Welcome to the Vergecast, the flagship podcast of rolling your own MCP server and running cloud code to do absolutely everything in your entire life. Is that possible? Is it a thing a real person can do? Who's to say? But it seems like a cool future and I'm ready to get into it. I'm your friend David Pierce and I just got home from CES where we saw tons of gadgets. Thank you to everybody who came out for the live show last week. Thank you to everybody who has written in and sent us all the cool stuff that you saw in Vegas. CES is a blast. But now I'm home and it's time for my favorite annual tradition of detangling all of the junk that got stuck in my bag over the course of CES. I come home with SD cards full of pictures I need to offload. I come home with just like a bunch of weird swag that I don't remember picking up, but just like things from booths that end up in my backpack. I don't know. I have a lot of stickers. Do you want stickers? I have nowhere to put stickers. CES is like full chaos. And then I try to come home and just clean a little bit. And it's like now the year starts. I always think of CES as not like the beginning of a new year, but the end of last year. Now I come home and we start it all over. And here we are very excited about it.
Today on the show, we're going to talk a little bit about CES. We're going to follow up with Sean Hollister about the LEGO Smart Brick, which I think was pretty undeniably the story of CES and certainly the device of CES. But there's something interesting going on with what LEGO is up to and what this thing means that we're just going to dive into more. Then Casey Newton, our friend and the editor of Platformer, is going to come on the show and we're going to talk productivity. He is one of my favorite people to talk to about to-do lists and note-taking apps and all kinds of stuff about how we try to be more useful and get more stuff done without making ourselves crazy. We're going to talk about that. We have a really fun hotline question coming up. All of that is coming up in just a second. But first, do you know that feeling when you just have too much crap on your desk and you're like, I got to get rid of all of this or I'm going to lose my mind? That's where I am right now. I'm going to clean up. This is the Vergecast. We'll be right back.
All right, we're back. Sean Hollister is here. Hi, Sean.
I'm here. How was your CES? Did you survive? Are you feeling okay?
It was exhausting, but like every year, almost every single year, I'm not sick yet. I'll be sick this next week, not the week I was there.
That sounds right. It's like it's just a slow... I always think of it as like I used to always get sick after finals in college where it was like you go and go and go and then the minute your body relaxes it's like, oh god, this is awful. And I feel like that's the mode I'm heading into for the rest of January and I'm very excited about it. So you were all over I think what was undeniably and kind of surprisingly like the story of CES which was the Lego smart brick. So I feel personally and professionally obligated here to spend some time talking about the smart brick. Were you surprised that this a) existed and b) became the phenomenon that it was? I want to get into what it is in a minute, but like did you know this thing was coming?
All the diehard Lego fans knew this was coming because they released this thing in some markets two years ago in 2024. They piloted this thing in some undisclosed location in the world with a Lego city set and they're like, 'Hey, look, we've got a smart brick' to a very small audience that they could publicly test it in that market. And so there were patents, there were like drawings of these X-wing fighters blasting away with Lego bricks. They were all over the internet, but it's part of like this fairly small community of Lego fans that know about this. And so when I got there, I knew it was going to be there for sure because Lego never comes to CES. So if they were going to trot something out, it had to be this brick that already leaked. What I was surprised was that it was good.
Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, let's back up a little. What is a smart brick?
A smart brick is for the first time a Lego piece of electronics that is actually shaped like a normal Lego brick. If you know Lego sizes, it's 2x4. It has two studs one direction on the top. It has four studs the other direction. And it is a brick, meaning it is one of the tall things. It is not a thin, you know, plate. And within that, there is a lot of tiny computing going on. There's a custom ASIC chip so that it can run in all kinds of different programs. The programs come on NFC tiles. So this is, you know, your tap to pay your credit card at the store. This is that technology baked into a 2x2 flat tile of Lego with the NFC tag in there. You put that on top of the brick or you bring the tag near the brick and all of a sudden this smart brick starts running a different program. And that program means it can be an X-wing fighter. All sorts of things.
