To take a product like this that is not broken and break it, at some point you have to wonder what it's all about. They've decided to perform open heart surgery on the healthiest person in the franchise.
Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.
The big story in media this week is 60 Minutes correspondent Scott Pelley is out at CBS. Pelley's firing came after he accused CBS News chief Bill Owens of murdering 60 Minutes, according to leaked audio from staff. Owens also told the show's new EP, Nick Bilton, a longtime tech journalist and filmmaker, someone I know, that his qualifications run 60 Minutes. It's run 60 minutes for slender. That is accurate. Sent Pelley a letter on Tuesday saying he'd been terminated for cause, effective immediately. It was a terribly written letter, Nick. It really was an embarrassment to you. Bill Owens later sent an editorial note that Pelley was fired because the foundation of trust had been broken. After his firing, though, Pelley wrote in a statement, "Incompetence and unprofessionalism in the new management have wreaked havoc." He also wrote a response to her letter and what she was saying to the staff, and then recounted word for word. He looks like he must have taken notes during the whole thing, exactly what happened, and said basically called them liars about that they didn't try to get together. I thought Pelley should not mess with this guy. He's a really good reporter, and they are. They're being disingenuous. I think menacious, actually. Uh, this is the guy, Tom, whatever his name is. All of them. They're just, they're really, they're lathering themselves in dishonor. Um, 60 Minutes has been on the air since 1968. I just, you know, you're not a media person. This is, of course, illuminating media people. One of my disappointments here is the journalism is getting lost in all of this drama. This is not, this is not, nobody's talking about the stories, which is what 60 Minutes has been astonishing about. And the fact that they could just, that he was asking normal questions. Why did you fire all these really good people, including Tanya Simon, who ran the show and took it to new heights? Why did you fire these other correspondents, Cecilia Vega and Sharon Alfonso? Why did you fire them? And they wouldn't give an answer. And I think it's very appropriate that he asked, and they were trying to act like he was, that he was throwing a tantrum. He absolutely was not. I'm sorry, he wasn't. He was being a reporter. So, your thoughts?
Yeah, I don't, so you know my view. I think media and journalists tend to think they're more precious than they are. And I don't buy the notion that journalism is, I understand the chill that the Trump administration is trying to put on different outlets. And I have heard from producers that it has created a chill, but I've said this before. I wish the Washington Post would just go away already. I'm sick of talking about it because I do think the most talented journalists, I think there's a huge ecosystem of interesting companies doing great work, and 60 Minutes, uh, I think the world would survive without it. Having said that, I just look at it through a business lens. When you're in an industry that's in structural decline and you have a product that's up 9% year-on-year, you don't [__] with it, right? And building and doing well digitally. That was disingenuous in their memos. It's doing very well digitally, actually. It's literally like, okay, Phil Jackson's job of the Chicago Bulls wasn't to be the boss and disrupt the Bulls. It was to get along with Michael Jordan. The job of CBS management right now is to get along with 60 Minutes.
I think it's a little more serious than that because I think you're leaving out the Trump thing. Each of these people have said that these particular managers are trying to [__] with the stories to try to shade them. Pelley is making this allegation. Sharon made this allegation publicly. Uh, uh, uh, Cecilia Vega made this. These are very professional people. These are the top of their game, right? It's not like whiny, right? They're not being whiny righteous. They're like, what are you doing? Like, these are, they're doing great work, and then you [__] with them, like, because, and then the excuse is, and by the way, I'm sorry. I don't know Bill Owens. I do know Nick Bilton. None. You are not qualified compared to these people. I wouldn't be qualified to run this. Right. Like, the fact that they think they can give instructions to these people. I wouldn't have the arrogance to think I was better than them. And the excuse they're using is that, um, the excuse they're using is that, well, we're going to, we're going to fix it before it goes downhill. That's their excuse. Well, it's inevitably going to go downhill, and therefore we're going to fix it. Let me tell you, I have more digital experience than both of you, and you are, you have, don't know what you're talking about because first of all, you're being disingenuous about their digital stuff, which is doing okay. And secondly, this is not the way to do it by wrecking it. This wreck it in order to save the village. We're going to bomb the village to save the village. This is nonsense on every level. And I am someone who knows more than both of them put together. And I still have room for