Hello and welcome to the Vergecast, the flagship podcast of none other than Folding Phones. I'm Jake Kastrenakes, executive editor of The Verge. Joining me today, editors Dom Preston. Dom, how's it going?
Good. I'm tired, but I got a glass of wine, so I'm ready to go.
Oh, perfect for a podcast. And editor Cam Faulkner.
How's it going? I'm not day drinking, but I kind of wish I was.
It's 8 p.m. here. Yeah, it's not day drinking. I'm night drinking. I'm allowed.
Oh, it starts at 8 over there. Okay.
Um, Apple just wrapped up its big hardware event, the iPhone Duo launch, the long-awaited foldable phone. We're going to talk about everything. This is actually a fascinating event, even beyond the fact that Apple now has a foldable phone. Um, we're going to talk about all of that. There's the iPhone, the iPhone 18, 18 Pro and Pro Max with their variable aperture camera. Um, there's two new Apple Watches, the Series 12 and Ultra 4, and um, sort of two new AirPods 5 models, too. There's also a new Apple CEO, and that's actually where I want to start. Uh, this is the first event for John Turnis as Apple CEO. He actually came out before the video started. So for the folks who were in the Steve Jobs Theater in Cupertino, he spoke for a few minutes, said some words that were, I would say, similar to what he said at the start of the event video, but not one for one. Um, kind of introduced his philosophy on Apple and then did the same thing for the video that went out to the public. So that's where I want to start. Uh, Dom, I'm curious. You've watched a million Apple event videos. How do you feel that John Turnis did in his first presentation as Apple CEO?
Yeah, I think he handled it well. I mean, it's always going to be a kind of daunting thing stepping into this for the first time and this was a big launch in a lot of ways as you've already said, lots of hardware, a big new category for Apple. This launch really had to go right. Um, I think he handled it pretty straightforwardly. He kind of kept things pretty simple and understated. I don't think they made a really, really big kind of song and dance of it's the Turnis show. Everybody be excited about John Turnis. Like they kind of know the average person is just like, 'Oh, cool. It's the new Mr. Apple. Let's move on and find out about some phones, please.'
Very much. And I think we've got a lot to talk about when it comes to Turnis. But uh actually, we got some breaking news right at the top of the podcast, which is that editor-in-chief Nilay Patel is also about to join us. He's there in person in Cupertino and he has had a chance to look at the iPhone Duo in person and give us a little bit of uh some impressions on what that is like. So, um he's still getting set up, but I'm very excited. Stay tuned. He will be with us in uh just a moment or so. Um so, let's I guess start by just teeing up the Duo before Nilay gets here, which is uh this is Apple's first folding phone. Dom, you've touched I think most of the folding phones on Earth. Um, tell me where where are the big differences? Where are the big similarities? Just let's go high level for the moment.
Yeah. Okay. So, high level, I think the really obvious thing is this looks a lot like Samsung's Galaxy Z Fold 8, uh, which launched this summer. And that's partly just the big thing, which is this has that same passport size and shape, uh, design that we kind of all knew Apple was bringing. And we've seen Huawei, Samsung, and Xiaomi all introduce phones in that shape this year. And it kind of all looked like they were lining up because they knew what Apple had coming. That does seem to borne itself out. Um, but I think it's kind of similar to that Samsung phone in more ways than that because it's also a slightly lower spec device in some ways, particularly the cameras. You know, it's got the dual camera here and really once you dig into the details of the camera specs as well, this is not an iPhone Pro level camera setup. And it's the same on the Galaxy Z Fold 8. Samsung has the difference because it's got the Fold 8 and the Fold 8 Ultra. So, it has that distinguishing kind of point there in its lineup. But this is not Apple trying to say, 'Hey, this is the absolute best iPhone Pro model and it folds.' It's saying you can get a kind of base iPhone experience and it folds. But if what you really care about is cameras and pro features and maybe better battery life, you might want to go for one of the two 18 Pros we've launched alongside it. And Samsung has basically pulled the same kind of move with the way it set up its lineup.
Absolutely. So, we've got a 5.4-inch outer display. When you open it up, it's a 7.6-inch display. Like you said, it's sort of passport-sized. And it's in this interesting position where it's both leading the industry and everyone has beaten them because they all thought Apple was going there. I'm curious, Cam, you're I think not a folding phone person or at least have not touched all of them the way that Dom has. When you look at the iPhone Duo, does this look like an appealing shape to you? Right? Like is this a form factor that you can imagine feeling natural? Because I think that most humans have not held these. They're going to look at a photo and say, 'I can imagine myself using that and spending two grand on it or I can't.'