So, this is like a stupidly pedantic way of asking this question, but I think I didn't understand what you just said until just now. So, the smart brick is always the same thing. There is only smart brick, right? It has all the stuff, all the things. There's just one version of the thing, and then you basically decide what it does with this NFC card. So I could buy 10 smart bricks and then I can use each one of those 10 to be 10 different things depending on like the NFC tag that I tap to it.
Exactly. Each one of these.
Very clever. And it took me... I saw the thing and it took me a couple days to get my head around that too, that the brick is not an X-wing brick. It is like the Lego Mario figure. This is the end. Like people are like, 'Oh, they're just doing Lego Mario again.' And the Lego Mario figure was a giant brick of a figure that was Mario or Peach or Luigi. Giant brick of a figure that was only ever Mario or Luigi or Peach, whatever it looked like, which I would say like in a very real way sort of violates the entire spirit of LEGO.
Yes. And so people are like, you're doing this all over again. Now you're going to have an X-wing brick. But no, it's just a 2x4 brick like the 2x4 bricks you've been using for ages to build Lego. It's the most common brick. The one that started Lego basically was this brick. And but now it is semi-transparent and inside of it is all of this computing. And so it is the computer chip. It is the NFC reader. It is a color sensor. It is inertial IMU sensors like in your smartphone. So it can detect the direction and position. But also it is a Bluetooth mesh network. So if you have multiple bricks near each other, not only does it know that there are bricks somewhere nearby, it knows exactly where they are in relation to the other brick. It knows that it is this number of centimeters away. It knows which direction it is pointed. It knows whether it is pointed at one another or away from each other or any combination of things in 3D space. There's a lot going on here that we've not seen, not only in Lego, but in tiny computers this size that talk to each other.
Interesting. Okay. So, this thing has been relatively controversial for a couple of reasons I want to get into, but I will say what you just described to me spiritually seems very Lego. That actually what this is is not some defined thing that does some defined thing. That it is just sort of a bundle of stuff that you can in theory do lots of different things with. Like that feels at a very high level kind of right to me. Does it hit you the same way?
It does. And like 90... I'm like 90% there. I'm like 90% to this is just going to be part of the Lego system where you can take things and you can reconstruct them in all kinds of configurations. The 10% where I'm not is the Lego company isn't saying that you can program this brick yourself. They're saying that like the Lego Mario sets, there will be these predefined NFC tiles and when you bring your brick next to it or you put the tile on top of it, it will do still a fairly small number of relatively predetermined things. And the predetermined things can be so specific that there is some merit to our adults saying, why the heck is Lego like taking away the creativity?
Like what are some of the things they've said out loud that you can do?
One of the most attention-grabbing things you can do with this, with a Lego Star Wars set, is you can sit the emperor down on his throne in the throne room on the Death Star. And when he sits down, he'll like activate the smart brick behind him on the back of his throne and it will play the imperial march. Not the emperor's theme, mind you, but the imperial march. Okay, this theme, you know it. Okay, it'll play this. And I'm like, well, I can just do that with my mouth. You'll have the X-wing and you'll make the blast sound. I can do that with my mouth. A lot of adults are saying this like, why do we need that? But some of them are not nearly so predetermined. There's even in the Star Wars realm, there is a cantina band set. Okay. So, you put the brick onto the cantina and you push a little lever back and forth which rocks the brick back and forth and it also spins, you know, the cantina players and they kind of like look like they're playing their saxophones, their sci-fi saxophones, and it will speed up and slow down the sounds that they are making to the speed that you are rocking. And if you place minifigures, like you put Darth Vader on there, he'll like start to do some spoken word to like sing along with the song or something like that. And so that is more of a creative experience. It's still relatively predetermined, but it's still like you are controlling this. This is something where we actually have smarts. It's not just it plays a tune when you drop it on a panel.
So, I feel like what you just described is kind of the whole debate around Lego in general right now. Because I think the Lego that you and I grew up with, at least the Lego that I grew up with, was just a big bucket of tiles that you could just do whatever you want with, right? Like I just had it... we bought some Lego sets, but even those eventually just went into the bucket, right? And it was just you go build stuff.
I have a huge bin, a huge Rubbermaid.
