Kev, good to see you, man. Good to see you. Let's figure out which one... there we go. Cheers.
You know, I know the cool kids are down on alcohol, but every once in a while, I think there's a place for it.
There's a time and place.
I think this is the time and the place. And I think paying a tax for it the next day is a feature, not a bug.
Are you getting taxed harder on it?
Every old bastard gets taxed as you can process ethanol less and less well over time. But I'm cool with it. I don't have that much, but today has been hectic.
You know, take a little hard day. Take a little edge off.
And people may not like the sound of that. It's a little antiquated maybe for all the cool ketamine kids. No offense.
But don't put that on me. I try it one time and I get freaking... You fuck a goat once and then they call me the goat fucker.
I still stand by that experience when you're doing it in a supervised setting by a medical professional.
No, I'm telling you it's... You've done it.
Well, yeah, because I wanted to be able to speak.
I saw you at a party one time and you were just like...
That's not true. That's not true.
Still have all my nostrils intact. No ketamine cramps, you know. I don't even know what that is. Is that a thing?
That's when you use too much.
Way, way, way, way too much.
Oh, yeah. It hurts bad on the bladder, right?
Yeah. Your bladder can get a little grumpy or a lot grumpy as the case might be.
Yeah. I'm good. You know, I'm good.
Kevin, random show number 3,479.
Yeah. You know what's crazy, dude, is I looked up a random show the other day and you had a bit of hair like way back in the day. Way back.
So much shit has happened.
The only constant I think is like maybe like Toaster who's barely alive.
Toaster. I know. Seriously.
Toaster was a tiny, tiny little pup.
Who was chewing through the XLR cables.
On your couch in San Francisco way, way, way back in the day.
And I'll tell a quick little story. A week ago, I get this call and Daria calls me and she's like, 'You got to get over the house. Toaster is shaking violently and he's 15. He's like running into walls and shit, you know? He's getting up there and his legs are collapsing so he can't stand up and he's shaking violently.' And I'm like, 'Just flying over there.'
I throw him in my car. He's on my lap driving, you know, to get to this emergency vet as fast as possible. And he just sprays shit all over me. Like literally I heard it, like I could feel his stomach be like... and then like 10 seconds later... I'm not even talking like, oh, he had a little shit. Like no, no, no, like shotgun against the car door, like the whole thing. And it's all down my pants.
I know. But you know what's funny, dude? It's like I rushed him in and long story short, he's okay now.
He had gone into the vet the day prior and he was so nervous that he stood for... he had to be there for like a multi-hour blood draw because he was having some other issues and he stood for like 6 hours straight.
That's too long for him. He can only stand for like 10 minutes like max.
And so he had just overtaxed himself and got like... there's a syndrome that they can get when they're like super stressed out and all. So...
Little Molly's had it. Or big Molly. She's on the floor right here.
She's sleeping. Ollie's 12. It's crazy.
But long story short, he's okay. But I thought to myself, it's so weird because when I walked in there and there was like shit and like I'm literally in tears because I think I'm about to have to put down my dog, you know?
And I just thought, it's okay. I'll do this any day for this dude. When you care about your animals that much, none of that matters.
Like you would do anything for them. And it's just like... just that love. It's so crazy how much you love these little beasts. Like it's insane, dude. It's like a kid. It's like a kid.
Yeah. It's wild to think about if you really sit down and think about it. Some of these super common daily experiences like communing with a dog or pointing and having a dog recognize that you're pointing, for instance. That's really rare in the animal kingdom. That recognition of pointing as just one example. But how unusual it is that we have this. And yes, we have cats. I grew up with four cats and two dogs. I get it. But in particular dogs as like companions, co-hunters, etc. The fact that we've evolved, co-evolved in a sense and sort of co-domesticated.
Also, right, it's not necessarily one way. Read 'The Botany of Desire' by Michael Pollan for more on that. It's incredible.
Yeah. Right. The fact that we have like... we're totally calm having this 60-plus pound beast with giant fangs on the floor is nuts.
Yeah. I mean, I'm sure you've seen those Instagram posts where it's like 'where I was and where I am now today' and like they show the wild wolf out in the countryside eating a rabbit and then they show a poodle in a tutu outfit and shit. Like, all like, 'I'm going to go grab some scraps from those weird monkeys. What's the worst that could happen?' And then it's like 10,000 years later, right? With a bonnet on.
