John Usher's so funny. The doctor. John. He's not a doctor who started the $5 electric toothbrush, um, and sold that business after having sold other businesses before and probably had enough money before starting that business. But he tried to take up golf from Florida. He's like, so bored by it. Maybe not a great swing, I don't know, but, um, went back and started this $5 toothbrush business in the.com era, which is exactly the kind of company you would think would make you hundreds of millions of dollars during the.com era. It's only $5 electric toothbrushes. Um, but that's what he did because he just, like, couldn't sit still. Um, I mean, he was a had a personality, clearly, because, like, even as a kid, his first business was, um. Don't tell your son you're not going to media. No, no, no, no sources here.
Hello and welcome to another episode of the All Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe Weisenthal Joe. I've a very exciting episode for you today. Go on. We are going to be talking about pastors as cause this is in the US tax code. This is so great. I'm so excited about this because I remember during some of those, um, tax cut negotiations and you have who's that? I think it was a senator from Wisconsin, Ron Johnson, and he was like, oh no, I don't know which one it was. But he was like, oh, we really need to preserve some pass through. And I didn't learn about it. And then, then I was like, well, you know, whatever. And then I've missed it. That was a great. So finally, here in 2026, I can learn about something that I really should have learned in December of 2017.
Well, actually, I'm glad you said that, because this is sort of the thrust of what this entire conversation is going to be, which is when we talk about tax breaks for the wealthy we normally talk about, or we think about Jeff Bezos paying like 0% income tax or something like that, but actually a lot of the tax cuts, um, that we've seen, I guess, since the 1980s and now most recently under the Trump administration, have been for eskers for these pass through entities which generally get framed as small businesses. That's right. But as it turns out, a lot of these businesses are actually phenomenally large and very, very wealthy.
Yeah, there's a few things that I think are really interesting here. So obviously, um, people just like, love the sound of small business, right? Like small business makes people feel good, whatever it is people like, it's sort of it's something aesthetically nice about something very American as well. So you think about talk, though, and his big impression of America was, oh, it's this nation of entrepreneurs. Yeah. So there's something about small business that feels good, etc.. The other thing that I'm really interested in, and I brought this up a couple of times on the podcast. You know what? Well, I think when a lot of people think about the United States or the American economy and the sort of distribution of wealth and income and so forth. There is an incredible, you know, there. People talk about inequality and then they think, okay, there's like a 1% or 0.1 percent. It's insanely wealthy. You mentioned Jeff Bezos and a handful of others like that, and then people are aware of the fact that for a country as rich as ours is probably unacceptably high levels of like poverty, and people perceive there correctly to be a lot of people who are financially struggling, etc.. But I always think that like, the missing thing is like that fat layer of rich people and the fact that the I'm always reminded by it, you know, we're recording this September 9th, uh, I think by the time people listen to this will have already been there. But whenever we go to Southern California and I have Orange County, Huntington Beach, you just see, like all these people with boats and you see all these people you go to, like a steak house or something, and they have their own private like wine locker at the steakhouse. And it's like there's a lot of rich people. Yeah, they're not all like the tech billionaire. They're not all on the Forbes 400 or whatever that layer. And I of like, just really rich people. And they're not people who made some great invention etcetera necessarily, or some great huge breakthrough. But like whether it's like real estate or cars or just some sort of simple business. A lot of really rich people in this country. Yeah. And we should talk about them, try to figure out who they are, how many of them there actually are. And the one other thing I would also add that makes this sort of a very awful episode is we talk a lot about the private markets, right? Private credit, private markets, private equity. And often when we are talking about those specific businesses, we are talking about these types of businesses. So, you know, a private equity firm, you think of it as this Wall Street entity, but it owns a portfolio of, I don't know, HVAC companies in Missouri or something. And the last thing I'll say, and I don't know how much we'll get into this part per se. But like if you think about, I don't know if like the dark matter of American politics, etc., you know, like privately owned companies are often or the owners of privately owned companies, some regional beverage distributor or something like that are often very important figures in regional politics. And senators, if you want to get your handle on that, should sort of know who these people are and how they got there. We'll get into that, definitely. So I'm happy to say we do, in fact, have the perfect guests. We're going to be speaking with the authors of the new book, The Everywhere Millionaire, who is really rich in America and how they got there, and the authors are Owens at are professor of economics at Princeton, and Eric Swick, professor of economics and finance at Chicago Booth. So thank you both so much for being here.
