It's like Hunter Biden selling crack on the White House lawn. Just like being that brazen.
Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.
Scott, how was it? The game?
It started off slow. First half was kind of a sleeper and then the second half was great. Yeah. And so yeah, it was great to be there. I took my boys.
What was the vibe of the place?
You know, the Argentinian fans are incredible and the Spanish fans are hot. So, generally speaking, you know, check, check, check. And Matt Live did a good job. I will say this, I thought FIFA put on an incredible tournament in terms of touch points and graphics and vibe. It was, you know, typically the final is not the best game. What was unusual about the tournament in Qatar was the final was the best game. It's like the Super Bowl usually isn't a very good game. And this wasn't, this was an okay game, not a great game, but it's sort of like, quite frankly, I'm exhausted.
Did you not like the thing in the middle? It was a little bit jumbled. It was sort of like...
I didn't think it worked.
I was like, where's Bad Bunny?
I mean, when they yell out Shakira and Elmo in the same breath, you're sort of like, what's going on here? It just felt like a dog's breakfast, and those things are hard to pull off. You've got to try and please everybody and have someone who's at the charts but also ethnically ambiguous, and then it's just a difficult one. But just to put some numbers around it, I think the business story, and I've said this for a while, that's going to come out, you're just going to see over and over, they're an advertiser, but they're going to get good or bad, they're going to get a ton of awareness. The World Cup will be the largest gambling event in history.
And Kalshi did more, get this, than 31 billion in trading volume in June. That's up 87% from May, right? And the platform has declared 1 billion in daily volume every day since the tournament began June 11th. Yeah. And they say just the World Cup volume, 23 billion. Polymarket set an all-time record of 10.8. I mean, in just one game, USA versus Belgium, drew 64 million on Kalshi.
And what's interesting here is that when you have this much money wagered on matches, it's no longer a gambling story. It's a capital market story. And Kalshi's added 3 million users during the World Cup. And it feels like prediction markets are kind of becoming the Bloomberg terminal for the...
But is that a good thing or just an is thing? I get it's an is thing, but is it a good thing?
I generally think that wagering on sports is something that young men need to be educated about. I don't know if you can stop it. I don't know if you can ask someone to go fight for their country and then not wager on the Browns game, but I think there needs to be education and I think it needs to be regulated because it does prey on a more immature prefrontal cortex of a male. It does prey on an increasingly online youth, and there's just no getting around it if you look at the data.
Because they'll bet on anything once they get started. Like they were betting on drug outcomes. It starts to get a little demented.
Well, that's another thing, there's just the pure addiction element and the fact that when a state legalizes gambling, bankruptcies tend to skyrocket. And then there's the potential for insider trading. I actually think that'll get arbitrage'd out when people realize if they don't have inside information, they should not bet.
We'll get to that because Trump... We'll get to that in a second. Oh yeah, the grift. I mean, I'll just say, a White House teleprompter operator, a long-time teleprompter operator, is being investigated over allegations he used inside knowledge for the president's speeches to earn over $100,000 on, I think it was Kalshi. That's right. And then Trump Media is going to sell Wall Street traders and investment firms as much as $100,000 a month for faster access to his posts on Truth Social, where he talks about what he's going to do, and then he bets against it. It's all like, it's both insider trading, it's insiderness, it's gaming the system, and then it's possible addiction. So, I mean, I think betting can be fun. It's just this seems like on turbo, and especially when the president himself and his minions are all doing it.
I think one of the most interesting things that's not covered about these prediction markets is that we used to discover information through traditional media and journalists.
Now, we discover it through markets.
And when enough people have money on an outcome, markets often become the fastest aggregator of truth. I use data from prediction markets more than I use data from traditional news outlets. Now, whenever it's about politics or predicting anything, this tends to be the data source I go to. So there's this weird, neither good nor bad. It really is the wisdom of crowds has been monetized and is now being leveraged for data input for media companies such as ourselves. The insider trading thing, like, so people on both sides of the aisle engaged in insider trading.
Trump came in and said, you guys are amateurs. I'm going to make millions, not thousands.
Maybe even hundreds of millions.
Yeah. And then just the brazenness of saying this is tantamount to... So Republicans will always say, and it's accurate, that Speaker Pelosi is up 600% in the past 10 years, the S&P up 200%, that clearly she had access to material non-public information, but she didn't start a wire service selling her inside information.