more. And I'm a, I'm, I'm an actual journalist. Nick is a journalist. I'm still higher on the food chain than he is. I'm sorry. And one of the things is that they're not talking about the journalism. And these three people that they fired and Tanya Simon are amazing journalists, and they should thank them for their existence. And instead, because they need to shade things with the, and I do believe these reporters, they are trying to shade the news in, in, in service of Trump, and therefore they are minions to the powerful owners who own them, which are the Ellisons. And that's where the real problem is, is these people are, these people are, have a whole another game going on. And it's, it's to take a product like this that is not broken and break it is, at some point you have to wonder what it's all about. That's, they've decided to perform open heart surgery on the healthiest person in the franchise. It's just, excellent way to put it. And I, I, I don't know Nick well, but I've been on his podcast. I think he's a talented produc, a talented journalist. I don't, but in my view, I'm not sure a journalist should be running it. I think it should be a Jeff Zucker-like character who has tremendous respect for journalism, right? But quite frankly, it's just a really strong manager. I think the person that shows up to 60 Minutes says, "How can I help? Well done. Call me when you, when, how, how can I help?" But the, what the, the narrative they're putting out there is the following. You disrupt from a point of strength. Okay? As someone who teaches strategy, these people don't, they're using the wrong words. Disruptors are small companies that go after fat incumbents and start eating up from a small niche. That is absolutely true. To say that is to say that, well, CBS News, which is hemorrhaging people, should stay the course. Then what I think the word he's looking for, there's some excuse if he said it's an amazing place, we want to continue what we're doing, but we're also just, we don't ever want to be fat and happy, we want to innovate. He's using the wrong words. The last thing you do at the one place that's working is disrupt it. That's not, that's not what you do. But I want to move on. I've got an idea, and I'm, I'm literally going to text Ted Sarandos. I think there's an enormous opportunity. If I were Ted Sarandos, I'd hire all these pink people. I would call Scott Pelley and Anderson Cooper and say, "I'm going to pay each of you $10 million. You hire whoever the [__] you want, including executive producer, and Netflix is going to put out something called The Hour, and it's going to be every week." Yeah, that's our online. Yeah, I think it's a great. We are going to move on. This is the only thing I have to say is this is not how you fix. This is not what you do. And by the way, here's what I would, the advice I would give is let's see what you can do. So far, the results are bad at CBS. Everything's going down, down, down. Your shows are losing people. The other shows, by the way, ABC and NBC are gaining. So, you're doing something. Your changes are not working. Secondly, and again, I like Nick Bilton. I do. I do. I know a lot of people. He's very controversial. He gets a lot of attacks. I like Nick Bilton. He needs to show results. If you're going to do something, don't come in and tell everybody, like, give them lectures about digital disruption. Make changes, make them with respect, and have just, let's see the results. This feels so Chris Likian that, like, he kept talking more than he was doing. And so I feel like results are all that matter. Get in there, do good journalism, and then come out the other side. And otherwise, and again, I'm sorry. I'm not qualified to run this place. And these people should not be running this place. That's, I don't know what else to say.
Yeah. But to be fair, and you know these people better than I do, I think Nick, I think they poured honey on Nick and sent him hunting for...
Correct. I think they sent him for him.
They sent him into an impossible situation.
Right. Right. And I would like to hear Nick's side of this story, quite frankly, and I think he's coming on the pod. But look, the only way this person is successful is to show up and say just a few things. I will do my, I will quit the moment I, you come to me and say protect me from outside political influences that are hurting my journalism. I will, I will be your heat shield. I'm committed to that.
That's not what's happening here.
I agree. But I think he needs to say that.
And if he can't, if he can't say that, he shouldn't, he shouldn't take the job.
And two, I recognize this, this institution is more storied and more credible than my resume right now. I am a talented, thoughtful person. I'm going to do my best to provide you with the resources and the ideas, should you want them, to make this an even stronger institution. But you call me.
I get it. I still don't, I think qualifications matter and you need to hire someone who has more qualifications in this area, who's done television, who's managed big teams. That's, I'm sorry, you just, you don't just give a, like, you just don't, you just don't. And again, full of great, interesting ideas. I agree with you, but you don't give a job to someone who doesn't have the experience to run it. And I...
