He's blaming everybody. And it's the same thing. Oh, it's vandals. It's this, it's that. It's him. He's just a disaster.
Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher, live from the south of France.
That's our entire French.
That's it. But we got a lot to get to today. There's so much going on, including Green Watergate. Get it? Green Watergate. I told you this thing would blow up. President Trump says it will be, he said, will begin fixing the seriously vandalized reflecting pool. Vandalized by him. Trump is claiming without evidence. He's lying that vandals cut the 250 ft gash in the pool's new lining and poured corrosive and destructive chemicals into the water. This is nonsense. There's cameras everywhere in Washington, just so you know. He said multiple people have been arrested tied to the alleged destruction. This is just nonsense. One of them was a former Olympian who was accused by the park police of destroying government property. He says, 'You reach down to touch a strip of peeling paint.' I was down there, Scott, it was peeling. Nobody was touching it. Everyone was sort of shocked and amazed by how grotesque it was because you know, you go down there. I've gone down there quite a bit and I've never really noticed the skankiness of it. And it really is. It's green. All this paint's peeling off. So, he's lying. And Trump, of course, should be accused of vandalizing a lot of Washington, whether it was the East Wing or the grass in front of the White House for his party. You know, it's just ridiculous. But it's taking on a life of its own. It really is in terms of a metaphorical thing. Or maybe you don't think that.
No, I mean, the president is caught between two straits of water. It's just...
And [laughter] we'll get to that in a minute.
I personally, I think this is kind of a non-story. America's turning 250 and we've managed to turn a reflecting pool into a culture war. I just, for God's sakes, just fix it and let's move on. I don't, I kind of, you know, they're lying and saying that it's sabotage and vandalism. It isn't. It's incompetence. It's a government project turning into another government project. And the Democrats love to talk about... I think we have bigger fish to fry.
I would agree, but I don't think it's a bad... I think people get it in a second because it's again, as I told you, it's a symbol and it's also the guy who did it is another piece of grift.
100%. Zero bid contract. Yeah.
And it looks incompetent. It looks incompetent. And you know, one of the jokes online was that, you know, Washington is now scarred after he took over on the Lion King. But there is more to that because then you link it, I think, with Iran too, which continues to be like a problem. Like here's, you know, they keep going back and forth and that is the real problem. It is, but it's symbolic of just complete idiocy, like really stupid. We'll get to some other stupid things coming up, but talk a little bit about... I know I noticed you were talking about a lot online the MOU, which seems the Iranians seem to have us by the shorthairs. That's what it feels like to me. I don't know about you, but they're not doing anything. They're just dragging us on, I guess, and being rude to JD Vance, which I completely think they should be. Trump has delivered on his promise of unconditional surrender. The problem is we're the ones unconditionally surrendering, right?
It is insane. Anyone who can do math, anyone who understands a memo of understanding, anyone who can look at their activities, in my mind, it is just so incredibly clear and tragic what is going on. The IRGC recognizes he's left. The midterms are coming up. It is a very unpopular war. He got no support from the public, from Congress, from other nations. He underestimated the resilience of the missile systems. He has handed them something more powerful than a nuclear weapon, and that is an ability to choke the carotid artery of the global economy in the Strait of Hormuz. They know we are out, right? And they do. All they have to do is delay an obfuscation. It's just delay. Every day that goes by, it's less likely we're going to go back in with military action. No, he can't. He really can't. They have to operate between... humor them, agree to meet in Switzerland, don't get a deal done. They have the perfect false flag: oh, Israel's bombed Lebanon, you're not living up to your part of the agreement. We're out. Right? They have no intention of giving anything back. And the only thing that's going to come out of this besides Trump's incompetence and JD Vance, you know, having about as long a presidential run as Senator Gillibrand, is that we are going to look back on this and recognize that one of the greatest acts of diplomacy was the JCPOA.
Right, which was... and Obama's saying so. He's doing a lot of press right now around it, by the way. The comparative...
We had Russia and China sign, or they were co-signers of the agreement. We can't get Israel to sign this agreement, much less European nations. We had limits at 3.7 enrichment. They're already at 60. There's no... there's no constraints around nuclear enrichment in the agreement. He keeps saying all these threats, or we'll open the Strait of Hormuz. We'll get you. We'll get you. I know... the Strait of Hormuz would take... to keep it open would take two carrier strike forces, paratroopers and marines on the ground on Iranian soil. That is not going to happen. The net net here is the following: America comes out of this much weaker, Iran much stronger, and we're going to look back and realize that the JCPOA was one of the more impressive acts of diplomacy of the last 50 years.