Right, to others. I know. It's like Hunter Biden amplified, right? He just...
It's like Hunter Biden selling crack on the White House lawn, just like being that brazen. And by the way, he hands down has the best social in the world right now.
Very, actually very authentic talking about addiction. Anyways, I just can't...
It goes back to the basic notion: if you're going to commit a crime, don't get a speeding ticket. Don't have an isolated incident.
Commit double murder and rob banks every hour.
Yeah, I know. It really...
Everyone just doesn't know where to look.
Honestly, everyone's looking for an edge. It's such a grotesque story.
It's like, are you crazy? Are you nuts?
I love that all the little ones get caught and then Trump is in plain sight and just steals and steals and he's just a thief. Speaking of which, he tried to steal the attention from the team. What was that wandering around the stage? Did he... He got booed, right? Correct or not?
He got booed on the way out and he did get booed on the way out, but he got booed on the way in. You could hear it.
I'm sorry. Excuse me. You're right. On the way in, but it was Claudia Sheinbaum, it was Prime Minister Carney or President, you know, they were all there. It makes sense that they were all there. It wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. I mean, no one likes to get booed. But I'm trying to remember at past Super Bowls, are presidents usually applauded? I haven't been to that many events with presidents.
They don't get booed like that. He gets booed everywhere he goes. But why was he on the stage? Could you even tell from where you were sitting?
He wouldn't get off the stage. And then that Infantino, his little guy who gives him awards, chased him across the stage to try to get him to move because you know, you're supposed to do this thing.
I don't think that was him attention-mongering. I think that was him dawdling. I don't think he knew where to go.
Dawdling. Yeah. I thought that was... I don't know if you could tell, but that's what was happening. It was weird. It was weird. But of course, he just has to take... I think he was dawdling. That's what I felt. Everyone's like, 'Oh, he's taking attention.' I'm like, 'I don't think he knows where to go.' Like, because the guy ran after him like I often did when my mom was mobile.
Look, FIFA has a terrible reputation and it's earned every ounce of that terrible reputation. These international sporting organization committees, they kind of operate in another netherworld, whether it's the IOC, even the NCAA, I think, has not draped itself in glory because they have just a total lack of regulation. They have immense power. They have cartel power. They have monopoly power. These stadiums weren't even allowed to say, 'I'm a Gillette Stadium or MetLife.' They had to cover it up such that FIFA would have total monopoly power on all monetization of ad revenue.
Interesting. It's a grift everywhere you go.
Yeah, it definitely feels as if, and I'm a capitalist. I don't think there's any better way to leverage the most powerful instinct than self-preservation and capitalism. And I do think it's just proven over and over that creates the growth you need for social services, but it does feel like it's just gone too far.
Yeah, I think you've had too much World Cup, I think. But speaking of grifters, I'll tell you something that hasn't gone too far. Andrew Tate and his brother Tristan had been arrested in Miami after British authorities issued 38 new charges against him, including allegations of rape and trafficking. These guys, I mean, there was obviously a big meme about his outfit, which was very strange. It was the strange sort of, you know, lady outfit. It was an odd outfit. But I'm very happy they're arrested. For anyone who wants to read about them, you will understand that these people need to be thrown into jail and never let out again. I'm so happy. I hope Trump doesn't try to stop them from being extradited to England, which is where these latest... they were, of course, jailed in Romania.
Do you think he'll do that? I haven't even thought of that.
Yeah, Trump could... That's how... How do you think they got back here from Romania? Trump put the pressure on Romania to let him out.
God, I think with all the heat he's under with Epstein, that's the last thing he'd do.
You know, Amanda got this right. This is Epstein in real time. This is Epstein in real time. Like, with the government letting these people off all the time. That's how they got back here. That's why they were partying in Maine in their lady outfits. These two are rapists and sex traffickers and child molesters. I just... this is just... the fact that the Trumps are so tight with them. JD Vance follows them. There's one thing, the manosphere is one thing. These two are predators and should be thrown into jail. And I'm glad Britain came after them.
