Sam, we've been doing it all wrong. This whole business thing, this building thing, we've been doing it all wrong.
See, we thought you have to build a product. That product has to do something, has to add value, solve a problem. And here I will read you this tweet. This is from Next to TV. They say, "Dopamine websites are the new trend in South Korea. These services let users endlessly browse food delivery menus, read reviews, fill their shopping carts, and even track their shipment. But the only catch, none of it's real. You're not really placing an order for anything. There are also virtual smoke breaks where you can join anonymous people in chat rooms to recreate the feeling of taking a smoke break without having to smoke a cigarette. The idea is simple. Give people the familiar dopamine hit without them having to actually spend any money, leave the house, smoke, or do anything else along those habits. And these are becoming incredibly popular in South Korea apparently."
Is this the same country that's having a massive birth rate issue?
It checks out if they're going to create virtual smoke groups and fake buy stuff. What the heck, guys?
So the trend started, you know, this year and it's basically Korean Gen Z. They sort of realized that a lot of the fun in online shopping is just browsing. It's just putting things in the cart, hitting checkout. You know, getting the actual product is, you know, sure that maybe that adds some value, but there's a lot of fun in just the other side of it. And so you can see here, I can pull one of them up. Let me open. And so this is an app called Food Never Comes.
And all right. So check this out. So you open up the app and you could select rabbit or turtle delivery. So fast or slow. Oh, do you want to, should we pay for fast or slow?
I guess we should pay for fast. I want to get it. I want to get my fix.
Let's treat ourselves. Okay. So now there's a fried chicken restaurant. So we can have the half and half crispy chicken. The cheese balls. Got to go with the cheese balls. Maybe the soy glazed chicken. We'll go spicy. We'll add a cola. Add to cart. And then we can go ahead. We could check out. We put in our info here. And then we could watch this delivery make its way to our house. Never actually come. And that's it. It's the blue balls of entrepreneurship. Sam, are you in or are you out?
Dude, how can this group of people who have brought us such amazing things like the Kia Telluride or Samsung...
Yeah. Like go and do something so stupid. They're the Koreans. You guys really are like the barbell strategy of life. They're bringing us such amazing wonderful goodness and such silliness. I guess I don't get this. Why are people doing this? On behalf of our huge, I'm sure South Korean followership, I will defend this by posting a picture of the White House this weekend where there was a giant motorcycle doing a backflip in front of the White House in preparation for UFC 250 to celebrate the birth of America. The two dudes in their underwear beating each other up on the White House lawn.
Yeah. You don't think that a fist fight on the White House lawn is appropriate? An organized fist fight where a Frenchman beats up a Brazilian.
Yeah. Yeah. Dude, look, I didn't say that we both can't be stupid. I'm just saying that this is wild. Are these things actually popular?
No, I can't tell. So obviously this makes for an amazing headline. There's also a reason that I open up the show with it because it's just funny to talk about and make fun of.
But there's not a lot of Korean people on Twitter, so we can't exactly refute this. It feels like Japan and America have like separate internets. Like have you ever gone to like a Japanese website? It's kind of challenging to use obviously, just even if it's just translated, it's still like totally separate and it's quite hard. And so like are there any like proper Korean people on Twitter to refute the story or can we just make up falsehoods about like...
I think we just make it up. It's like the good version of the Hunter Biden laptop story is the South Korean fake DoorDash story. Have you ever studied like eastern internet? You know, people study like eastern philosophy. Have you ever studied eastern internet?
Yeah, like I've studied Masayoshi Son from SoftBank. I believe he's a Korean guy who lives in Japan or is he Japanese who lives in Korea? Anyway, yeah, I've studied him and then I've studied like some of the Chinese websites or the super apps. They're like so mega that it's quite hard to understand what they're about. Yeah, there's so many crazy apps and sites. So just for example, I remember when we were looking into live streaming. So my first company that sold Bibo, it was in the live streaming space. We sold Twitch, which is the big American player, but live streaming is far more advanced in Asia than it is in the West. And if you go look at like I forgot which ones it was, y.com or whatever, there was a whole bunch of these where you would see somebody on video and then horizontally from right to left streaming across the screen would just be the entire chat and it was the most bizarre experience ever because you would see that 7,000 people are watching this girl eat noodles while text flies across the screen and people are spending thousands of dollars sending her virtual roses. And we were looking at this studying it like you know it's like when you study like a tribe and you're like so they just eat it and they were just like yeah this is exactly what they do. And then we tried to recreate as many of those variables as we could because these sites were incredibly popular.
