I see a large IPM on the horizon.
You're surrounded by journalists. Hold your position.
That's misinformation.
Courtney declaring order inbound.
That's just wrong.
We are surrounded by journalists. Hold your position. Come get up.
Trust the experts.
Five.
We are for founder mode.
Five.
I see multiple journalists on the horizon. Standby.
UAV online.
Blaze.
Double blaze.
Triple blaze. Double kill.
Cook is.
Team Deathmatch.
We are experts.
Triple blades.
Let's just roll. Right.
Mark clearing order inbound. Get up.
We are surrounded by journalists. Hold your position.
Break one. Strike two.
Activate golden retriever mode.
Market clearing order inbound.
Five puter.
You're watching TVN. Today's Friday, May 1st, 2026. We are just barely live from the TVP and Ultradome, the temple of technology, the fortress of finance, the capital capital. We had to rush back from Stripe Sessions. Fantastic interview with the Collison brothers, many others yesterday. Go check it out if you haven't already. Fun stuff. We didn't go nearly deep enough on the whole Coasean singularity. There's a debate on the timeline about it. We can get into it later. We need to have some more economists on the show to break it down for us. But this is their big pitch: firms get smaller in the future, the Coase theory of the firm. Anyway, if you studied economics, you might be familiar, but it's jargon and you're going to be hearing a lot more of it in the singular.
A lot of mumbo jumbo.
I'm not even going to try. Well, here's some less mumbo jumbo. Tech earnings, quadkill recap, four in one day. Last time this happened, I think it was 2020. Four big tech companies all same day. It is random. No one really knows why. It just sort of lines up. It's like a solar eclipse.
Can you use astrology to predict the next one?
Potentially. Potentially. You would have to imagine it's something around the alignment of the planets that cause.
More like the holidays. More like the holidays because books close then certain things line up. Also like Nvidia is never in the competition. They're always like two or three weeks later. But anyway, let's go through what actually happened. Google was the big winner. They absolutely crushed the stocks, up 10% in the last couple days. Really successful. And there's a few reasons. So the core business is still growing. Google search. This was the question of: is AI, are chatbots going to be eating into the core Google search revenue, the core business that drives all the other investments? The answer is unequivocally no. Google search and other revenue was 6.4 billion. Yeah. Up 19% year-over-year. I mean, two years ago there was the whole like Google search is dead thesis. That has not been borne out, at least this year. Very, very strong results there. Then Google Cloud is like the major story. So much so that Take Him, when he did his earnings recap, he didn't even talk about toplines at Google, Amazon, and Microsoft. He just says Google Cloud revenue 63% year-over-year. Amazon Web Services 28% year-over-year. Azure 40% year-over-year. And then Meta overall revenue, which we'll get into, 33% year-over-year. So he's not even looking at the rest of the business. All that matters for the three major public clouds are those cloud businesses, not even anything specific within the overall business. So long story short, higher capex at Google totally justified in a world of cloud acceleration. Backlog growth is huge. Cloud backlog nearly doubled to more than $460 billion. And importantly, this isn't like a 5-year, 10-year contract type thing. Half of that, more than half of that backlog is expected to be recognized in the next 24 months. So really good news there. Google Cloud hit 20 billion, up 63%. Now it is smaller than Amazon, and that's why AWS is, you know, people are hunting for high 20 growth rates, maybe begins with a three. In Google it's smaller so it can grow 63%, but that's still fantastic. And cloud operating income was 6.6 billion, which is very strong margin. So everything is looking good. Search durability, demand for AI infrastructure, it's the full stack AI play right now. Microsoft showed solid execution, but they didn't dramatically change any particular narrative. I think a lot of this goes to like the just naturally slow deployment of enterprise AI, but this is the focus for Microsoft. They are the enterprise AI play.
Yeah. One thing was notable is they weren't heavily teasing anything related to the next Gemini release.
Yeah, they wouldn't tease that at earnings.
No, no, they have historically. So.
Anyways, maybe they want to let the model speak for itself.
Yeah, probably announce Gemini 4, I would imagine, announced it.
Or a coding specific model.
Yeah. Yeah, something there. I mean, there's certainly demand for it. They have the capacity, there's lots of opportunity. We'll probably be following that in three weeks when Google I/O happens. So Microsoft investors wanted to see Azure growth, Copilot adoption, and a solid justification for all the capex. The stock's down 2%, nothing crazy, but Microsoft beat on headline numbers. Revenue was 82.9 billion, up 18% year-over-year. And from an analyst perspective, it was a clean beat. But there's more nuance here. So in terms of AI adoption, Microsoft added about.
Look at this beautiful LED wall.
Million. Yeah, let's get it up to the.
Still underrated. We ordered this bad boy maybe like six months ago.
Months ago. Took a while. Quite a while.
But it is fun. We need to figure out more things to do with it. So on Copilot adoption, this is the big question. So for Microsoft 365, like total seats, you know, you think about Microsoft Teams, Outlook, like the standard Microsoft enterprise seat, I think it's about $30 per user per month. Competes with Google Apps enterprise, right? But Microsoft's been doing this for much longer. They have 450 million paid seats. So in terms of Copilot, they added five million, which is great. They're at 20 million now, so that's solid adoption, but it's still small compared to the 450 paid seats. Ideally, like every seat would have a Copilot alongside of it. That, I mean, that's the idea, right? And so the question is how quickly can they get that 20 million Copilot seats up to 200 million, 400 million? You know, ideally everyone has one of these add-on subscriptions and that's lifting the overall business. Market reaction was a bit choppy as the new OpenAI relationship gets digested. And so there's two sides to the Microsoft OpenAI deal right now. Of course, OpenAI is no longer limited to selling just through Azure. Azure no longer has exclusive access to OpenAI models. OpenAI is now available on AWS as well. And it cuts both ways. So on one hand, Microsoft, you know, they used to be the exclusive provider. If you're a sales guy at Microsoft on Azure, you're probably really excited to call somebody up and say, 'Hey, you want to use GPT 5.5? We're the only place in town. Like, you should come over here. You should migrate more of your infrastructure. You should be using Azure.' But it was probably frustrating because a lot of people say, 'No, we're locked into AWS. We are stuck in that cloud and we'd love to, but we'll just use the API directly or we'll figure out some other workaround, but we're not moving for this.'
Yeah. Or people could be like, 'Yeah, we're open to trying it, but it'll take, you know, a couple quarters realistically to get ramped up.'
Yeah. And so from an Azure perspective, losing exclusivity is a negative, but from a business perspective, the more growth for OpenAI is good for Microsoft's equity stake in the company. And so these two tensions, like the capital balance sheet side of the business versus the Azure sales and acceleration side of the business, like these two are Copilot versus Codex.
Sure. Yeah. And so these two sides of the business are sort of butting up against each other and Satya Nadella ultimately has to go and renegotiate the contract. And they did, and it seems like they're in a good place because a lot of people were sort of saying like, oh well, is this going to get messy? Is there going to be some lawsuit here? It seems like there was a very clean renegotiation and OpenAI got rid of the AGI clause that allows them to stop sharing models, but they are sharing revenue and like the overall deal.
Yeah. Basically the, I think 2032 end date.
Yeah. Is just.
The IP share instead of this like arbitrary.
Yep.
AGI.
So over at Amazon, Amazon still of course the capex king. They topped the capex forecast. But as scary as that would be, AWS is reaccelerating and so that's very good news. So the stock moved slightly upwards. Q1 2026 sales for Amazon overall were 181.5 billion for the quarter. For the quarter, they're on track to make a trillion in revenue soon. Up 17% year-over-year, beating expectations. AWS is expected to see 25% growth. That was the expectation, 25%, that's sort of where they've been. They came in at 28%. So they beat on AWS growth and that's really, really important especially for their scale. This was very good news. The ads business is still cooking, churned out 17.2 billion in revenue and the chips business just crossed 20 billion run rate which is very, very good and they have big deals. AWS is in this interesting position, less of this like Google pure play full stack and more focused on working with both OpenAI and Anthropic at this point. And so that all justifies more investments in Tranium and AI infrastructure broadly and the market seems to like it. Huge capex numbers but reasonable response from the market and the stock. So Meta, Meta had a rough go, huge drop nearly 10% down following earnings. It's sort of jumping up and down now but the core business was extremely strong. So Q1 revenue was 56.3 billion up 33% year-over-year. So high growth for the overall business. Ad impressions rose 19%, average price per ad rose 12%. They raised the capex outlook from this, they have this range. It's within $10 billion of 125. They added 10 billion to both. So instead of saying, hey, we'll be between 115 and 135. Now they're saying we're going to be between 125 and 145. Now will they actually get more compute for that or is that just a reflection of rising prices for all the inputs that go into compute spending? That's a big debate because there's one bull case where oh they're optimistic they're going to buy more compute but it's like no there's a possibility that they're just spending more to get the same amount of compute as they thought. But the big problem for shareholders, the big answer is it's not as clean of a.
Can you imagine? Just take one second and imagine that Meta is a private company and their pitch is that we make AI agents for.
Selling products.
And they're doing $200 billion. They're at a $200 billion run rate growing 33% a year.
Yeah.
How is it priced?
20 trillion.
Probably.
Probably.
With those operating margins. I'm joking. It truly is one of the most incredible businesses of all time. But.
They don't have, but people, yeah, yeah. They don't have the cloud thing. People are, he's kind of acting like the most AGI pill CEO, like hyperscaler CEO, right?
Yeah.
Um.
He was talking about, like basically talking about like RSI on the earnings call. He's like it's not just about like cod, you know, coding. Like he really seemingly believes and he doesn't want to be in a position where.