I agree with that. And I know it's 38 new counts. And what I would say is that I'm glad that the justice system is taking over here. But the good news, in the lens I look at this through, to a certain extent, is that young men have moved on from the Tates. They're no longer a thing. The media has not. And I think it's good that they maintain coverage and that they're brought to justice for what would feel like just so many allegations that they're going to spend... You know, it's probably a pretty safe prediction that they may spend a decent part of the rest of their life in jail. The Crown Prosecution Service has added new charges: rape, human trafficking, and these images of child and assault.
This is their thing. This is their... and it brings Andrew Tate's total charges to 42. They found additional alleged victims in Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire, bringing the total number of accusers in the UK case to seven. Both of them had dual US-UK citizenship and are now awaiting extradition. The thing that doesn't get a lot of attention, and I think might be the reason they end up in jail, is people don't talk a lot about the actual business model. And that is Andrew Tate didn't get famous from kickboxing or Big Brother. He may have gotten famous doing that, but he got rich teaching men to get rich, teaching men to get rich, right? Basically Hustler's University, and he had this bogus subscription, remind me of like Trump University, this bogus subscription education platform. And at one point they think he had 100,000 people, almost all men, right, learning how to be bad men, roughly at $50 a month at its peak. So, $5 million a month in recurring revenue from basically an affiliate marketing pyramid scheme where the product was mostly more affiliate marketers. And the pitch was never subtle: dominance, submission, and this thing called the Matrix is a worldview where women are property and violence against them is a lifestyle brand. They've really set young men back.
Yeah. The few, and I want to give more young men more credit than just believing everyone was a Tate fan.
Yeah, they are. But the scary thing about that part of the manosphere, and what was so Machiavellian about it, is it would start off okay: be fit, be action-oriented, take control of your economic life, and then it just became about dominance and misogyny and crime and a grift.
Let's just call it what it is. I mean, they sell rape as a product. I just think that they should go to jail and stay there. And I would agree that all kinds of young men have rejected them. My sons years ago had rejected them. Had looked at them, looked at their stuff because it was really popular when they were teenagers, and I was sort of disturbed by that because I had been very aware of his messaging and had rejected it. That said, he had enough followers to be able to party on, and among the followers apparently are Barron Trump and others. And it just... it's, you know, in this case, I don't blame Barron Trump. This is grotesque, but it's very attractive in some way. And they are essentially rapists and sex traffickers and now pedophiles, and the Trump administration better remove itself from any because it is Epstein in real time.
These guys at the end of the day, I believe they're going to be found guilty of a lot of different crimes and spend a lot of time in jail. The thing I find most interesting is how were obvious grifters like this and such vile people able to get so much traction and get so much influence. They're very close to the Trump people.
100%, Kara. And I go back to what Peter Drucker says, that every business success can be reverse-engineered to a change in demographics. And so what's the demographic here? What's the market that opened up? And I believe that it's millions. It's a cohort that unfortunately has exploded, and that is a cohort of loneliness and downward mobility young men, and that created demand, and guys like Tate supplied it.
Yeah, it must be girls' fault.
Wrapped in Bugattis and grievance. This isn't your fault. And the thing that he has kind of in common with Trump was the persecution or grievance complex that they leverage. The Tate brothers' standard response to every legal action across different countries that accuse him of crimes has been the same script: 'This is a conspiracy against me because I speak the truth.' Does that remind you of anybody? So they take a specific evidence-based allegation and they reframe it as an attack on the truth or on an idea. And it's effective because it's flattering to the audience that if you believe him, you're not defending an accused rapist, you're defending free speech in a movement. So I find 'How did this happen to me?' will be written about in sociology books.
I agree. Let me tell you, there's a story which I mentioned a couple weeks ago in June. You might have been away, but I think I did mention it. It's called 'Andrew Tate's Empire of Abuse' by Heidi Blake from The New Yorker. You need to read it. It's an incredible indictment on a lot of people that facilitated it. But it'll give you a primer into why these people belong in jail and should stay there for the rest of their lives. And I'm glad they got arrested in such an embarrassing way, too. You know, in their weird little outfits and their...
Oh, by the way, the silver lining here is Scott Galloway has his Halloween outfit. I know. Everybody was talking about that.
Oh my god. They're just... except they're rapists. Scott, you could do better. Why don't you dress...
Well, I'll take the gay prostitute look to the rapist. Although, no gay would dress like that. Sorry. He looks like a Midwestern lady paralegal.