Yeah. And that was the beauty of it. But like Lego both sort of culturally and like very much as a business has leaned into these more expensive, more intricate, more detailed... It's like modeling almost now where you're actually doing the huge number of steps required to build an $850 Millennium Falcon or these huge intricate sets. Like that's what Lego is now. And people hate that on exactly the same terms that they hate what you just described, right? Like this is just the Lego... It's not a new argument. I mean, you could argue that it goes all the way back to the '90s.
Yes. My first Lego set was a blue bucket and you tilted it outside or you tilted it upside down and out poured 2x4 bricks like this smart red bucket and all you could do was recombine these into various shapes. And they started developing more and more specialized elements as you go. Now, what LEGO fans who love specialized elements will say is they can be repurposed as all kinds of different things. Your Lego hot dog. It looks like a little hot dog. You can put it in a bun and it's a Lego hot dog. And so you don't need to build a Lego hot dog because they've done it for you. But that same hot dog is also the stem of a flower. There's a Lego frog piece. Everybody loves the frog piece. It's this tiny frog and you can put it on plants. But if you take lots of these pink frogs and you stick them onto a bonsai tree, as Lego, the company, the Lego Group itself has done, they are the Sakura flower petals popping out of this thing. There's also a brown one, a brown frog at the back of my castle run right underneath where the king is going to take a... It just drops down there. It's just a black lump of poop. You turn the frog around, look, it's a perfect lump of poop. What can I say?
So LEGO's argument, and the argument has been, that these specialized pieces aren't as specialized as they seem because they can be repurposed in all kinds of ways. And that goes back to the '90s when they developed a... I spoke to the creator of this one. They developed a video camera for the Lego space sets and it looks like one of those old school camcorders. You put it on like your shoulder...
News. Yeah, the local news.
Yeah, exactly. One of those and they found what kids immediately did and also some of the set designers inside LEGO did was they turned it around and made it into a blaster rifle.
And so that was one of the first Lego guns. One of the first Lego blasters. You flip it around one way, it looks like a video camera. That was very... that was in the '90s. And people have been debating that ever since. The other thing they've been debating ever since is when you build a set that is supposed to look like something, a spaceship, a castle, do you leave it together forever on your shelf or does it go into that bin to be recombined by your kids, by adults, into new kinds of things. And I have sets from my childhood that I do leave together forever that I do not want my kids to pull apart because once they go into that bin, they're going to get... pieces of them are going to get damaged. There's some like fragile like long translucent green like laser beam kind of pieces. And I've seen what happens to those. Those get bent. They get knocked in half. They're not... It's not great. All kinds of translucent pieces get scratched. So my stuff doesn't all go back into the bin. Some of the diehards say no, everything should be taken apart when you're done with it. Other folks are like, 'Things should stay together.' And so once as the sets are getting pricier and pricier and pricier, now they cost 650, 850 for a Millennium Falcon, people are saying, 'Oh, well, now we're being incentivized to keep them together in this one form forever because it's so expensive and it's so time-consuming to rebuild.' I don't know. It's been around forever, this argument.
Yeah. I mean, and I think to some extent there is a bit of a like do whatever you want thing, right? Like I know people who put together the thousand-piece puzzles and then like keep them together and frame them on the wall. And I know other people who put them back in the box and like, well, we did that and then never again. And I think that's kind of the way this is supposed to work. But I think the thing that is different about the smart brick to me is that it feels like this question of should it eventually be user programmable is like the question because the thing that works about Lego bricks is I think a thing that Lego has cleverly been very good about is like there are not fundamentally lots of different kinds of Legos, right? Like you can kind of put everything in the bucket and most of it will fit together. It's not like they had some brand new standard that they invented three years ago that now all the old ones don't work.
Yeah. Yeah. You don't get that with software. You just don't, right? Like the idea that everyone is going to be able to use this, all the pieces are going to go together, this is going to be super workable and all you have to do is just stick the thing on top of the thing and it's going to be fine. Like you and I have used enough software to know that that is an impossible goal. It's a good and valuable goal to make perfect, flawless, usable software, but you just can't do it. And so if I'm Lego, I'm torn in this thing where it's like, okay, we want this to be open and programmable and sort of in the spirit of build and rebuild and make everything whatever you want it to be. But also, we need a thing that works. And doing both of those things, I would say, is like damn near impossible. And so I wonder where LEGO is going to decide to land here. I asked them a bit about this. I asked Tom Donaldson, who's one of their SVPs of like a creative play lab. You could call him a head of innovation over at LEGO, but he's that kind of a guy. And so he says that he knows people will want these bricks to be programmable, user programmable, that you can instantly...