Someone else has actual super intelligence and he does not.
Yeah. And so.
And that's just like a little bit too fuzzy because when you look in the rest of the market right now, it's like productivity tools. Yeah. Right.
And so the market just like can't really read into it. Yeah.
And they're just kind of like not even giving him full credit for the business that he has.
Yeah. And I forget if he's ever mentioned the idea of selling tokens, selling AI infrastructure, getting in the cloud market, but it's way easier for an AWS.
He kind of loosely mentioned that last year.
When he was like starting to ramp stuff up, like basically saying like maybe we could do this at some point.
Yeah. Because it's way easier to justify the capex at Amazon when you say oh well like you know if you know regardless of how this market plays out maybe Anthropic takes some of the compute maybe OpenAI takes the compute maybe there's a whole bunch of new AI labs that take compute maybe we'll use it for our services our own models if models commoditize it's still valuable if they don't it's still valuable there's a whole bunch of different ways to shift that capex around and justify it. Meta, it's got to show up in the AI figures. It's got to show up in the ad business at least right now. And so there are questions about how the big capex spend feeds back into cash flow when the company doesn't have a platform with big enterprise AI contracts, massive RPO figures. There's not an easy place to just like stuff compute necessarily and at least get you know a market standard like return on investment. Of course they could spin up reselling. They could become a neo cloud or something like that, but at their scale it's a whole new host of challenges if they go that direction. And I think that's not the plan. I think you're dialing into it that they are in fact recursive self-improvement pled at this point. And so the other sort of tremor in the system was the fact that daily active people, which is something that they were, it's not users anymore. It's DAP, daily active people, declined sequentially since the first time that Meta began reporting the metric. So less people were using Meta platforms this quarter than previously. But they had some good explanations for it. They said that there were internet disruptions in Iran and WhatsApp restrictions in Russia. And so this was not representative of a real change in internet user behavior. And I think we all recognize that that is reality in the sense that there's not some up-and-coming social network that's eating Meta platforms family of apps lunch, right? Like the TikTok threat came and sort of went. The Snapchat threat came and sort of went.
Sora.
Sora came and went, right? And so there was a different post I saw that social media use is declining especially among young people but it was already so high it's not really showing up.
Truly, it will truly be insane if we get this new alien technology. We get LLMs which in digital form can convince you that they are a person.
Yeah. And we would and we end up getting no new big social platforms like.
That just strengthen the current ones.
Well, yeah. Yeah. No, I mean I think that's the base case right now, but it's still wild. I think you would expect, I think again if you rewound to like 2020 and you said, 'Hey, we're going to have this technology where you can effectively have a digital twin of yourself.' You would think that somebody would figure out some new.
Yeah, maybe.
I continue to think it just strengthens the incumbent's roadblocks. Instagram, WhatsApp, Facebook, like these platforms will just get more content on them that will probably be LLM generated, LLM enhanced. Even if it's not LLM written or developed, it's a creator taking less time doing other boring things and spending more time on their core output. So we'll keep tracking it. So overall, what did we learn this earnings season? One possible takeaway is that there's a little bit of a fracturing in the overall AI narrative. So the AI narrative over the last 12 months has basically been like say the biggest number, biggest capex number, biggest deals, just grow grow. Now every hyperscaler reports a big capex number, but each company does have a different story. So Google's the full stack platform. Microsoft's focused on enterprise adoption and distribution. Amazon's most aggressive on infrastructure and partnerships with OpenAI and Anthropic. They have the cleanest, less, it's a less competitive relationship with Anthropic and OpenAI because they don't have the DeepMind equivalent necessarily. Meta is all about ad optimization. And Meta is also this interesting like high-risk option on Frontier AI. Like it's possible that if TBD Labs, MSL, if that pays off, you wind up getting an OpenAI sized or Anthropic sized business out of it in the oligopoly world where they have a breakthrough. They get to something that's 55 or 47 level and then they're competing at an equal level and they're playing in that oligopoly. And so you like the Meta traders are sort of or the investors are sort of weighing both of those sides. You have a very solid ads business and then you have this call option on potential frontier AI which is still early but showing some really solid signs. So the market likes short-term revenue evidence right now and there's still many strategies that will play out over the rest of the year but this quarter was focused on can you justify your capex this quarter and so we'll keep following it. Let's go over the timeline and see what people were saying. The headline numbers of course were huge cloud growth. AWS 28%, GCP 63%, Azure at 40%. Absolutely massive numbers. Remember people were hoping for GCP to be at 40% and it went up 63%. Absolutely massive. AWS people are hoping for 30, they got 28. Not too bad. Take Him, we mentioned you can go subscribe to his Substack at takehim.substack.com. He has a write up on the state of AI after Google, Meta, Amazon, and Microsoft earnings. And.
Take Him been right a lot lately.
Been doing well. And there's some people reflecting on, you know, crazy run-ups, crazy numbers, crazy hype. Is this the dot bubble? Always fun to go back and comp to previous bubbles. The dot-com one is still fresh for a lot of people because some people in tech were alive during it. Many people in tech were alive during it. But this poster Ren is comparing the price to earnings multiples today versus the dot boom. So today's MAG 4 PE ratios, the companies that reported earnings. Meta's at 16x price to earnings, Google's at 17x, Amazon's at 24, and Microsoft's at 25 price to earnings ratio. Compare that to during the dot. Microsoft was at 73x. Cisco was at 200x plus. Yahoo was trading at 800x earnings. The NASDAQ as a whole traded at 200 times earnings during the peak of the dot-com bubble. Today's bubble is trading at 16 to 25x earnings on companies generating hundreds of billions of dollars of real cash flow. Now they're drawing down on that cash flow. But even in some bizarre world where, you know, AI is a bubble and it's fake and we all go back to pencil and paper, we'll probably go back to digital advertising and spreadsheets in the cloud and, you know, SaaS and all of these companies will still benefit and be in fantastic position.
Yeah, the only thing that's, you know, or one thing that's imperfect with these comparisons is when you look at like the peak you can say like okay Meta, Google, Amazon and Microsoft have relatively reasonable PE ratios. Yeah. But if you look at the rest of, you look at all the companies that have been started in the last like five years especially in the private markets that have been marked up from you know 20 to 100 to 500 to a billion and beyond many of them have absolutely no earnings.
Yeah.
And so you have to look at like maybe something more like a Yahoo as like a decent comp, right? Where Yahoo was trading at peak at 800x. Yeah.
And so there is some pushback in the replies here. Reasonous for says AMD is at 130, Tesla's at 350, Palantir's at 220, and Intel is at 900 times earnings.
I know. So, it's like very, very convenient to just.
Take the four of the greatest companies ever in the history of the world and say like there's no bubble like they're reasonably priced. Yeah, I think it is useful to go back to the fact that there's a lot of hype in tech, but what's driving the vast majority of the market cap right now is still fairly low PE companies. Like Intel is so much smaller on a market cap basis than Microsoft, Amazon, Google, Meta that even if you're overpaying on earnings for that, you like the overall market is anchored to a pretty decent earnings engine still. And that's like the bull case here. What else is going on? I'm.
George Hotz is back with a white pill.
What do you say?
May 1st. He says AI will create jobs. Says, 'It's nice to see Jensen talk about this and it's super obvious when you think about it. AI and immigration are fundamentally the same. There's new people showing up and hopefully everyone understands how and why immigration creates jobs. Wants are effectively unlimited. It's classic Jevons paradox that if we make something more efficient, we end up using more of it. Or a cool aphorism I learned at Facebook, if you make the site 10% faster, people spend 5% more total time on it.'
It's funny, he worked at Facebook for, he was like an intern.
He's part of the machine. Now, just like you get the waw wa crying people about how immigration lowers wages for native born Americans, and we got to keep the hardworking immigrants out because you have some right to be lazy or something, you'll get this about AI. AI will outcompete some humans at some jobs, but protectionism is for losers. The important thing is that the overall pie grows and inequality stays somewhat in check, not by redistribution, but by design. There will be more to do than ever before.
More to do than ever before.
Can we pull up this video of Jensen?
Yeah, let's do it. And I.
In the production chat for you.
Yo, you have it?
Yeah, we can play it.
Great. I'm excited for Eric Seford's deep dive here. We'll get into that later.
The souvenir.
And reminder, we have the Isaacator coming on in just seven minutes. Mike Isaac has been covering the Elon Musk versus trial. Is it like a 4-day work week with trials?
It is.
Are they living in the future?
It is. Wait, wait, wait. So can we pull up this screenshot because did you read Mike Isaac's full thread on his experience covering the trial? Did you read the whole thing? Because he's been live tweeting it. And it's very funny because he will post. So, we got to zoom in here. This is a.
Did you turn this into.
I turned it into an infographic. So this is a minute-by-minute chronological log of off-topic slash personal minor inconvenience moments because Mike Isaac will talk about, oh, Elon Musk just said this on the stage, oh, the lawyer fired back with this, the jury said this, the judge said that, right? But then in between that, he has been logging very, very minor inconveniences that he's experienced. So he talks about his lunch, the roasted tomato and corn pizza. He says he forgot a pillow for his bird to sit on.
He said.
Corn be.
I don't know. He said he bought.
That's a very Oakland thing.
At 600745. This is transcribed from EXO. I think the times are UTC or something. He brought a water bottle but forgot to fill it in the rush for a seat. Now he's increasingly thirsty during an intense moment of testimony. Someone's laptop suddenly blasted a loud YouTube video in the gallery. This is a garden hose nozzle. It said courtroom mishap. So he's going through it all. It's very fun to track his and we'll dig into his experience both in the court and actually with what's going on with the case. But let's play this Jensen clip. This sounds fun. Jensen is insisting that jobs will be created in the future. Let's see it. What does he have to say?