Anyway, okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, SpaceX stock has taken a dive.
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Scott, we're back. This is an interesting story. Ed is all over this, man. I've been following this. He loves this story. SpaceX stock is no longer blasting off. Let's use a rocket term. Shares of the company are down almost 23%, wiping out almost a trillion dollars in market value. One could say that was overvalued and it's not really wiping it out. It's just coming down to where it belongs. As we tape, the market cap for the company is 1.63 trillion and going down. The short squeeze is quite heavy on here. Let's listen to what you said about the stock in early June. 'I think SpaceX is about to hit a 10-year high on the minute it goes public, meaning it'll be all downhill from there.' Yeah, I think you got this. And so talk about what's happening here and the short squeeze with what's occurring. I think most of the float, which is very small at this moment, is devoted to short sellers. So explain the situation.
I think Elon Musk will be remembered as arguably the greatest engineer in a sector, but that sector is not space or EVs. That sector is the financial markets. He has engineered, in concert with Goldman and JP Morgan, a means of creating demand, whether it's just 'this will be a good trade' or 'it's Elon, Elon always gets his investors back' or 'look at all these pictures of rockets, look at all this flowery WeWork-like language about the world being an interstellar species or an interplanetary species,' constrained supply, and then unprecedented valuation, just not... we've never seen anything like this. Call the president or call whoever, get included in the NASDAQ 100, get demand that no IPO has ever been fortunate enough to register. Now everyone talks about, okay, they've lost a trillion dollars in market value, but it's still worth $1.6 trillion.
Some say it's a $35 stock.
Yeah. It's not a broken company. It's a reminder that gravity eventually applies to stocks too. And this is what IPOs have become. And that is, they're no longer an opportunity for retail investors to participate in America's greatest companies. They don't create value. They transfer. They no longer create value, Kara. They transfer value from optimistic public investors to early private investors. Because if someone who's on or been on the board of a lot of private companies, there's so much capital available in the private markets that if the people who really know the company and the sector well think, you know what, there's still a lot of growth and value here, they stay. They keep it all for themselves and they find their own capital and they invest, right? And they don't need to access the public. If you wanted to raise a couple hundred million bucks like Google did back when they went public in the '90s, you had to go public. VCs and institutional investors didn't have that kind of capital. Now, the only basically, I've said this for a while, the IPOs have now become the last stop on the chump train. And that is, okay, we don't think there's upside anymore here. Basically, it's a means. It's like showing up to an IPO right now is like showing up to a poker game after everyone else already knows each other's cards.
Ah, and then you're the chump.
And it's like that whole thing: if you don't know who the dumbest person in the room is, it's you. Now, having said that, if you can get in on shares at the pricing, like from your investment bank or an institutional investor or whatever it is, these guys engineer a one-day pop. If we had a real SEC chair coming in, I think a really solid review of the IPO process of this company, or even tokenization, even let's throw a bone at the crypto guys, maybe they should tokenize private companies, put it on the blockchain, and create a level of transparency and disclosure using AI that more people can participate in these companies pre-IPO. But the IPO process itself is now a transfer of wealth.
Well, and not only that, it kind of defines the term rigged. Explain what the short sellers are doing here and why this float is so... they kept the float tight in order to create the pop. Correct.
So, first off, okay, they waived the rule, was included in the NASDAQ 100. They also waived another rule. Typically, when a company goes public, it has to float a certain amount of the company. With this, although they raised $80 billion on a $2 trillion market cap company, that means only 4% of the firm's shares were available, right? And they have all sorts of staggered lockups. They have effectively soft lockups that if you buy through certain platforms, you get banned from the platform if you sell the stock, which is... they don't want to call it a lockup because that would violate certain SEC conditions and create a different class of stock. So they created a workaround that's effectively a lockup. But people basically... this is one of the most shorted stocks in history now because people are betting it's going to go down. And what people do is they borrow stock and say, 'I'll sell it back to you at the same price for a fee,' and they're hoping that it'll go down and they get to sell it back to you at the price when they initially shorted the stock. It's dangerous because any move up creates a short squeeze and it can create velocity on the way up, which Elon has battled before with Tesla and other things. He and short sellers have been in a lifelong fight over the valuations of his companies.