Thanks for having us. It's great to be here.
It's a great book. When I was reading it, I was thinking, it's sort of like a stud, like an upscale. Studs Terkel, you know, you have all these stories of millionaires and how they actually got there. But the origin story of this book is something I wanted to ask you about, because it also sits squarely within our plots territory. When we talk about, I guess, what a mess government data and technology tends to be. Because this book started with a project, a commission by the Treasury Department to try to sift through IRS data to figure out who these people actually were and how many of them there are. Talk to us about what you found when you started that project.
Yeah, so we started more than a decade ago, uh, commissioned by the Treasury to go into the bowels of the Treasury and work with tax data to try and link all the businesses to their owners and workers because they didn't have the ability to do that, and they needed it to do tax policy to sort of think about what if we change the tax code, how much tax these pass through businesses pay? Um, they didn't have the capacity to do that because the data weren't connected. And so that was the original kind of sin of our project. That was the foundation of our project was to sort of build this data that, as we continued to expand it, add years, uh, different types of, uh, layers on it by looking at just the entrepreneurs, for instance, um, we could start to see, oh, there's actually a picture of income, wealth, entrepreneurship, prosperity. Um, in the American economy that is very different than the picture that we were getting from the media, the picture we were getting from the Capitol book and so on. And so that's sort of the beginning was that kind of nerdy tax data project, um, the computers, the, uh, databases, the XML and so on, which we can talk more about. But, uh, but that's where we started.
Well, I wanted to ask about the databases, actually, because it just sounded like a nightmare the way you described it. And then there's this funny moment in the book where you basically, like, randomly find the guy who kind of built these systems and understood them and was able to help you wrap your head around them. How difficult was this?
I mean, so the the underlying data are basically everything on a tax form. So, you know, you can have information about the business, you can have investors in the business. You get money going to them. They're not made to be linked and many of them aren't electronically filed.
I guess when you say they're not made to be linked, can you what's their separate data. So they're just different forms, you know. So when you say Joe and Tracy had uh, the an S Corp and you own at 5050, you can file the businesses form and then, you know, you have to file, um, an investor form.
That is right. Half the profits are going to Joe, half the profits are going to Tracy. And the way they set up the identifiers aren't made where you're supposed to be able to add up all the things from investors. And that should add up everything from the business. So the story, uh, about how we figured out how to do this, we're going through old code books, like things were called different variable names. And Eric, I don't know if you want to tell the story about going to, uh, obscure part of Utah.
Yes, I'm like, giving a talk, uh, at Utah State. And I knew that one of the guys who designed the XML system, that when people electronically filed their tax returns, it's sort of like the formula for converting those tax returns into rows and columns that then get processed. Um, lived on the way from the airport to the lecture I was giving. So I was like, can I come and just ask you some questions? And so I met him for lunch. We had burgers. You thinking, uh, I was thinking, okay, this is gonna this is, I was imagining, like, in the matrix, you know, like, you go see the Oracle, and it's like this old lady, you know, is like the spoon is bending. You know, I was imagining, like, some guy who, like, like, kind of a hermit is like someone knocking on doors, like, why are you here? What do you, uh. It's like, that's not me. And then finally, after. No, I keep going. He was a super reasonable. He was kind of wearing, like, a flannel shirt, as everyone in Utah seems to. Do you want to have a beer at lunch? And I was happy to join him. And I had my, like, list of 25 questions that are like very intricate questions about the structure of this database. We had to rearrange columns in order to create the links to match, like the business forms of the individuals. We didn't know what any of these columns were.
And what year was this, by the way? Like this is like 20 1415.
So yeah. So you can't ask Claude to read the manual and read the code. There's no way to do that. There's no documentation. There's just like this knowledge in people's brains that you have to find to try and do this link. And there were other people who kind of knew some of these details, but we couldn't really get to the bottom of it until having a burger and beer with the architect.
I did this sort of a diversion, but I feel like I've read so many, uh, NBER working papers, which include the line we exploit a novel data set. How much of economics is like finding a novel data set? Like, you know, we think of it as like, oh, maybe we're going to apply some econometrics or theory of whatever. How about you just, you know, as professional economists, is it about finding that data?
