They build huge companies. They become obsessed with the success of these companies. And as a result, they go from being true ballers to true [__].
Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.
First off, I just want to say I was right again.
Paramount has reached a settlement with a coalition of 12 states that sued to block its Warner Brothers Discovery takeover, clearing the biggest remaining hurdle to the deal. Paramount will not have to sell off cable channels as part of the settlement. Although the full terms of the agreement have not been disclosed, but it looks like very much behavioral remedies and not structural ones as promised by Rob Bonta, who looks like a fool here. Actually, a range of concessions reportedly discussed, including a $1.5 billion investment in production in California after threatening to leave. A dingbat editorial board for CNN and CBS to ease concerns over independence, which is completely toothless, a commitment not to sell either studio lot. I'm not sure what that's about. And potential penalties if Paramount fails to produce 30 movies a year, which they already do. So, we'll get to the White House thing that was happening, but I want to talk about this a little bit. I've got some props for you. Is that okay?
So, you know, I don't know if you know this, but I work for CNN sometimes. This is a CNN logo that I stole from them when I was there. Do you like it?
That's going to have some nice coffee here. Let's see. What is that?
Oh, wow. You like that?
Are you making an announcement or...
No, not an announcement. I have a contract with us. This coffee is delicious. I'm going to have some in this delightful MSNBC cup. It is kind of old and not MS. No.
Yeah. No. In any case, no. My contract, I was just literally reading my contract today. As you might imagine when this news struck because I threatened to leave and I asked my agent to get me out of my contract. It ends December 31st. So, it's only a few months, right? I just can't. I thought like I was trying to figure out ways I could work with them in some like licensing way, but then I thought, [__] these guys. I don't want to work for them. I just don't. I got too much to do with you, Scott Galloway. I like...
It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.
Let me give you a little inside scoop here.
I think there's a decent likelihood when you show up to whoever it is you show up to at CNN and say, 'I want out of my contract.' They jump up and say, 'Congratulations. No problem.'
No, not at all. You're wrong. I know you think that. I know you'd like to run me down.
No. Maybe the Ellisons, that's for sure. But not... No, no. They've been trying to keep me, very nicely been trying to keep me. And I have a lot of regard for the executives there now. And they've been... You like Dave, right? That's his name.
I do. Mark Thompson. I like Andrew. Sorry. Mark Thompson.
I like Anderson. I like Caitlyn. I adore. I like all of them. Every one of them. And I'm not...
Yeah, but we like Rebecca Cutler more.
We do. We like her. She has not spoken to me just about this, just for clarity.
You sound like you're in the midst of a contract and trying to avoid discovery here.
Well, she hasn't, but that's true. I don't know if it's Emma's now or anything like... Listen, I'm not staying. I am not staying. I just don't have any time. I have other things that make more money, that matter more, that have a bigger audience. And I just...
Let the door hit your ass on the way out, said anyone with the last name Ellison.
No, I'm just saying I just don't want to worry. Why, you know, why is it... Why is it they don't want me? I don't want them. And I have been very explicit.
I'm breaking up with you.
No, stop it. Stop it. They just... Stop it. They think they have... Shoddily, I think they are terrible media owners. I'd rather work for Rupert Murdoch.
What other media firm do they own?
No, they own CBS. You think they... Okay, fair point. Fair point.
I answered my own question before I was done with the question.
Let me say I think they're terrible media.
That's fine. But they didn't do that. They... They... He did. I love him to make Top Gun movies the rest of his life. I'd be thrilled to watch them. And I will incorporate a Top Gun metaphor. I worry at MS Now at CNN that the Ellisons produced along with Top Gun you would hit the same glass ceiling as Goose.
You hit the same glass ceiling.
I love Goose. That was a good character.
Yeah. Supposed on Top Gun 3. Kelly McGillis is returning, but you know who's not returning?
Oh, I know. That's very funny. Anyway, a farewell and idea. I can't leave yet, but I will leave as soon as I can. As soon as my age...
Sound like you're going to be a great employee. I'm out.
Until... Until I'm legally... I'm gone the moment I am no longer legal. Yeah, let's invite her back to... Let's... You'd be great for the culture in demand. Scott Galloway and you know I'm just saying I'm much in demand.
What would you do? Okay, give me strategy what I should do besides say [__] you.
Yeah, [__] you is my instinct.
Your strategy, Kara, is you invest in your opportunities, not your problems.
