He Flew to Space. Now He's Building a New Space Station

My pleasure, great to be with you Daniel.

Uh we founded Voyager August of '19. So, we're going to be seven years old in about five months.

Right.

Yeah. Yeah. So uh space infrastructure company is probably the best way to think about it. So we do national security applications and uh space infrastructure. So, a couple of key things that we're involved in that people might be interested in. One is we're building a successor to the International Space Station. So, a commercial space station called Star Lab, uh, which is fantastic. We have partners on that like Palantir, Airbus, Mitsubishi. Uh, we're also the largest commercial user of the International Space Station today. So, a lot of the missions and experiments that happen on the International Space Station today are our company running those missions. We've done 1,400 missions to the ISS in just the last seven years. Uh well the company we acquired actually was founded prior to that. So call it last 15 years we've been doing that. Uh so those are some of our major uh applications. We also do a lot of picks and shovels type work. So when we talk about what's happening in space, there's a lot of applications that require things like communication, which is typically done with lasers, or um how do you identify where you are in space, right? GPS doesn't work. So there are things like uh sun sensors and star sensors that allow you to position amongst the stars. Uh so all these different applications and of course you know as you know we'll get into it space is my passion. So, you know, this is really, really cool stuff. And and you know, to put a finer point on it, I mean, this is a mission-driven business, right? We believe very strongly that space is not only the next big thing for humanity, but it has direct benefits to life here on Earth. And uh not the least of which is this perspective shift that astronauts get when they see the Earth from space.

Yeah. Well, I definitely age three that counts. Literally, that's the punch line. Uh I definitely have the explorer gene Daniel. I mean I'm compelled by what's over the hill, what's possible. Uh whether that's the frontier of the way your mind works or the frontier of a geographic zone or technology. So I'm definitely wired that way. But for me, you know, it's a bit cliche. It was honestly with Star Trek. And I remember watching it with my dad and you know, at the time he was in graduate school getting his PhD and we were kind of living in a I'd say a little bit of a rough situation.

We were in Denver actually in um uh West Denver in a pretty rough part of town frankly. And I remember thinking to myself, we've got this like utopian world. And I wasn't thinking utopia when I'm age three, but I'm like look, everyone's getting along. Everyone has plenty of stuff. Um every week is a new adventure, a new planet. I'm like, why that's different than what I see out my front door. I'm like, how what's the disconnect here? And so I was really compelled by not only the sense of adventure but the sense of social harmony. And that was really really really compelling to me uh at that age and I never forgot that.

Tons of tangents. So super ambitious, super type A.

A fear of failure. Uh driven by, I'm sure, my parents. Um and uh but yeah, I you know, so it took me a long time to kind of wrap my brain around that and understand, you know, it's a fuel source, right? You shouldn't try to uh fix that, but you should try to redirect it for more positive uh aims. And so, you know, I reached a point in my life where, and I think a lot of people could perhaps relate to this, is I was successful in quotes, but pretty miserable and feeling like um it wasn't a purposeful uh life. It wasn't mission-driven. The people I was working with, I didn't necessarily like or respect, let alone love. Love wasn't even a construct in my mind, right? And so um so I went through that whole journey and came out that side. There's a book I read super influential which you've probably read called The Last Lecture.

Great book. And also a lecture of course on YouTube. And and that really got me thinking about um you know and not to steal the punchline there on what the book and lecture say, but it's follow your childhood dreams, right? Um, and you can have your cake and eat it too. And so I had reflected on that. And I was 40. Uh, no, I was younger. 38. I was 38. And um, and you know, just starting our family and had young kids and things like that. And so really questioning, it's like, okay, what's my purpose? What have we all have gifts. What is my contribution to the world? How do I make the world a better place? What's my legacy? And for me, it had always been space. It had always been my passion. And I thought to myself, well, look, what do I have to offer the space industry? Well, I have a little bit of business experience. I have a little bit of capital and maybe I can start getting involved initially as an early stage investor. And mentor. And that's sort of how I entered the industry originally. And then ultimately went into the industry full-time. Founded Voyager. Uh founded a nonprofit called Space for Humanity, which is here in Boulder. Um that sends private citizens to space. Uh which we've done six now. Um in exchange for coming back to Earth and doing a fellowship to make the world a better place. And um yeah. So I mean I feel like you know it's uh this construct that the Japanese have where you're operating in the sphere of what the world needs, what you're good at, um what you can be successful at. Uh ikigai I think they call it. I feel like I'm operating there. And of course if you're operating in that space you feel quite unstoppable because your fuel source is unlimited. Your energy source is unlimited. Like it's I you know many people have said this before but I think love is the most regenerative force or energy or fuel in the universe.