There's the things that are said are very counterproductive and in fact hurtful. I on the one hand maybe a scientist thinks that by warning people that AI is going to completely permeate and proliferate across radiology and therefore radiologists are going to get wiped out. On the one hand that might be considered warning and therefore helpful but in fact the counter would have been hurtful if we convinced everybody not to be radiologists and we now need radiologists. That actually is hurtful to society. It is hurtful if we convinced all the young college graduates to not be software engineers and it turns out United States need more software engineers than ever. That's hurtful. And so we have to be mindful of how we communicate the importance of this technology and what it's able to do to advocate for policy and advocate for guard rails on the one hand. On the other hand, scaring people with things like saying nonsensical things which are not going to happen that this is an existential threat to humanity. There's 20% chance that is existential. That's ridiculous. That it's going to wipe out 50% of new college grad jobs. That it's going to completely destroy democracy. I mean, these kind of comments are not helpful. They're not based, they're made by.
He's subtweeting in real life. He's not vague posting. He's subtweeting. I do think the 50% numbers are so funny because it's like 50/50 is like the most neutral you can be about some prediction. It feels like, I mean I get that it's not, in that case it's like 50% of jobs but whenever you issue like a 50/50 proclamation it sort of tells you nothing. Like we were looking at like the prediction markets on the trial and we were like oh it's 50/50. Okay so that actually doesn't give me any information about what's going to happen in the future. And it's very easy to make a prediction that's like, oh, I predict this will happen 50/50. And then if it doesn't happen, you can be like, well, yeah, 50% chance it wasn't going to happen. Like, I had it really high that it wasn't going to happen. And then you can also say, you know, I predicted it.
Yeah, it is truly universal when we talk to these companies that are building AI products or selling AI products.
Um.
It seems like the ambition level in every single industry is just going up. Even Gabe from Rogo was saying, 'Yeah, there's an opportunity to cut costs or there's an opportunity to get aggressive and like take market share.' Yep.
And he said like a lot of firms are saying like, 'Let's just do more work. Let's grow our revenue. Let's take on more clients, right?'
And so.
It is, it's harder and harder to doom about the job market.
Yeah.
Do you need to doom about the task market.
If you're, it's over for tasks are getting automated. No, it's serious. Like there are tasks that like the reading of the X-ray or whatever it was the radiologist scan. What do they actually read? Is that an X-ray that they're looking for tumors in? You know what I'm talking about, right? The famous Hinton.
Yeah. I don't know if it's technically an X-ray.
It's not. Right. It's a CAT scan.
It's some scan where you can look.
Yeah. They do a scan. And of course, image generation and image models are very good at detecting cancers. But that is just one of several tasks, many tasks that a radiologist does throughout the day. And so radiologists are currently making more money than ever. And they are in more demand than ever. And I was telling you before the show about truck drivers. They don't just drive the truck. There was a survey that said 70% of them carry weapons because they are effectively they are security guards for the truck and as well as probably a bunch of other things that you don't think about, light repairs on the truck. You know, stopping for different things, rearranging things in the back, making sure the load is like balanced and what driving.
You're driving with kids in the car and you drive by a big truck on a road trip. You can go like this and then.
That's another thing that they could never, a computer could never look out the windows seeing some kids in the car and honk.
But well, yeah, I mean we'll see. Anyway, we have Mike Isaac in the waiting room. Let's bring him into the TV Ultra Dome.
He's at the New York Times. Mike, how you doing?
Wait. So, what's up? Yeah. So, so 4-day work week.
Are they living in the future?
Yeah. Is this Universal Basic vacation days?
It's court is incredible in that I got to sleep in till like 9:00 a.m. today, which was great. But I made up for it because like literally every day this week I've gotten up at 5:00 in the morning to get my cold ass down to the Oakland courthouse and stand outside for two hours. So, I don't know. But it's fun. It's.
How does it work? Who gets priority? Is it first come, first serve? Like if some random person shows up before you, they can just get it and then you're just out or do you get to like show some sort of like press, like how does it work?
Yeah. I wish I was cool enough to like cut. Well, here's the thing.
You should get an artist pass.
No, not VIP. Artist pass is a level above.
Okay. Artist pass. So there are 20 reserve seats in the front row for press but the issue is only one person per outlet gets it and we are doing like live blogging for like the big moments like opening statements and for Elon and so myself and my colleague Cade came on the whole first week and so we've had a trade-off. He's gotten the like press skip the line thing and I've been with the other folks in the 30 unreserved seats in the back and.
That are watching YouTube videos.
Yeah. Yeah. Oh my god. Or literally.
Literally one dude fell asleep. I was actually impressed.
It seemed pretty entertaining. You didn't seem like you were falling asleep. I was keeping up on the through the live blog.
Be reading my nightmarish Twitter, too. It's been fun, honestly. Have you guys ever done like court case things or have you ever been sued or been in court?
I went to mock court in high school where everyone picks a role. I think I was weared in court.
Literally laring in high school, but other than that, I never.
The whole this whole time it seems insane.
Like with the recent NASA the moon mission. I was like, 'This should be a live stream plus a pay-per-view for the key moments for this trial.' It's like, 'We have huge budget deficits and we have these incredible media products. Why are we not doing pay-per-views?' Right?
Um.
But that's the funny thing. Oh, I was just going to say that's the funny thing about like federal courthouse stuff. Like there's a lot of different rules around filming and electronics. I covered some cases in DC and I can't even bring a laptop or phone in those courthouses. So like this is actually a very permissive judge just because she believes in like press access and stuff and we've had there's way more access than you would normally get in federal court cases.
Okay. So you've been to these court cases before, but if I follow your Twitter, it feels like you're making a bunch of rookie mistakes. You only had egg bites at 5:30 a.m. Your bite energy is wearing off. You forgot your butt pillow. You forgot to fill your water bottle. Like, is this amateur hour or are you professional? What's going on?
I think you guys might know me well enough that that is kind of how I operate most of my life. Like kind of chaotic, but it is.
Focus on the important stuff.
That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, I can file. I may be like bleeding and hungry like limping across the finish line, but we're getting I'm tweeting for you.
What are some like high-profile cases that stand out that you've covered in the past?
So I got to do, let's see, my first one was insanely boring but important. The Apple versus Samsung thing back in the day and like them suing for Samsung copying like literally everything they do. I did Dallas actually Zuckerberg's like I think maybe one of his first testimonies on the stand when ZeniMax was suing Meta for the Oculus acquisition. Remember that?
That was in Dallas. That was super fun.
That I almost got kicked out of the courtroom for tweeting.
And then I did the DC FTC Meta one and I almost got kicked out of the courtroom again. Actually, I did get kicked out of the courtroom for wearing the Meta Ray-Ban glasses. These are not it. But I wore the Meta Ray and then they started put I was super stupid for doing it. But then they started putting signs up saying do not wear these glasses in.
Court. But you weren't you were just using them as glasses or you were being sneaky and you were recording?
No, I was like, 'Look, I can't record. I won't record.' I was trying to play by the rules and like they were they are my prescription glasses. Yeah, but the bailiff.
'It's too much. It's too high risk for them.
Because you could have like turned off the light or whatever, something like that.'
Talk about the fans. Are there really Elon Musk fans in the courtroom? Like what motivates someone to go and watch that live? Is this their UFC front row ticket? Like why are they there?
So you guys would have fun. Like it actually is a lot of court cases are boring to people who don't care about this stuff, right? Like you and I may be super into like the FTC trial was super fun for me because it's like oh my god Mark Zuckerberg emailing Cheryl Sandberg and talking about Path like this is incredible and like the average person has no idea what we're talking about but this is like a circus. There are people who genuinely love Elon or are genuinely worried about the end of the world happening.
And I think it's a really good thing that there's public access to these courts. Like I think like the average person can come in and show up and that's what I think after the buzz of Twitter and like people seeing that this is a event we got much longer lines and like folks who are local like just like I know a PM in tech from Meta that came. I know like a guy from Box made it in just if you get a seat.
If you get there early enough then you can get a seat and you can just hang out. It's like and I think it's really great. I think it's great that people are there for it, you know? Shouldn't just be me.
What about the jury? Does the jury seem excited and honored to have the opportunity to be a part of a case like this or are they nodding off? It'd be so funny to be like so out of just like off the internet like you can't be super bad. You're probably not a ps like Sam. This guy Sam and Greg and this guy who makes cars and I don't even know what they're talking. A whole bunch of mumbo jumbo. Like there's got to be one person on the jury that was just so not tapped in that they're just confused.
Yeah.
I think jury selection was super interesting for that. I can't say it's actually interesting. I can't say too much about the jury right now because like there's all these rules about.
Oh, sure. Like some random person could go up to them if you identify them or try to alter it.
Totally. But I will say like during jury selection on Monday, it is an incredible slice of life and you get like how familiar or unfamiliar people are with the tech industry despite being here, you know, like some folks are like, I have no talk. I no idea what you're talking about. I don't know what AI is. I don't know what AGI stands for. So it really it really play and voadier and jury selection is so important for cases like this just it makes the dynamic of the facts don't necessarily always matter but the vibe can really matter which I think is a benefit for Elon honestly.
Yeah. Were they trying to weed out people that are a little bit too excited about the case, right? You want the people that are like in order to have but then talk.
I didn't understand why why is the.