Yeah. You know, um you're right. I have not touched a lot of folding phones out there, but you know, this one seems appealing in its size. Like, it doesn't seem too big, which I guess I would like as someone who's only ever had like a slab phone. Um, you know, folding phones have existed in some shape or form for, you know, I guess over 5 years at this point. So, you know, landing on this form factor. Um, I'm sure there's been a lot of like uh test studies done to uh you know, the thumb movement across the screen like they've done for all of the phones out there. Like it has to be optimal like for Samsung and Apple to arrive at this form factor. So, it's appealing for me. Uh I'm not sure if it's the kind of thing that I would opt for over a slab phone at this point, but I definitely want to try it.
I mean, I'll say like when Apple's showing off these videos, I'm looking at this and it looks far and away like the most polished foldable I've ever seen. Um, that's in the videos, right? Apple is very good at that. You look at the photos, right? Allison, Eli, they're there in person. Um, Antonio is there. They're taking some phenomenal photos of these devices, and it still looks very, very good in person, but you can also see the areas where it looks like a typical foldable, right? Like there's still sort of that interesting little layer above the screen that's sort of holding it in place on the inside. It's still like a little big around the rails in ways that you know a standard slab phone is not. Um I do suspect that in some ways the software may be what sets it apart here. iOS just looks very, very good. Dom, you've used the Samsung Fold 8 very recently. How optimized have they made Android for this experience? Does it feel more powerful in the way that you need it to yet?
Yes and no. Um I think you've seen a spread of different responses to the way this is handled uh which is both the way different OEMs have handled it and the way Google and Android have handled it. And then I guess there's a third thing which is app developers. Um but Google I think has been taking very slow steps to figuring out multitasking and kind of tablet and foldable friendliness in Android itself and it's been a bit sluggish. We've seen some of the OEMs go a lot further. Samsung's got quite good multitasking on its folds. I'd actually say the leader in the category right now is OPPO and formerly OnePlus. Um they've kind of got this point where you can have very dynamic multitasking with multiple apps open which you can kind of slide around the screen so that some slide off the screen partly and you can pull them back in when you want and you can have floating windows as well so you can kind of have these dual layers of multitasking and you can have an awful lot going on at once and a lot of flexibility in the way you want to multitask. Uh what we've seen so far from the Duo is just two apps side by side. So in that sense, in that kind of 'I want to use two phones at once,' this looks a lot more basic than what we're seeing some of the Android OEMs do. I think the big change, I'd say there's been two big changes. One is on the OS level, we're seeing these much bigger switches to how Apple is changing iOS itself to suit this. We've got this kind of shift of pulling the dock and the Dynamic Island and the status bar all into the right-hand rail, this whole new right-hand rail which is a totally different way of building the OS. Google has not done anything that kind of comprehensive in changing the way Android should feel on a phone like this. So, I'm really curious to see how that feels and how it works. Apple kind of emphasized it's about making it feel consistent whether the phone is shut or open. All the controls are exactly where you expect them to be rather than shifting around in place. Um, and then the other big Apple thing is Apple's influence. They've already said they've got kind of big apps like Netflix on here who've already optimized their apps for the foldable screen and a lot more that they're going to work with to do that. Foldables have been niche. They have stayed niche. In 2025, they were 1.6% of all global smartphone sales. That is a small category of smartphone. And so, take that, throw in the fact that it's Android, and you can see why many app developers have basically said it is not worth my time to mess around with my code and figure out how to make my app work on the 1% of phones that might run it. But Apple comes in and everyone's going to jump.
And speaking of people coming in, we now have editor-in-chief Nilay Patel, who looks like he's right outside the Steve Jobs Theater. Nilay, thanks for joining us.
Look at this place. I'm usually in the broadcast risers over there, but they don't allow live streaming inside, so I came outside. How you doing?
We're doing great. We're just talking about the iPhone Fold. You're there in person. Uh what's the energy? What's the energy in the room?
The energy is a million people correcting you for calling it the iPhone Fold. It's the iPhone Duo, bro. Uh, it is really exciting. It is the, I mean, the two most shocking things about it. The screen is matte, which you could not tell from the video, but it is nano-texture, which they said several times. Um, so it is a matte display. And then, you know, they said that the crease was perceptually not there. Uh, and it's not there. You can feel it, but you cannot see it, which is pretty remarkable.