Yep. Except they continue to deny it. It's really like it's the same thing with the reflecting pool. And the reason why I'm harping on it, it's the same thing. It's the same kind of like, no, this is what's happening. You know, you've seen all these communications from the White House, and we look, it looks so ridiculous when it's the reflecting pool, but it's the same exact communications. You know, they're blaming the New York Times, they're blaming, you know, for the coverage, he's blaming Obama, he's blaming everybody. And it's the same thing. Oh, it's vandals. It's this, it's that. It's him. He's just a disaster. And again, I point to finally someone is starting to write about it, his mental state which seems demented, and we'll get into that a little bit more. But the way he's sort of lashing out in this crazy way when it's all his fault seems... and of course blaming poor JD Vance. I mean, I never feel that sorry for that guy, but I got to say he's been dragged. He's been penced. I don't know what else to say. He's sort of stuck holding the bag here and having to defend it. And it's worse than when Kamala Harris even lightly said, 'I wouldn't change a thing on The View.' Right. Sort of the same exact thing. So, I mean, it's disastrous for the Republicans in so many ways because he doesn't have an out. So, my worry, because I think he lashes out like arresting back Jeanine Pirro, arresting people for this thing. This is like, let me tell you, Jean, I was down there. I didn't touch the strip of paint, but it was stripping off all by itself. Is going to be a disaster. These people are soiling themselves in the most ridiculous of ways. And in Iran, it's the same, and with the reflecting pool, it's just stupid, although costly to us as taxpayers, and the same thing with the rest of the mess he's making. But in this case it's disastrous. I mean, really truly dis... I don't know how anyone's going to get us out of this because we got two more years of this lunatic as a...
I don't even know what could happen. He gets sidelined. What? I don't know. Like he's not going anywhere even if he loses power. If Democrats take Congress, have the power of subpoena, and hopefully if they were to get back the Senate at a minimum, there'd be enough power to get in the way of a lot of this stuff.
Except that Iran will then develop a nuclear weapon. I feel like they now, you know what I mean? Like that's where the worry... that's the only thing we all agree on. Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon. But wow, we've given him a chance here. He's... this is... and then the economy itself. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. We come back, resignations, feuds, and more. And we'll get into all the European political drama.
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Scott, we're back with big news here in Europe. There's a lot going on. Keir Starmer just announced he's stepping down as Britain's prime minister, giving in to mounting pressure from his own party. Starmer said he'll stay in office until a new party leader is selected, and likely to be this guy named Andy Burnham, former mayor of Greater Manchester, very popular guy. Trump got ahead of the announcement over the weekend, noting Starmer would step down and saying he had failed badly on immigration and energy policy. Also a lot of attacks from Elon Musk, by the way. Starmer's resignation comes almost 10 years to the day since the Brexit vote. The UK has had six prime ministers in that time.
It's crazy. Talk a little bit about... you live there. What has happened here? Obviously, he was going to lose an election and he had won in a landslide a very short time ago.
I think a lot of it comes down to economics and that is, I mean, it's very strange. BVI, Turks and Caicos, St. Barts and Hawaii are parts of those nations, but they're not. They're islands that have an entirely different culture. I feel that way about London. I think London's essentially an island in the UK because if you look at the UK, seven out of 10 IPOs in the last 10 years are below the offering price. GDP was supposed to take a 4 to 6% hit from Brexit, the second greatest own goal in geopolitical history behind our entry into Iraq. You have now the UK as a whole has a lower average household income than Mississippi. And then there's London, which is essentially where the richest people in the world park capital and have a European lifestyle without actually engaging in the UK economy. I mean, it's just a very strange place. Since I have moved there, after we have a new prime minister in several weeks, I've been there four years. This will be my fifth prime minister.
Fifth, right? You had conservatives. There was a bunch of... There was a conservative guy. There was Boris.