I think it's an important part, but it's also you need to ask an important question. And if you are thinking about how do people get rich and you only see a small sliver of how it actually works, and then suddenly you can say, you know, there's a thousand private business owners that have $25 million for every large public company CEO. Like, we've missed all of these people. And now, for the first time, you can trace back, where did these people come from? Like, what are they doing? How did they do it? That, I think, opens it up and opens up a lot of work where I think you're right. Like, there's, uh, one of our one of Eric's advisors, Andrew Slifer, teaches a class at Harvard, and he basically gives the college students the assignment, like, find me a cool data set, and, like, that's cool how you write the paper. It's like, show me something I haven't seen before. So there's certainly something to find, a novel thing to get a hook on, something we care about. Yeah, but figuring out the question to ask with that data is kind of the trick. Like the data is sitting there like, oh, we can use this to understand inequality.
Okay, maybe this is like jumping forward, but just finally really give me what is passed through me. Like I finally like I'm just going to ask it when we talk about like, oh, this isn't a really wants to preserve or expand the pass through induction, what are we talking about here?
So pass through businesses are different than traditional corporations. So if you look at like a typical public company like GM, the rest of the corporation, they face the corporate tax. So when they make profits they have to pay the corporate tax. And then if they want to send money to individual investors, they have to pay dividends. Pass through are a different part of the tax code where you don't have to face the corporate taxes. The profits and losses go directly to the owners, and they weren't that big of a deal. In the 80s, the lion's share of profits and activity were in traditional corporations. And then after Reagan cut taxes in 1986 for an individual is lower than corporations. That suddenly became the most attractive way to organize yourself. And so we've seen this huge boom and pass through entities where that's the vast majority of businesses in America and like half of profits.
So, okay, once you figured out the IRS code and, um, got the, I guess, IRS servers that seem to be run by hamster spinning on wheels to actually work, what were your findings about wealth in America?
So this income is among the most concentrated so past their business income, uh, 70% of every dollar passed. Their business income goes to the top 1%. And if you look at the rise of income inequality, so like the famous graph, top 1% share of income from Piketty and Sy is going back to the 1980s, more than half of the growth from that period of time to the, you know, 2021 is coming in the form of pass through business income. Do you want to understand what's driving income inequality and wealth inequality? Because, you know, it's sort of a parallel story there. Um, you really have to understand this past their business sector. Like, what is the nature of this activity? We knew was past their business income. We didn't really know if this is like monopoly, man. Big business. Yeah. You know, they're just passively collecting the income or what we turned out to find it was sort of these mid-market regional businesses, of which there were just millions of them across the country. Um, and that was kind of like the second huge finding about, you know, who these passthrough business owners were and what they're doing.
Oh, you want to tell them, like our mnemonic from reading our kids like little books? Yeah. So I have three young kids. Eric has one young kid, and we're half jokingly thinking about writing a kid's book of the ABCs of getting Rich. Yeah, just go through and have a fun fact on each of them. And so A is for auto dealer. B is for beverage distribution business owner and then C is for contractor. D is then you know we could go through we actually did it. We haven't made the book.
You got to do it. Can I just say my son is obsessed with money. And finally you know he's like really shocking. Yeah. Where does he get it? I don't know. I know it's like he's always scheming. So he would love this book. Okay. Please write it. Okay. Pastor. Podcaster. Oh, yeah. All right. So give us an example that like, let's dive into a specific one. And I'm just going to choose car dealerships because this is an interesting one. I think everyone knows how a car dealership theoretically is supposed to work. And I don't think you normally think of used car dealers as super wealthy. And yet you have a lot of examples in the book of people who have accumulated millions, if not sometimes billions, from this business.