What else is going on, Kevin? I got a couple things on my list.
There's a lot to talk about.
There's a lot to talk about.
First, I'll say that lately life has been life-ing me. It's been doing all the things. We lost a dear colleague, Malik.
Very notorious, like just amazing early tech, just creative, author, thinker.
And we lost him within the last week.
Yeah, he passed away. So, that was tough. That was really tough. I found out when I was at a retreat. I went to a 5-day silent meditation retreat, which is great, but bummer to hear that. But, I mean, this is the thing that I realized the other day. I was thinking about, you know, Toaster and M and other stuff I have going on and my mom getting older and following and all these things. And in some sense, it's unavoidable, number one, and number two, I kind of wouldn't have it any other way. It's what makes life interesting. Like when M passed.
Well, just everything, the chaos of it all.
If you can just take a step back and be like, well, or I could just be sitting there living a really boring life and nothing could be happening. Like when he passed, what I felt was a severe sense of loss and sorrow and sadness. But I realized that that gap is just love at the end of the day because I wouldn't have it unless I loved this man so much. Like I cared for this person so much. How lucky am I to have crossed paths with this person to get to know them?
And you were tied in through True Ventures obviously and prior to that.
Yeah. But like anyone in general that you lose that you love, you know? I mean, when I lost my dad, like that is just a gaping hole of love manifested through sorrow and sadness.
And once you realize that, it's like, wow, I had this great father that did all these amazing things with me.
And you can kind of convert that or just be okay with it. Not that you need to change that feeling, right? Recognize that it's a consequence of the love.
It's a consequence of the love, the deep love.
You know, I heard about his passing and I want to give credit where credit is due for a few things. Matt Mullenweg, my mutual friend, he was incredibly close to him. And I'm really grateful to Matt for a few things. One, I mean, many things. I could give a long list, but there are a few. One is he organized a trip to Antarctica. I've never been to Antarctica or hadn't. And on that trip were just a handful of people including M. So, I got to spend quality time. Timing. Trust me, when you're in Antarctica, you are indoors most of the time. What that means is you're either trying to sleep in your tent, but it's going to be during the summer, so it's like a spotlight in your face 24 hours a day, or you're in one of these other structures where you're probably like having wine and junk food, let's be honest. And there's a lot of talking, so we got to hang out. And M was also an avid photographer. And so, we got to like go to this nearby emperor penguin colony, which was a once-in-a-lifetime experience. And you just sit and talk and if there were going to be any small talk, which there wasn't going to be with M or me really for that matter, it all falls away after the first half day, right?
And then everybody's kind of like psychologically naked, right?
So, I really want to thank Matt for that opportunity to bond with him. And I'd spent a lot of time with him, but it was always in these little bits and pieces. Yeah. You know, not for several days straight where you're basically like locked in together.
And separately, Matt introduced me to this short blog post by someone who typically writes very long blog posts, Tim Urban, called 'The Tail End.' I don't know if I ever sent this to you.
People should know, by the way.
Yeah, fantastic blog. And 'The Tail End' makes the point among many others that by the time you, I think it's graduate from high school, let's assume you're headed off to college away from your parents, you've spent something like 90, 95% of the total hours you will ever spend with your parents by the time you graduate from high school. And when you start to visualize that, and Tim Urban is really good at laying it out visually, it can provoke some really profound changes for me. Yeah. I mean, just reading that short blog post sent to me by Matt ended up leading to taking my family on these family trips as like awkward and uncomfortable that was at points because my family doesn't really emote much.
And so you stick us together in the way that I was together with and it can be super uncomfortable, but making the effort, right? At least feeling like, look, this runway is not infinite.
Yeah. And it's like, let me just make the effort. And I'm glad I did because we got to a point where it's like with my dad's mobility, he's really compromised. He needs a wheelchair now for a lot.
I just saw him a few days ago and it was great to see him, dude. It was so great to see him. He's so kind. He's like, 'Kevin,' like so happy and you know, he has a little cane and it was just like so sweet to see him, man. I hadn't seen him for like years. It had been like seven years or something like that.