Broadcast media is a problem. And you, like many people, have a fetish for it and think that if you see a CNN or an MSNBC logo over your head, it makes you more credible. Right. You've already worked for the most credible brands in the world. You should go direct to consumer. You make more money than you've ever made anywhere else in your life talking to an irreverent frat bro.
You should invest. You should invest in... You just started something very cool. And by the way, just so our listeners know, we have rehearsed none of this. You started something really cool called On with Kara Swisher where you're making all this cultural commentary. Invest in that and invest less time, energy, and effort in an 80-year-old looking for Ari Melber to come on. I just...
Invest in the opportunity. Go. I learned how to surf in Hawaii and I thought I'm an amazing surfer. I'm gifted at this. And then I tried to surf in Newport where there's real waves or harder waves and I found out I am not a very good surfer. Go to where the snow is good and the waves are great.
You know, you are podcasting and direct to consumer. You like... You don't like anyone telling you to do anything. You are a shitty employee. And I say that affectionately as a shitty employee.
I would have made more money if I'd stayed at Morgan Stanley. I was too insecure and self-centered to work for other people. It is a skill. It's not because I'm a baller. You are that in spades. Invest in your opportunities, not your problem.
Thank you, Scott Galloway. I think I shall do that. I'm going to focus more. There's so much podcast opportunity and I mean the broader podcast stuff and some other stuff I'm interested in. It's so fun to try things like doing that On with Kara Swisher and that's going to go somewhere. I have more stuff to do. I feel like it's right. But talk about the deal itself. I mean, this looks like Bonta gave in. I don't know why he was even doing it in the first place. What is your overall feel for this away from my interests in the situation?
Pure regulatory theater. We decided, as they should have, that two enormous media companies can merge because they need to compete with even more enormous media companies. There was no legal reason to block this merger. And oh, but they extracted from them a promise to make more movies. That's like letting Goldman and JP Morgan merge if they promised to build more ATMs. This is... Regulators started out saying this is Godzilla. It's an existential threat to humanity and they settled by saying we'll make more movies about Godzilla.
Yeah. And keep your studios, keep your real estate in Los Angeles.
This is total weak sauce. This is Rob Bonta deciding he wants to run for governor and giving into populist [__]. I don't like the concentration of media, but the bottom line is when you do the math and you look at antitrust law, there was no legal leg to stand on here other than bothering them and trying to extract their pound of flesh. So, fine. They're going to get... Oh, and my favorite...
I know you know how I feel about that.
I sent you what I thought about. That's like when the WGA, the worst run union in the world, extracted agreement from the studios to discuss AI. That's my favorite. You have to have a conversation with us about AI. Oh, yeah. That'll save you.
Yeah, exactly. And the editorial boards just... I'm going to read you something I wrote because I just think it's such a dingbat nonsense to do that. This is what I wrote. A history lesson. Do you remember the 2007 five-member special editorial oversight board that Rupert Murdoch agreed to form when he bought Dow Jones, meddling by him? I do and thought it was a name then. Within a year, Uncle Satan, my nickname for Rupert, had put his minions in place, moved out Marcus Broccoli, and installed longtime factotum Robert Thompson, whom I nicknamed the naughty vicer, so no one was there who might complain to the board, utterly predictable and painfully stupid. The committee publicly said as much, pointing out the obvious: they were powerless. The Columbia Journalism Review aptly called it the committee of the absurd. And since then, repeat after me kids, ownership equals control. If Rob Bonta thinks a toothless entity will be effective, he is a knucklehead. By the way, Murdoch had done the same tricks earlier when he bought the Times and the Sunday Times in London. Both boards are non-existent today. Thus, it will be with the Ellisons. I would, as I said, I'd rather work for Murdoch, but he did the same game on these people. And they're far less able owners of CBS who've put in incompetent management so far, don't seem capable of controlling the media very nicely. That's what they're good at. I just think these boards would... Why don't you be on the board? Cause some trouble.
I just committed to a board that meets six times a year.
I know you're on a good board. You're on an actually good board. So look, this is a good merger because in media, media plays a really important role, especially news media. And unfortunately, news media unless it's elevating conspiracy theory or that mRNA vaccines alter your DNA and getting content produced for free and then using AI to addict you and serve you the exact right Nissan ad at the exact right moment. It's become too expensive to do good journalism. And unless you have a benign billionaire or someone with deep pockets who sees an economic motive in funding this for ego reasons or otherwise, these things are going to go away. Now CBS Paramount was going to go away faster. If this merger didn't go through, that company...