So, this is one thing I'm really curious about. They went into like they have the multi-layer display technology. Uh they have some Apple-designed coating to make it stronger, but ultimately Apple says the iPhone Duo. Uh you can use the Apple stylus or the Apple Pencil on it as a stylus. Does that mean that the inside screen is sturdier than all the other foldables that can crease with your fingernail? Because that's a big deal.
It is. It definitely feels sturdier. It's hard to tell if it is sturdier. Uh, notably, I did not see any demos with the pencil. I think they announced the pencil support coming later. So, nowhere in the room that anybody was using pencil that I saw anyway. Um, maybe we'll see it later today as we move around the campus, but I don't really know. Um, I did try to push it. You know, you can't try to break their stuff too much on launch day. So, I did give it a little scratch with the fingernail. Nothing happened, which is to be expected. It doesn't feel soft the way that like first-generation folding displays felt soft. Uh it feels pretty sturdy.
Uh the phone overall, right? You got a chance to hold it. They said it's the thinnest iPhone ever. When you open it up, how does it feel? How does it look? Does it feel and look like a more polished version of a foldable than the folds of the world?
In the software. Maybe not in the hardware. So in the hardware because they've done so much work with the hinge, you know, it's debatable. I think Dom could probably tell you more about the Android foldables of the world and like whether they've solved that inch problem which they all claim to have at this point. I know you just saw some at IFA. Um some of the newer ones at IFA.
Yes, it's polished. But the remarkable thing about it is that they have reworked iOS. So all the controls on iOS are on the side. You know, they can tell apps hinge position. The Netflix demo is really cool. Depending on how you move the hinge when you've got it in that sort of like L shape, the reflection on the bottom screen changes because Netflix is detecting the hinge position to manage the perceived reflection on the bottom. This is just silly Apple stuff, right? When you open it, the blur effect going from one screen to the other is very thoughtful. It is really not just opening into an iPad the way that at least my experience with Android phones is they open into Android tablets, right? That is opening into something meaningfully different than a regular iPhone. That said, I think we're going to see a bunch of apps that are lazy and just do the auto layouts and it is going to feel a lot more like an iPad. But of course, the demos we saw today are a little more thoughtful.
Did you have a chance to use it in both the slab mode and the unfolded mode? I'm curious how distinct that is. Is it just a standard iPhone on the outside?
Yeah, when it's folded, it's an iPhone. It's just 90% of the area of like a 17 Pro. So, it's definitely smaller and squatter. Um you know it but it's still an iPhone. It's just a smaller iPhone. The Verge looks great on it. I have to tell you like our cover is perfectly sized for that outer display. And then when you open it, I think a really interesting experience just now is it really rewards you for moving it around. So because it spends so much time thinking about its rotation centers, the angles of the screen, it kind of compels you to rotate it and fold it and move it around into all of its notes. Part of that could just be I'm in the demo environment and I wanted to try everything and that's very curious. But there's a part of this where you're going to unfold it and immediately rotate it into portrait because it is seamless to do it in a way that you know it I think it's just like reflects Apple's level of polishing.
Well, we were just talking Oh, go ahead. We were just talking about that with Dom about how uh the Android world has not quite polished the design yet and how multitasking is still a bit of a free-for-all. Um Dom, I'm curious. Did you see things on the iPhone that felt new in the software? Because to Nilay's point, that does feel like what is most polished here over all the other foldables of the world?
Yeah, totally. But I mean, really the same two things Nilay just called out, like the redesign to the iOS kind of dock and setup, just rethinking the whole structure of how you should access the OS and apps and the status bar and all this stuff to really make it be something that is not the same as an iPad, but is not the same as an iPhone either. Um, and that idea of apps reacting to the hinge position. In Android, an app is basically just like, 'Oh, are you on the cover screen? Oh, no. You're on the inner screen.' And that's all it really ever seems to know. You get a little more with some of like Samsung's own apps, you know, on their Z phones. Uh they can do this kind of camcorder-style filming setup when you have it half open. So, there's clearly like the ability to do this. And Samsung on its own apps has baked that in a little bit. But even I can't think of anything other than Samsung's camera app that does this. And it sounds like Apple's going to push for people to do a lot more of it. How much that will work? We'll see.