Jury just like giving like an advisory decision? What is the history of like why do you why do you have a jury when the judge is ultimately going to make the final call? It feels like just kind of putting on like a show because like theoretically the judge could just sit through a bunch of depositions and make a call.
Sure. No, I think so. I do think they want more often than not want a jury of these CEOs and companies' peers to be the deciding factor in what they feel like is good for a civil claim. Like that I think is fairly standard. But to your point, the judge can throw out their verdict, which is like is and judges I don't think tend to want to do that because like they want to have reliance on this is the public, the public should have a say in what goes or whatever. But the judge can do that. I will say also she is responsible for if they are if Elon or sorry if OpenAI is found liable, judge decides on remedies, damages and things like that. So she still has an active role in that regard and in steering the case. But I really do think that full courts often prefer or often appreciate a peer a jury of your peers making some of these decisions. So I don't think it's going to be like completely disregarded is what I would say.
Yeah. How has Judge Rogers done so far in your view? Just reading reading the live blog, she seemingly has like zingers and like pretty pretty like good like one-liners. The time I'm just like kind of imagining what it's like in there because obviously I'm just reading text, but she's had like seemingly like some pretty good comedic timing.
Yeah. Oh my god, she's so funny. She's like real. Like, as you might imagine, there's like a number of different types of judges and how they handle their court or whatever. And she just takes no BS from anyone, including the lawyers. And like when they try to like tap dance or break the rules or whatever, she's like, 'No, shut up.' Or like get back on track. Or no, no, no. Actually, the best part or the most insane part. So, one woman in the overflow room who was just a not just, it was a civilian going to attend and watch it, started recording, which is again against the rules if not the law in a federal courthouse. So, the judge brings her in and in front of a room of like a hundred people just like dresses her down, yells at her saying, 'Did did you not see any of these signs? What are you doing? I will kick you out. I will.' It was like I would have like peed my pants and started crying if she had done that to me. It was deeply deeply intense.
It's it's teacher, you know, berating a student. Yeah. Class is in session. Class is in session here. It was brutal. How how do how have you been processing Elon's positioning? It feels like the two the two stories that I've heard him sort of telling are one about his commitment to technology, humanity, saving the world through you know Tesla and the electrification of the internal combustion engine and SpaceX making you know humanity multiplanetary. And then and that's like a very high-level you know high concept pitch. And then he also sort of brings it down and starts beating this drum on like you can't steal a charity. You can't steal a charity. Is that the correct framing that he's trying to go like high and low there? How much have he's been beating each of these drums and how useful is that?
Totally. So I totally agree that's the framing and I think this really goes to the point of a lot of these trials are pageantry is the wrong word but let's say theater in that you are this is a jury trial and it's a different thing than just convincing a judge who I would say is much more attuned to the facts and merit of the case and like hammering in on the evidence and like something that may be boring to you or me or whatever or the jury is going to be more important to a judge. Elon, I think from day one, has leaned into the persona of Elon and just from him being on the stand and saying, 'I care about humanity.' I mean, he he says he does whatever he does or doesn't, but like just leaning into this like I'm a world-changing entrepreneur and this stuff is existential and I'm the one who has cared about it and like that may work on a jury, you know, like there are people who still love him and you know, OpenAI is really hammering the facts of what they feel are are their side of the case and saying Elon has known about Elon has never been in the dark. He quit in a huff. He he's made it very clear he hasn't been there. He's trying to sue now or he's trying to file this claim now because he's catching up because he's behind as an xAI competitor. But like again, this is all stuff that maybe it doesn't play. Like this is why jury trials are so risky for companies a lot of the time. You know, it's really it's fun for me. It's probably not fun for for everyone in there, but it's fun to see it play out if that makes sense.
How did the distillation comments come up? That was like that was the news of the day yesterday. You guys obviously returned. You broke you you you broke it, right?
I think I did. Yeah. I think it was one of those things where I was like, 'Holy [__] this is news.' And I think like Boltz like started figuring it out, but I was like got to put it on Twitter. And so the point so Bill Sabat is lead counsel for OpenAI. He was sort of talking about the the point was made in the context of they want to hammer home Elon is creating a competitive product and also he keeps stressing that this is doom world-ending technology but at the same time he's he's he's ripping off the toss and using the technology to improve his own technology in an explicitly for-profit company. Yeah. And so the the point is like hammering him as a hypocrite. And I think look like I think Elon has history in his businesses. It would not be controversial to say to to like say one thing and do the other. And I think he sees it as like rules of engagement. That's the game in the you know holds capitalism land. But like that is how it came up and that they didn't go super deep into it. But they wanted to make the point he's using OpenAI's tech. He's breaking the toss and he's partly distilling it. And I want to say also that Elon went out of his way to say everyone kind of does this. It's like an open secret in the industry, which I think is like also kind of true, but that doesn't make it there's like it's it's fraught, I guess, is what I would say.
Yeah. Yeah. It's a there's obviously a continuum there, which is why he tried to hammer that it was like partly I imagine most car companies have taken a rival car for a spin. Have they taken the car apart? You know, there's a line there and there are laws, but that's a separate issue, of course. Has um has anything come up with a jury around prediction markets? Because I was thinking we've now seen insider trading across every possible prediction market, right? From uh you know, I'm sure from you know, even even the Maduro thing was was was interesting because a lot of people were like, 'Oh, he's just betting on himself.' But then I saw that I was like, hey, that's sending a signal to the entire world that an attack could be happening which puts your entire team at risk, right? So like very very clearly like US military personnel should not be able to trade against our own military's actions ever, right? And that they need to come down really hard on that. Are you just trading on this? Are you just trading on this crazy? Are you are you going to retire off this? But the reason the reason that the jury thing is is is bad is it creates a potentially an incentive for the jury to basically work together and say like, 'Hey, like we all have to be here for like a month.' Like we could at least make some money on it and then you only need to get like four You only need to get like four or five of these people. The chat is saying monetize jury duty. Oh my god. No, but but but like it seems like very important that this does not happen, right? Because because there's very like they they tried to select a jury that just doesn't care about the AI race. They don't care about this or that. And and but if they are self-interested in some capacity, they could be like, well, my my decision is not is not even really legally binding. It's just advisory. Like I may as well, you know, I don't know. Right.
No. I I think that's a great point and like something that I imagine like court systems aren't even prepared for fully yet because like well there hasn't been a big there hasn't been a big trial like there's been I'm sure some like epic Apple stuff that was slightly big but but nothing where nothing anything at this scale with this much even just this much volume already from people that are generally interested in in in the story. Yeah. The outcome. And like I think the other thing you should know is like they're not sequestered. Like they show up kind of like before like anyone else right before they Yeah. Like they literally like we see them walking in and that the marshals there's like a ton of like US marshals there. They're like is anyone a juror in this line? The juror gets to go in. So like and at the end of every day the judge is like goes back over the rules saying do not discuss this case with anyone. Do not watch it on TV. Do not look at it on your phone. Which is like a verbal command. Yeah. Don't go on your phone. Just don't. Exactly.
Hey, don't use the most addictive thing that has ever been created in human history. Don't use a thing that you use for 6 hours a day that you probably turn your lights on and adjust your thermostat.
Totally. I mean, it's that's a it's something I had not thought of, Jordy, but it's a really good like when does that come up at some point, you know, like that's very worried. Not just, but just ever. Yeah, it seem it seems like something that um that that uh the court should be paying attention to heading into a a a decision from from the jury. Yeah.
How much is the history between uh OpenAI's counsel Bill uh who represented he represented Twitter when Elon was trying to get out of the the the the Twitter buyout. Uh, and ultimately it feels like the X/Twitter acquisition has worked out pretty well for Elon. He's made a number a number of plays. So, hard to hard to imagine him like, you know, deeply regretting buying it. Even though at the time he was happy to get out until Bill said, 'No, we're we're doing this.'
I you know what's funny? Um he is I I can't underscore enough how different the tenor change. I mean, look, it's like it's opposing counsel, so it's always going to be different. But Elon went from like I am a entrepreneur sort of like rosy explaining to you what I think the future should look like and like very concerned for the future of the human race to like openly antagonistic to Savit's questioning and like and the the thing that I'm very curious how this plays with the jury is like Elon was very he's like I'm a literal guy. Like the questions you're asking me are like too complicated or like they're not yes or no questions which is like fair like as a grievance but also the thing he either doesn't understand or doesn't care about understanding is that that's just lawyers like that's the whole point of a cross-examination is to ask these questions as as reductively as possible to to get a type of answer they're looking for and his job or his uh you know pre-trial sort of discussions with his own lawyers is to know how to navigate those essentially while also telling the the truth. So I don't know they just don't like each other or at least Elon doesn't like Savit and you can very it's very clear that he's just like mad at that. And whenever Elon gets sassy I would hear like clearly people who are fans of of Musk like laughing behind me are being like yeah you got him like it's just it's very it's very funny. It's like kind of a It's different than the usual vibe is what I'd say.
That's very interesting. Outlook. What's going on Monday? What's the outlook? It feels like this week was the Elon side for the most part. Are we going to flip to uh Sam and Greg and and some other OpenAI folks or is there a an intermediate step? Like do do you have a clear view of what the next couple weeks look like?
Yeah. So, it's a little rough because we we have witness lists in full that they presented and are in evidence, but they you don't really learn who's coming until like very soon that week. It's actually a giant pain in the ass for me and for reporters who are trying to schedule. But like, so we Jared Burchaw, who's like Musk family office guy, just finished testifying. Uh we're going to get uh this guy Steuart Russell us. No, sorry. That was yesterday. That was yesterday.