Going to struggle. It is subscale.
Warner would stay in business. It just would go sideways and probably be a shitty place to work or invest. Even subscale together they got a fighting shot. I don't think the Ellisons are as... I think the Ellisons like money more than they do Republican politics.
Oh, that's not true of Larry. It may be true of David. I think David was sort of more Democratic.
Ellison is on the hook personally.
Yeah, I get it. What I'm telling you...
He's got to make this work economically.
CNN. I just don't... I just don't think it's... I don't think overnight you're going to have the ghost of Lou Dobbs on CNN. I don't know where I got that.
No, the stuff they've done at CBS is pretty grotesque. But let me just say, let me relate it to related news. The five major TV networks are suspending their rotating White House pool coverage after the Trump administration refused to allow CNN to serve as a pool representative. This comes shortly after President Trump banned CNN, MSNBC, and Politico from the White House, saying media outlets shouldn't be able to report fictions and lies. Actually, they are allowed to do that. Donald Trump... reporters from all three outlets were turned away Saturday with their White House press passes deactivated or confiscated. Trump said there was no single story that prompted the ban, calling the result of the years of negative coverage and warning that other outlets could be next. Apparently, Natalie Harp fed him all manner of negative clips from MSNBC. Now, all three outlets are set to sue the administration. They have an excellent lawyer, Ted Boutrous, asking a federal judge to reverse the ban, which it probably will be because it's... government shall make no law restricting the freedom of the press. So, they'll probably restore access. He might restore it for the Ellisons, I guess. But everyone's banding together. This is important because, you know, I think it's the last gasp of an autocrat here what he's doing. And maybe he was up late with Natalie, you know, shooting the [__]. But it is related, like who owns these things and who has the guts to stand up to this kind of nonsense. I watched Real Time with Bill Maher because Jess was on and there was a guy, David Frum. Anyway, and he said that he was defending the First Amendment and said that Robert Kraft, who owns Gillette Stadium in Boston, should allow McLemore to play and the president should allow all of these media outlets in for the White House press briefings. And I find that that's a false analogy. Okay.
Robert Kraft owns Gillette. Yeah.
It's a private... I get to decide who's in my house. And if they offend me for whatever reason, I can say, 'Fuck you. You're not welcome in my home.' I get to say that. If Robert Kraft feels McLemore is a raging anti-Semite, of which I would agree, he can say, 'Yeah, I'd rather him just not be in my house.' He gets to make that assessment. The White House is our house. It's the definition of a public space. And we have decided that the most important thing that we put... let me think, three, four, number one in terms of our amendments, that it's important that media has a check on government. But net net, this ultimately ends up being a distraction because these White House press briefings, Donald Trump's ego is going to result in him restoring it because he'd rather have a raucous party where occasionally someone offends him than have a sad party that no one shows up to. And the media, even Fox, is like, 'Okay, this is wrong.' And as the media does, and this is a wonderful thing about the media, they do look out for each other.
Finally. Yeah. I was waiting. I was waiting. I was like, is Fox going? Because the Fox News person is head of the White House Correspondents' Association, and she's been very suck-up to Trump, but she did make strong statements. You got to give her credit. You remember I was so against that stupid White House correspondents' dinner. What happens when the Biden or the Harris or the Newsom administration blocks Fox? I mean...
Should not. Should not.
Agree. But my point is they all realize we're next. I mean, we can't have this. We've got to have... Anyways, this... I think this ends up in this business and have a better gut for it. My thesis: another distraction. Ultimately everyone's back in the room.
Yes, it is another distraction. You're absolutely right. But I think he's, you know, he got ginned up by Natalie at night. And not in the ways that are fun.