I'm curious, what software experiences is Apple demoing there on the floor? You mentioned Netflix, but are they demoing the camera features? Uh the dual screen capabilities are they trying to show people are the most valuable here?
Yeah, it's everything you can think of. So, they are showing Netflix. It's obviously just a halo app. Given that Netflix has the new TikTok mode, so that like use the TikTok on the cover display, open it up, play a video, fold it over, see the reflections, see the control, like that is just a very seamless demo. Everyone seems very happy about it. The camera features are all being demoed. The really, you know, fun one is the Snoopy mode for kids. So, you just push the button, it has a kids mode. You push it, Snoopy starts doing stuff on the cover display to keep your kids' attention focused on it. I'm going to use that. Obviously going to use that. Um the preview, the selfie preview, so you can take selfies with the rear camera. They're demoing that. All that's happening. They're demoing multitasking, which in my limited experience just here uh trying the phone is going to require learning a lot of moves. Like everything you loved about classic iPad multitasking, swiping up and pinning over and swiping to the side and like it's all back with a vengeance on this phone. Uh I really wanted to get a demo. They showed it several times in the keynote of pinning a video to the top while you use an app at the bottom and I could not figure it out and the people around me were like maybe that's not supporting. Like there's stuff to be worked out in terms of what these moves are and how they work. But pretty much every major software experience is there. They're not being shy about them. And a lot of the app developers that are milling around, you know, they got this preview of WWDC and we saw those previews about automatic app layouts and stuff at WWDC. So, a lot of apps have been reworked already for the demos today. Now, they got another month, right? This thing isn't shipping until October 23rd. So, I think a lot of app developers now are going to be able to use the actual simulator, get hands-on actual devices. And I bet we see a bunch launch like Zoom and Slack and others that were in the keynote that I didn't necessarily see today.
Yeah, Apple is very specific about calling out the fact that they actually have support from real app developers, which feels like a big deal. Um, it's interesting. You mentioned the iPad and honestly the story of iPad multitasking feels a lot like Apple changes it a little bit every year. And so on one hand, it's like, oh, okay, so they have something different for the iPhone. But that's kind of just par for the course that we're going to learn something new because it's a new year. You tested it a little bit. It didn't immediately feel obvious. Is that what you're saying? Or it's halfway, right? It's like you swipe some stuff and you kind of get there eventually. That's sort of how the iPad works.
Well, yeah, it has been. I would say the iPad Pro multitasking is like headed to the Mac, right? It's headed towards freeform windows and mouse support. I mean, that thing is just turning into a laptop. And so, it's interesting to see the iPhone Duo turn itself into like an iPad of two years ago or three years ago. Like these are moving targets on a gradient. So all of I think the early moves on the iPhone Duo they felt like a version of iPad multitasking that eventually just ran into the reality of people wanting their iPads to be Macs. I don't know if people want their phones to be Macs. So this might be where it sits.
It's not Stage Manager. Fortunately, we haven't gone that far.
But there are some vibes, dude. Like you can put two apps in a set and then move sets around. There's some like I said, you're going to it's a lot of moves and a lot of what at least to me feels like hidden UI. Now, I didn't get a chance to use this thing very long. Maybe it's not so but just in the moment trying to set up two apps at once. It's like what am I doing? And then you kind of get it.
Uh we have a question from the chat that I wanted to throw to you. Uh folks are curious if you had a chance to use any apps that were not optimized in both the folded and unfolded modes.
Um not really. I mean, the phones are pre-loaded with what they want you to see, so not really. Uh, there were a lot of apps on these devices, so I didn't use them all, but everything I saw, I mean, the iOS auto layout is pretty good. So, even if it wasn't optimized, it filled the screen in a way that didn't seem completely broken.
Like if you think about what's really happening here, it's just a regular iPhone in landscape mode with a taller vertical area and iOS is able to handle that pretty easily.
Well, it's interesting because Apple referenced a bunch of times the fact that they supposedly revisited all of their apps and redesigned them and customized them for this experience. Did you see that? Do you see does Notes look like a completely new app or are just some buttons moved to the side? Like to your point like most of these apps are already capable of scaling to different sizes of displays.
Sorry, I see V Song right here. What's up?
