project and that they cancelled. There is no project. Are you kidding me or what? She said that in the beginning I said the project was cancelled. Right. I didn't say that because... are you real or what? But these are the things where we are having all this fog. I never said we cancelled the project because there was never a project. The project is being worked. So what is difficult to understand in this? Or is it not sexy? Facts are not sexy, you know. Facts are not sexy. Facts are boring. Lies are very sexy. This is what every day I learn with all that is spread in all the platforms because again I spoke here half an hour and you didn't listen to me. What is the difference between there is no project and the project is cancelled? You don't see the difference? To cancel a project you should have one, otherwise what you cancel? You got it? What is this? Are you real? You don't see the difference between there is no project and the project was cancelled? There's no difference? No. That's why I put this question. We are in good hands. My grandmother used to say: erring is human, persisting is diabolic. Don't insist in that. Clarify what you heard wrongly. Listen, listen. What project is suspended? What are you talking about? But how is suspended when the project does not exist? What project is suspended? Which authorities? Which ambassador of the US said that? In this morning? I don't know what he said but if he said this it's wrong because there is no project suspended. But I understand you. Listen, I have a friend. No, no. This is real. This is very real. I believe that you really believe it because I have a friend of mine and I had to meet him for some reasons and he said to me, I'm late. Okay, no problem. And then he comes and he says to him, did you have any problem? He said, Eddie, I was in protest. I said, you were in protest? He said, yeah. The guy is a very good man, very highly educated Muslim and not fanatic at all, but he used to go to the mosque. He said, but why you brothers? He said, listen, man. I love you. You know my loyalty to you as a friend. I trust you. But with this fence to implement what BB Netanyahu wants, you have gone too far. I said, man, you are talking to me. I'm not social media. Your mind has been occupied by that and you believe that but this is not true. So I understand you, your mind has been captured by this lie because it's a lie. The project has never been suspended, has never been cancelled because first of all it has never been approved. Guess what? So you cannot cancel something that has not been approved. You cannot suspend something that has not been approved. The project is being worked as we speak and I'm telling you again and again and again. You continue. It's crazy. So now it's not my word against yours. It cannot be my word. You are the journalist. So you have to find the project has been cancelled. It's not my word against yours. So it's about facts. You have to show, say, Prime Minister, look at the project. This is your sign. This is the building permission. Why you lie? So since the Romans, I guess we have embraced a civilization that has always been based on the principle: who has a claim, who has an accusation has to prove, not who is accused. And I'm telling you I don't see any...

Proof of all this. And I say there is no project. I say there's no environmental assessment yet. I say that for the project are working the biggest among the biggest guys. I'm saying that for the environmental assessment are working the best possible.

And I'm saying wait to see, wait to see. Don't prejudge. Don't show me flamingos. Flamingos are among those rare birds that have shown more than once that they live together with people. Flamingos live together with people. Flamingos are part of touristic destinations where people go of high-end.

So you want proofs, you can find easy. Go on the internet and ask flamingos and people, and you will be surprised how many pictures you'll have of flamingos with elderly people, with kids, flamingos walking in the paths of resorts with people. So what can I tell you? Wait to see what is this.

I know, I know it's boring, but these are facts. So you can ask your question. Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. More than one, you say there's no project because it's not. Is it planned? Is it planned to be there? And if there's no project, why talking about that specific project?

This is another question, and again I said it from the beginning. Yes, of course we will do it. This I said from the beginning. We will do it. We will develop these areas. This is of course something we'll do.

Oh my god. Oh my god. And then I am the guy that I'm not nice with the journalist. My god. Do you listen? You don't understand either. Really amazing.

Exactly. No, it's not confusing. Yes, it is. It is. Okay. So, do you have a house? Do you want another house? For example, I'm just saying if you want. If you want. Exactly. So if you plan to have a house, right? Let's say not you personally, but you marry someone and you want to have a house together, right?

It's a project. No. Huh? It's a project. This is called project. No, this is the project is when you get the house. When you get the house, when you draw the planning, yes, the planning, the thing, but this is first is a vision, is an idea and then you develop the project.

Of course, if you ask this, of course I never. I said this is something that has been clear to the Albanian people, to Albania, since two and three or three years. It's clear. It's on record. I campaigned and I said in Vlorë we will make something that will be stunning. So this is clear. When we say it's a, these are two different levels. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.

When you say cancel the project, if you mean cancel the idea, I say to you no, never. But the guys are not saying cancel the idea, saying cancel the project. I say there's no project. So these are two different things.

Not yet. They are working. Are you listening to me? When they'll be ready. It's not me. It's the investors that are working with great architects, great engineers, and when they'll bring their tangible plan, then we will see.

So they have brought a concept which is like a master plan. And we have given so many indications of what is acceptable, what is not acceptable, and they will have to come with the project. So this is for me the project. If you're asking, do you really have the vision? Yes, I have. Do you have the idea? Yes, I have. Do you have the ambition? Yes, I have. Do you want it to happen? Yes, I will make it happen. So this is what is clear.

But the question is, is it a rational debate to say no without even seeing what is the intent, or is it rational to say let's see the intent and let's talk? These are two different things in my view, but it seems I am not okay.