The biggest psychological tax cut in history would be if we elected a technocrat who maybe checked in once a month.
Yeah, I agree. But wasn't in your face every day and dominating the table conversation at dinner.
Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher with my annual cold. Nice.
Uh, it seems it seems to be semiannual. See, the thing is it's kids.
Yeah, it is. But I haven't gotten sick for a while, actually.
Yeah, it's been a while. Very long. You remember I got sick all the time when they were babies.
Yeah. So, I'm I'm This is going to sound very maha, but I think I've been sick two or three times as an adult, and I'm convinced it's because I never went to the doctor and never had antibiotics as a kid.
Oh, interesting. What? Really? That's
I get sick on the dime every 10 years.
I don't get sick. I have a cough or something. But no, my point is I I couldn't tell you the last time I was sick.
Anyway, let's get to the news. As we record, Cole Thomas Allen, the 31-year-old suspect in the White House Correspondents' Dinner shooting, is set to be arraigned in federal court. He'll be charged with two counts of using a firearm and one count of assault on a federal official using a dangerous weapon. US Attorney for DC Janine Piro says more charges are expected. Allen was arrested Saturday night after running through a security checkpoint at the Washington Hilton and exchanging fire with law enforcement. Um, President Trump and top officials were rushed out of the room while journalists and other attendees took cover under the tables except one guy who kept eating his salad. Um, the motive is still being determined though Allen appeared to be targeting Trump and the administration officials but not Kash Patel for some reason. According to his writings, he also mentioned lack of security and that he expected more security there. He was a guest at the hotel and he walked very close to the ballroom. I have been there and various people are debating it, but he was very close. He's right before the stairs that you go down into the ballroom, um, having been there. Um, we'll get to to Trump and the the ballroom stuff, but what was your initial reaction and what do you make of the coverage? I was I I was not I there's some people did a great job and it's worth noting by the way the president, cabinet officials and journalists experienced Saturday night is something that many Americans face every day especially school kids though without the protection of the Secret Service. So this was the finest protection in the land and it didn't really work as well as it should have. Um, although nobody got hurt, um, except for one officer, uh, who was shot. Your first thoughts?
Well, my first thoughts were somewhat superficial on that is the brand that is the US is just eroding around the world. You know, Putin isn't chased out by a gunman of a hall that's supposed to be a social gathering. It just America comes across as a rogue nation that is chaotic and has no control internally. But immediately, I don't think I don't think it's fair to say that the president is so incendiary that this is his fault. Nor do I think it's fair to say that the Democrats being critical of the president raises escalation of violence. I think at the end of the day, you have a large cohort of of usually young men who have a mental breakdown or a psychotic break and then they have access to firearms and they typically go after in what they believe will be a restoration of social capital and a heroic act of violence. They go after very very famous people. And the thing about Trump, and I'm not saying his fault, but it is just a fact.
He's in everyone's face and in their brain all goddamn day over and over and over.
Yeah. He's like the biggest psychological tax cut in history would be if we elected a technocrat who maybe checked in once a month.
Yeah, I agree. But wasn't in your face every day and dominating the table conversation at dinner.
And so the most famous people will always unfortunately be targets that that that mental illness will manifest in more shootings as long as people have access this type of access to guns. If he had tried to fly, he wouldn't have been able to do it. But you can cross state lines on a train with firearms. Also, my first and I'll let you go. My also my first reaction is when I heard about this guy, a Caltech grad who was teacher of the year.
He's a very good writer by the way and he's very eloquent. You read his manifesto and it's like Jesus, I don't agree with it, but the guy is
It's just such a tragedy. His life is ruined.
And to see to see an event I think the event is stupid. I was invited last year. I have no desire as part of what I'll call the fringe alternative media show up and have basically a hijacker lecture me about air safety. I do not understand how people in the media go to a go to a celebration in ties to hear a man say you're fake news and you're I I have no idea why anyone would show. Kudos to the New York Times who does not go.
There were times reporters there covering the president in the pool which seems perfectly appropriate. They travel with him wherever he goes. But I have to say I just I covered it as back as I've noticed you said I covered it back in the Truman administration. Um, I mean I mean the Roosevelt administration tr
I got that I got that wrong. I'm sorry. It was um it was uh yeah that's right. I was going to I was waiting for I couldn't remember FDR.