Isn't there one where it's like fat people eating? It's like bang bang or is this...
Mukbang. They don't need to be fat.
Oh, I thought there was one guy like named Nico Avocado or something like that.
He got really fat doing it and then he lost a lot of weight and came back. He's kind of a weird guy. But yeah, the mukbang is basically watching other people eat. Just like you watch other people play video games, you watch other people play basketball. Turns out people want to watch other people eat and they like having that high definition sound watching them slurp and...
I get joy from that by the way. I always buy candy and sweets that I want to eat for other people and I just like I'll hand it to them. Yeah. I'll hand it to them. I'm like, "Eat it. Tell me how it feels." Like I definitely can get like secondhand sugar highs from other people.
Okay. So you're in. So we started out and now you're in. Dude, there's this whole genre of Indian barbers who shave people's heads who have dandruff and you could like it's like the oddly satisfying of like, oh, we found it. Let's wipe it off the head.
Yeah, the oddly satisfying stuff is crazy. There's other sites that I think are like the current trend of what's big in the east that's not yet big in the west. So before there was live streaming, that was obviously a huge one. Mobile gaming. So internationally, the biggest most popular games were all on your phone. There weren't Xbox, PlayStation, there really didn't have like big console or PC culture and so games like Free Fire or PUBG Mobile were huge and then Fortnite became the version of that in the US soon after. And so you could sort of see these trends moving over. Live shopping has been huge in Asia for a long time. Now Whatnot is the US equivalent of live shopping worth $10 billion. And so you can kind of look for these products that are over there and try to see when and how will they translate. So right now the big one is we've talked about this before but the short drama. So serial drama. So basically it's Netflix but you watch on your phone vertically. Each episode is like 30 to 60 seconds and it's basically soap operas of all different types of genres that people get incredibly addicted to. Huge in Asia. So huge in kind of like the China, Japan, Korea area. Now getting big in India. Only a matter of time till it's also just as big in the US is my guess.
I just pulled up these notes that I have from I think 2016. So there's this guy named Kevin Ryan. He's been on the podcast, friend of the pod. And he founded a bunch of companies. The biggest one being MongoDB, a multi-tens of billions of dollars company, but he also famously was the co-founder of Business Insider. And so I called him one time and he gave me some tips on how to start a media company because I didn't know anything. And I emailed him so many times that he relented. And I have these notes and something always stuck with me on this framework. So he said...
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He didn't use all these exact words. This is me typing. This is before granola existed. So he goes, he's like, "The Business Insider strategy is sort of what Honda did in 1985 versus General Motors." He was like, he didn't say this, but this is my notes. Start with shitty quality and get traffic to our website and improve. Quality, but we'll improve. Like how...
He said it in his old hands, inspiring all of his employees.
He didn't say it that way, but he was like, he said like Honda in 1985 versus GM. Honda was considered sort of a joke. GM cars were these like big heavy duty vehicles that made a big thunk when you shut the door and Hondas were like rinky dink. But the difference is that with Honda as well as with Business Insider, the quality of car that they were making increased but their cost stayed the same which is why Honda eventually won. And Business Insider we make content a lot cheaper than Wall Street Journal but we think that our quality is just going to continue to rise. And that was like his whole strategy. And I always thought that was really interesting. I thought that was a really cool analogy, which is you can start kind of like so-so and just slowly get better while keeping your cost the same. And he always referenced, he referenced in our call he was like Honda did this, Toyota did this. And I started thinking about this and I've always thought about this strategy that a lot of Asian companies did. If you remember, do you know TCL TVs?
I've never even heard of that. No.