She is the most influential... I know. I doubt it. She's the most influential member of this administration, by the way. Because Susie Wiles was away and that's when this stuff dropped, from the reporting. I think it is a distraction, but boy, Scott, it's terrifying. You know what I mean? Like this is autocrat... I think he's on the last vestiges of an autocrat situation and I think it'll be like what happened in Hungary, you know, with Orbán, etc. It's still disturbing in the United States of America. Hungary doesn't have the First Amendment. We do. And it's so dead clear here. And it does matter who owns these things, which is why the Ellisons are ill-equipped to do it. I don't think they have any backbone. They'll suck up to anyone. That'll matter. I think they're going to get a buzzsaw from the Democrats if things change in November. And I think that's another thing that's going to happen and hurt that company quite a bit. That said, they have to know what media ownership requires a certain amount of backbone. It really does these days. And I fear they don't have it. Again, as I said, like Murdoch's actually, his newspapers, whether it's the Journal or some others, have been very good reporting, like really strong. I wouldn't call it anti-Trump reporting. It just is really tough on the corruption of the Trump administration. And you need those things. And so it is a distraction, but it's also incredibly worrisome that he does this also because I think he's by himself late at night with this young stupid woman. I think what's incredible to watch a lot of these cabinet members, and we have a very interesting quote right now. But there's all these cabinet members, you know, just jumped on the thing, of course, because they don't say things. The worst of them was Scott Bessent, who the great Poo-Pon man is working my last nerve at this point. But the press cares more about press than anything else after the White House is platforming him. Kara...
I... you know, he is the Treasury Secretary, but like...
Oh, I'm sorry. I was thinking of Scott Jennings. I would rather comment.
Oh, I'm sure he'll get a raise in the new Ellison administration. Good. He can take my money. But Scott, they all backed him. And so when we're on this topic, this idea of quislings and cowards and people that enable Trump is clearly off his rocker and he loves the press and hates them. It's the same old story. But let's hear a clip from Jake Tapper who has a book out on all of the people and institutions who have failed to stand up to Trump called Profiles in Cowardice. Let's listen.
The biggest coward in America today is Jeff Bezos. The president of the United States is attacking the free press. He has banned several news organizations from entering the White House. He's taken their press badges away. And what is the owner of one of the most important newspapers in the United States doing? Nothing. What's he saying? Nothing publicly. And I suspect nothing privately. And what makes Bezos such a coward is that he didn't used to be this way. In Trump 1, he was a stalwart owner of the Washington Post. He stood up to Trump's bullying. He said and did all the right things. So, what's happened? I think the answer has to do with his competition with Elon Musk in space. That's the thing he cares about. It's the thing he cares about more than the free press. It's the thing he cares about more than American democracy. I used to think that when you had a billion dollars, that was the ultimate [__] you money, pardon the expression, but it turns out it's I'm [__] money because it gives Trump power over you. He can come after your assets. He can take away what you have. And people in a way who are vastly wealthy seem to be more threatened in terms of what their ambitions are, what they have to lose than people who have a lot less.
Anyway, it is interesting what's going to happen to this class of cowards. I don't know how you look at it. I mean, I get going along with a president, but at some point, not to defend the First Amendment, which was all over, whether it was Mike Waltz, that guy, or any of these Congress people, it's really... that's what worries me, Scott. That's what really gets me is they're like, 'Huh, good point. They're really mean to you.'
I've been thinking about this a lot, and that is I think you and I both thought you want just the right amount of money. I have some friends who I would argue have exactly the wrong amount of money and that is they've made enough money so they feel no impetus to take a job and no job meets the bar they have for what they should do and they wake up two, three, five years later and they've done [__] all but they don't have enough money to retire or live the life they want to lead for the rest of their lives. They have exactly the wrong amount of money. There's something to having a right amount of money where you don't let perfect be the enemy of good. You just get on starting like making your career and making progress. It's great to not have economic anxiety. We have the right amount of money in the sense I was thinking about that and that is we have given enough, we have enough economic security and this is a wonderful thing where we have independence. And what it appears is that when you have billions it creates interdependence.
Yeah. You start becoming dependent upon the government for contracts. And that is [__] you money turns into wealth that gives you more to protect. And we were told billionaires would be value-add because they'd be uniquely independent and no one could buy them. And it turns out the opposite may be true that they may have more soft tissue. Rockets need government contracts. Banks need regulators. Media company mergers need approvals. So kind of the bigger the empire, the more windows somebody can throw a brick through.
And I used to always get angry at these guys and say, 'What's the point of having all this money, right?' But what I'm more empathetic to is that they build huge companies with a lot of people depending on their shareholder value. They become obsessed with the success of these companies. They don't want to be the guy that like Amazon or Blue Origin or whatever it is. And as a result, they go from being true ballers to true [__].
Ballers to [__].
Ballers to [__]. So there's... Anyways, I came up with this insight last night under the influence of edibles. There's a curve of the right amount of money.
Yeah. Curve. What is that number? Do you have a number?
I think about this way. You need a lot more edibles than I do, for example.