I hated it when I covered it 20-some years ago. I thought it was such a suckup between um public officials and the media. I don't like the gridiron dinner. I don't like any of I hated covering them. And even then it seemed like so um it's one of the reasons I left Washington sort of the the cozy relationship. And now he was going to come and insult them. First of all, everyone in that room in his cabinet has taken shots at the press in a really repulsive way. And even though other presidents have been hostile to the press, this is explicit attacks. Um, and so he was ready to and even Carolyn Levitt said it. He's some shots will be fired. That's the last thing she said like minutes before this happened to a a media person. And he was going to attack everyone. And I was thinking I was talking to a few people there. I'm like, "What are you going to do if he starts directly attacking you or your company? You're going to get up and walk in a really gross and crass way, which he was planning to do, I believe." Um, and then of course he used the opportunity for propaganda. Every single one of his lackeys messaged the same thing about the ballroom. We'll get to that in a second. Um, and and it just is this sort of and I thought the press were especially lap doggy throughout and also performative as influencers. Three people stood out as doing their job, which was Wolf Blitzer, who happened to be near the gunman. He just called in from his phone and he said, "What happened?" That's it. He didn't say, "I I lost my shoe." Which he apparently did. He didn't say, "Oh, woe is me." He didn't act like um it was anything but his job to say to tell CNN what happened. Same thing with Sarah Seidner. Very calm. Same thing actually with Stephanie Ruhle. Tons of people both online, especially online and on on the air were like this is how I feel about this. And I was like I don't give a what you feel about it. What is happening? What's going on? Um, and a lot of like there was one reporter who was pointing the camera towards herself. Like I don't not what was happening like I'm under the table. I'm like good for you if you're going to do this pointed outwards so we can see what's there was plenty of video by the way which was disturbing but um it just was this like all these media people trying to behave like and get their licks in like they were influencers and I just and then of course the influencers were too you know doing you know all manner of nonsense. So I found it very disappointing in the press conference after they let him get away with stuff. The only you know at one point Norah O'Donnell from CBS which has been particularly obsequious to Trump got the interview but Norah did try her best to do like tough question not tough questions but pertinent questions and Trump called her a disgrace. So he had just minutes just the day before talked about unity and then he was talk he was calling her a disgrace and you're discuss whatever whatever words he uses for the press. So, I thought it was a fail. I thought init the whole thing is a fail. Um, but it's uh and then there was I mean a party I happened to have been invited to which I didn't go to obviously after they kept doing the party, you know, it's just weird. Anyway,
But we don't in a in a culture of violence or again for me at all reverse engineers do. We don't have a monopoly on political division. We don't have a monopoly on mentally ill men. We have a monopoly on political division mentally ill men with access to just such easy access to firearms and also the secret service. There's only so much you can do if you want a president to go out in the public. If you want to be able to walk around freely the most disappointing thing that there was more private security employed in America than there are cops now and the secret service can only do so much. The other thing is this levy is such an enormous tax on us. One, one of the things I love about my school here in London, you know what they don't have?
They do not have shooter drills.
Yeah. I I just don't think any 11-year-old should have to engage in a shooter drill. I just something's wrong, right? And the other tax we're about to all pay as someone who travels a lot. I travel a lot to hotels where there'll be some political event or whatever or they're hosting the president of Finland. It's going to be another 10 minutes to get in and out of a hotel now because part of the security lapse here was this guy figured out a hack and that is just staying at the hotel being a guest. You get past the first level of security.
He could have gotten all the way to the ballroom without that. I have to tell you it's
But didn't he have did wasn't it easier because he checked into the hotel?