Okay, I'm going to, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that there have probably been people with, with lesser qualifications who've also been asked to run important media properties. This isn't about, this isn't as much about his qualifications. It's about the context and how they've gone about this. If this had been a different situation at a different time, and someone with those qualifications had come in and said, 'Look, I promise to protect you from outside political influence that gets in the way of your journalism. I realize I'm in over my head. I hope you're patient with me. I'm going to do my best to help you continue.' I think that person could be successful, distinct of their lack of qualifications.
If he was working for people who haven't been accused of meddling, you know, I mean, and, and the Ellises themselves...
But that's not him. That's a bigger issue.
Yes, but he's work, he took the job with them. So anyway, it's not Nick's fault. You're absolutely right. It's not Nick's fault.
But what you're saying is it's doomed. Anyone's doomed, and, and that might be a fair point that there's no way for anyone to be successful right now.
I think in this case it is. I think they have another, there's another game afoot here that has nothing to do with, they want to wreck this thing. That's my...
You're saying it's being, it's being turned into, and this is, this is the most damning thing several people have said who've exited the organization. It's being perverted and queered from a great journalistic operation that is arguably one of the most successful, perhaps is the most successful TV show of its kind in history. It's being used basically to become propaganda for the Trump administration.
That's correct. That's correct. I, and I, I usually go away from those things, but it feels like Edward R. Murrow, remember when he got screwed? You know what I mean? Like this is, it has that feel to it. Anyway, we'll see where it goes. But let me just tell you, Scott, and I don't know Scott. I, I don't know Cecilia, although I'm looking forward to meeting her. I think Sharon is terrific. They're all terrific journalists and I believe them. I'm sorry, I believe them, they're just really good, and all the people there, and I've talked to lots of people at...
Netflix presents The Hour.
Yeah, I love it. The Hour, The Hour, 59 minutes. Anyway, all right. Speaking of...
3600 seconds. You know, this, this idea of lack of qualifications, I'm sorry, I'm, I'm sort of obsessed with it. President Trump named Bill Pulte, who runs the Federal Housing Finance Agency, as the new acting director of national intelligence, replacing Tulsi Gabbard, who's stepping down. Pulte is best known for accusing several of Trump's enemies of mortgage fraud, none of which went anywhere, including New York AG Letitia James. He has no known experience in intelligence. I'm not sure he's intelligent. Defense or national security. He's called Little Trump. That's his qualifications. It's unclear whether Trump will ask the Senate to confirm Pulte. By law, anyone nominated for this role must have extensive national security expertise. Republicans are attacking him. You saw several Republicans saying he has no expertise. Democrats, especially like our friend Mark Warner, is losing his mind over this. This, this...
It's not the same. Nick is very confident, but this guy is incompetent. This guy is incompetent at this job. And all he does is like, you know, he's, he like steps on a rake every five minutes and hits his head. I mean, and the same thing with Todd Blanche, who Trump caved on his slush fund. Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche, who was Trump's personal attorney, says the DOJ is abandoning plans for that $1.8 billion fund to compensate people who claim they were unfairly investigated. It was a rare instance of congressional Republicans pushing back and winning. Trump is still getting carte blanche on his tax issues through this deal. I can't believe that we're giving him a free pass there. Your thoughts?
So, some context. The reason the position was created, the Director of National Intelligence, was after 9/11, policymakers concluded that there was a lack of coordination amongst our 18 intelligence agencies. So there was, there was really, there was really great intelligence pre-9/11 that something like this might happen, but the lack of coordination meant the right information didn't bubble up to the right people in time. And I don't think it's fair to call him incompetent. He's just not qualified, which is kind of the same thing. But I...
Incompetent to this task. Agreed. Agreed. So, let's just, let's just review the past directors of national intelligence, their background. So, let's start with Tulsi Gabbard, to be fair. Combat veteran, military officer, member of Congress, House Armed Services Committee. Avril Haines, Deputy CIA Director, Deputy National Security Adviser. John Ratcliffe, Congressman, House Intelligence Committee member, former federal prosecutor. Dan Coats...
Now head of the CIA, by the way. Go ahead.