Something like that. And I'm glad I took those trips because before you know it, you can't do it anymore. And it makes me think of, you mentioned meditation. This really good short, I'll call it a meditation for simplicity, but it's like an audiobook chapter by Sam Harris called 'The Last Time.' I think it's called 'The Last Time.' And he reflects on these various experiences that at the time you don't recognize are the last time for something, right? So he went skiing. He went skiing. He went skiing. And there was a time when he stopped, but he didn't realize that that was going to be the last time, right?
And you just fucking don't know. Do you ever try and like... I think about this dude and then I try and do it one more time.
Yeah, that's right. I always end up injured, dude. I went to the bouncy house with my kids and like I'm 49, you know, and I was like, 'I'm going to fucking do a flip right now.' And like literally people were like, 'Don't do it. Don't.' Like calling me off. And I did it and I stuck it and it felt good.
You're good on a trampoline.
It might be your last time. You are good on a trampoline. This is so weird, man. Dude, I kid you not. I had a dream last night of the two of us going to House of Air at Crissy Field in San Francisco and you were doing like front flips off your knees. You dropped your hat and then you like kicked the trampoline to bounce it back up to your head and I was like, 'What?'
Wait, wait, wait, wait. So, you know, I sent you that video of me dropping my hat and kicking it back.
You can do it live, too. Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. So, it just made its way into the dream and I was just like, 'What?' I literally had that in my dreams last night. That's wild.
And I had the assless chaps on like I normally do when you're...
Yeah, you had the ass chaps on which like depending on your angle can be kind of awkward.
Yeah, exactly. Because you like doing the straddle flip.
So, it's a little awkward.
I've heard about these dreams before. I know.
I always text them to Kevin. I'm like, 'I was thinking of you last night.'
So, what do you got, man? I mean, people should check out... My hands are too sweaty, so I'm thinking about death.
Wow, that's the perfect audio.
Well, the retreat was fantastic. I spent 5 days going really deep on my shit, doing a lot of work on it. Mu, which you can listen to Henry Shukman on your podcast if people are interested about what Zen is all about, like real, true, traditional Zen with koans. And you probably heard that sound of one hand clapping. That actually is one of 500-plus koans. Yeah, it was fantastic. I had a couple little micro insights, which was good. And I was kind of rushed through to the Zen master to explain them and try and get some clarity on them, which is great.
How do you know that you're having a micro insight? So, it's not like my balls are shaving in this position. It's something else.
Yes. This, but close. No, I essentially was sitting and you know Henry, one of the Zen masters who you've had on the show, a dear friend of ours, was there and then his Roshi from Japan was there. So it's very special and he comes every two years.
What's his name? Yamada Roshi. Yeah.
So basically I was kind of pulled Henry aside. You're not supposed to. He's not talking. But I was like... he's like, 'You know, how's it going?' Like this and that. And I was like, 'Well, I had this thing happen. What do you think about this?' And he's like, 'You got to come with me right now.' Well, not come with me, but he like got me right in front because there's a line to see the Roshi to go have your private interview where you go and like check your practice with them.
So, it's behind closed doors. You go in, you sit down with the Roshi. You typically get between two and 10 minutes to sit down and talk about your progress on your practice. And you do that like, you know, once every day and a half when you're out there.
Enough to where Henry was like, 'You should go talk to him right away. Skip the line.' TSA PreCheck, go through the free check and it was beautiful and it was a micro little thing. I can share it if you're curious.
Yeah, of course I'm curious.
Yeah. So, I'm looking forward to hearing myself talk. That's why I'm here talking to you. So, I'm sitting here staring against the wall because in Zen you stare against the wall with your eyes open and you're staring about three-quarters down, kind of just glancing out. I'm working on my koan and for people that don't know how you do that is essentially on the out-breath you just slowly internally say your koan. It's almost like a mantra in some sense, but a little bit more involved.
Yeah. It's like a question you're kind of asking yourself slowly that doesn't make sense and eventually it pops.
But what happened is I had about two seconds of this sense that there was... and this is going to be hard to explain because it's not from the world of thought, which is already hard to explain.
It's like a sneeze in the perineum. No.
Close. I had a sense of nothing lacking.
Nothing needed to be added and nothing even possibly could be added and nothing possibly could be taken away because everything at that moment was full in the way that it should be. But what was interesting about it is it wasn't an emotion. It was just like a steady state of being. So it wasn't like, 'Oh, I feel free right now.' No, none of that. It was just like, 'Oh, this everything is here perfectly present.' And it was just wild.