It's not politics. It's speed dating. It's beginning to feel like a LinkedIn jobs page. It's just so, you know, but without growth, until they figure out a way... I thought they should do Brexit. They should reintegrate into the European economy because without growth, all of this gets harder and harder. And the weird... the quagmire here, or not the quagmire, the enigma is that the UK has all the underpinnings of a great democracy and economic growth engine. It has incredible universities, rule of law, culture compounds. Everybody in the world wants to or wouldn't mind the idea of living in the UK for a few years. It's a wonderful place. And yet they... OpenAI, Anthropic, and SpaceX are going to raise 150 billion in fresh capital. The UK raised a total of 2 billion last year in its entire IPO market. They just can't get out of their own way. And Brexit. And just to go to politics, since World War II, no individual has done more harm to Britain in my view than Nigel Farage, who might be a prime minister at some point. So I have stayed woefully ignorant to UK politics, but it is difficult for me to understand how the foundation of success, how they continue to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory here. And I got to think it's something, it's got to be a big bold move. Even the non-dom thing, we kicked out basically, they chased a lot of billionaires out of the UK and I understand the sentiment. It's let's tickle the middle-class sensibilities of people who are angry, but at the same time the treasury's gone down because a lot of wealthy people are leaving and that reduces your tax base to, you know, provide for the NHS and these social services. But this is, I mean, UK politics... and then what do you have? You have the rise of populism. They have had real problems. You know, to a certain extent, it's a metaphor for the West. You have... or when the West goes wrong: stagnant wages, housing shortages, immigration anxiety, and institutional distrust.
You also have a lot of meddling by Elon Musk in terms of backing a bunch of very violent people against immigrants.
American export is political divisiveness, right? Yeah. It's not Elon himself that's meddling quite a bit.
Yeah. But then JD Vance comes over and lectures them about free speech. It's like we shouldn't, you know, in my view, Americans should be here saying, 'You're our greatest ally. How can we help? What can we do together? How do we open more free trade agreements?' Instead, instead Musk shows up and says, 'Rise up, white people.' Or, I mean, essentially JD Vance comes over and waves his finger at them around free speech. And now they've got to figure out a way to basically untangle the technology. They're new... Britain's nuclear arsenal runs on American technology and all of a sudden Europe is waking up and going, 'What the [__]?' We have become... conservatives... the conservatives aren't popular either. Farage kind of is. It's like nobody's popular. It's a really angry nation. But when you don't have growth, people's prosperity goes down and they just get angrier and angrier. So I, again, not to talk too much about money, but they have got to figure out a way to get growth going. Again, when your growth grows, you have more money, you have more flexibility, you have more power abroad, you have more... you can't have a powerful nation that's shrinking its GDP. And again, I was in the UK when Brexit happened and the pound crashed. It's cost them 8% of their GDP, which is like taking hundreds of billions of pounds into the street and just lighting it on fire.
Yeah, they may return to the... I mean, it's interesting because Europe is getting more and more unified. Speaking of which, Trump's latest feud is with one of his pals, basically his European Marjorie Taylor Greene, Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni. The spat started after Trump, this is so strange. Again, I'm sorry, this guy's lost his mind. After Trump claimed Meloni begged him for a photo at last week's G7 summit in France. Meloni responded with a video on Instagram, which was quite remarkable, calling Trump's claims totally fabricated and saying, 'Italia and I never beg.' She also accused Trump of being more accommodating to the enemies of the West than his own allies. Trump then doubled down, saying, 'Meloni is doing poorly in Italy with her level of popularity,' to which she fired back, 'My popularity is none of your concern. I suggest you focus on yours,' pointing to his bad, increasingly lowering popularity. Boy, this woman, even though, let me just, let's be clear, she's anti-gay marriage. She's anti-trans. She's anti-immigrant. She's not... she's Marjorie Taylor Greene essentially. This is the European version of her. And at the same time, I was like, 'Go Giorgia.' Like, it was kind of interesting that he continues. Again, the sign of someone who is having some cognitive problems, it seemed like to me. Not this is usually like this. He's always been an [__], but not this much of an [__]. Like, and she just took it to him, which I found really... I mean, obviously it helps her in Italy because he's not popular there. He's not popular anywhere in Europe now. And they were tight as ticks, if you recall, you know.
But this is again, greatness is in the agency of others. And European countries have been our strongest allies. We share same values, same democracies. We've worked together. We've had incredible... the post-World War II world was largely shaped by America and European values. And Trump decides again he's figured out a way to manage to feud with and alienate allies while simultaneously praising adversaries. And we've spent 80 years developing these alliances. And Trump treats them like some sort of fantasy football league. And Meloni, to her credit, she remains... her popularity is actually greater than most Western leaders. And then he decides to pick a fight with one of the few European leaders who actually likes him. And is this... none of this...