He could bring his gun in. Yes. But he could have hidden a gun easily. There there is so little I've go I don't go to these things anymore cuz there's so little security. And then the fact that you have to do security. I I mean although I have to say there was there was more security at a concert than you know than anything else that I've been to. But this should be the top level of security. And then you had the whole press corps hiding under tables. It's just the whole visual is so bad. And then the per and then Trump of course took advantage of it in the aftermath of the shooting. He was quick to say the incident underscored the need for his $400 million White House ballroom. He argued that if the event had been held in a military top secret ballroom, whatever that is, the shooting never would have happened. Of course, well, no, the White House has been attacked. But still, um, it's not just Trump. MAGA accounts and I said administration officials started like acting ag Todd Blanche are tweeting about the ballroom instantly. There were con, of course, the worst part about it were these conspiracy theories floating around from the left and the right claiming the shooting was staged or that they let him in so that they could create a situation so that they can pitch the ballroom or that it wasn't they had him in a holding room. Uh, you know, this that was insane, you know.
So, so ju just a just a quick comment because I'm I'm really I'm asking this question and I'm open to learning here because I purposely try to avoid media this weekend. The notion that okay this is the world we live in both sides will try and make political hay of it that in fact one use of the ballroom might be an an ability to have more secure events like this or events like this with more security to me distinct of the immediate politicization of a of a violent event or near violent event was wrong but that argument to me seems reasonable your thoughts
Yes, yes, but not the way he did it and he's just trying to jam it through he just tore down the house without any he is supposed to consult with Congress. He's he just he just wanted to jam it through. There's also a whole facility under there that nobody knows anything about. Probably should they. Um, but the except for the right people, but um who whose job it is is to protect the White House. Um, there's no question they need a ballroom at the White House. I've gone there a million times and it's really underwhelming as a as a facility. That said, this event couldn't have fit in that. It's too small. the even though the ballroom is ridiculously large. So he the fact that he took the opportunity for something it could have never taken place there um was one thing but I don't I I'm not I don't equivalent for lots of reasons for Prince King Charles etc etc bringing more people in having more events there although that's a thing of it in and of itself if you've ever tried to get in and out of the White House that takes 3 years sometimes um but that's not the it's not linked I link it suddenly here and and it just seemed like oh let's you any opportunity of a disaster or a tragedy to push for something that is unreasonable to have a ballroom. It's unreasonable how he did it and then use this as an excuse to do so. I think it just is it makes us look just lots of people don't want the ballroom. Most people think it's a good idea if he had done it in the way where he's consulting architects, where he's consulting Congress and everything else. Instead, he's now going to try to shove it through. And then the instant something tragic happens, MAGA accounts and these administration officials, every opportunity is an opportunity for press in order to to to either shine up himself as a hero of some sort or to get what he wants. And that to me is not how America works. I'm sorry. I just I I agree with you. It's reasonable to think we should have a ballroom, but they could only hold a certain amount of things in this ballroom even gargantuan size.
I just thought you just walk away. You always want to walk away with this was right, this was wrong, this is who's at fault. I just looked at this and just said, "This is bad." I just
You're right. I think there's not I don't think it illuminates anything about Democrats or Republicans or the president. I think what it illuminates is our country is in a terrible state and and okay, let me blame someone. I just I think in 30 years we're going to look back on this era and we're we're going to be just horrified at how we put cyanide in our drinking water called social media and kept drinking it and just it makes everyone more Americans are fearful of their neighbors than Russian soldiers pouring over the border in Ukraine. They're convinced the enemy is the guy with the wrong political sign across the street from him or her. And every day you're taught to believe in what is a page out of the fascist handbook, which is incredibly unfortunately profitable. You're taught to believe that it's the enemy within. It's not climate change. It's not income inequality. It's not it's not a fascist government or someone trying to invade Europe. It's not the cease. The enemy is within is us.
Is us. The enemy is us. No, I agree with you. It feels very McCarthy era and you're right. The constant non-stop pitching. I don't I think the media Trump has been doing propaganda for a decade now. It's a decade in our brains and the media still hasn't figured out how to cover him. They should get back to the important things. Iran, affordability, gas prices. You know, I do think the Epstein files is an important story. I don't think it's the most important story, but it talks it's about corruption, about corruption, about um getting getting kids safe in schools. Like, if this is an opportunity to talk about kids if they suddenly feel nervous cuz they had a toss under the table to understand what it's like for kids, fine. Like, I don't care. I just think no one behaved in any way that was any way that is American to me. Anyway, we'll move on. Go ahead. Sorry. Let me just have one side note because obviously I've been getting all these Tik Toks. I will say this, there was a contrast just going to this this Stephen Miller.