Wild in what sense? In the felt sense of that experience or...
Wild in the sense that... wild in the... I just drank too much tequila after not having much tequila since. I haven't had any tequila, but in the sense that we often times so often like go inside in our into our brain to try and find something, figure something out, an emotional state that's either bothering you or feels good or feels bad or something else. And then just to know that everything, and I don't mean like objects, everything was one unit of nothing lacking.
And it was just a micro sense of kind of like, oh, there's actually nothing to do because everything's already here.
And they talk about this in Zen a bit where you already have everything that you need.
So it's just they call the removal of the veil. Mhm.
So it's like it's an expansive awareness that you get from a deep continued practice over years and decades.
But it was already there all along.
Can I give a shameless plug?
All right. So you and I are both involved with The Way, which is this guided single-path meditation app which is guided by Henry Shukman, who you mentioned, and it's the sort of progressive development of skills on a single path, which I really like, as opposed to just what is the meditation du jour with no coherence. And a few of my favorite meditations, I have a lot of different sessions bookmarked and I've done hundreds and hundreds and hundreds. And by the way, for people who are like, 'Ah, these guys are just shilling their bags.' I do think it can be a good business, but this is sort of an ideologically philosophical investment of time and money, right?
It's like the reason we invested in the dog aging study with rapamycin at the University of Washington. It's like this needs to exist. These need to exist, it's good for the world. Let's try it.
Yeah. So, sure, we've got some chips on the table, but this is mostly because we believe in it. And a few of my favorites, if people ever try it, 'Whole Earth Is Medicine' is one. Another one is 'This Too Is Me,' which makes me think about what you're saying.
So, 'This Too Is Me' is a meditation led by Henry, which this is going to sound maybe esoteric, but it's not. When you recognize that all of the things you experience are mediated by your mind, right? And therefore, like when you hear something, when you feel something, when you're interrupted by something, etc., etc., anything you can possibly imagine experiencing is also you because ultimately it is entirely mediated by your mind. Let's just use that instead of brain. And it's incredibly, at least for me, and I'm not comparing it to your experience because I think it's probably characteristically different, is incredibly relaxing to let go even just for a moment because my brain is like the ultimate like dog chasing a squirrel kind of brain, right? Like I'm always looking for something to fix, something to improve, what I need to do, what is happening next week. And meditation is...
I am the squirrel. Right. It can be excruciatingly painful, right? Like meditation can be super hard.
That's a very common thing. People are like, 'I can't do this.'
But when Henry gives you permission to include all of that as you, I know this might sound very bizarre, it allows you to kind of drop this burden that you didn't realize you were carrying. So, in any case, you don't have to do a week-long meditation retreat if you're just doing 10 minutes twice a day. And I do think there's some alchemy to twice a day. I don't know why exactly. I have some theories around vagus nerve stimulation and stuff, but you get a lot out of it.
So, in any case, I didn't mean to interrupt your story.
No, I think there's two things that I love that Henry says quite often when he starts some of these meditations, which is take everything that you came in the door with, like all the thoughts, worries, emotions, things, and leave it at the door just for now. You can come back to it in 20 minutes, but just for now. The permission to set those things down for yourself just for now is such a beautiful thing. And then like the little instructions where he's like, 'Drop your jaw an eighth of an inch.' Yeah. And I'm like, 'Whoa, I didn't even realize I was...' Can I tell you something crazy about that?
All right. So, I got fitted for a mandibular device, which is a fancy way of saying a double-decker mouthpiece.
That is an easier approach to resolving sleep apnea or snoring. So, I don't snore a ton, but every once in a while I do. Drives my lady insane, understandably. And if you take the jaw and drop it down an eighth of an inch and forward an eighth of an inch, you open your airway.
And I was thinking about that because Henry will often say, as you're alluding to, like drop your jaw and leave it forward as if it's resting on a small pillow ever so slightly, and it increases your airflow.
Mhm. I mean, these ancients hit on some stuff by trial and error that really just works. It's like, yeah, if you want to have better respiration while you're meditating and better alignment and blah blah blah blah blah, just do what Henry's describing. And I will say his dulcet British tones.