She went at him on the pope too. She doesn't much like his comments on the pope either.
Yeah. Well, I mean, come on, criticizing the pope is like, if someone in Italy, you just don't do... you don't do that. None of this makes any sense. Kara, it doesn't make any sense. None of it. I believe her. Believe the woman. [laughter] I totally believe her. I believe her.
She's such a creep. But this is interesting because she's a really... because she's really, if you actually look at a lot of her policies, they're pretty heinous in terms of how she behaves. But she's sort of shifted. I mean, she used Trump to sort of get there and now she's cutting him loose like more than others. Actually, the others haven't been quite as critical of him. Starmer certainly hasn't. Right. Or any of them have. I don't know that the Germans have it. This... she's really taken it to the wall.
Yeah. I think most of them have decided to wait him out. It's a smart move for her because she comes across as a leader and not afraid. And you know, I...
It's not good for her. We look terrible. Once again, by the way, it's really interesting to be in Europe because a lot of people are saying, 'You don't like Trump, do you?' To me, I'm like, 'No.' Really? No. Yeah. A lot of the Europeans sort of test it. When we were in Paris several different times, like, 'You're not a fan of Trump.' I'm like, hardly. Like, hello, lesbian family, like, no. And so they asked several Europeans, there's a tour guide at the Eiffel Tower or whatever, were sort of like poking to see if we liked him, which obviously we look like an ad for not liking Trump. And anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, new details about how Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos tried to cozy up to Trump. This is an interesting story.
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Scott, we're back. President Trump took frequent jabs at Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos as he tried to build ties with his administration. And that's according to a new book by New York Times reporters Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan, who I'm going to have on the podcast soon. The president told guests stories about Zuckerberg and Bezos kissing his ass, which they were, saying, 'You would not believe the texts I got from these tech guys. I got to show you.' Among them, Zuckerberg sent Trump a photo of a letter written by one of his young children, which said they were looking forward to a golden age of America, Trump's rally slogan. Bezos meanwhile reportedly told Trump that the Washington Post was one of his worst investments and that people there are really terrible. Oh my god. I mean, honestly, and then of course he was showing it to Elon too. They all made fun of them and, you know, anyway, it was kind of... I mean, by the way, on the other side they insult him behind his back too. But what has happened here from your perspective when you were reading sort of this stuff? I'm not surprised by one bit of it whatsoever. But I don't know if they'll get their reputations back. We always thought Trump was a jerk, but this is really kind of...
Yeah. But it represents a flip that is sort of represents something in my view kind of dark, and that is politicians used to kiss the ass of billionaires because billionaires had money and politicians wanted to get elected and it became kind of a pay-for-play thing because of Citizens United. But when you think about this, Bezos and Zuckerberg are worth hundreds of billions of dollars, and yet they both still feel compelled to kiss the ass of an 80-year-old real estate developer, right? Yeah. Capital always chases power, but Silicon Valley spent 20 years telling us government didn't matter. And then everyone started flying to Washington. And what this signals around the dark part is the following: if you're worth a quarter of a trillion dollars and still kissing the ass of the president, you're not... This has moved from buying influence to renting protection. This is a transition from pay-for-play democracy to something even worse. And that is a mob protection racket. Yeah. Where if I want to hold on to my wealth, I got to start paying for protection because anybody that doesn't sign up gets in his crosshairs and potentially... you all of these guys, Jamie Dimon is the only one I can tell of all these like this power crew that hasn't kissed his ass and is actually willing to occasionally say the obvious. And now the government is suing JP Morgan. So it doesn't matter how powerful you are, you got to pay the mob. And this is... what do you have? You want a democracy where money can't buy influence or can't buy too much. Then you move to a democracy, a quote-unquote democracy or a kleptocracy where money buys everything. And now we're in, in my opinion, a protection racket where Bezos and Zuckerberg got to like got to kiss the ring here. It's feeling very Russian.
They got to do... they got to... I feel like they're more powerful. Well, I don't even understand it. Like, I don't know. I mean, they could wait him out. Like, they've got so much money. They could do so much damage to him.
I do think if the Democrats take Congress and we get about 18 or 24 months out, I think you're all of a sudden going to see, as I say, these guys are going to grow testicles again. I think you're going to see a switch because I know they all tell you they can't stand him, but the smart play, I hate to say it, the smart play is just to kiss his ass, I guess.