So TCL, if you were to go on Amazon 6 years ago and buy a TCL TV, they were the worst. They were like pretty maybe 10 years ago, they were junky TVs, but you get a 65 inch flat screen TV for like literally $200. And over, I'm like a gadget nerd. And so over time, TCL is now a baller TV company and you could still get a 65 inch highest def fanciest TV for $200. I don't even know how this is possible. And I've always thought about this strategy of Asian businesses and I've noticed I don't know if it's particularly an Asian thing or because he referred to Asian car companies now I always think of it that way. They'll offer something where the quality is so-so but just good enough but over time like it's sort of like Hyundai or Kia or Genesis like particularly Asian car companies that's how I think of them is they're kind of like crappy at first but they just get so much better and then the prices stay the same. What I like about this is it's the opposite of the normal white guy referencing Asian culture thing where normally we take these like amazing Zen practices. We're like the Japanese use the word kaizen for the continuous pursuit of perfection and that's what we do here at our company or it's like wabi-sabi the beauty in imperfection. It's like always like these high and mighty things that like we're borrowing and he's like we use the term huntification where you start with [__] and it stays [__] for quite a while but eventually the [__] becomes a little less shitty and that's what we do.
It's like the first honest white guy like we give him an award for like he's doing all of the tone and the hand gestures but he's just saying the truth.
And we didn't stop there. We took the [__] that we had and the year after just a little bit less shitty because they don't know the difference. And we told...
There should just be like a whole service just like honest business translation, you know, like Google Translate, but just like corporate translation. And it's like take any company, put their mission, values, and earnings calls into this generator and it just tells you the truth.
Yeah, that's so funny. One of the greats, Kevin Ryan, probably no longer a fan of the pod.
No longer friend of the pod. Former friend of the pod, Kevin Ryan.
Told you that in confidence, Sam. There was a statute of limitations on notes, by the way. Once it's been 10 years, I could talk about it. So like anything that happened from pre-2016 I'm allowed to bring it up.
All right. So I was nerding out on something kind of related. So I'll segue to that. So you were talking about how for the TVs thing they charge 200 bucks and at first it's kind of a shitty TV but eventually it's kind of a great TV but still for 200 bucks which is different than I would say most companies which assume over time the goal is to raise our prices increase our margins increase our profits. So I was studying this investor called Nick Sleep and the short version for those who weren't there.
Ever since you brought him up, I've been on him.
Yeah. So you know his story in short is he was an investor basically raised money was an investor about 15 years average more than 20% compounding billions of dollars. He won the game shut down the fund and moved on. And most of the fund was concentrated in three positions Costco, Amazon and Berkshire Hathaway. For the longest period of time he was just holding those. And so the interesting part isn't, oh wow, here's a guy who picked right. You know, it's kind of like, oh, I'm interviewing a lottery winner to ask how they guessed the numbers. Like this is his daughter's birthday. It's not really that. It's if you ask what is Nick Sleep's philosophy, his core investing strategy. He had this idea of consumer surplus. So his main realization was look, there's many ways to invest. You could do what Buffett and Ben Graham were trying to do which is buy a company that's trading for less than it's worth or you could look at some of these companies that today look overvalued like Amazon at that time in the 2000s is like wow this thing's got a crazy price to earnings ratio and he realized that the best predictor of long-term value for him was something that he called shared scale economies. All right so what do those mean? So scale economies is usually when let's say you're Amazon, you have a large customer base, you're able to open warehouses in a bunch of different places and you get what's called economies of scale, which is that over time your cost to serve each additional customer go down because you're serving so many customers, you're able to almost amortize the investment cost across a large customer base. Now what Nick Sleep identified was called shared economies of scale.
Was that a word that he did he make this up?
Yeah. So I don't know if he invented it, but he was the one who really... Yeah. He really bet on it and he really made it the foundation of his investing strategy. So he realized like let's take Costco.
So Costco's goal is to basically get economies of scale, meaning they buy in bulk. They have tons of locations. So they have a lot of pricing power. They're able to buy things in bulk at cheap prices. And instead of what most retailers do, which is they buy wholesale, sell retail, right? They buy cheap and they sell it at a markup. Costco's goal was to make the markup as small as it could and pass all of the savings of buying in bulk to the customer. So he did the math and he realized like, okay, let's say that a Costco membership costs $100. Let's just use round numbers, right? And he realized that if for the average person who shops groceries at Costco, they're gonna save on their grocery bill, let's call it $1,000 a year just by buying Costco because Costco's passing on all those savings of buying in bulk to the customer. So the customer saves $1,000. They spend $100. And so the surplus that they've generated this $1,000 surplus and then they're only charging $100 for it's a no-brainer proposition. And so what happens is instead of increasing their prices and increasing their profits and increasing the money to their shareholders, they pass the profits to the customer which makes a juicier value proposition which attracts more customers which gives them more scale which allows them to create even more surplus. And so what he realized was that the companies that would do this that would start early on and pass on the savings to the customer, they would run away from the competition because they would have such a juicy value proposition, they would build so much trust with customers and have such an incredible offer to the customers that they would pick up all the customers. And so Costco for example, they make no money essentially on any of the food that they sell. They make all their money on the membership, which is like pure profit is the membership cost.