Oh, yeah. He wasn't trying to like pretend that wasn't a thing.
And he told me that this isn't where they wanted to start.
And he suggested it to me that before they... what's the quote? 'Before we get to a plan like that' is the quote. He wants to figure out how to make it very safe and hack-resistant and so on. And I appreciated that. He's like, maybe this is going to happen to me because I really want it to happen. I want them to be programmable. I don't want to have to rely on Lego to build each new set of tiles and programs for this and then I have to buy them all and make it a kind of collect-them-all thing. But, you know, but Lego might want that for profit's sake. I figure maybe they're going to see what kinds of legs it has first, see how much money they can make off the collect-them-all mentality before they allow something like that to happen because I don't buy the argument that this needs to be hack-resistant or something like that. There's no internet connection here. These bricks, they couldn't possibly with the kind of battery they have in here manage to have some kind of persistent connection to the internet. The only thing that you're going to be hacking them to do is not pay Lego money for things. So, possibly that's what they mean by hack-resistant. The idea that they need to be like safe. I don't buy that at all. But yeah, I could see maybe they want to protect their profits. They don't want people to like folks did with the Lego Dimensions. So, there was this game in 2015, Lego Dimensions. I don't know if you remember this, but it was a video game where all kinds of Lego and brand worlds could meet. You have Sonic the Hedgehog jumping into this Lego Dimensions multiverse. And then you have Doctor Who, and Sonic the Hedgehog will say to Doctor Who, the Doctor, you named a screwdriver after me, because it's a Sonic screwdriver in Sonic. Anyhow, so those kinds of things happened there. Maybe those kinds of collaborations will happen here, too, with the smart bricks. But what happened was each of these NFC figurines you could drop onto the platform and have them magically appear in the video game. People figured out that NFC tags are fairly easy to read, fairly easy to clone. So you could just buy a stack of NFC tags off Amazon, use your Android smartphone to program them to be all the things, and then you didn't have to pay Lego and their toy makers all that money. You didn't have to do that necessarily. People set up the Flipper Zero so they can just like, oh yeah, cycle the next thing. Okay, tap, tap. Okay, now I've got all of that stuff going. I don't think that's the reason Lego Dimensions wasn't a huge success. But I could see them wanting to be a little cautious of that. But if we're just looking at this as like what is the best experience for people who want to play, that thing you just described strikes me as the best possible outcome, right? Like yes, let's get every kid a Flipper Zero and let them do weird stuff with their... I'm serious. Like I think this is a good thing. And that is the kind of...
I think we live in this world now where like I don't know. I read all of this thinking about my three-year-old kid who was like just getting into Legos and the competition is not like with Legos or better versions of his imagination in Legos. The competition is with like Spidey and His Amazing Friends sitting on the couch watching television or playing with Legos. And I think this small gesture towards how do we make it a little more exciting and a little more interactive in order to get you doing the work with your hands and playing with things, like I think I'm good making that trade, right? Like and I think there's a whole generation of kids who has been raised on like Minecraft and Roblox and a whole generation of parents who would be thrilled if those games required doing more things with your hands. And so Lego trying to find a reasonable middle ground there feels right to me. And like let's raise a bunch of kids to be like low-stakes hardware hackers. Like hell yeah.