So the book opens with The Wedding of the century, which is, uh, a wedding. Uh, Bob and Paul Brockway, coral Gables, Florida. Uh, they sent their daughter to first to the island. Gary, for the bachelorette party was a four day party where they dressed up like Marie Antoinette. But then they flew all the guests to Paris for a five day wedding. I'm on private jets. They rented, uh, Versailles. Not for the wedding, but just for, like, here we talked about here. This was 2014. No, no. No worries. In 2023, 23, 23, 23, 24. Yeah, this was 2023, 2024 a few years ago. And it was all over social media. I remember this the wedding of the century. Adam Levine sang the first dance. You can see the Eiffel Tower illuminated in the distance. And, uh, their car dealers, third generation car dealers from Florida, the Mercedes dealer. And they had just sold the dealership, uh, for several hundred million dollars to, uh, actually a consortium that Nick Saban was a co-owner of. Um, but they dropped $60 million on his wedding. Um, and, you know, they're not even close to the top of the list in terms of the most prodigious car dealers in the country. So when we like zoom out and look at the industries that generate the most pass through business income and the top point 1%, the auto dealers were the number one bucket, which we were like, okay, this is not the Piketty story of like billionaire tech or finance. This is something different. What are these car dealers doing? Or as an example, industry. Um, and then we found them even more when we started looking in like yacht and jet registration data. They just own all these yachts and jets. And that's how we found them by name. Because the tax data that we were talking about before, we couldn't identify people that way. So when we set out to write the book and tell a bunch of stories, okay, let's find other data sources. We know the rough signatures, we know where to look. Um, but let's find the people by name so we can tell a little bit more of their background, their story.
I love that looking at yacht registries to find rich people, it makes sense, but I'm guessing not many people have done it before. I'm curious, like from, uh, pure like economics perspective, when we think about, let's say, someone's salary. And so, okay, here is a really talented person. Maybe they're really great with computers. Maybe they have a lovely voice that sounds great on podcasts and they're like, okay, this is maybe a rare skill, etc. so they're going to get a lot of money. Or maybe we think about like someone who makes a great invention or whatever, and everyone wants to buy it and they get a slice of it. And so they make a lot of money. Let's just stick with car dealers, for example. How would you characterize what these very successful car dealers have brought to the table, such that the economy has rewarded them with such riches?
So that's a great question, I think, only to tell two stories of car dealers that kind of give, uh, a flavor of the complexity, even within car dealers. So one of my favorite ones is a story we tell in the book. Um, it's about Larry Miller, and Larry Miller is from Utah. He basically worked in the parts department at a Toyota, and he learned every single, almost like your Aldi guy. Uh, he, like, knew all the parts. and he turned it from the 961st best dealer of parts of Toyota parts to the first. And he's killing it. He really is good. He started managing, uh, a couple different dealerships for the owner, and then he sits down at a Denny's, and the owner is like, hey, you know, I know the plan was for you to run things, but it turns out that my sons need to run it. Sorry. Uh, and he, like, you know, on his heels. He eventually find somebody else to buy one dealership and that becomes two dealerships and eventually 40 something dealerships. And he buys the Utah Jazz. And so that is like, you know, the good story. He developed some skill. He really was actually on that last point.
Can you clarify? Okay. So he really gets to know the parts better. Yes. Anyone else. Can you actually just operationalize that a little bit more. What he contributed to the market so to speak, such that either in his first place of employment or at his own entrepreneurship, He goes. They go from 961 to 1 or whatever it is.
Yeah. So I think it's, you know, when you're dealing with customers, it's being really responsive, understanding what they need and just, you know, being hardworking and diligent and delivering and, um, having a reputation for, okay, if I have, um, some need, I'm going to go to this guy. And it grew over time. And that's one, you know, broader lesson of the book is that it takes a long time. Um, you know, in contrast to the Silicon Valley, move fast and break things. It's off and move slow and make things. It takes decades, often. So that's that's kind of, in my view, Larry Miller's The Good Case. But the more troublesome case, um, where you have more regulatory capture or other, um, auto dealers who are quite protected and I can go in the we can go in the history of auto dealers if you want, but the short version is like they have a bunch of legal protections that were meant to protect the little guy from big manufacturers of auto companies. You know, Ford or GM might put a bunch of cars on your lot and that was hurting the small guy. So over, uh, series of decades, there are a bunch of franchise protections. And then if you go forward to, say, 2008, when we had, uh, financial crisis. Yeah, you know, the auto team had, uh, deal with the situation where Chrysler, for example, had three times as many dealerships as Toyota, even though they sold the same number of cars. And so they had all these extra dealers. And why did they have them? It's because they have a bunch of protections where you have to pay them off. You have to pay three years of rent and a bunch of things that really don't make sense. And so there's a lot of protections from local competition. There are pretty sweet deals that were in the name of protecting the little guy that don't make a lot of economic sense. And so I think some of it is rents, uh, in the form of the state laws that help dealers. And both of those things are true. And that's partly why things are complex, is that you can have stories like Larry Miller, and you can have regional auto dealers that are getting more money than they probably would, because they're getting paid a lot for warranties, for example, that are a little more than what the market would would pay them otherwise. And they have a local monopoly, sort of like you can, you know, you can't sell the Toyota within a geographic boundary of the existing dealership. And the manufacturer is very limited power to affect that competition. Any way to introduce. So there's really barriers to entry. That's a big part of it. And then they sell these ancillary services in the dealership where the markups are much higher than on just the immediate sale of the car. So you know, the warranty repair, the financing is a big source of profits, I think, for the dealers. And it's like, well, you know, are you going to buy the you can get the loan at the dealer, you're going to go to a bank separately when you're buying the car. They're on the lot. So that's like first mover advantage to sell all these ancillary services. I think it's a huge part of like the margins and the profitability of these dealerships. And as the economy grows you still this like fixed and trim, you know, and like you can't get a car through any other pipe other than through that pipe, and so they just grab a chunk as it's passing through.