Yeah. Well, overview effect is the right term. Um, Frank White wrote that book. Um, uh, Rhodes Scholar, Harvard professor, great guy. He's become a close friend. He's in his mid 80s now. Um, but yeah, you know, so first of all, life-changing. Uh, and to be clear, I was on a suborbital flight. So, this is an up and down on Blue Origin. I did that in December of 2021. And the money shot is being in zero gravity. Uh which in some respects feels like you're floating in the womb a bit. Um it feels natural. Yeah. Which is interesting. Well, it feels extraordinary, but it also feels familiar. Which is interesting. And seeing the Earth from space. Um I'll do my best to describe it. So, imagine a new emotion. Okay. We're talking a lot about love. I also like gratitude and all these but think about it a new emotion. The first part we'll call it love but it's really this deep sense of affection and um harmony because everything that you've ever known and everything you've ever loved and every experience you've ever had is right there in front of you. So it's this deep sense of wow, you know, connection, love, connection, affection. That's one part. Second part is fear. And it's not fear of dying or any of this kind of thing. It's the terror of the hostility because 99.999% of the universe so far as we know is cold and dead and hostile. And you've got this beautiful miracle, fragile. And you know, atmosphere, uh, if you didn't know the word atmosphere, you wouldn't even describe the Earth as having an atmosphere. It is literally a whisper. It's like the dew on the leaf in the morning. And so you're thinking to yourself, that's what's protecting us from this whole thing. Everything I've ever known and loved and experienced, right? You're like terrified. You're like, wow. It's like, you know, we're so fragile. And then the third part of the emotion is anger. And the anger is because you feel like you've been whispered the password and the answer to something truly profound. And you are so frustrated that the world doesn't see it because when you're up there, what you understand is there is no other place. There is no other people. There's only here and us. That's it. Like there is no the others. The other, no, that's not the reality of our situation. So imagine those three emotions, fuse them together, multiply by a billion, and bury it so deep inside of your spirit that you can't unremember it or unfelt it for the rest of your life. And that's what it's like. And you know, just to validate some of this, I participated in this psychological study with a professor out of Johns Hopkins, Dr. David Yaden. He was at Penn before that and he was studying awe. You used that word earlier. And I'm a big fan of awe and wonderous sensations. And so he was looking at everything. He was looking at uh the awe from nature. He was looking at psychedelics. He was looking at meditation. And what he found is spaceflight is literally off the charts. It's like a four standard deviation event, right? And you know, so you're not exaggerating when you're talking about this feeling. No. No. It's literally off the charts. And I'll even go so far as to say I don't think you can go to space and not be impacted. Because I've had the privilege of meeting, you know, I'll make a number up, but it's directionally correct, 50 astronauts, male, female, you know, Russian, uh, Korean, Japanese, American, atheists, Muslim, Christian, uh, hardcore fighter pilots, artists, and to a person they have been impacted. Every single one. Yeah. So yeah, I mean we could talk the entire podcast about this Daniel because I want to me this is like you know when people say well if I can I'll just talk briefly about Space for Humanity of course. When I founded Space for Humanity I was in um an Aspen Institute uh fellowship. Yeah this is Henry Crown. Henry Crown. Yeah. And um you have to do a venture. A project. And I'm sitting in this room. There's 20 of us in this fellowship. And it's one of these things, you know, that hundreds of people are nominated. And you know, they clearly they make mistakes everywhere. They make mistakes as exemplified by my selection. But I'm sitting in this room and it's you know, Rhodes Scholars and you know, whatever like the elite, smartest, most successful people in the world supposedly. And everyone's lamenting the fact that the world's broken and they don't know how to fix it. And I'm thinking to myself, if people in this room don't feel like they can make an impact in the world, I'm like, something is wrong here, right? And what I concluded was the issue is not enough ideas or enough resources. The issue is we lack perspective. That's what I concluded. And we're too parochial. We're too myopic. And when you zoom out, you know, you're the fish who gets out of the fishbowl and realizes that you were in water the whole time. That's when you can actually impact some of these more intractable issues. So that was my conclusion. So if you believe that to be true, then the question is, well, how do you shift people's perspective? I know spaceflight works. So then I thought to myself, okay, it doesn't scale particularly well. I get that. Not yet. But if we can get five or 10 or 15 or 20 citizen astronauts to space that come from different communities that haven't had a chance to go to space, then it's not me talking about this uh power of transformation and space as a tool for transformation. It's those people who win. And so, for example, the first uh person that we sent for Space for Humanity was Katya, who is a Mexican-born female um who had crossed into California with her mother, undocumented. Uh she's got a great story. She was working at McDonald's, barely spoke English. She has a dream. She wants to work for NASA. That's her dream. Learns English. Gets herself into community college, crushes it. Gets herself into UCLA engineering school. Wow. Crushes it. And gets an internship with JPL. Um, so we selected her and she ended up going and changed her life. She ended up becoming a celebrity and, you know, cover of Vogue and her own Barbie doll and her flight suit for Space for Humanity in the Smithsonian Institute. And the president of Mexico, she uh influenced Mexico to actually build a STEM education center for young women uh and girls in Mexico. Named after her. So these are examples of that little seed of change in perspective shift had that impact.