Dan Coats, Senator, Ambassador to Germany, member of the Senate Intelligence Committee. James Clapper, former Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, decades of military intelligence. Dennis Blair, four-star admiral, former commander of US Pacific Command, overseeing Indo-Pacific military operations. Mike McConnell, former director of the NSA, vice admiral, career intelligence professional. John Negroponte, 40-year diplomat, Ambassador to Iraq, UN Ambassador, Director of National Intelligence, created after 9/11 reforms. And Bill Pulte, I'm going to say this, he's a rich kid. He'll build [__] homes in Fort Myers.
And he might be a nice man. He might be very competent. He might be a brilliant businessman. He's 38 and he picks out Sub-Zero for homes and retirement communities. And...
That's a big job. That's a big job, Scott.
Well, okay. No, I'm teasing. The notion that, look, this is going to put our, our, our...
servicemen and servicewomen in harm's way, danger unnecessarily and recklessly too. Do you think the Mossad or MI6 are going to continue to share information with our intelligence agencies?
They must be cheering in Russia and China right now.
And also, I think the American public is guilty of this. So I don't think the American... I think the American public has taken for granted the depth, experience and commitment of what is the best performing organization in the world, and that is the US government, and how deep the expertise is.
of people who decide to forego a lot of wealth and lifestyle to go to work for our intelligence community, our government, our diplomatic corps, our defense department. And we're putting in one of the most dangerous things that is now starting to bubble up, as we see in missteps in Iran and other places.
They're unprepared for their meetings. They're sending in Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff. Are you kidding? This is what Hillary was saying. They're running circles around us. The Iranians send in like very qualified people to these negotiations and instead we send in people that didn't have any idea they were going to close the Strait of Hormuz. Like, why would it occur to them? Since they're not... this is this lack of expertise, and it is a real thing. It's like, you know, it's like someone coming to me and saying, 'I think you need to lead the New York Knicks to victory.' It's like, no, like I have no qualifications to do so, and this kind of thing. The reason he was hired, two reasons I think, is one, he's called Little Trump. Listen, I don't think he's a nice person. I've seen him interviewed. He seems like an idiot, but besides that, he seems like a pompous ass. I think he was selected so Trump can control the whole thing. He has to put these unqualified minions into place. It's always the case with anyone who puts someone who's not qualified in place, which is they want to control the situation. And Trump himself is unqualified to run this situation too, by the way. And this is what happens. And it's very dangerous. Same thing with Todd Blanche. He was his lawyer and now he's doing his gut work for him essentially. This slush fund. Are you kidding? Like giving him, you know, carte blanche in taxes.
Terrorist immunization fund.
Correct. That's correct. Yeah. The private militia fund is what I call it.
Yeah. I never miss an opportunity to try and sound important. I've been on a bunch of public boards, and a general unwritten rule... So, think about it. The CEO answers to a board that's supposed to be a fiduciary for all shareholders. The president... everyone needs a boss. Everyone should and does answer to somebody. The president no longer answers to co-equal branches of government. Republican Congress has been neutered. You know, the Speaker of the House is basically just doing the dirty work for the president. He's not in any way giving his Republican colleagues a seat at the table here. He's trying to run roughshod over them based on what the president wants. The Supreme Court, I would argue, has been politicized. I think a series of appointments have created certain decisions that I would argue don't have a hell of a lot of fidelity to the Constitution but to conservative values or what the president wants. Not always. I do think they do hold a line on some things, but I would argue that it is no longer oversight for the president. The only people that provide any sort of checks and balance for Trump right now are voters. And the first thing you notice on a board, or one of the first things you notice with experienced board members in terms of how they evaluate a CEO, is a lot of CEOs have had to be in a closet in a knife fight for so long to get to where they are that a lot of CEOs have a tendency to shoot talented people on their team who might be the next CEO. And you end up with a talented CEO who has a really weak infrastructure of senior managers. And one of the first tests on a board to see if a CEO is a good CEO is how often is he bringing in, highlighting, and praising other senior managers. And if he or she were to get hit by a bus, if you're running a public company and there aren't two or three people that could potentially be the CEO, you are not a CEO. And you see it all the time. You see these CEOs who all of a sudden start shooting talented people who are recruited away to go be the CEO of another company because it was clear they were not. Your job as a CEO is to immediately say to the most talented people, 'I'm going to be here three, four, eight years, and if you stick around, there's a shot you're going to be CEO, and I'm going to help prepare you to be CEO of this company or somewhere else.'