Yeah, this was really interesting to me in the book because we're used to thinking about antitrust or competition issues as these like big national scale companies. But actually you talk a lot about sort of regionalized, um, competition problems, which was very interesting. I have a bunch of other questions, but I want to ask you one more just on sort of local regulatory protections and loopholes. Can you talk about beer distribution? Because that was a really interesting thing, one to me.
We were very amused by the beer distribution. So one of the things for folks that are listening, if you're like walking, like I walked from my home to the office and, uh, passed by a truck that says Budweiser on the side. You know, Budweiser doesn't own that truck, a distributor does. You look on the door and there's the name of the distributor you might see raise or somebody like that. Yeah, these are incredibly wealthy businesses that sit between manufacturers and end users, like bars, restaurants, groceries, and so on. And depending on the state, similar to the auto dealers or these franchise protections. So you have to pass through the distributors and these way these contracts get protected. So then, you know, as demand for beer grows, the distributors just sort of like in the middle, this middle tier was again sort of protecting, you know, the little guy from the macro brewers. Yeah. But over time these little guys have become really big guys. Um, and, you know, the idea was you didn't want the big brewers to dominate distribution as well as the actual selling of the product. That's right. And it sort of emerged post prohibition as this, like sort of system. Let's avoid this is a situation where, um, the manufacturers have so much power over the rest of the system in terms of what is available, but then the distributors end up having just a ton of power and they get, um, super rich. They show up with in the jet data a lot. And there was this like conference in San Antonio, and the mayor called the, um, Lobbyist who organized the conference just like that. You know, this is amazing. I never seen so many jets at the San Antonio airport as when the beer wholesalers were there.
You mentioned a disagreement or a different interpretation than Capitol picking in size, etc.. What is the essence of the conclusions or the things that you've discovered that you feel like someone coming at the wealth inequality question from their work. You would have a different interpretation of it, but we've never actually had either one of them on the show, so maybe we'll get them on, uh, soon, because we should. But what is the sort of the crux of how you see things differently?
So we joke that our book is kind of like picketing with people. If you happen to read capital, which is a difficult read, I think we actually also joke that our book we wrote so people could read it, not just collect it, because that book, it's a really good read. I'm just going to reiterate that. Yeah. So it's like we're going to have, you know, that book is like the top 1% of this kind of nameless, faceless entity, this blob. Um, and they're just generating capital income. And so you kind of are meant to think about almost Gilded Age monopolists who have massive companies and are just collecting the rents or the capital income or the interest or whatever. And, um, it's it's about this accumulation of massive troves of wealth that are generating this almost passive return. And we're saying, well, actually, when you look at the data, it's actually more this like these millions of private business owners who are actively owning and operating businesses, in large case, they're concentrated portfolios. Really, the business is kind of the main asset. And, um, and it's not really just financial capital. It's kind of like human capital is a pretty important part of it, broadly defined. It's sort of like the networks, the experience. Maybe it's like having access to the contract or the special like market position. That's an important asset. Um, but that's like sort of a different story about who's really rich. That's sort of a this more active kind of human. And yeah, there could be an ugly of the humans there, but that's kind of the distinction, I think, that we draw.
Since you talk to a lot of these people, I have a sort of anthropological question. But do they see themselves as wealthy because we touched on this in the beginning. But so much of these, you know, everything is sort of like shaded as small business ownership entrepreneurs, you talk to a lot of people who, like did start from humble beginnings, but now have millions and millions of dollars. Do they do they see themselves as the rich, as the 1%?