If you just want a relaxing voice.
Yeah. That will help you with chilling the fuck out when your monkey mind is ricocheting inside your skull. Like, try Henry out. Like, you can find free stuff everywhere. I've had him on the podcast a bunch as well as Meditation Mondays for a while, which were these very short episodes of guided meditations. In any case, yeah, it's great.
I've been so... what's the right word? I mean, overjoyed is... this sounds too dramatic, but I'll just say happy for you to watch your path with meditation because it seems like you get so much nourishment and grounding from it. And no offense, like you're kind of a spaz. You're kind of... you're kind of spazzy. Like you get excited about shit and then you drop stuff. That is very well exemplified in like, 'Tim, you got to buy this stock,' and then you never tell me when you sell and I'm like, 'Oh, fuck, I'm fucked.' Oh, but you want to talk about hold because you win.
Yeah, you should have held. It's fine.
No, but anyway, literally Tim gives me this tip and I'm like, 'All right, I'm in.' And then like a day and a half later, I'm down like... I know that's why you got to wait. But the point of the story is I thought this meditation thing, just like every nine months you're like, 'I'm moving to Android.' I'm like, 'Let me start the timer for two weeks before you come back to iPhone.' I'm like, 'Yeah, this meditation thing. Yeah, sure. We'll see. I give it two weeks.' And you've stuck with it.
Coming up on five years now.
Yeah. It's really made me happy as your friend to see something that gives you that consistency.
That's it. There's nothing more to add. I've been really... what's the right word? Not sure of the right way to put it. I've just been very reassured.
Yeah. By you having that constant in your life.
One of the things I'm curious about, speaking of constants and kind of like how things changed since we've known each other and you had hair and all that other shit.
Still got plenty of hair. It's not on my head.
Yeah, exactly. The braids down there. Um, the question I'm curious about is I've been thinking a lot lately as I kind of march towards 50. What are the things that I've always said that I want to do that I'm just like, you know, I've got a thousand bookmarks on Instagram like all these Japanese woodworking things and like...
It's always woodworking. Always woodworking.
Well, I even have, you know, this is how bad my speaking, the monkey mind and bouncing around. I literally have for some reason the algorithm is now giving me like those fucking boats inside of bottles. People making the boats in the bottles and I'm like, am I going to be a boat-in-the-bottle guy? Like I don't know. Maybe. Like I realize now I think these next couple decades, I want to stop bullshitting myself and stop saying like, 'Hey, one day, one day I'll get into Japanese woodworking. One day I'll do this,' and really start doing some things.
You've been really good because you archery, hunting, like the stuff that you've gotten into, you've gone deep on in the last few years.
Are there any things that are on your kind of bucket list of things where you say one day, you know, you're busy with your podcast and all the shit you got going? Podcast, shoot me in the head. It's fine and it's fun most of the time, but it's so crowded and it's like, man, if 20 other people are trying to do the same job, I don't want to do this job.
It is wild how many new podcasters there are out there that they're also optimizing every little freaking thing. All the thumbnails like, 'What you need to know before your crypto crashes next week' now and I'm like, ah, god.
I just don't want to play that game. And for me, I would say the most top of mind is rock climbing. Actually, I just did some outdoor rock climbing a couple days ago and I love rock climbing. I was always for at least the last 15 years limited by my right elbow, which I had surgically repaired. So, it's ready to go. And I want to do some multi-pitch stuff in Yose.
Yeah. So, I don't know if I want to say this.
All right, that's a good start. So, he is a big rock climber.
Yeah. And he goes out to Yosemite.
We should go because he's invited me to go up there and do some climbing.
He looks like someone who would be good.
Apparently, he's amazing. So, and I'm like, 'Dude, I can't go do multi-pitch with you.' And he's like, 'Ah, just come out. We'll have fun. Blah blah blah.'
No, that's how you end up fucked.
I did multi-pitch when I was like 24 and it was like three pitches.
Yeah. No, that's a commitment.
Yeah. So the idea of having something like that to strive for, having some type of physical goal like that for me is very helpful because just not dying, like training to not die sooner than is necessary, is not sufficient for me. I'm just like, that's such a depressing, uninvigorating goal. I'd much rather have something that has a deadline, right? It's like, 'All right, you need to be able to do X.' In the case of the archery, it's like Lancaster Classic. Here's the date. You need to do this type of training and this type of volume with this type of deliberate practice.