And And you said Burchaw was very dry. Like was that intentional? That feels like that does not work in favor of like swinging a jury. Was that more for the judge? Like what was the goal of that uh of that uh testimony?
I think it was to really just sort of show how Musk was trying to set up this like like structure things as a non-profit and like hammer home like he's always wanted it to be a nonprofit and he's not sort of like so it was it was uh I believe it was Musk's witness who OpenAI then cross-examined and OpenAI used the occasion to show an email that had like a proposed equity structure for Musk. And so like they both kind of used him differently, but I think like Burchaw is like a essentially an accountant books guy like behind the scenes. So I think it was like here's a peek behind the curtain. Here's how they were dealing with the finances. Here's how uh Musk was like this is only a charity. And then uh OpenAI's lawyers were like actually check this [__] out. So I but I think like I don't I honestly don't know. They also struck some of his testimony because this is a little complicated but if you remember last year OpenAI or um Musk made a bid with Ari Emanuel and some other companies buy the whole company and that uh open the door or that sort of um complicates uh things for Musk's side because there might be uh some of those discussions around that bid admitted into evidence and that may not be good for Musk. Because if there's like weird compromising emails in there. So like it's gotten complicated. But next week we're getting Stuart Russell, safety researcher. We got Greg Brockman, maybe Sam Altman, maybe not. It's four days a week in court only. So we may not have time, but I got to be ready. I'll be there most of the time, but I'll be there for Sam for sure. And then I don't know.
All right, rewinding a second. Did Did they bid Did they bid on the PBC like the the for-profit arm?
Yeah, that was it was the Yeah. And they they wanted to just sort of I I don't actually know what their plans were afterwards, but like it was like trying to take over the asset those assets basically and then uh you know morph it into what they I mean and they knew that it wasn't going to get accepted as a bid basically but it was like uh and then Burchaw sorry Burchaw in court was saying this was us trying to sort of establish a pricing uh mechanism to like value the actual entity itself and that was going to help them somehow. I actually am not quite sure how that would help them somehow, but uh someone in the chat is probably smarter than me. I'm not. But like it was them trying to sort of take that over. And I think OpenAI said publicly at the time, this is like a stalling tactic. They're trying to like slow us down while also using this in court in this concurrent lawsuit later basically. So, it's all like really messy and I think even Musk's side took a risk there if those emails get into discovery, but it's unclear to me if that's going to happen. If we if they are, then we may see them next week.
Do you why would why would that that kind of discovery process around that bid be coming up now when everyone involved was well aware that it had happened quite a long time ago.
So I think because of a line of questioning with Burchaw yesterday about the bid that like if that happens on the stand and again like a lawyer gut checked me here because I'm a stupid tech reporter but if that happens on the stand then it gives an entry point for OpenAI's lawyers to be like okay well we need to you know now admit basically the judge said to Musk's side you open this line of questioning now it's fair game to go into this And then you can start calling new evidence in around that like to open up discovery. It's like really like strategy and like you have to be careful in your strategy when you're asking certain questions in court. I've been learning a lot about it. So maybe it's a strategic misstep by Toborov Elon's lawyer, but it's not quite clear yet.
Do you have a idea of the purpose of the AI safety researchers testifying what the goal is there? Or like does that align with one particular side? Like if there's more nonprofits like you still probably wind up with Anthropic, DeepMind, xAI, like it like having one like you know more focused nonprofit going on for a long time doesn't necessarily lead me to like oh then we wouldn't be in an AI race like it's not a clear solve for me but I imagine that that so one side is trying to position this as important but do you have any predictions for what that goal is?
Totally. So this is Musk's witness and your point is well made which is like okay if even if your kneecap won like good luck on literally everyone else and like there's been a lot of time spent Elon talking smack about Larry Page and how he like doesn't trust him anymore. That's actually been really fun to hear. Um but uh the the point I believe is this is actually a point of contention. So the judge does not the judge prohibited like going too far into like doomerism into the world stuff and she's like look that's kind of a sideshow distraction like extinction humanity stuff is not the point of this case but Musk's side called this guy because they want someone and this my my understanding is that Stuart is like very aligned with the idea that AI is super dangerous and going to harm us all. And so if you get this guy in there make that point. How does that not like if this guy's going to come on and say that AI like the most insane like doomer point of view which I think is everyone's going to have their own opinion around this debate. It's worth completely worthy of of having and and talking about. Uh but but how does Elon square that with like I'm trying to build the biggest cluster possible and you know distill on the rest of the industry's model and you know create tens of of gigawatts of space compute and like how how does that how does that like can't this kind of witness potentially backfire in some capacity? No, I mean you're you're you're exactly right in that squaring that circle is pretty hard and like exactly what um I should be I I I should be trusted with the you know all powerful we're going to be in the Terminator situation no matter what. So you want me in charge of the Terminators, not some other guy, not some nonprofit, not some well shareholders. He is he is he's basically making he's he's he's pivoting Tesla production to uh Terminators. The Terminators basically Optimus. Yeah. Great. No, I I and like can I just make one last point is that I think he he misunderstood the Terminator because like we still survive and we fight back in that world. Do you remember this? I've been saying this. People haven't seen the movie. Jordy actually hasn't seen the Terminator, but in all of these Are you kidding me, dude? In in in all of these movies like it completely leaves out that there is a problem and then humanity overcomes it. And so it's like if there is a Terminator scenario like I just want to know that you're on my side as the resistance fighting back and like whether the Terminator comes from you are John Connor hopefully. I mean I I would yeah it's I don't know. I don't want to get into the the the full Yudkowsky thing, but like like it is reasonable to be to to to to sort of steelman that like if it is bad right now it's not. It sucks.
Says I have to watch Terminator tonight. You got to watch Terminator. Okay. So, literally I just saw this on Twitter. Terminator 2 is coming back into IMAX pretty soon. Like you can go see it in the theater. So you have to go see it, Jordy. Like it's it's required viewing. Let's go together. Yeah. I'm down. I'm down. Do you do you have any I would say that so far the trial is less I mean it's hard for the trial to go very viral because there's no audio video and it's just like live blogging and you can imagine you can imagine some of these scenes like just the stuff that you're typing I'm like if that was on video that gets like 50 million views in like you know in a few hours on on on X you know across a bunch of these different aggregator accounts. Um, but part is is maybe part of the like my my feeling is like it's just so it's just so like I feel like the entire tech industry is like it's just kind of depressing to see to see these groups like fighting in this way when we have so much bigger problem like we have so many bigger problems as an industry right the big problem being like public perception of AI is like already so bad like people you know don't don't like you know I I saw some protest signs that were like no matter who wins we all lose or something like that like there's some very negative stuff and
I mean that so I totally agree and I do think actually um everyone not everyone but like many in the AI industry have started realizing oh we have like not everyone loves us like this is a perception problem in a lot of way which like to me is funny because like I I not that I'm smart but I feel like I've known that for a little while and but it's the the the issue is the the industry is coming around to that or at least certain folks are and know that they want to change that perception. But this case has been in the system for like years now and sort of like actually happening at a time where they wouldn't want it to necessarily happen if they're trying to change that. So the timing just sucks honestly for for folks who don't like that if that makes sense.