Usually they they have a pretty good idea. Often it's because it takes so long to get wealthy. They're, you know, they've gone through the life cycle. So one of my favorite characters that we talk to in the book is Dick Portillo. And he started he grew up in the projects of Chicago, the Cabrini Greens, and he didn't know how to make a hotdog and then started a hotdog company and was washing the dishes by hand because there wasn't running water. And he ended up over decades selling a lot of hot dogs to become a billionaire. And I think it's a really useful example because it shows like, well, you have to have market power. To be a billionaire. No. You can actually sell hot dogs to super competitive industry. And then is he rich? Well, he has a really big penthouse. He's got a yacht called Top Dog. Um, which is just a great name for the yacht. Yeah. Um, and, you know, so it depends on when you're talking to him. I think when he's watching it, you know, when you find him in his 30s washing stuff by hand, he does not feel rich. But when he's got a yacht and, you know, a huge IPO that they couldn't send him a check, um, because his bank account wasn't sophisticated enough to take the check when he was just like, I'm getting on my yacht and leaving, like I think he knew. Um, so it basically the short answer is it depends on when, uh, in their lifetimes, because it does really take a long time. Like there's another woman who, um, we talked to. She spent two decades making frozen quiche. Oh, yeah. The quiche lady. Yeah. And she, you know, it was pretty tenuous for a long time before she got some big contracts to go through. And so, you know, I don't think she felt that wealthy from her business. Like, it seemed like it was losing money until it really wasn't.
This is maybe more of, like, a sociological question and and, uh, economic question, but I think it kind of relates to who feels rich and who doesn't. When I think about, like, coastal rich, and by that I mean like San Francisco or New York City rich. I often think about heads of, like, really gigantic, heavily bureaucratic, layered, hierarchical organizations. You know, I imagine someone like a Jamie Dimon or CEO, their numerous layers, a they're often like very educated. And they're also going to be just like numerous layers of the organization. And there will be people who work at JPMorgan or whatever who never interact ever with the CEO, etc. whereas in my mind, the sort of everyday millionaires, the head of the, uh, beverage distributor and the car dealership. In my mind, I suspect these organizations are like that. CEO is probably much more in touch on some level on a day to day basis with the mass of like the workers at that organization, maybe on the floor with them, many cases like at a dealership, etc.. Uh, and I'm curious if that resonates and whether that's sort of like, you know, when we think about sort of, you know, someone who owns a yacht is obviously mega-rich, but on the, um, that's unquestionable. But also they're just on a day to day basis.
I suspect they have a lot more connection and interaction with capital workers than many of the coastal rich do.
Yeah. So like Dick Portillo, when he was growing the business, they didn't have offices for the managers because he wanted the people to be on the floor all the time. So there was a bit of a marine ethic that he kind of brought to running this business. And, you know, he was there for opening. He was like very detail oriented, you know, investors. He owned all the real estate. He tried to take no debt. Reinvesting every dollar. You know, he had kids, but like it was pretty clear when he was moving into his 80s, this is not a family business. This is Dick's business. And there's kind of a relentlessness to that character that I think we see in many of the stories. The first generation founders look like that.
One thing that stood out to me is, like, all of these people don't seem to have hobbies. They hate.
Yeah. I hate how John O'Shaughnessy is so funny. The doctor, John, he's not a doctor who started the $5 electric toothbrush, um, and sold that business after having sold other businesses before and probably had enough money before starting that business. But he tried to take up golf from Florida. He's, like, so bored by it. Maybe not a great swing, I don't know, but, um, went back and started this $5 toothbrush business in the dot-com era, which is exactly the kind of company you would think would make you hundreds of millions of dollars during the dot-com era. It's $95 electric toothbrushes. Um, but that's what he did because he just couldn't sit still. Um, I mean, he had a personality, clearly, because even as a kid, his first business was, um...
Don't tell your son. Not going to media.
No, no, no resources here. His first business to his parents is took, like one of those painting classes where you, like, have models come in and do the, like the nude paintings. And they hid the paintings from like five, seven year old, I don't know, like, uh, in the attic. And he would charge a nickel to his friends to look at the paintings.
That was the best margins of any business you ever start.
I can't, you can't, uh, he can't listen to this episode.