How much, so I'm just looking this, I knew that they were it was a baller stock. It does 300 billion a year in sales. How much in subscription in the membership sales? Do you know?
Five billion. Yeah. So what he realized at that time was he said, "Wow, everybody just looks at I think let's just say it was a billion dollars at that time." He's like, "When a traditional analyst will look at this company, they'll just see a billion dollars of profit. But what I see is 5 billion of surplus that they're passing on. And they passed on 4 billion last year, 5 billion this year. It'll be 7 billion next year, 10 billion the next year, and they're just going to keep passing on so much surplus that it's going to run away from the competition, and it'll create so much trust and so much loyalty that they'll never have any problems attracting customers. And so, he's like, that's an invisible metric that doesn't show up on the balance sheet. It doesn't show up on the P&L. You have to sort of manually calculate the shared economies of scale, how much of the surplus they're giving to the customers. And if you track the growth rate of that, what you want is companies where that growth rate is increasing. He said Amazon was the same way for 20 years. Bezos basically did not try to extract profits. He just reinvested all the capital to give people wider selection, faster shipping, and lower prices. And he realized that every year they're investing more money in giving people wider selection, faster shipping, and lower prices. The three things that consumers care about the most. And they have the Prime membership just like the Costco membership. And so he invested heavily in that. And I just thought, "Oh, wow. This is like a pretty brilliant insight, a way of looking at businesses that I've never thought about."
Yeah, that's actually it sounds stupid, but that's sort of like a groundbreaking stat, you know, that's actually very interesting. I've never ever have heard of a company that measures that like just how much savings we are passing on to you. That's pretty interesting. But who else does that? You have to do it with a company that's huge and where mass appeal or mass and then you need like a membership, right? Like a prime thing.
Well, it doesn't have to necessarily be a membership. There's other ways to do it, but you know, the two biggest examples he did was the membership because it's the beautiful way to monetize, right? It's like I'm going to give you so much value in the thing you're buying that giving me an annual recurring revenue membership is a no-brainer for you. And that's what Prime is. That's what the Costco membership is. And so, it worked out beautifully in those two cases. But it doesn't have to be just that. So for example, like I was talking to AI today and I was trying to say like well what other companies if there's these thousand companies which other companies would Nick Sleep see as having a high surplus and how would he look at it right and so AI is not great at doing analysis like this but one of the examples it brought up was SpaceX and basically it's like look SpaceX has already lowered the cost to orbit by 100x so it's reduced its cost by 100x but it didn't keep the prices to the government or anybody else. It also lowered it passed on the savings to the government, which is why it now takes like 80% of all payloads. It took all the business. It took all the market share by doing that. And they're trying to reduce another 100x and they're putting up all these satellites and they're trying to again pass the savings on to the subscribers for Starlink internet. And so here you're going to have again recurring annual membership, a no-brainer value proposition to a mass market of people. Everybody on Earth wants the internet. And they are getting economies of scale because as they improve their launch costs and their launch rates, they're not going to raise prices. They're going to pass it on and they're going to create a membership. So it's like SpaceX would be in a weird way like again same thing as Amazon today looked at as highly overvalued but potentially undervalued if you could figure out how to measure the surplus and see that the rate of the surplus was growing every year. It might look like one of those businesses. Now I'm not again I'm a noob at this stuff. So like I'm just sharing kind of like my beginner learnings with this just with you. I'm not saying that this is or is not the case. It's not financial advice or anything like that. But I do find this idea to be pretty interesting. It's an idea I hadn't really heard popularized before.
This guy is so interesting to me. He's got everything that I want. And does he have like long hair, nice calves?
Yeah. Like he, you Google his name, beautiful he's got a beautiful set of hair and only one photo. If you Google him, it's the same headshot used for everything.