Yeah. There's so many different like little tidbits and I don't know if they're going to be exact quotes but you can just imagine plenty of things that are going to happen on the stand winding up on a Bernie Sanders poster and being like stop it Paul's AI right because like you know it's always like give the tech people enough rope to hang themselves and like there's a lot of rope going out the next couple weeks. Oh my gosh. It's totally you got to one of y'all both of y'all should just show up to the courtroom at some point and like experience it because I mean you have an actual day job but it's like literally it's really interesting and like an experience. So you you can't record video, you can't record audio, but is there a world where you have like five of your own stenographers there taking a perfect transcript? Would that be possible with enough resources? And then we could do a table reading on the show. That's what I'm thinking is that is that you could use voice cloning. I don't know if you noticed this. Uh Tyler, what was it? Grok launched voice cloning today or something which is Why is that controversial again? Well, for like I mean we've had this technology for like 5 years and then no one released it because like you don't want people to make deep fakes of other people's voices. Okay. Yeah. Because it's like textbook like I could I call you I call you John. I need I need I need like I need 500 bucks. Can you give me your credit card for a second? So obviously there's a bunch of risky uses of that. The good use is the comedic table read in the voice of Sam Altman in the voice of Greg Brockman in the voice of Elon Musk that we can all enjoy. I was thinking more of like doing like a end of the day. There's like we do a play here where we have all of a bunch of different full makeup, full costume. So, you know, there are transcription services and even like you could do you could be Mike Isaac by like Oh, yeah. We need someone playing you for sure. No, it's like it's it's a cameo. He's playing Oh, he's playing himself. Okay. Uh, I think you got to go full Nathan. And the whole the whole time just crashing out like I forgot my lunch. I forgot to fill up my water. I had a banana. I had a banana. Oh my god. Can I just say there is an attorney there that looks exactly like Nathan Fielder that I'm like almost like this Nathan looks like Nathan. I every time I see him I'm like is this like a bit like I'm am I going to be on TV in some way? It's very intense. You got to ask him next year. I mean, Elon Musk says the funniest outcome's the most likely and that might be seriously like what is the what is the funniest outcome? The funniest outcome is like Elon wins and the penalty is like is like 50 bucks or something like that. It's like it's like Elon like you win here's here's $150. Enjoy it. Just the most like inconsequential fine for the AI industry which is flush with cash at all times. Well, I find that like fine. Like there's so many anytime a company in tech gets that gets fined or not every time, but often it's like sometimes it's a fine for ants. Yeah. Like they they they did something that was bad. They generated a hundred million of revenue and the fine is like $1.5 million. It's like did that I think the current Meta YouTube lawsuit was like maybe a $10 million settlement. Of course, there was like knock on of potential for class. That was for one That was for one individual. That was one individual. But still, it was like you have this like landmark case, this big build, and then you're like, 'Oh, how how how damaging is it going to be? It's going to be like five minutes of revenue.' But the stock actually in Meta earnings as as far I mean there was a lot of [__] that took the stock down, but like I think one of them was them saying like this might have a material impact on like these cases like may have a material impact in the future if it opens the door. So like, yeah, I agree. Like it's always remedies are always like it can be existential from a financial point of view, but also just from a guess what this is about to become your whole [__] life for the next 10 years or whatever, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. We talked to a a law professor who uh said like the question is does social media exist in the future? Like this is an existential moment. I'm not sure that we're quite there, but uh it is it is there is definitely a risk and you need to consider that if you're an investor. Totally. Anyway, Charlie, uh, what's the game plan for next week? What's going in? Are you doing trail mix? Are you doing protein bars? I want you fueled up, ready to go. Camelback came back. You You should be able to do like a sponsored CamelBak, you know? Camel. Did you ever watch Jury Duty, the show Jury Duty? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, of course. I I want to be the guy with like the chair pants and the like the water thing attached to my back and like I need I'm gota This is blogging. This is back in my blogging all things digital blog days man. This is this is it. So I will more prepared this weekend. Go you should go sit in a chair for eight hours straight. Are you going to do all four days? Are you doing all four days? I think we're going to switch off a little more. I I apologize. Says I will not be my like disastrous falling apart self every day of the week just maybe two days of the week. So uh Kade you should follow Kade Metz my other colleague who's there. Um although he he is much more put together and does not tweet like a person off their meds like I do. So uh it'll be a different vibe each day but I I will be there next week. Yeah. Last question. Is this book material? Is it does it rise to that quality this drama? I do like someone's got to write I would write a book on your coverage of this trial. Yes, that's what I want to read this the my and then I would do a podcast about it. I would do a podcast about it and then someone would make a book about the podcast about the book covering we'll create a content Ouroboros here. Keep it going someday. I don't know. We'll see. Anyway, thank you so much for great to catch up. Good to see you. Thanks for the update. We'll talk to you soon. Have a good one. Thanks, guys. I'll see you soon. Goodbye. Uh, we're running late, but we got Kyle Harrison in the waiting room. Let's bring him in to the CVPN Ultra Dome. He wrote a book about the Anduril thesis, 300 pages of defense, tech, lore, history, knowledge. You know what's more valuable than any of these cars up here in the Hollywood Hills? Knowledge. And you wrote a book. Tell us about it. What was the process? What was the thesis of the book? The Anduril thesis.
It was an incredible experience. I would say I think the thing that I came to appreciate the most was everybody talks about Anduril like it's just any other company. Um all these high growth companies that are are defined by an awesome team chasing a big idea market turns out to be bigger than you possibly expect. You know Ben Horowitz has to tell Databricks that they're undervaluing themselves at 10 billion. It's 100 billion. It's 200 billion. Yep. Like those stories are very common. Yep. The Anduril story is so underappreciated because it is counterpositioned to there's like over almost hundred years of military, geopolitical, industrial history that really define uh the company that people just they just they don't know like they think about oh this is an interesting strategic choice and it's like no this is actually because of things decisions that people made in the 50s and 60s that we literally have to do things this way. That was the biggest takeaway.
Yeah, I feel like uh Shyam Sankar at Palantir with the first breakfast has done a good job shining a light on the last supper. So many people in tech are familiar with that sort of key moment of industry consolidation that led us to this moment. Uh were there any anecdotes or historical stories that you discovered that were more under the radar, more like less discussed as like you know the the the founding moments of this whole journey?
The biggest appreciation that I got was for this sort of like um dual pairing of people pushing forward a specific project. So in the Kill Chain which is Chris Brose who now is the kind of co-president and chief strategy officer at Anduril but at the time was coming off the Armed Services Committee he wrote this book the Kill Chain he talks about this idea of like military mavericks and I kind of combined this with this kind of founder founder mode energy that people bring and so you have this like founder plus military maverick pairing where you have folks like the the team um so Bernard Schriever I think is the name of the guy who basically led the team inventing ICBMs. He absolutely needed Eisenhower as his kind of military maverick to like pair that effort. There's countless stories of this, the modernization of the Navy. There's all these different things that were like that one-two punch was kind of require once you get away from like, you know, at one point the DoD was 36% of global R&D. They had a pretty good handle on the cutting edge. Once you the further away you get from that, the more you need founder mode people digging in to figure out the solution. And and it's heartbreaking because you see these like countless examples of like prophets of urgency throughout time where like once we lost that that sort of like desire for founders to come in and solve problems. Um you have all these people who are like throughout the 80s and 90s and early 2000s they were releasing reports and and writing white papers and talking about how hey this is going to be a problem. Warfare is changing. China's going to school on how we do conflict and that's problematic. And none of them had sort of founders to be able to come solve problems because no one was willing to pay attention to the actual problems and and so we lost that pairing.
Uh there's reports of Anduril raising a new round $60 billion potentially uh is this book a financial thesis? Is this financial advice? Is this something that uh investors, potential investors, maybe future investors?
Yeah, there's four chapters dedicated to price targets. Price targets, multiples, cash entertainment purposes only. Right across the right across the No, this is this does not constitute financial advice. Entertainment purposes only. Uh you know what's crazy is I think if I remember correctly in secondary markets uh if if there is any secondary volume that that Anduril's founders haven't already gone to war on. I heard somebody say uh that it was like 100 billion indication like even just tracking like what people are willing to pay because of Matt Grim's war. There may be no no supply for the demand but the demand is priced at 100 billion. So it's not you know whether where the new round ends up whatever the appetite continues sequel sequel the Anduril financial thesis. Let's go. That's right. This is investment advice. Uh, Anduril's been very very inquisitive and it feels like the some of the most like meaningful innovation and like founder mode behavior in the last 20 years has come out of like Ukraine and what what they've been doing to basically uh figure out how to like innovate and create these like R&D loops around drone warfare. Like do any any I I don't know if you can make predictions, but like does Anduril end up buying any of these companies? Is that is that have you have you uncovered anything on that front? Is that even is that even a possibility? Um it just feels like they've done some very impressive work to uh protect their their country and um a lot of it seems relatively aligned to Anduril's own efforts. Yeah. So there's a couple of pieces of the puzzle. So first like in terms of how inquisitive Anduril has already been. Um you know our good friend Py McCormack has described it well. I think that calling it an an API into the DoD. Um where Anduril is effectively enables this like plug-in mechanism of somebody can go very deep into a very specific capability in a way that like like um companies like the the company that made Dive like it'd be very difficult for them to sort of become a standalone large company but by being acquired by Anduril immediately they're able to plug in and get a $100 million contract with the Australian Navy and and stuff like that. So I think like the acquisition muscle plugs in a lot of this stuff pretty capably. The second piece of that puzzle is I think that a lot of times we do a disservice like the um venture capital industrial complex does a disservice by focusing everybody on this sort of like neoprime northstar of everybody needs to be the 10 20 50 hundred billion dollar outcome. I think that there are a lot of opportunities for companies to be very very good at a very specific thing capability and then to plug into some of these these systems whether it's through partnership or through acquisition. And what's funny, probably the most frustrating part about the book is we wrote it over the course of of two years. In part because we, you know, it's it's difficult to sit down. We all have day jobs and stuff, but in part too because the world is constantly changing, right? When we started when we originally sat down thinking about what this would look like um you know, none of the things that happened in um in Israel, like Ukraine was sort of just continuing to evolve, Venezuela happens, all these different conflicts happen over over time. But then on top of that, Anduril as a company continues to ship. And so even six months ago, I would have said, you know, what is the kind of like signal? And what's interesting is you look at some of their product launches. Some of these requisition get some through partnership, but I don't know if you guys have seen their um like anime style product launch videos, right? So I don't know if everybody has noticed this, but um the last two videos had teasers of their future products. So I think it was the video that where they talked about Fury and then it was maybe Fury or the Barracuda um and then at the end of the video it kind of went under the water and you started to see these assets moving but then it cuts away and you don't know what it is. Couple months later they al they announce Copperhead which is their like torpedo product and that paired with Dive and stuff and then they have a video about that and at the end it pans above the water and you start to see this thing kind of come out of the corner of the shot and it cuts away and then just whatever it was last week or so Anduril announced a partnership with Hyundai about building autonomous surface vessels right so it's like kind of going into all these different surface areas um I think that that is indicative of like where the signal is is that whether it's through partnership Whether it's through acquisition, a lot of the stuff that's happening in Ukraine, what you're what you're kind of exposing is that there is significant opportunity for uncrewed assets and Anduril is absolutely has this mindset on becoming the the sort of uncrewed everything the military military internet of things is what Chris Brose calls it.
Where can people find the book?
Amazon.com. Our own Jeff Bezos is hosting it for us. We're not in the book printing business. So audio book version of Oh, they print. They have a print on demand. It's sick. It's great. It's You put in
The thing. It takes a lot of time. You thinking what I'm thinking, John?
It's pretty good. I'm telling you, it's time to ship books.
You got to write a book about TBPN, the novelization.
We want to make ad-supported business books. They're free, but they come with ramp ads.
Yep. That's great. You get yourself a good design as easy as it could be.