That's a genius way to explain it. Uh I like the acupuncture analogy, but yeah, that's the thinking. And if we could send a thousand people, that'd be better, of course. But um yeah, so that's uh really my passion. And so tying back to Voyager, the idea is, you know, again, how do you build the infrastructure? We need places to go, commercial space station. You know, one dream would be, you know, maybe we have a G20 uh meeting on a commercial space station in orbit. You know, maybe you get a different outcome. Maybe people have a different point of view. Um, you know, and I get a lot of this is Pollyannaish, Daniel. I get it. But I think directionally, if we want to inspire people for what's possible, and this is what I love about space, right? It's a blank canvas. And uh we've got a lot of uh co-creation that we can do. We can help shape this.

Yeah. Well, I think it starts with ambition. Like not, you know, trying to make my parents happy, right? You're the little boy trying to get love and affection from your parents. I think that's where it starts. So, I don't think you take that out of your system. I think you're wired that way probably. Um, so I think it starts with ambition, but you know, I think where I've been able to shape it a bit is rather than personal ambition, you know, I had a mentor one time who called it reflected glory. And he said, Dylan, when your pleasure in seeing glory that you bring to others exceeds your desire for personal glory, you'll truly be a leader. And I've never forgotten that. So, expanding the aperture, how do I impact the world? How do I make a difference in the world? And then if you believe all that and you're driven that way, and I know you're wired this way, too. I then ask myself, what are the impediments? Like I work backwards from here's the end state. What are the impediments? And my philosophy is I'll do anything within that value chain that needs to be done. You know, sweep the floors, proverbial sweep the floors. But um so for example with the early stage investing in space it wasn't that I envisioned myself as a great investor but when I looked at the industry at that time there wasn't enough early stage capital I thought to myself okay well you know uh companies at the time were saying well we need more public company exits and we need more venture capital investors and I said well yes but you're never going to get that until you have public company exits, right? So, you got to focus on the first part and create the flywheel. So, that's why we then started on basically angel uh part of the capital stack. Um, so again, it wasn't that I thought this was going to be a great investment necessarily or that I was a great investor, but it was a need that the industry there's a gap and you could fill it. And it ended up being ironically a home run investor-wise, but that's not how I was thinking about it. And now the way we're thinking about it is what does the industry need? The industry needs the next base layer of infrastructure, commercial space stations, lunar bases, communications, power, and so that's why we're really focused on building that layer.