Um, and now I've done something to this interface to make it go bad. Um, anyway, it doesn't matter. Uh, it is iPad stuff, right? There's a list on the left and then you see the content window on the right. You can resize that. If you have two apps on the thing, it's two iPhone windows. It is in the best way. I don't mean this to sound like I'm denigrating the experience. In the best way, it's what you expect. There was nothing there that was particularly surprising and it shouldn't be surprising given that we're like 40 years into landscape computer displays. Like it's just the thing you expect.
Uh that both makes sense and also you don't know, right? Like I think the Android world has had a lot of growing pains particularly when it comes to expanding to different sizes of displays. Apple on the other hand has spent years priming their developer community to make sure this stuff works. And I think it makes a lot of sense that in this environment they're showing you know their halo partner apps so that you know that Netflix is going to work perfectly. Um did you have a chance to look at the new watches or anything else while you were uh in the hands-on area?
Um, I did have a chance to hang out with the Pro. There's nothing to say like they It's nice. It looks exactly like the old Pro. Um, you know, I'm very excited about the variable aperture system. It is perfect lighting in there. There's not a phone camera in the world that isn't going to look good in Apple's demo environment. So, who knows? I did my very best to, you know, make reflections sparkle by closing down the aperture. Uh, I don't know, man. You that stuff you got to take it home and you got to put it under some stress to really see it. Um, every year, you know, I see Apple's camera people and they literally say things to me like we meet again. So, yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited for that one. Um, I did not get a chance to see the watch, but V is right here if you want to talk to her about the watch.
Okay. I'm very excited to talk about the watch. Um, we actually we haven't started chatting about the watches yet, but Yes. What do you want to know about the watch? I can't hear what they're saying. All right, we have Verge reporter V Song surprise dropped off with us. What's up? We haven't started talking about the watches, so I should just lay out the Apple Watch Series 12 was announced, the Apple Watch Ultra 4 were announced. Both of them, I think small hardware updates, right? It's like better sensors, better battery life. The big thing was AI and I am very curious for your thoughts because they announced that these watches are going to listen to you all the time.
Yeah. So, um I'm actually going to go have my little, you know, briefing on the Apple Watch in uh 20 minutes, but uh so I don't know exactly about that stuff yet. I do think that it's kind of, you know, Apple coming out and being like, 'Hey, we're in on the AI wearable game, too.' But the difference is we're not choosing a different form factor. We're doing a form factor that you already know and are familiar with, which is the watch on your wrist. Um, I will say I was really surprised to see that. I shouldn't have been considering what my beat has been this past year, but I was kind of surprised that Apple was coming out and doing this. Um, see my impression of Apple. We're going to murder Whoop Apple. Uh, yeah. He was out. He was next to me in the live vlog going, 'Whoop goop. Is that a thing?' And I was like, 'Oh my god.' Yeah. Okay. Whoop. Uh, yeah. So, the new sensor, looking at it up close, you can see what they are talking about. It is the same size, but they have something called a 32-petal design. So, you're talking about the big sensor bulb on the bottom of the Apple Watch. The sensor array that it's like the first major upgrade we've seen to that array in I think since the Series 6. So, you know, six Apple watches ago was the last time we kind of saw that. These are it's not new sensors. It's improved versions of the existing ones. Yes. So, um the electrode that does the EKG sensors that has 32 like they call them petals but they look like spokes on a wheel. That's an increase of 30 because the current watches only have two. Uh so supposedly that will help with increased accuracy and also the light-emitting optical sensors are much smaller and much more densely packed in the thing. You can see a comparison photo in my hands-on that's up on the site right now. Um and that's supposedly going to stop light leakage. So you're going to get better skin contact with your wrist. And these things do matter. They do matter. Like sometimes we're like not that exciting. But they do matter in terms of accuracy. And that's one thing I'm going to be really curious and testing to see is the battery life because previously Apple has always limited the sensors to sampling your heart rate once every 5 minutes. And you know the Whoops and the Oura rings and the Fitbits they are sampling much, much, much more frequently. And the one reason why the Apple Watch didn't do that in the past was to preserve battery life mainly. So, the fact that they're going to be doing it once every 5 seconds, which is a 60 times increase, that's interesting. And we'll see what it enables. The readiness feature, which a bunch of other Whoop companies have had for years, um that's going to be limited to the Series 12 and the Ultra 4 because it's going to require the new sensor array and the hardware that that enables. So, we'll see. We'll see. Uh more surprising updates than I expected uh after a bunch of iterative ones over the last couple years. But uh I am very curious to learn more about the AI intelligence audio stuff that that stuff I was like, 'Oh, oh no.'