Yeah, this is... look, this is a company that is... and every time I say this about Musk, I'm wrong. And to be fair, Musk has delivered in spades for his investors. The people who invested in Twitter, it's like they must have thought, 'I'll write this thing off,' and he's figured out a way to stuff it into SpaceX and talk about rockets. And those people now have a chance to get their money out. But here's the thing. I believe they're going to get their money out. And there's going to be an enormous number of investors who've made a lot of money, to be fair, a lot of private investors, and it will create some economic growth. A guy, a friend of mine from one of the investment banks said that there are 12 new billionaires just in Texas. You know, the IPO market and capital formation in the US, and SpaceX is part of this, is a marvel.
Except they may not stay billionaires, right? Elon's no longer a trillionaire now at this point.
Oh yeah. Okay. But still the amount of wealth created...
I get it. I get it. But it's on the backs of dupes, right? Someone's going to be at the short end of the stick and that's going to be the return.
Okay. To be fair. Okay. I don't think we're out there telling people it's overvalued. I mean, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley putting a price rating on it at 205 and 300. That is an exercise in creative writing. And I wonder if we're headed back to again '99. Remember when people were saying, where analysts were saying, putting out buy recommendations and then in private emails saying, 'This is a piece of shit. There's just no fucking way.' I don't care who that Morgan Stanley analyst is. My guess is he or she is a very bright person, and in exchange for the fees for underwriting this company, in exchange for the opportunity to manage the wealth of the shareholders post the IPO, which is actually a bigger business for these investment banks that people don't talk about. There's a general onus on the analyst not to say this thing's overvalued. It's worth 40 bucks a share.
That goes back. That goes back.
Right. Right. And Sarbanes-Oxley, I think, was supposed to cure that and it has not. The only difference is it used to be if you had a certain type of company, the analyst writing it up was the most important thing, and the analysts used to show up to pitch the IPO, and they're no longer allowed to do that. They're supposedly not talking to each other, but there's no fucking way anyone with half a brain would put a $300 price target on this thing. What would you do here? What is... as an investor? Yeah. Just sit quietly. If you're an... Do you mean a shareholder or just... If you're a shareholder now, is it going down? Sell. Are you kidding? Yeah.
The way I look at it is I just look at the asymmetry of potential upsides and the underlying valuation. The asymmetry here is very dramatic. That if this stock was at seven, it's much more likely, what is it now? 140 or something. I don't even know what. It's much more likely this stock's at 70 than 280. So you have asymmetry to the downside, which means sell. Now, you've got to look at tax ramifications if you got into the IPO or whatever. But also, if you're a private market investor, you might be up 10 or 20x on this, which again, credit SpaceX, credit Elon, credit the markets for creating that.
I've had calls... I haven't had a call from anyone at SpaceX. I've had calls from employees at OpenAI and Anthropic that are being pitched to buy their shares in the secondary market, and I would say the same fucking thing: sell at least 50% and hope and call me. I hope I'm wrong.
Lock in most or all of those things.
Lock it in. All right. Well, speaking of which, in that topic, China is once again staking its claim in the AI race. This is a really interesting story. Something we've talked about a lot. Chinese startup Moonshot AI just unveiled a new open-source model called Kimi K3, which the company says can match top models from OpenAI and Anthropic on important benchmarks. Moonshot has priced the model at $15 per million output tokens. That's cheaper than Anthropic's Claude 5, which costs $50 for the same level of output. AI and semiconductor stocks dropped on this news, similar to what we saw with DeepSeek last year. Scott, this is... before we discuss this, I want to play a prediction you made last December about China, AI, and Trump. Let's listen.
I think China's about to go for the jugular here, and I think that they're going to massively engage in what I'll refer to as AI dumping, and that is these open-weight models. These models are just much cheaper, lower power consumption, and everyone from Airbnb to other Fortune 500 firms are starting to recognize that these things are lower cost. And I think essentially China's going to say, 'Okay, the fastest way to kick this guy in the nuts is that he's made a giant bet on AI, including the S&P and his entire economy on AI, and we're just going to start dumping AI into the US market.'
So, great prediction. I want to talk about how concerned are US companies. They're of course calling it AI communism. One of the top people about what China's doing.
What does that mean? Centrally planned AI. Well, they're giving it away for free to everybody and benefiting society.