Nick Sleep, come on the podcast. I mean, how many times are you going to let me podcast make out with you before you just finally get on here? Okay.
Yeah. Do you want to break decades of being anonymous? Come on. There's literally only one photo of them. I'm for real.
It's like I got to this hotel and I paid like a disgusting amount of money, but they had free snacks when I walked in and I was like honestly love this place. Great value. They gave me cake pops for free when we walked in. This is incredible. My kids are so happy. And I feel like that's our pitch to Nick Sleep. It's like, yes, you've been anonymous for 20 years and you value your privacy and you've turned down every opportunity under the sun, but we got peanuts and snacks. If you want to come on our pod, it'll be great.
He's 58 years old. He's not old. This guy's cool. There's an article called How to Retire at 45 and it's about him. So, I guess he's taking it easy. But, I would love to have this guy on. That would be so fascinating. Him and Paul Graham. Just there's something so mysterious about people who claim I've had enough and they opt out. I think that's interesting.
Well, one of the other takeaways real quick is you only need one or two, forget the word insight, I'll call it secrets in the Peter Thiel terms, right? You only really need to understand one or two secrets in your lifetime to become fabulously rich. And this is one of them. For example, I think Peter Thiel did this with network effect businesses. So understanding PayPal, Facebook early on and just understanding the power of a network effect and how unbreakable those monopolies become. And then another example is Buffett for example he doesn't invest in network effect tech companies or anything like this. What he looks at is what's not going to change and he's basically like the moat which is the pricing power. So he gives an example of I don't know if you saw this exchange but Elon was talking about how lame moats are. He's like I don't like the idea of moats. If you need a moat, that's lame. You should be innovating faster than everybody else. That's how you win. If you think a moat is going to protect you, that's not what protects you. Fast innovation protects you. This is Elon.
You're like, Elon, I don't think the word moat means what you think it means. Because you definitely have a moat.
Buffett replied and he was like, I don't know. He's like, let's say you go to a corner store and you ask for a Snickers and they say, hey, I got a Musk bar for 10 cents less. He goes, I don't think anyone's buying the Musk bar. And he's like, "In fact, if you go test this, if one place doesn't have a Snickers and they have an unbranded, unlabeled chocolate bar with peanuts in it, but the place across the street has a Snickers bar, the customer will just walk across the street and go buy a Snickers." And he's like, "So, yeah." He's like, "I look for Coca-Cola, Snickers, Gillette, American Express. I look for these brands and franchises where you'd have to pay someone to switch and even then they wouldn't want to." That was his core insight of like you just need to find these great American franchises and invest in them.
Did you see I want to bring up a person who we talked about somewhat recently but we didn't dive into, but really quick. Did you listen to the Lloyd Blankfein interview that we did that I did with and he talked about like his family finances and stuff like that?
No, I only I've listened to the first five minutes but I'm on vacation so I hadn't had time to like get my phone and listen to it. Why what did he say about his family? By the way, did you know this guy before? Am I dumb? I never heard of this person. And then you were like I knew of him all about this guy suddenly.
Well, when you and I were younger, probably in high school, that was like his peak prime. And so like during the...
So you knew him back then or only now?
I knew him as a famous like he was like the face of banking. He was like the Jamie Dimon of '08 particularly when Occupy Wall Street was a thing. He was like the face of evil because like the name Goldman is like and there was this funny line that he told me where he was like, "Yeah, they like protested outside of my house and everything." And I was like, "How does that feel?" He's like, "Well, two things. Like one, like go and try to get a mortgage from Goldman. Like you can't." So like I didn't cause the mortgage crisis, so I don't know why they were so angry at me. And second of all, they were camping outside of my house protesting, but like that's a door metaphor. He's like, I shouted out from the window on the fifth balcony in my house. We wouldn't give you a mortgage even if you tried. That didn't seem to help."
No, dude. He was super likable. He was so charming and charismatic.