Last question from my side. Have we reached peak early-stage defense tech investing boom? Has it already passed? Are we still on the up? Like, what is your feeling at this point?
I think that it is going to take to take the air out of the balloon is going to require some type of black swan. Hopefully, micro black swan event. We don't want it to be too bad and too...
Wait, you said to take the air out of the defense tech investing sales, you would need a black swan event. So you're saying like we declare global peace.
So I think it's going to take... I think it's more about the capability. I think it's going to take like either there is a company that has been highly valued, highly sought after, kind of held up as one of the golden children of the neo-defense industrial wave that just something terrible. It's really bad. Like something very bad happened. And so then investors start to say, 'Oh crap, wait, you're telling me not every company I invest in that does defense is going to be the next and I can't underwrite to every company. Maybe they're not 60 billion, but at least they'll be 20 billion.' Like if that underwriting muscle goes away, you have a whole swath of carpet-bagger VCs that suddenly get very panicked. Like something like that happens.
So there were a whole bunch of like fifth-wave social companies that didn't get the Instagram acquisition. They didn't get the WhatsApp acquisition. They raised a couple hundred million bucks and they just sort of burned it down and just went away and nothing really happened. And the VCs sort of woke up and they were like, 'Okay, we got to be much more careful if we're investing in that category.' So yeah.
Yeah, because I think the problem is like there are sort of three varieties of VCs in and around defense tech more broadly. And it's like the people who invest and get it and they're actively built, they understand the moral implications of the types of technology they're investing in. Then there are still people who have said we will not invest in weapons, we don't want to invest in defense, whatever. It's this middle-ground tier that is problematic. It's these people who they have no real philosophical weight behind why they do what they do. They just see big number and pursue shiny object regardless of consequences.
Line go up. Well, we hope that the line goes up on your book sales. Head over to amazon.com and buy The Andal Thesis by Kyle Harrison of Contrary. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Can't wait to see you soon. Have a great day.
Congrats, dude. Goodbye. Thanks.
Up next, we have David Marcus from Lightspark. He's the co-founder and CEO and he's launching Grid Global Accounts, a Bitcoin-powered system enabling global USD accounts, cards, and cross-border payouts. We talked a lot about crypto payments yesterday. We'll let you introduce the business yourself again. Welcome back to the show. Give us the update and what's going on in your world. Great to see you.
Thanks for having me back, guys. Well, look, so the big announcement we had this week, so Lightspark has been around for about four years and you know in the last four years we've been building connectivity into payment systems all around the world, like 65 countries now. And the announcement that we added this week is Grid Global Accounts, which is basically a global dollar account that any platform can issue and give to their stakeholders. And that dollar account is what I think is the most powerful money account ever created because you can move money in real time to 65 countries payment systems like really at any time of the day or night. You can move money on any chain with any stablecoin you want. You will have a Visa debit card that can allow you to spend that balance in 175 million merchants around the world that Visa supports and Lightspark is becoming a principal member of the Visa network as part of that process. And it's got like this nice feature that enables those platforms to actually be ready for the complete change of interfaces as we move from websites and apps to conversational interfaces driven by agents. And so this idea that you can delegate safely money to agents so they can buy things or send money around the world for you is really part of that whole Grid Global Account platform that we've announced and launched this week.
Very, very cool. So when did you guys start thinking about this opportunity? Obviously, you know, everyone's thinking about stablecoins. We have more regulatory clarity than ever. Was this always on the roadmap or did you guys start to get customers saying like, hey, we want support for stables and not just BTC-related products?
Yeah, I mean, look, I think you know we've been working on stablecoins for a long time. But this concept of a global dollar account that can actually live everywhere is really novel and like there was no chance of us actually doing that like even 12 months ago because like the prerequisites, the stars were really not aligned, right? And right now with the Genius Act here in the US, with MiCA in Europe and similar legislation all over the world plus really, really great embedded wallets like you know the self-custodial wallets of like two years ago where you had a seed phrase that you could lose and you would never give that to a family member because like they would lose money almost invariably. All of that is gone, right? So now you have really great wallets that you can log in with Google, with Apple, with a passkey, with any login that's familiar and never lose your keys or your money. And the last part of it is actually really stablecoin-backed debit cards where the networks have really leaned in hard on and like now gives us an opportunity to really basically connect those dollar accounts to 175 million merchants around the world making that balance really useful for anyone receiving money on them.
Yeah, very cool. Is the pivot from crypto miner to AI neocloud that's happening across the industry having any sort of effect on crypto markets or is that a... because we talk to companies all the time that are compute constrained, there's this CPU crunch, there's GPU crunch, there's backlogs for power and data centers are delayed and that's what's going on in the AI world. But Bitcoin as a network needs compute as well, many other chains need compute and is compute scarcity bleeding over in any way to the upside or downside? I just don't know the effect at all. Does it matter or is there enough compute for crypto to do everything that they want to do as a community?
Yeah, I mean, look, I mean proof of work is definitely and so you know more specifically for the Bitcoin network, proof of work is definitely using the level of energy that at times will compete with like AI data centers. But you know the hardware is like you know started GPU-based but is very ASIC-driven now. But on the energy side definitely competes for the same source of energy. But look, I am personally an acceleration maximalist and I actually think that we're actually going to unlock unbounded energy in the next like you know 10, 15 years. So I actually don't think that we're going to have these types of issues of like actually competing resources with like massively like you know forward-deployed amounts of capital on Bitcoin miners being replaced with you know GPUs. And also like those data centers for Bitcoin mining are so specific like you know a lot of those miners are you know liquid-cooled in a certain way and like operate on certain grids that you know they're able to actually like turn on and turn off the mining capabilities really easily whereas like you know harder for...
You don't necessarily want to do that if you're like actively serving inference or even just like training, you might not want to bring the train down. Interesting. Where are you expecting to see the first real hockey stick growth when it comes to agents leveraging stablecoins? Like right now it feels like there's a lot of like potential early experiments going on, but at least to me it's unclear where we'll see that, you know, really breakout use case.
Well, I mean I can share a little bit more about like, you know, my thoughts and my experience. Like you know the first thing is I think that everyone competing to build like an agent-to-agent protocol standard is kind of like you know really future-forward and there's not much happening there right. It's like there's a lot of like big news and big announcements and very little volume and that's normal because like you know agents are not moving money at scale by any stretch of imagination. We took a little bit of a different stance, right, which is that we want to build a mass-market money account that suits the needs of people and businesses all over the world. And then we've built a safe scope delegation framework that enables those agents to actually use the debit card, use the 65 countries reach of moving money around, use like the multi-chain support for stablecoins, and then you can delegate that. And so what I've done with mine and I've lived with it for the last like you know five weeks or so. So I have my Grid Global Account and then I have an OpenClaw running on a Mac mini at the office and I connected both and so it just takes a scoped debit card, goes buy things online which is actually more difficult than I thought you know starting this but like it now works. It can message people on WhatsApp that I need to send money to and offer them like you know seven or eight different ways to pay them and I don't have to worry about it. And it really works real time really, really well and it's been so much fun to actually build on OpenClaw and have like a money account that Lobster could use. It's been a lot of fun.
Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Lobster accounts. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to come chat with us. Congrats on the progress. Great, great to get the update. I'm sure we'll see you back way deeper in the next... hopefully in the next one or two quarters. Yeah. Fantastic. Sounds good. We'll talk to you soon. Goodbye. Have a great weekend.
Up next, we have Turner Caldwell from Mariana Materials. Mariana Materials, like the Mariana Trench. We'll get into it with Turner Caldwell, the co-founder and CEO. Help me understand how to pronounce this company's name. I don't want to get it wrong. Mariana Minerals.
Okay. Where's the name come from?
It comes from the Mariana.
But that's because we were looking... Let me guess. They've got some crazy minerals down there. Or do we even have...
There are some minerals at the bottom of the ocean. That's right. That we are looking at.
So, you're saying you yearn for the trenches.
That's right. There you go.
Okay. The business is an autonomous copper mine. Can you take me a layer deeper? Explain the history of the business, the current shape of the business, where you're taking it all.
Yeah, sure thing. So, we just restarted a copper mine that we acquired at the end of last year with a major focus on autonomy across the entire stack. So, that includes the kind of orchestration layers around mining operations as well as autonomous execution which we'll do with partners and then also autonomy around the refining processes. So the site is a mine and a refinery.
Yeah. But in practice, what does that look like? Like you go into the mine and there's some like ERP system or maybe just some like manual paper-based workflow and you're saying like let's go vibe code a software solution for it like or is it more than vibe coding?
But basically the way to think about mining is that you have a whole bunch of different disciplines that have to collaborate. It's a big coordination problem. You have geologists, you have a geological block model, you'll have a mine plan. You'll usually have multiple mine plans like a long-range, medium-range, and short-range mine plan. That has to be transferred to the mine operations teams that are running like large-scale not autonomous large-scale manual mining equipment. Then what is actually in the ore usually shows up on a piece of paper to the refinery saying like get ready to process this. Okay. And then the refiner, the folks who are running the refinery have to figure out like kind of the optimal process conditions to maximize recovery of copper, lithium, nickel, cobalt, manganese, iron, graphite, kind of the whole thing, all of the different metals through the processing circuit. And so what we're doing is we're kind of integrating everything into one like integrated data frame first. And so there's a lot of work that goes into kind of bringing all the data feeds back into one like kind of aggregated architecture. And then we'll build world models of the mines, of the refineries that we then use to kind of do a reinforcement learning training that we feed up into a reinforcement learning training pipeline. And then you want to close the loop between what reinforcement learning agents are recommending on the policies that are developed to the actual thing that's happening in the mine. And so, we'll bring autonomous haul trucks in, we'll bring autonomous drill rigs in, we'll bring in autonomous loaders and dozers and graders and water trucks, kind of like all the assets that are being used to run a mine. That today, you know, 99% of mines are manned. And we want to go full closed loop between kind of the world models and the reinforcement learning agents and determining what the autonomous assets actually do and then that to the refinery.