It's called dumping. There's nothing more capitalist than trying to consolidate markets. So Trump's former AI czar David Sachs called this a new model concerning and argued the US is setting itself back with regulation, saying this is how you lose the AI race. There is no regulation, David. So I don't know what you're talking about.
I think he's talking about the data center more.
Whatever, it doesn't matter. This is not the problem, David. The problem is these costs. So Scott, go for it because you really did. This has stayed with me when you started talking about it last year, and I remember thinking he's dead right about what China's going to do here. And you're right. It's not AI communism. It's AI capitalism is what's happening.
Kara, this is the biggest business story that is getting the least coverage. And that is everyone thought the AI race would be won by the company with the smartest model. And increasingly, it's looking like it'll be won by whoever can drive margins to zero the fastest. China isn't going to beat OpenAI in a frontier model, a premium AI. That's not what they're trying to do here. They're trying to make premium AI economically irrelevant. Moonshot pricing AI at roughly 70% below comparable frontier models. It's not competition. It's dumping.
Get used to the word. Exactly. It's AI dumping, folks.
Yeah. Dumping. And this is what China has done. This is just like, for God's sakes, if we had a Secretary of Commerce who didn't have his head up his ass and we had economists who were in the room, for God's sake, just spend an hour with Gita Gopinath. For God's sakes, just...
Get Justin Wolfers in there and say, and just listen to the people. This is what China did to solar panels, steel, EVs, and batteries. First they match Western quality, or they don't even match it, 80, 90%.
Close. Actually they match it with cars. They've matched it, but go ahead.
Then they cut the price by two-thirds. Then they own the market. Investors should stop asking who has the best model. The salient key question is the following: who still has pricing power in 24 months?
Yes. So what do the... So Trump will do, will try to keep them out of here the way they did with EVs, but it doesn't matter because across the globe, China will own the markets everywhere like they do with EVs. That is, if you go anywhere except the United States, their EVs are everywhere. Everywhere. So what happens here? Because they're going to try to keep... they'll keep it out of this. These companies are freaking out, either want to be bailed out or they want to be protected, which is of course typical of them because they're communists. So what does the Trump administration do since, as you noted, they're banking, as you completely presently noticed, they're banking on this? They've staked their entire market upon this. I think that's exactly what you said, his entire company on AI, and we're going to start dumping AI onto the US market. So what did the Trump administration do? Especially because they're in there, especially after the midterms, they don't have a lot of moves to make here.
When you make unilateral non-market decisions that are caked in bad judgment, you end up in a quagmire. You end up in a corner with no good options.
That's exactly right. Whether it's going into Iran without consulting Congress, your allies, having a plan around the Strait of Hormuz, you end up with no good options. By deciding to have no regulation, making a huge bet on AI infrastructure, or making just an enormous bet, the market has just gone so crazy, so concentrated around a small number of companies. And what you have here is he's going to be in a real quagmire because you think, well, okay, he's just going to regulate it and tell these companies they can't use... tell American companies they can't use Chinese models. But the most frightening graph for the American economy and the global economy is one of those mountain graphs. And it shows that in the last 90 days, token usage of Chinese models has gone from like single digits to 53%.
The majority of AI consumption now in the US appears to be coming from Chinese open-weight models. And here's the problem. Whether it's David Sachs or whoever it is that has an enormous investment, or just the economy has an enormous investment and is dependent upon the growth of OpenAI and Anthropic and Nvidia and all these companies, the chip guys, the infrastructure guys won't be hit as hard, but the front-end models, if they get hit hard, the whole thing could... you know, those dominoes are already starting to tip.
But the problem is every VC and all the other people that he caters to are going to call him and say, 'I can't afford to build this new insurance AI company if you all of a sudden overnight decide I can't use Chinese open AI models.' So he's surrounded by a lot of donors who are making a lot of money arbing down the application layer to a cheaper LLM layer.
And then there's the cybersecurity exposure. I mean, it just goes on.
And he doesn't surround himself with smart people. He surrounds himself with people who want to make money in the short term, but don't think about the long-term ecosystem here.
I call this... Okay, two things: AI dumping and next quagmire.
He's going to be in a box here. He's going to be in a corner here.
He doesn't even know. He doesn't even know.