In order to be prepared to train and then compete, right? Okay. Similarly, for something like a multi-pitch, it's like, okay, you can break that down. And I just enjoy doing that stuff.
Dude. So, let me ask you a question. The number two, I don't know if you saw this on my story list. The number two story I had was this guy Michael Eckert. Do you know who? No? No idea?
Okay. So, Huberman and Rogan, all these guys, they've talked about him publicly, about this guy. He has won multiple pull-up world championships.
And dude, when you watch him do a pull-up, he's kind of one of those guys that can bring the bar all the way down and do like the circus and all that stuff.
Yeah. Like where you can walk with your hands and shit, all the calisthenic stuff.
But he has a series of videos that teach you how to do finger strength training and I bought his course and I'm doing this right now. But you got me into that wooden device.
The NUG. So dude, you got to watch his videos. They're amazing. Like seriously, Joe's really into him. Like this guy's name is Michael Eckert. You can find him on Instagram. And it's all about grip strength, pull-ups, and he's not big, but he's shredded. Yeah. And I think when I think about like the next 10 years, like I don't need to be big big. It's probably not what you want, right? Especially for rock climbing.
Yeah. Exactly. I mean, you need to be lean, right? And strong. And that's what I love about this. So, I'm getting into... I'm doing these every single day. Well, I'm two days in, but I'm getting into it, you know.
But tell us about the NUG, because that was something that you turned me on to.
The NUG. I mean, I have it in my suitcase at the hotel here. It's just a simple little wooden device. It looks like a very large bar of soap with these different indentations carved into the sides and...
Like little finger indentations.
Yeah, exactly. So, you can use a carabiner to connect it to say a cable machine of some type in any gym. And look, you could use a loading pin and all this and the other thing and a daisy chain. But let's put that aside. At a gym, you could use a cable and connect it through the loop with a carabiner and work on your hand strength.
And you brought this to Santa Fe when we were out there doing that meditation thing.
I did. Yeah. I mean, it's literally something small enough to slip into my sweatshirt pocket. So, it's easy to travel with. I always travel with that and a band for multiple purposes for like something called DNS kind of core exercises. And I...
Yeah. So, I use a band for that and it's incredibly easy to travel with and then a handful of other things. Something called an alpha ball, which I use for different types of kind of mobility. It's the size of like a very large soft ball. And all this stuff fits into the corner of a suitcase. And then I'll do also something that maybe we haven't talked about called Abra hangs, which... so Emil Abrahamson, very well-known rock climber on YouTube. And Abra hangs...
I'm writing this down right now. Abra hangs.
Abra hangs are pretty simple. I mean, it's partial body weight hangs in different positions for 10 seconds on, 50 seconds off for 10 minutes. And you do that twice a day. And it's very, very moderate in intensity with like a wooden kind of rock climbing kind of like...
I mean you could also use a pull-up bar depending on how you position your hands. And that's what I was doing in Santa Fe was that kind of stuff. 10 seconds on, 50 seconds off. And the endurance and strength gains that you get in your hands are just insane. Your... I should say your lower arms. And it really helps. So, I've been doing indoor climbing, but ultimately I'm like, you know what? As a stretch goal, multi-pitch outdoor Yosemite.
And I am deadly terrified of heights. Deadly. Like just talking... like look, look at my hands. Like I'm sweaty just talking about it.
Dude, when I watch Free Solo, my hands are sweating the entire time.
For people that haven't seen that documentary, even if you're not into rock climbing, that is amazing.
Yeah. Watch Free Solo. It'll freak you out. So, that's one that I'm thinking about going deep on. I'd say that's very high up on the list because...
That's awesome, dude. We're going to be... Let's do that together. I'm totally down. I'm into it.
I am totally into it. I mean, rock climbing when approached in a reasonable way, like a systematic, reasonable way, not with like crazy dyno movements on bouldering necessarily. I mean, look, younger bodies can handle it. Certain bodies can handle it. My body, not so much.