Right. Yeah. So, the International Space Station probably the best thing humans have done honestly. It's been up there 25 plus years. It's the most complicated machine we've ever built. 400 plus billion dollars. Uh it's a consortium between the Europeans, ourselves, Japan, Canada, and Russia. Russia's still on the International Space Station and being a good partner by all accounts. So I think space is kind of this grand unifier in many respects, but the station is aging. And it's got some cracks. They say air leaks. Well, these are small. But the point is it's not going to last forever. And so, um, currently Congress is proposing extending it from 2030 to 2032. But I don't think it'll extend much. We're not going to go beyond that. So NASA then put out procurements on building successors. And they won a commercial model. We were fortunate to be one of the winners of that phase one competition. Uh and then our project uh Star Lab is this consortium with Airbus, Mitsubishi, Palantir, uh Hilton Hotels, Northwell. Hilton's involved, you know, because we were trying to reimagine um human habitation on orbit and Hilton was a partner to that. They're great designers as well. So we've been working on that for the past almost four years. And we've passed I think it's now uh 28 milestones with NASA. Uh so that's all going well. We've had our design review back in December. And then NASA will have a phase 2 competition. They'll probably select two final successors. Those will then be constructed and then launched. Ours should be in orbit in 2029.

That's right. Many are about to. And it was a pretty narrow window last summer. There weren't a lot of companies that went. We were purpose-built to be a public company. So from the first day we founded the company because I had run public companies my whole career and I had done several IPOs in my career and so I knew that the industry needed a public company platform. So we had purpose-built it to take it public. Uh you know we didn't anticipate COVID. We didn't anticipate the Ukraine Russian conflict. So my original plan was to get it public in about four years. Which was aggressive and it ended up being six years which still kind of aggressive about it. Super happy with it. It was very well-received. It did really well and it's traded reasonably well since then. Um so I think you know what I really wanted to do we were getting a lot of pressure. Well consider a SPAC and all these things and I told my team at the time I said look getting public in some respects is the easy part. Hard part is being a high quality public company and I want to provide leadership to the industry. I want to show a proper S-1 IPO process and provide the fairway. Do it well. Do it well and do it professionally. Do it with, you know, a great banking team, you know, with proper analyst coverage, institutional investors and all that. So, I'm very proud of what we have done and I think to your point, a lot of uh space companies are now in vogue. We've got the SpaceX IPO coming up and um I anticipate several companies getting public this year.

Yeah, they were fantastic. Uh Rob Brass was our banker there. And Rob uh Rob's amazing. Yeah, Rob is fantastic. And Rob, I have to credit Rob. Uh because I think he helped us shape our narrative in a way that we hadn't totally seen from the outside or from the inside. Um so he was super instrumental in helping us craft, I would say, our go-to street messaging. Uh so Rob's been great. Barclays has been great. We had other, you know, banks on the deal, of course, but um but yeah, no, they've been great partners and we worked with Barclays also on a follow-on offering. We did a convertible offering. They were on that deal as well. And um they're part of our banking syndicate for our credit facility. So, they're great partners.

We are. Yeah. Yeah. And I saw Rob, we were in Miami at a conference uh not too long ago and uh he had me on stage. So, yeah. He's a great guy.

Oh god, I love this question. So, we think of the three L's. LEO, which is low Earth orbit. Lunar. And Lagrangian, which I'll get to. It sounds cool. I know. So, uh, well, we'll start with Lagrangian. So, Lagrangian points, there are five Lagrangian points. Which are these stable orbits. Think of an orbit between the moon, the earth and the sun. And think of it as getting tugged by all three of those bodies equally. So, you kind of sit in a place, you're in a good spot and you don't basically need energy to maintain that orbit. Think of it as almost like a permanent orbit. So, there's five of these. Um the most interesting ones are um L1 and L2. L2 is about a million miles from Earth. Uh that's where the James Webb telescope sits. Uh which is super super interesting and great piece of uh you know technology that humanity has built. Uh but the idea was there was a professor at Princeton, Gerard K. O'Neill, went by Jerry O'Neill, actually had a media company that made a film about Jerry. Because he wrote a book called The High Frontier, which was instrumental with Jeff Bezos when Jeff Bezos gave his high school valedictorian speech. He talked about reading this book, how it changed his life, how he was going to go make a bunch of money and then build space colonies based upon this book. That was his plan from high school. And so Jeff is an O'Neillian. I would consider myself an O'Neillian. But one of the things they worked out was to build these, he called them colonies, but think of them as gigantic space stations that would have thousands of people. At these Lagrangian points. Um L5 being where he envisioned it. Very Star Trek like. Um and I could talk a lot more about that, but the idea is these Lagrangian points. Think of that as like a deep space strategy. Because you can prove technologies there that would be relevant to Mars, be relevant to the asteroid belt and other um strategies like that. So we've got a strategy around Lagrangian. Working our way back you've got lunar. And so we've got a big push into uh a lunar initiative. We call it Project Preval is what we refer to it as. And it's really three parts. One is um designing around lunar dust. We've got some key technology that allows you to mitigate the dust, um coating technology that uh because one of the design parameters on the moon is the dust gets in everything. And think of it as like little shards of glass. Uh so that's a key part. The other is generating usable oxygen from uh moon regolith. We've got key technology. Soil basically. Yeah. They call it regolith because it's essentially think of it as crushed up rock. Um but that's uh so extracting usable oxygen from that. And then the third part is building lunar habitation. We invested in a company called Max Space which does expandable inflatable