Basically, Lloyd is, you could look up his career earnings at Goldman because when Goldman went public, he was like 43 years old. And I think at that time his shares were worth like $160 million. And this was when he was 42. He's 72 I think now. So 30 years ago. And then the course of his earnings are all public while it was public. And it was many many hundreds of millions of dollars a year. And so presumably I would have to imagine he's worth like two billion plus. But he grew up in a poor Brooklyn family and he somehow and he's very self-deprecating. His father was a post office worker. His mother, I think, was a stay-at-home mom. He's like a pretty like he calls himself the blue-collar CEO. And he was like, "I wasn't even that smart, but somehow I got into Harvard and they paid for my school." And he's like, "One time when I went to Harvard, I had to go to the financial aid office. He was like, "I don't have any money to eat. Like, can I please have money?" And they're like, they gave me $500 back then and it changed my life because I had food. And so he goes to Harvard and he gets a job as a lawyer. He's like, this sucks. I don't want to do this. And so he gets a job at a ragtag subsidiary of Goldman. And he's like, I don't even know what Goldman is. I don't know what banking is, but they thought that I was this hard-nosed blue-collar guy who went to Harvard. And they're like, you check the boxes. Because he was a commodities trader at this little ragtag group, which at the time was considered a very lowbrow thing. And so he slowly over the course of many years worked his way up to eventually become partner and then CEO of Goldman. And when he was in my office, he had this very blue-collar vibe where I could tell that it felt very authentic.
He like looked me in the eye and like knew how to like riff on like silly stuff, but also I'm like, "Dude, you're like acquaintances with Putin." Uh like you know, like he's like like I could see my
in your phone as Puty Putty call.
Yeah. Like I could see how this guy is charming and how he worked his way to the top. And can you imagine being the shark in the sharks? Like how how much how insane it is to work your way up at Goldman amongst all the sharks and become the CEO? Can you what does that even take? Like that's sort of mind-boggling level of difficulty. Like I know people that that have made more money just building a company, but that's actually not as hard as playing the the the like corporate game inside Goldman and rising up amongst all those kind of like corporate sharks. He he's wild, but he he came off I like during the podcast I told him I'm like, "Man, you are making Goldman seem likable, which like is not easy. Like you're making it seem relatable and likable. That's a very hard thing to do." And for some reason after talking to you, I'm like, "Oh, I can do this even though obviously I can't." He told this story. I I asked him about personal finances. I was like, hey, who how does your personal finances work? Because he told the story about how he grew up poor and he's still cheap. He was like, I buy the is there like a cheaper tier of Netflix that has ads? He's like, I won't even pay for that. Um I do the cheap one because there's something about it that like because I grew up poor, it still bothers me. He was like when I uh he he said um I I think he said 80% of his net worth is in public equities of which 90% of that 80% something like that he still day trades. And he was like I day trade. I'm obsessed with it. I love the game so much and I want to check my phone all the time but like when I do research on different stocks I'll get to like um a Bloomberg publication or Wall Street Journal or something like that and I don't buy the subscriptions because like it kind of hurts me to like pay for it. And I just thought that was incredibly fascinating to hear like how a billionaire manages their finances.
How a billionaire mismanages his finances is what I heard.
Well, he did the right thing.
None of that makes any sense.
I wasn't there so I could talk. If I was there, I would also be like blushing and saying how great he is. But, you know, just hearing it from the outside just to be the outsider for a second. You're day trading a billion dollars while not paying for Netflix cuz you you're cheap. Like I don't even understand what you're talking you don't pay for for for you know premium news.
it's not a logical thing but it was like he was kind of like saying like here's all like how I messed up just like the average Joe.
And uh it was so fascinating. And at the end of the interview did I tell you what I try to do with him? I was like hey like I'm I have this like Instagram. Do you want me to like I was going to do this
Well, I was like, I I was like, I have an idea. Like, um, I can like act like I'm reviewing your book, and I'll just be like, ah, screw it. I'll just bring Lloyd in. Lloyd, just tell him what your book's about, will you? And he was like, he goes, I'm too old for that stuff. I'm not acting cute on Instagram.
That's the most likable thing you said so far about him.
I was like, oh Lloyd, it's not like
none of the like billionaires, they're just like us. But just that one of like, I'm not going to do that.
I was like, I wouldn't describe it as cute. I mean, it is cute, but that's a it's more like fun. You don't like fun? He goes like, "That's too cute, dude. I'm not doing that." And I was like,
I'll walk you through the elevator."
it was pretty good. But he was fascinating. Um, and then another guy who we had um a guy on the other name, Barry, who talked about David Rubenstein. Had you ever heard of him before David or Barry told you about him