Neither do I. He did walk out his wife in a very
He did walk out his wife. Did you see what the other men did?
And Caroline Hines was chasing RFK.
Yeah, I feel I feel petty even saying this, but at least like like to Stephen Stephen Miller's instincts were the correct ones.
Yeah, he did. He he had his hands on his wife and was escorting his wife out. Um, anyway, I there's no way not to come away from this and just feel a little bit shittier. I don't
I would agree. I think that's exactly the reaction to have. I just I would like the press I I don't Trump is Trump. He's going to behave anyway the the same way every single time and then he'll switch right back to nasty. Let me say the press could do a better job. And I do give kudos to people who just were reporting the facts and I agree. It's a news story, but seriously, I don't really I I No, I know a lot of people are traumatized, but I don't want to know how you feel. I want you to tell me what's happening as a news news organization. That's all. And I don't want to know what you think of unity. I don't know what I don't want to hear about it. I just want you to tell me what's going on, who this guy is, and do the reporting. Anyway, I love the media, and I was repulsed. Um, okay. Uh, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Elon Musk and Sam Altman head to court. Big story. Actually, support for the show comes from Upwork. When you're ready to grow your team, the last thing you want is for the hiring process to become a headache. Instead of taking weeks to scour resumes and job boards only to be disappointed by what you find, you can try Upwork instead. Upwork can make it easier to bring on the right freelancers right when you need them. You can browse profiles, review past work, and get help scoping the role so you can hire with confidence and get started quickly. Seriously, you could connect with the right freelancer in just a few hours, especially when you sign up with Business Plus. Their AI-powered shortlisting pairs you with the top 1% of talent in under six hours. No endless searching required. Upwork also cuts down operational hassle by handling things like contracts and payments in one place, so you can spend more time running your business. Visit upwork.com right now and just post your job for free. That is upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. So that's upwk.com upwork.com.
Scott, we're back with more news. Elon Musk and Sam Altman are headed to court this week over OpenAI's conversion to a for-profit entity. Musk is asking for over $150 billion in damages from OpenAI and Microsoft and for Altman to be removed from the company's board and and a CEO. I think um jury selection is taking place as we tape on Monday and opening arguments are expected on Tuesday starting off with several week-long trial. Musk, Altman and Satya Nadella as well as other big tech figures are expected to testify. I we got a clip from um actually CNN legal uh senior legal analyst Elie Honig who I've interviewed many times for. I think he's really smart on what's to come. I thought he would have an interesting take. The thing about trial is it all comes out because both sides by now have engaged in discovery, meaning they have one another's internal emails, texts, corporate communications. Three things I'm watching for. First of all, what were Altman and Musk and their principles saying about AI? Do they view it as an existential threat or something else? Second of all, what do the employees think of the bosses? What are the people who work in these companies really saying to one another about Sam Altman and Elon Musk? What are they saying about Kara Swisher? I'll bet you're in there, Kara. I'll bet your name pops up in this trial. And then third of all, how will Altman and Musk fare on cross-exam? Cuz these are two guys, moguls, used to being told, "Yes, sir. Yes, sir." Now they're going to get cross-examined by aggressive litigators who are looking to undermine them, discredit them, maybe even embarrass them. How's that going to go? This will be fascinating. Check it out.
Uh, I thought that was pretty smart. I mean, it's the technical aspects of this are really interesting. Um, what I don't understand is why this was going to trial, why they didn't settle. Um, the only thing I can think of is that I mean to me OpenAI should have somehow settled with him. But there's no plus for Musk to settle even though most odds are that he is going to lose. Um, it's a really complex trial. It's a jury trial but the jurors cannot decide on damages. The judge only can. The judge allowed certain things to go forward that most people think are ridiculous. Um, you know, most of the odds are Musk will not win. But I can't believe they didn't settle cuz my only thing is is Musk loves this. He's already a villain. And when you you start wrestling with a pig, the pig likes it and you get filthy. And so I don't think it's good for OpenAI at all.
It's interesting. I had and again you you you might be right here, I might be wrong. My initial reaction was that Musk has more to lose and that he'll settle right as the trial is beginning or right after it starts.