Soft-shelled, if you will, habitation, and we think that's the right solution for the moon.

So that's lunar, and then low Earth orbit. We talked about that earlier, but that's where the commercial space station will go and all that. So those are the different strategies. So what would our impact be? Our impact would be having infrastructure in LEO, doing experimentation in LEO, which we can talk more about this magic of microgravity, because you can print organs, Daniel, you can do perfect crystal growth in microgravity, and a lot of other really cool things. So think of this as a flying laboratory with really innovative science to benefit life here on Earth. So that's the commercial space station platform.

And then for the moon, you know, so why the moon? Well, first of all, if you're a believer in fusion, which I think most people are, we're running out of helium on Earth. They've got a ton, literally and figuratively, of helium-3 on the moon.

So that's a reason to go. There are lots of rare earth minerals on their own, which, as we know, aren't that rare here on Earth, but they're controlled primarily by China is the biggest issue.

So we have all those. You can generate, you know, unlimited power in space. We're talking about putting compute in space because there's a big NIMBY — not in my backyard — with data centers.

Because of power and water, and you have infinite cooling and solar energy. Yeah. Although the cooling, believe it or not, it's counterintuitive. The cooling is actually tricky, really, because actually it's easier on the moon, but it's tricky because you don't have — you can only radiate heat away.

Because, you know, on Earth you have three different kinds of cooling. You've got radiative.

You've got convective.

And you've got conductive.

When you touch something that's colder.

Got it. There's no convection because there's no medium to exchange heat.

And there's no conduction because you're not touching anything either. So it's only radiative. So you need a pretty large radiator to radiate away the heat. It's all solvable.

But it's counterintuitive.

And that's why I think, you know, Elon's talking about building these data centers in space. I think the form factor would be like a dorm-sized fridge.

And do a mesh network.

As opposed to, let's say, a school bus-sized data center, because then the radiator would have to be, you know, 100 yards long.

To radiate it away.

Yeah. So this is your life. So in the last 15 years or so, you mentioned — was it over 1,200?

1,400 experiments on ISS. When you have Starlab, obviously I'm assuming you're going to be doing it at a higher clip or velocity than that.

Yeah, there's some great examples. So one is the breakthrough drug, Keytruda, for lung cancer.

Part of the issue with drug efficacy is working out formulation. And formulation has a lot to do with protein folding, crystal growth, and how to actually create a molecule that works inside the body, right? The only way to do that here on Earth under the weight of gravity is to put it in a human or put it in an animal.

When you put it in space, you take away that compression and you can actually see how molecules behave biologically even though you're not inside a biological vehicle.

Yeah. Yeah. Totally. So that's one example. Think of all these drug formulations, but Keytruda is kind of the poster child of that.

The other is printing organs. So humanity has printed a meniscus on the International Space Station and brought it down to Earth and shown that you can actually put that into a human. So you ask yourself, why can't we 3D print tissue on Earth? And the answer is because the gravity is such that you can't put a surface layer in place waiting for the next layer without it getting crushed under its own weight.

Yep. Let it congeal and set up, and then return it back. So imagine your stem cells being utilized to print a kidney.

On orbit.

That matches you. It comes back perfectly.

It won't be rejected because it's you.

So that's a whole other thing. And then the third is perfect crystal growth. So you can actually grow a perfect crystal in space.

The beautiful thing with perfect crystals is you can bring them back to Earth and grow a larger perfect crystal around it.

Because once you have the seed, it just goes.

So there's lots and lots and lots of applications for that. Semiconductor wafers, optical fiber — I mean, anything that requires pristine materials. And there's lots of applications of that. Those seeds can be grown in space and brought down to Earth.