What do you think the potential efficiency gains are from going from legacy copper mine to the kind of end state, you know, fully autonomous system?
Yeah, I think it'll happen in two phases. I think the first phase is going to double productivity through just like better orchestration and better logistics management and better utilization of all the equipment. That's productivity and unit cost. You know, diesel is a good example for heavy haul machinery. Like half of the diesel consumption, up to half, is from like idle time in the pit on the equipment. And so there's a lot of kind of like short-term potential gains, but I also think that autonomy is going to fundamentally change. It's going to unlock a lot of like operating modes that can't really be done with humans. And so the way that the mining industry has kind of driven down cost over an extended period of time has been through scale. So the haul trucks are getting bigger, the shovels are getting bigger. And it's all focused on kind of reducing your labor intensity. So, you know, maximizing tons of ore moved or tons of material moved per unit of like labor hour. But as you move into like autonomous systems and eventually kind of like design the mines themselves to be autonomous, I think we're going to see things get smaller. And like swarm mining is going to get unlocked and that's fundamentally going to enable you to actually kind of like be more selective in how you mine. Your roads get smaller which means you can maximize kind of recovery of the ore from the pit. So I think it'll all happen in two phases. It's like take the existing architecture make it autonomous and maximize utilization and availability of equipment. And then there's going to be this like once autonomy is kind of like fully demonstrated across the stack. There's going to be this opportunity to actually attack like fundamentally how our mines are.
You started the company in 2024.
Yep. End of 2024. Raised a seed round in August. We're at 220 people now across the company. We have two projects. One is a lithium refinery in East Texas that's extracting lithium from oil and gas wastewater and the other is our kind of first large-scale commercial mine.
Another one. He's got two. Yeah, exactly. Pitch for you. Robotic canaries. Do they exist?
We have a Boston Dynamics Spot that is basically our like mobile sensing system, you know, instead of the canary in the coal mine. And we use them mostly for like undercarriage inspection. So like you want to keep humans away from like heavy haul machinery. The closer they get to it obviously the more hazards that are present. But also like the chemical refineries ideally humans aren't walking through chemical plants all the time kind of doing thermal inspections. There's a lot of stuff that's like auditory, so you're like listening for sounds of the motors sounding weird. And the exactly. And then that all needs to feed back into like again the integrated kind of like sensing integrated like data frame that tells you like what's the health of the systems.
Okay. Did you start with copper in 2024?
We started with lithium in 2024.
Because it feels like there's this whole autonomy story, more efficiency, all of that makes sense. But the price of copper's doubled since you started the company. And I feel like that just makes bringing a copper mine back online just wildly different from an economic perspective. And it's very interesting that you're sitting at the tailwind of like two AI trends, which are just demand for copper for data center development, wires, circuitry, all this other stuff. And then you can actually be more efficient, but you can be as efficient as they were a couple years ago and just reap twice the price. It feels like the oil dynamic, right?
Yeah, that's right. But I don't think so. The reason you want to be diversified is because like all these metals are cyclical and you can't really like live and die by a single commodity price. And so the plan was always to diversify and the plan is to continue to diversify into nickel and cobalt and uranium and graphite and rare earths. And as we kind of work to build 10 projects in the next 10 years. But we started working on this project kind of like well before copper had its like little explosion and run that it's on. Because you don't really want to jump into projects in the middle of the hype. Like that's when you're going to pay the most for an asset. That's when the labor pool is most in demand. The equipment suppliers that make the equipment that is specific for a specific metal are going to have longer lead times and have higher pricing. And so you really do want like we jumped into lithium when lithium was like at the bottom of its recent trough and jumped into copper you know before it started to go on this run. So generally we want to work on metals that we think have a long-term like supply-demand imbalance and for copper it very much felt like grades are dropping or deposits are getting deeper, methodologies are getting more complex and it just means it's going to be a lot harder to make copper in the future and that's what we want to work on.
What were you doing before this?
I was at Tesla for about a decade. Most recently was running our minerals and metals team. So, I was building our lithium refinery in Corpus Christi in Texas and running a lot of our battery recycling work.
Very cool. Kind of like the absolutely most perfect background for a company like this that any VC couldn't dream of a more perfect resume for this business. What's all the text in the Gulf behind you for that map? I understand that it's a map of America, but what's all the text for?
So these are all basically calling out like things that don't have space for the words on map. Okay. So it's just a legend you got.
Yep. Well, our project is right on the border with Louisiana. So that's why we got it in the background on the lithium side.
Well, you're a legend and thank you for coming on the show. Legendary appearance. Yeah, great to meet you. Have a fantastic weekend. Thank you so much for coming on the show. We'll talk to you soon. Goodbye. Another one. We got another guest, Everett Taylor. He's the CEO of Kickstarter coming in the Ultra Jump. He's in the waiting room right now. Everett, how are you doing? Welcome to the show.
I'm good. I'm good. Sunny Florida right now, so I'm escaping the cold in New York right now. So feeling good. How's it going?
Amazing. I'm very excited to talk about the Next Wave Fund. But first I'd love to know a little bit about your journey to Kickstarter, where the business is today, what your day-to-day is like, how big is this company? Sort of set the ground for us.
Yeah. So, I mean, Kickstarter, you know, started in 2009. I've been here about four years now. And you know, we're the largest creative crowdfunding company in the world, and we still are today. When I came into the company though, the company was in a bit of decline. We were down 20% year-over-year really. And since then, you know, we've grown dramatically year-over-year. Last year, we had another record-breaking year. This year, we're already up 52% year-over-year over last year. So, the company has been scaling and growing as we are transitioning just from a crowdfunding company to more of a creator economy company.
How has the AI boom, the Gen AI boom benefited or changed Kickstarter projects? When I think about the catnip of Kickstarter projects, it's like a board game that probably took a lot of time to build. And if the idea is great, I might not care if somebody used an image gen model to speed up the graphics for a tree on the back of some playing card. I could see this being a bit... Not at all. I mean, I'm sure a lot of Kickstarter creators historically were spending a ton of money on renders. Totally. Totally. But at the same time, does this exist at all or is this just AI slop and there's a community dynamic and there's an artist displacement dynamic and so how have you grappled with the pros and cons of the last two years crazy boom in AI?
Yeah, it's a great question. On the AI side, funny enough, gaming is where it's probably the most controversial, right? Because it tends to be very artist-forward, right? And so we've gotten probably the most pushback and some of the most negative pushback on the AI side from gaming because they really want to see artists be able to have jobs and do their thing. And so, you know, we were one of the first major tech companies to have our own AI policy. Every Kickstarter creator if they're using AI, they actually have to say upfront how they're using AI, crediting the artist, if they're using another artist, etc., etc. But on the design and technology side, these new AI-powered tech products, especially in the hardware side, it's booming, right? So, both categories are growing, but you see the differences in how people are accepting of AI.
Yeah, that makes sense. Talk about the partnership with Google. What's the news?
Yeah. So this week we announced the Next Wave Fund with Google to power the next generation of tech innovation. I'm a founder myself. I saw the struggles, you know, being an early-stage tech founder struggling to get funding. And so what we really wanted to do was give early-stage tech startups and small business owners the funding they need, the tools to be successful, the guidance that they need, and also be able to leverage Kickstarter's audience of millions of people to really get their first customers and scale their product. So this fund is focused on innovative products in hardware, software, gaming, and connected technology. And people will get $10,000 upfront non-dilutive capital from Kickstarter and Google to launch their products and their companies on Kickstarter. And we wanted to focus on these areas because Kickstarter has just a natural product-market fit for technology and gaming. They're our two largest categories and we also have a large audience for both.
So you're going to have a huge portfolio.
Well, Kickstarter doesn't take any equity. I mean, I have an Oura ring right now. I wish we did take some equity on that, but yeah, we don't take any equity. And so, this is really as a way to support people, give them the tools that they need to be successful. And also build a relationship with Google, right? These people will have an opportunity to apply to Google accelerators for their business as it grows and scales. They'll get access to our team that you know has decade-plus of experience in scaling new products. So it's a great opportunity for a lot of people.
Where can people get started? Take us through the... is there an application process? Where does the journey start for someone who wants to participate?
Yes. So you can go to our website and check out the Next Wave Fund. You can apply. This is for entrepreneurs or small businesses with fewer than 20 full-time employees. Like I said, your project has to be focused on technology or digital gaming. And unfortunately, we've been hearing this and we got to shout out to our international creators, but this is for the US only. So, at least one member of your team has to be a citizen of the US and be 18 years old.
Well, lots of opportunities. And thank you for taking us through it. Thank you for taking the time to chat with us. Great to meet you and great to meet you. We'll talk to you soon. Your favorite. Goodbye. There are many more conversations going on in the timeline today. One was kicked off I think by Josh Kushner. I think he sort of started this. There were some other people talking about data center beautification. And he summed it up perfectly. He says make data centers aesthetically beautiful. And so people have been quote-tweeting, posting, riffing on this, sharing different ideas. More people would be pro data center if every data center had a beautiful open-to-the-public heated pool. That's an interesting twist. Full water slide. I think halfpipe is a big idea. Monster truck rally constantly going on. These are ways to, you know, win people over. Sort of a Nitro Circus going on in every data center.