Musk isn't doing this cuz he's Okay, so the basic premise is this is supposed to be a nonprofit focusing on protecting the public from AI. Okay. He then, my understanding is wanted to buy it or he wanted to control it.
He wanted to control it. Yes. And then walked out. He did walk out.
And so and then when Altman said, "No, you don't get to control it." He said, "Then I'm taking my ball and I'm leaving." thing and he signed a ton of documents saying I no longer have ownership in this.
And then when it converted to become the leading AI platform in the world, he went crazy
And he has his own company
That he But here's a guy who's very concerned with ensuring there's an entity policing AI safety and regulation, but he starts his own for-profit AI.
As your the commentator very deftly said, these guys aren't used to a cross-examination with emails that says, "I'm not impressed with you. You are full of You wanted to control this. When you couldn't control it, you threw a hit. You threw a fit. You have signed papers that are legally enforceable with no ownership. And now, like the Twitter when he took over tried to get out of the Twitter deal saying, "Yeah, this guy, he's angry that he he walked away from what ended up being the best I kicking myself because I've had two investments recently that have gone bad and they needed to raise more capital. And one of the things about investing early is you have your pro rata. And I wasn't sure whether to invest or not. And on one specifically, I didn't do my pro rata. And then they figured out a way to develop these innovative turbines to power off-grid AI centers. And the valuation has gone up 10x.
Wow. And so you feel like I'm a
But I'm not going to go back and sue the company. I mean,
So I I think Discovery here I think Musk's lawyers are going to say, you realize you can't perjure yourself. This isn't Twitter. You can't lie. And when they he goes, "This is the" and they the day before in the briefing or the coaching of him, they're going to say, "This is what I would ask you and you can't lie and this is the evidence they're going to bring up and he's going to go settle this."
I think he's playing poker.
Like, by the way, he has settled.
Remember the Delaware Chancery Court?
He was like, "Threatening threatening threatening." Okay.
I I think you're very smart here. I think that's probably my I don't believe none of them settled you know I don't I guess going to court is always like why couldn't you possibly settle this right essentially very crude instrument
Which I don't understand why neither of them did on both sides right
And it seemed like I mean it's always up until the trial where they settle right that's always the
Well he's trying to slow them down he's trying to create doubt
Hurt their fundraising capabilities slow them down IPO So
I think if I believe if Musk want Musk ideally I believe if he was and he's very smart would be trying to delay the case to create to maintain
He has I think he has done that. I think he's out
And OpenAI wants to go to court and say you signed papers
Legally forfeiting your ownership and governance here. Yeah,
Yeah. One of the things that's interesting about it is that obviously he created his own companies that aren't doing as well. Um, is that he when I when he both of them started talking about this back in the day they were worried about the strength of Google and Facebook and others they were maybe in their own self-interest but at the time it was a real I would say a genuine worry about where AI was being developed especially that the government had abrogated its responsibility so you know these two have come a long way what's interesting it's also a duel of their reputations now Elon's full-on villain now right so it'll be interesting to see how jury thinks of him. Altman now doesn't have a great reputation, right? Is he a liar? There's a lot of, you know, after the Ronan Farrow piece and everything else. The thing is, I think most juries haven't really paid attention to the Sam Altman portion of this reputation decline. I think they all know Elon Musk is a giant So, I think that probably um or you know, every bit of him jumping up and down and being so partisan and you know, posting racist stuff all over the he's doing that more than ever recently. Um, I think he's in in a on his back foot on this because I as much as I'd like to paint Sam as this oily liar essentially, I don't think it's sunk in with most people. I don't I just don't I don't think they even know who he is kind of thing. But
Not only that, the secret weapon here I think for for OpenAI will be Nadella. I think Nadella will reflect really well on OpenAI. He comes across as very measured.
And I I I would love to be I would love to be the defense counsel here. It's like, okay, so you're claiming you're so concerned about protection and safety. What have you done? Have you did you go and start? You have you're the wealthiest man in the world. Did you start another entity looking at safety or oh wait, you've you've you started a for-profit AI and you're competing against this company. Isn't this nothing but an attempt to slow them down because you're jealous you up and sold your shares? I I just I think this is going to be a very easy narrative for for the defense to say this the wealthiest man in the world is trying to abuse you, waste your time and get in the way of the capitalism, the small part of capitalism, the small part of the internet he doesn't own and he's furious about it. He owns space. He owns EVs. He owns, you know, a 180 character messaging application. But because he up and sold the best corner of AI, he now wants it back.