They were saying so many of the right things there for parents who are worried about screen time, like how they very decidedly made sure this didn't have any screens in it because there were like designs floated for computer bricks with little screens, things like that. I've actually covered some of them on The Verge. And how it doesn't have AI in it. They were like, no, there was no AI in this product and so on and so forth. They talked a lot about how the play that they have designed here was very inspired by watching kids do various things with the bricks. Like these bricks are smart enough that you could have it so theoretically you could have it so that when the X-wing fighter is pointed directly at Darth Vader's TIE fighter and you press the button right then, what it is with a certain range, since it knows the orientation, since it knows the... might be the only time that it hits with its blaster. But they're like, 'No, kids don't play like this. We're watching kids play with this.' They point their stuff in all directions, and they still want the blasters to be able to hit one another. So, what we're going to do instead is we're going to have it keep score so that it can be fair to the kids to know how many times they blasted versus how many times they were hit. And then, you know, they show the X-wing diving into the ground turret and just knocking it over. They're like, 'Yeah, kids do this. They just knock one Lego set over with another set. They don't want to have to keep blasting it until it explodes.' Sometimes they'll just be like knock it over and they want that to register as an explosion and so it does in the set. So they were saying a lot of the right things but even so I've heard so many commenters who were like, I get how it works and I still think this is wrong. I still think this is like overwriting and taking away from kids' imaginations. I showed my wife... I stuck her in a VR headset and I let her watch a 15-minute demo of exactly how the brick works. I let her watch the entire demo.
You're a true monster, Sean.
I did. I did. And she watched the whole thing and she's like, wow, it's awesome to like be there and get the whole demo. Like I was there in person at CES, which by the way, I might put on The Verge. And yet at the end of it, she was still like, I don't think I need to buy my kids this. So they may still have an uphill battle on their hands.
Yeah. Yeah. I do think there is something that just immediately strikes you as again like where we started at the beginning, the sort of against the spirit of the whole thing. And that I think what you were just describing about sort of the power and specificity of the thing again feels to me like kind of this whole question, right? Where I think to me at least there's no question that just from a pure technology level, the smart brick is kind of remarkable. Like you kept going back and kept discovering new things that this brick can do, including some pretty incredible sort of self-awareness features that this thing has. Like it's a really impressive little tiny piece of technology. It reminds me sort of of a Raspberry Pi, right? And then it's just like here's just a bundle of stuff and now we have to figure out what to do with it. And I think that from LEGO's perspective is the thing, right? Because it's what powers do you give people? What do you force upon them? Which I think is what people are reacting to. This sense that like I'm going to go to Target and instead of buying something I can imagine, I'm going to be buying a set of features one at a time that LEGO is then going to charge me $10 a month for because everybody knows how this goes over time.
I agree that would suck and I think it is a perfectly plausible outcome that I'm going to have to buy 20 smart bricks if I want to do 20 things and that will feel bad and LEGO should feel bad. But I also think there's a world where this is the right kind of thing for LEGO to have done.
I think they made so many right decisions here. One of the ones that I think is the most key to convincing like long-term Lego fans is the color sensor in this brick. And this certainly isn't the first time a brick has had a color sensor. I mean, Lego robots have had them for many years. You'd like point it down at the ground with your Lego robot. And so when it runs over a certain kind of color, you can be like, 'Oh yeah, you should stop the robot moving before it goes over the river that you've built or something like that.' But in the X-wing and TIE fighter sets, for example, when you press a button to blast with your TIE fighter, that is not putting a smart tag near a brick to be like, 'Hey, look, it's a tap-to-pay interaction.' It's not that. Instead, what you are doing is you are raising a little red flap over the color sensor. And so that is using a traditional plastic brick that is red to be like that is the fire thing to do. And when you put a blue tile over this color sensor on the end of your fuel pump, then it starts the refueling sound in a little mini-game thing with the brick. So it's like, okay, now I'm refueling my X-wing. These are regular Lego bricks that are interacting with the smart bricks. Not something you have to pay extra for, nothing, no NFC, it's just color. And so there are many colors of Lego brick. You can have each one of those colors theoretically do a different thing when it interacts with the brick on whatever you build. And I love that that works. I also love that the bricks don't need to detect anything other than a tile to know what kind of a set it's in. So that X-wing tile, the sounds it makes, the blaster sounds it makes are not like Star Wars blaster sounds. They are not like obviously this is Star Wars and nothing else. So I can take that tile and I can stick it on any of the Lego ships I have ever built and now they can be an interactive blasting mini-game kind of a flying spaceship because with these interactions because it now knows that it's a spaceship. Not specifically an X-wing. Any of my spaceships can now be an interactive spaceship if I drop the brick and that tile on them. So that the play with traditional bricks is important and I hope they emphasize that throughout and do a lot more with that.