It's to shift perspective and to inspire people to reimagine what's possible for humanity and for how we treat each other. And yeah, so it really is that — get the fish out of the fishbowl and have them understand that they were on water and that there's a different perspective. So that's the greater why. So one of the things I like to ask people is — it's a thought experiment.

Which is — and here's how I frame it. The future of humanity in space will be defined by the answer to a question. That question is: what will happen first? The first human born in space, or the first combat fatality in space?

And I think the answer to that question is going to define very much. Now, we live in a world — we project those dangers in other domains, and space is a domain, and we have a Space Force, and China's got one too. And by the way, we did that in reaction to what our adversaries were doing.

So that's the world we live in. And so a lot of people would say, look, humans are humans, and everything we are here, we're going to be out there. I reject that. I reject that because I think that assumes that you can't shape it, you can't influence it, you can't imagine a better outcome. So I just completely reject that.

Yeah.

I think it's a genius question, Daniel, because — and I know you know the answer to the question. I can tell because it's embedded in the question that you're asking. I think it's remembering, because I think it's kind of that third part of the emotion that I was mentioning earlier, where it's like you're so frustrated because it's so obvious when you're up there.

It's so clear.

You've always known it, and it's so frustrating. I think it was Edgar Mitchell, one of the astronauts on Apollo, who was like, you want to grab them by the lapels and say, 'Take a look at this.' He was talking about politicians, but that's how you feel because you do feel like there's this deep sense of connection that exists.

And I think it's so much clearer when you're up there. So to answer your question, I think it is a remembering. And by the way, I don't think you need to go to space to know that. There's lots of people, you know, that you haven't been to space and you know that. So I think there are other ways to discover that. But I think once you're up there, it's very obvious.

Well, when I came back, I don't think too much changed in terms of what my motivations were, but I just had a deeper sense of urgency. Like, I felt like, okay, I'm absolutely on the right track. I'm focusing on the right issues, and I just need to get to work. And every morning, I just bounce out of bed because I feel like I'm doing the most important work I could be doing.

So that's kind of how I felt it. What's interesting about the spaceflight experience is it's very much not a personal — it doesn't feel like a personal experience.

It feels deeper than that. And it goes back to, you know, people say, 'Well, were you afraid?' And I told people ahead of the spaceflight, I'm like, 'I'm going to be terrified.' I'm like, 'How can you not be?' It's like, you know, you're strapped to an explosion. I'm like, 'When you get to T-minus 10, I'm going to be trembling,' because I'm not particularly brave.

And the reality was I was not nervous at all.

Yeah. I think my heart rate was 52 on launch.

I was not nervous at all. Now, part of it is the training because you rehearse everything over and over and over again. The second thing is I think it's just this deep sense of like, okay, well, this is the way I go. It's like I'm living my dream, and so it's really counterintuitive. The only thing I was nervous about was getting scrubbed because we had some weather that delayed the launch.

And I'm like, 'Oh, what if they cancel, and then what if we don't go tomorrow, and then what if I never go?' And by the way, our whole crew was just very chill.

Everyone was calm.

Being strapped to an explosion.

Free cremation if you look at it that way.

Well, yeah. Well, I'm still learning. You know, I wouldn't consider myself — I think there are new discoveries all the time, and the market changes, of course. But what I would say is I love running public companies, and people think I'm crazy. And I've had mentors, actually, you know, early days in Voyager, they're like, 'Dylan, you're an idiot. Do not take Voyager public. Why would you do that to yourself?' I like the degree of difficulty.

I like having a high standard. I like being held accountable. I like the transparency. I like the talent that you can recruit into a platform like that.

I like having a scoreboard in the sense that, you know, you know how you're doing. Your investors are going to tell you how you're doing. So I like all of that. A lot of people don't like the pressure.

They don't like the have-to-do.

But, you know, I still control the company. I've got supermajority voting shares. So there are things that you can do. You have a great board of directors. It's the same directors that we had when we founded the company.

We have a great...

I think it does. And they're all top-notch. And we've got a great group of investors. And so I feel like it is a public company, and we have accountability to our investors, but I also think there's enough trust in the system to allow us to run it for the long term.

So we don't have this quarter-to-quarter...

Yeah. Exactly. Because I still effectively control the company with the voting shares. So...

It is.

It was intentional. We designed it that way. And again, I mean, the investors have to agree to that.

Yeah.

That's right.

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.