It never... it's got... it always happens this way. They always sort of amass power. They don't want to be replaced. They shoot their minions in the head just so they can stay.
I've worked with some CEOs who are very good at maturing managers and recognize it's a responsibility too. I think Tim... I think Apple has five potential CEOs.
I think more common is the CEO who cannot be replaced.
But a good board, a good board makes that part of the compensation criteria.
Are you putting in place really strong succession planning here? The president... I mean, it's just insane. There is absolutely... I just love the fact that everyone's talking about Rubio or Vance. President Trump is [__] Chernobyl. If you stick around him long enough, you die of political leukemia. The notion that he gives a [__] people along.
He would rather see the Republican Party burn to the ground.
That's what I now believe, because he doesn't care. He doesn't care about...
give a [__] about the Republican Party for him to like invade. I don't know. He wants everyone to go, oh, he wants everyone to say, 'Oh, this Republican Party is nothing without Trump.' He'd rather see them go down in flames. He'd rather see AOC president than go down in flames because he wants it not to outlive him. Anyway, really interesting time, but please, people who aren't qualified, don't do jobs. Don't, don't, don't.
At least in national security, I say go for jobs you're not qualified for, unless it's the DNI.
Let me just tell you, guess what? You would do a better job as director of national security. Keep saying that as an example of how terrible the Trump administration is.
Is this after I run for mayor of Los Angeles? That's the last job.
It could be a good job. I think you'd be good at that. Anyway,
the mayor of Los Angeles has no power. It's a terrible job. It's almost impossible to govern.
Put you there because you could swan around with the rich people and you love an Oscar party.
I do like that. I do like swanning.
Can I just say, speaking of Oscar parties? So, I was at this dinner for the Tribeca Film Festival and Bette Midler was sitting two doors down, like two seats down,
and she listens to Pivot, and she's lovely, by the way. She's great.
And she leans over Bloomberg to me, and she goes, 'Let me just tell you something.' In her Bette Midler voice, and she goes, 'I don't want you to get a big head. You went to the Oscar party, Kara.' And I'm like, 'Oh, I didn't go to the Oscar party. I said that.' I said, 'Bette Midler, it was Scott that went to the Oscar party.' And she goes, 'Oh, you know,' she does that voice of her, she goes, 'Oh, I still don't want you to get a big head.' And I'm like, 'I didn't go to the Oscar party. I stayed home. I watched the Oscars with my kids.' Like, what do you... totally, I got accused of
Scott, things by that Midler.
Well, if it makes you feel any better, at about 11:30, I got anxious and I went home and raided the minibar and drank myself to sleep.
Okay. All right. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, California primary results.
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Scott, we're back with more news. Let's get into the primary races of California. What a mess this is. As we record on Wednesday, ballots for California's governor's race are still being counted, with Republican Steve Hilton and Democratic Xavier Becerra in the lead. In Los Angeles, Mayor Karen Bass holds the lead in results, but she became the first city mayor since 2005 to fail to earn the 50% of votes required to avoid a runoff. As we tape, the race for the second runoff spot is too close to call, with Spencer Pratt currently in the lead. Let's listen to a clip we got from co-founder of Run for Something, Amanda Litman, about the situation.
Hi, Kara. Hi, Scott. So, I will say it's still a little early to have some hot takes on the California election results. We'll know more at the end of the day today on Wednesday. However, a few things I am noticing. How much money does or does not matter. You know, Tom Steyer spent upwards of 200 million of his own dollars on this campaign, maybe more. Seems like unless the results come back differently and the ballots are counting now, he's not going to make it to November. Meanwhile, down in LA, Spencer Pratt, even if he doesn't make it all the way to the runoff, we'll see how these ballots come in. For Nithya, really modeled a new way of doing this. Mega-viral user-generated AI videos, breaking through with really authentic video, capitalizing on the honestly candidate-agnostic media ecosystem the right has built. We have to be prepared for this. We cannot just spend our way into victory. We have to capture attention in order to win. That means interesting candidates. That means engaging messages. That means sometimes a little bit more risk tolerance. We've got to be willing to lean in and be a little bit more unscripted. And that is something that is very, very hard for Democrats to do, but is the only way we're going to be able to capture the voters we need this fall.