Yeah. I have an equation for this and wrote a book about it. Times your annual burn, including how much money you'd like to give away. Take that number, times it by 25. And once you have that number, realize that money is ink in your pen and it can write new stories, but it's no longer your story. And you should be totally focused on relationships and enjoying your life. And beyond that, money becomes another thing you need to manage. And also there becomes a fear of losing it.
Right. That is exactly right. That's exactly right, Scott. I think you're right. That's what I was thinking after I heard this. I was like, 'Oh my god, no. I just don't want to even figure it out. I just want to walk away and make something that's mine.' That's all I felt like. You know what I mean? Like that I own, that I control. You're a lot easier to manage than all these people. And totally enjoyable. Let me say totally.
Thank you for saying that. That may be the nicest thing you've ever said.
Even when we argue, you know, by the way, there is an issue around Robert Kraft. We're not going to get into it, but it is a little scary. The issue with Robert Kraft is like he lets Kanye in and not this guy. Like, if you're going to do this, be consistent. I didn't like him colluding with everybody.
You have to be consistent. You can have whoever you want over here.
I get it. But the colluding among all of them was...
I see. I don't know that part. Who was colluding?
He called all the other stadium owners, all the rich guys, and that to me, that's collusion. I'm sorry. It's just kind of... Oh, wow. That's kind of scary.
That's a little mean, girls. You're allowed to do it.
I know, but it doesn't make me happy. I think it's just... I think we should let everybody say what they want to say. That's what I said. Anyway...
You want to come to my house with a hook nose and make fun of Jews? You're not coming to my house. I...
You don't have First Amendment rights in my house.
I would never do that, by the way.
Well, I know. I'm not saying you would. I'm just trying to make a point. I don't...
I get it. I get it. It's...
I think whatever his name is, McLemore has a right to go on Broadway with a microphone dressed up however he wants and say very offensive things. Public space, have at it, brother.
In this case, what he said wasn't as offensive. It was the past stuff I think that they were reacting to, some of the past behaviors and dress-ups and stuff like that.
That said, pretty ugly. Ed Sheeran looks pretty.
Oh, I didn't believe I have to hear. Oh, poor, poor little Ed Sheeran.
These celebrities try so hard not to get involved and they just keep getting dragged.
Yeah, he kind of woke up and like, what the [__].
Yeah, he then of course did a little virtue signaling in his concert. Anyway, I don't care. I haven't... like the people in Gaza are suffering that kind of stuff. He did one of those speeches.
Wow. You're really going on a limb there.
Yeah, I know. Exactly. He just... I just didn't want to think about insurance. I don't like him so it doesn't matter.
You don't like his music?
No, he's just stupid. It's like elevator music. That is anti-Palestine.
Oh my god. You must like Taylor. Oh my god.
You don't like his music?
I don't. I hate it. In any case, here's the last thing I would say about this whole thing is where is Elon Musk, the free speech warrior, on all this? Nowhere to be seen. These people, as Amanda, my wife, says, were pretending. All these free speech warriors were pretending. Yeah, it's all [__].
It's all [__]. Anyway, let's get back to the tick of it all. When we get back after a quick break, we get ready for Amazon blocks Meta AI's assistant, Muse.
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Scott, we're back. It's time for some AI news because you know it's not killing us this week. But they're just beefing with each other. First up, Amazon has blocked Meta's new Muse AI assistant from shopping on Amazon, saying Meta didn't get permission for letting the agent access its store. Amazon says Muse raises security and privacy concerns because it can access customer accounts and order histories and it doesn't identify itself as an AI agent while browsing. It's interesting because you have... I just downloaded Muse and I gave Mark Zuckerberg almost zero access to anything including my Amazon. It wanted to go buy something for me on Amazon and I said no. I didn't give it the access to it. But if I give it the access, it's none of Amazon's [__] business if I want this thing to shop for me. Not that I would let it. I didn't let Muse have my mail. It's probably going to be very ineffective, or my access to my Gmail, or access to my calendar, or access to much. Some people are giving their financial stuff. Not giving it access. I just want to see how it does on lots of little things like I'm going to Vienna tomorrow. What's a good walk? That kind of stuff. What do you think about this push, pushing them, pushing back Amazon? This is going to happen a lot, right? Correct. Because they're going to want you to use their Amazon AI presumably, which I use by the way when I use the service. I...
I like your take and I'm just sort of processing this real time because for example, if you use a VPN...
And you do it at 2 in the morning or you fool, you say you dial into United Airlines or JetBlue from a different country at a different time, it'll give you a lower fare.