I do not want to fall repeatedly from 10, 15 feet up. I'm just not into it. So, in the case of doing it reasonably though, for instance, I spent a bunch of time... I've spent a lot of time in Utah and climbing in some of the Salt Lake City indoor gyms. You have incredible athletes and I'll make that a little finer tuned. When I would go to the gym, it was generally like 11:00 a.m., right? Who the hell goes to the rock climbing gym at 11:00 a.m. on a weekday? These are retirees and moms. So you would see for instance these like 60, 70, 75, almost 80-year-olds were doing like 5.11 plus.
This is when you were single. So that was like prime hunting.
Exactly. Cougarville. And you would just see these people in their 60s and 70s doing things that I could not even imagine doing with complete inversion on overhangs.
Oh yeah. I've seen this. 60, 70 feet up, you had the national speed climbing team, you had Olympians, but more than like the young guns, right, the 15-year-olds who are doing all this crazy stuff because they're impervious.
It was the people in their 60s and 70s who were climbing every day that inspired me to want to take this more seriously. So, I was like, 'Okay,'
I want to play the long game here.
What can I do that's fun? It's a puzzle. There's a lot of Tetris.
They literally call bouldering... they call them problems.
Yeah. Problems. Yeah. Exactly.
And so there's a lot of brain power involved and also it's just to give an idea of the technicality. I mean there are for example women who cannot do five pull-ups who can climb 5.13, 5.14. That's very, very, very, very hard. Just for people who have no reference point, like world class like 5.14, 5.15, like insane, insane. Like that's when you're in the magazines. And it's because of sort of the technical adeptness. And yeah, there's like ape index and other physiological factors that play into it. But that is a very long answer to your question of what I'm thinking about now, which is rock climbing. The archery was great and the competition was fantastic. I love competing. However, archery is by definition incredibly solitary. Like you're just by yourself doing the same thing over and over and over again thousands of times. And I have had enough of that in my life. I've hit my quota.
I want to hang out with other people.
Climbing is super social because you'll sit there and if neither of you can do it, you'll be like, 'Ah, like what if you put your foot in like that and like kind of lunged up that way and stretched,' you know what I mean? Like...
Yeah. And then you can ask other people for tips like beta, right? 'Hey, can you give me some beta on this?'
It's really fun. I just love it. You know, I wanted to mention something if people haven't read it. The Blade Itself, which is a series, it's not very long, I think it's two or three volumes by Joe Abercrombie. It's fantasy novels. They're really good. The audiobooks are incredible. And the reason I thought of this, The Blade Itself, is because of our conversation around M and Toaster. And you know, a friend of mine just died in a plane crash. Less than two weeks.
Wait, the one that... the NetJets one that went down? You knew him?
Oh, god. That was a Latitude, too.
Yeah, I know. I know. I know. So, you just don't know when your time is up. And in The Blade Itself, I mean, there are a lot of... serious sucks.
And we weren't like super close friends, but certainly like friendly, you know, acquaintances. Like we've... it wouldn't be strange to text. And you just don't know when your time is up. And The Blade Itself explores this in a million different dimensions. It's really, really outstanding. I've read... I say that as someone who's read a lot of fantasy. And it just talks about the randomness of life or death and war, right? It's like you happen to like squat down, take a shit and the guy next to you gets an arrow through the head. It's like it's just dumb luck.
Yeah. Yeah. Which is a way to I suppose reiterate the gratitude piece that you were mentioning earlier. So, I mean that's going to be a tough act to follow, but where do you want to go from that?
Yeah, I mean a few things. Let's change it up into... Well, let's just go straight into like working out. Have you tried this?
Okay. I really like it. So for people that are on audio, I just got turned on to this new protein called Pioneer Pastures and it's 30 grams in this little tiny shake. It's A2, so it has lactose removed and it's also from that special genetic cow. Do you know more about the A2? Can you speak to...
I've heard about the A2. I don't know a whole lot about it. It's like the whole and some other cow and da da da da.
More people tolerate A2 better than not. I don't get any stomach issues or anything with this type of whey protein. Anyway, I'm not an investor or any shit like that. You can get it at Target or whatever. It's tasty as hell and it's 30 grams and I don't know, like I'm trying... if you're trying to put a little muscle mass on.
I love that this is next to the tequila.
Yeah, exactly. I mean, you can mix them if you want.
Everything a growing boy needs.
Anyway, I just wanted to know if you had tried it because like we always... this is the random show. We talk about shit.