He wants everything. Yeah. He's this greedy Yeah, it's true. I don't think slamming Altman's going to work here. And he's tried to, trust, he's really tried to and personally and professionally. Um, but
It'll make them both look bad. There'll be emails that'll come out that'll be like, "Everyone look bad."
Everyone looks bad. Well, it's great. It's great for brand AI. Again, the only one who looks good, Dario, whom I spent time with this weekend. He's a
What was your general impression?
It was an off the record thing, but he was, I have to say, very funny. Doesn't like any of these people, by the way. Um, but very funny. I'm not going to call him Steve Jobs, but he at least had range to talk about. You know, I reread his essay um machines of loving grace, which I hated the headline of many. It was two years ago and was talking about that and I have to say he's erudite like he was quoting from Arcadia and stuff like that. And I think he he's a he's a very complex and interesting figure and much more jolly than I give him credit for in a way. So he's it's you know he's having the time of his life because they're all like shooting each other in the head and he's merrily going along and being the successful one and creating the best technology. So anyway, I I I really actually I hate to say this cuz I I really enjoyed talking to him. I did. It was it was fun. It was he also give gives as good as he gets. Um, and I like that like he wasn't scared of questions which a lot of them get all
Did you do it was it on with Kara Swisher?
No, not yet. But he's coming on with Kara and I told him about your interest. Anyway, I really enjoyed it. It was an enjoyable interview, I have to say. Um, by the way, speaking of Sam Altman, he apologized to the community of Uvalde for failing to alert authorities about an account of a shooter who killed eight people and whose ChatGPT account was suspended for violent messages. In the letter, Altman reaffirmed a commitment to find ways to prevent similar tragedies in the future. I I this is it's always a backwards looking like oh sorry I don't know I just feel like they can apologize all they want why don't they create services that have some level of safety or reporting uh despite all the free speech stuff there's some clear clear worries that people have if you had someone in your neighborhood who was doing this you would turn them in would so I don't know what to say
We had a school I was involved in Florida you know we had a kid writing or drawing violent weird images. Next day FBI was at their house looking for firearms. And so there's got to be I mean to Sam's credit he did what most of these guys don't do. He apologized um and he's he is claiming to want to put in some sort of safeguards but he we shouldn't need their apologies and their safeguards. There should be regularly help here.
It should be liability. It should be you guys have this you have technology that can scan basically everything that's ever been written in history and then start making really intelligent thesis on what should be written about this topic by recognizing past patterns of everything that has been written in history. You should be able to highlight threats pretty easily and then immediately using the agentic layer notify that local police department and not overwhelm them but say okay this is level nine threat.
What do you want to do with it? What how can we cooperate with you?
And that's where humans get involved. We you know they they observe it. This is just reporting possible danger and it should be easy for these people but it's not. By the way, speaking of Anthropic, Google plans to invest as much as $40 billion in the company, $10 billion now, and another $30 billion would be invested when Anthropic meets certain milestones. Probably smart move from Google, who is also a dominant player in this who is quietly I think remember your I said I think Google will win all this because they have all the parts. I think they've handled this really well and I think investing in Anthropic in this case is probably a very good idea for them.
Yeah. And then what I saw which shocked me is there it's val the deal values Anthropic at 350 billion. I was potentially I indirectly own Anthropic shares but
No from you bought the Sam Bankman-Fried stuff right
Yeah about the FTX claims which owned a bunch of Anthropic lot
Um, but anyways the uh in the secondary market I follow the secondary markets Anthropic trading at a trillion dollars.
Anthropic is now trading at a higher valuation in the secondary markets than
OpenAI. So Google coming in here, they'll get a preference on it.
They're strategic. Yeah, it's a great investment. I would invest. Um, hello Dario. I would invest at 300 of $350 million.
I'll I'll give you his let him know. Anyway,