Yeah, that's a good... I mean again that stuff feels right. I think there is a thing where Lego has gotten the benefit of the doubt for a long time by being a company sort of invested in the right thing and then a lot of people who have watched a lot of tech companies lose the benefit of the doubt for perfectly valid reasons that it's like we just all have to look at Lego and be like don't screw this up. I know how you can screw this up to make money for yourselves and you have to just not do it Lego and if you don't it might be awesome.
That's it. We really won't be. Yeah, I'm excited about it. For me personally, I just want things to make noises. Like, they sound so stupid, but I've never been a person who is like flying the thing around making the noises, but I'm like happy to play with them otherwise. And I just if they would make the noise for me so that I don't have to make the noise for my three-year-old.
Is it that you're an adult or were you not making the noises back then either?
I was never making the noises. I like... I'm good at dialogue. Like, you want to give me like a long scene of all the characters talking to each other, I got you. But then it's like, do we need the ship to make noise? That's never been my thing. So, if we could just solve that and I can get back to like the warring battles of speeches between the emperor and Luke, then we're good. That's all I...
Excellent. Excellent. We should... You should type out some dialogue for us for my battle scene with my kids. It'll be great.
We can do that. All right, we got to take a break. Sean, thank you as always.
Thanks for having me. We'll be right back.
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Welcome back. So, it's the beginning of a new year, and I think now is a good time to talk productivity. This is when everybody's doing New Year's resolutions. This is when everybody is trying to figure out new systems to be a little more productive and a little less nuts and just make everything make a little more sense. So, I'm going to bring on Casey Newton, the editor of Platformer and my former colleague at The Verge, who is one of my favorite people to talk to about this stuff. Like me, Casey is always trying new apps and trying new systems and doing weird stuff just to try and make his digital life make a little more sense. And over the last couple of years, actually, as far as I understand, Casey has done less of that because he's found things that have started to work. So, he's going to come on the show and he's going to tell me all the stuff that he's doing that works and I'm going to tell him about all of the new apps that I've been trying that are making me crazier than ever. It's going to be very fun. I'm very excited about it. Let's get into it. Casey Newton, welcome back to the Vergecast.
Great to be here, David. It's been a minute. How are you?
I'm doing great. Thank you. I'm excited for a new year to begin and to get things done. Are you like a New Year's person? Do you like take a... do the like January 1 reset and try to become a better Casey every 12 months?
I really am. Like for over a decade now, I've woken up on New Year's Day. I've gotten a big coffee. I've sat down with a journal. I've like looked back on the year that was and I've said like what are sort of the big things I'm going after this year? And I have to say I credit it with like actually getting a lot of things done over the last decade. So yeah, New Year's is really maybe my favorite time of year.
Okay, that's awesome. So actually let's just talk through that process first because I have I would say never once done successfully the thing that you just described. And I aspire to be the kind of person who does that thing. So like literally walk me through that process that you do every year. You get a big cup of coffee. That's step one.
Number one, big cup of coffee. I mostly would do this in Day One, the Mac journaling app. That's so great. I keep a journal just kind of as a daily practice, which I think maybe we'll get into later, but this one, you know, 10 years or so ago, I started calling this the annual board meeting with myself. And it would sort of be like, okay, self, like let's take a look back at the past four quarters. You know, I would usually have some things that I was trying to get done that year. So, I would just kind of go bit by bit and say like, 'Okay, did we eat less sugar last year?' Absolutely not. Okay, so we're going to give that one a thumbs down. But you know, I want to like launch my own business this year and like I did that, right? So, it's kind of cool because I'm not really a big believer in resolutions. Like I'm not really someone who believes that you can just like use willpower to deliver you into the life of your dreams. But I do think if there are two or three things that are big that you want to get done in a year, if you write those down and like look at that list a lot, you will increase your odds of getting those things done there.
Yeah. It's like what is the less woo-woo version of manifesting? You know, it's like whatever that is, I think it's real.