I do. Yeah. There was a gym, I can't remember exactly, I think it Brooklyn Barbell Club where they sold this and I tried it then and I did. Yeah. Tolerated it super well. Didn't get the grumpy guts. Yeah.
As one might. What's your favorite protein? Out of curiosity.
I mean, my protein... I mean, this is a softball pitch, but funny you should ask, Kevin. And look, I'm involved with this one, but you know what? It's like I always disclose. Have you noticed how few fucking people disclose what they're involved with? They're like, 'Yeah, I've...
heard of this great thing. Oh my god. And they never disclose they're involved. The fact that you could literally go to jail for that.
No, I know. But the FTC doesn't enforce that stuff. Anyway, I mean, right now, like I'm traveling with Maui Nui as usual. This one though is kind of interesting.
I probably get 40% of my protein from Maui Nui venison. This is wild harvested axis deer from Hawaii. There's a long story there, but incredibly nutrient dense.
I love this. And this is not an ad, but I do have a hard question for you. Like a real hard question. And this is how you know that it's not an ad because what I'm about to say.
Processed meat nitrates linked to a lot of cancer and bad stuff. What are your thoughts on that?
This is very, very, very minimally processed. So you can get summer sausage or the sticks. This is free of most of that.
What do you think that is? Because it is real. Like people that eat more like nitrate processed, ultra-processed meats.
Yeah. If it's ultra-processed and the shelf life is like 3 years, I would raise an eyebrow and probably hit pause. So the fact of the matter is most of this stuff that is minimally processed almost definitionally is not going to last very long on the shelf.
What do they mean by minimally processed when you see like a meat stick? Like what do you think about like that versus is it the amount of salt content that creates the nitrates?
No, no, it's actually nitrates are a totally separate category. So you're looking to I think an easy heuristic for this is just shelf life, right? Like how long will this
Your eyes are going to be better than mine. If you can read the size two font on this, then you can tell me.
Give it a go. I'll buy you some time. In the meantime,
No, I'm just kidding. Yeah.
Yeah, it'll say somewhere on the box. There we go.
Yeah, 27. So, it's like less than one year, I think, actually. Looking at here.
Yeah, less than one year. Wow. And what makes this interesting is that this I give also Molly looks really good for 12 years.
I give her probably two or three of these a week. The way I think of this, this is peppered 10. So they're a bunch of these different sticks. Like every professional team you can imagine uses these things in their training. But this is made with wild harvested venison, liver, and heart. So it has some organ meat in it. You do not taste that. It just tastes like regular jerky stick. But I treat this like a multivitamin. So it's like I take, let's call it two or three of these a week and limit it to that and then the rest of the time I'm taking their other either peppered or regular sticks. But this is when I'm on the go. I mean literally this was in my bag when I got here, right?
When I'm on the go, I'm traveling with this. Probably some nuts of some type like pistachios or whatever. Walnuts pretty good for a host of reasons. And that's about it. I mean, I might have a couple of servings of exogenous ketones, but I haven't taken that stuff in a couple of months.
You told me. You freaked me out. It messes up your liver.
This is a controversial topic. So, yeah, there are certain exogenous ketones that contain something called 1,3-butanediol. It's very common, and there's a lot of debate around this. So, the jury is still out, but some people believe that that can produce liver toxicity. So, I consume anything with 1,3-butanediol in moderation.
Now, to play devil's advocate to a counterpoint, a lot of the people who are putting forth that hypothesis or claiming that's true are selling their own ketone salts. So, they're actually selling a competitive product.
So, question mark. But I mean look, you can look at the peer-reviewed literature and decide for yourself. What I have decided personally is that you should use the exogenous ketones very intermittently. I have experimented a lot with every type of exogenous ketone you can imagine.
I mean, you got me on that good stuff. It's expensive as hell, but like that stuff goes straight to your head. The one that you didn't want. We can talk about it.
You know what's funny is like when Tim... This is how you know it's good off camera. Tim's like, 'I don't want to mention the brand because if I do, it'll sell out and I won't be able to get my own supply.' And that's how I knew I was like, 'That's some good shit.' And Tim wants to guard his own supply of it. Like, you know, it's good.
Yeah. And it is good, but it's BHB. I won't get too much into the technicality here, but it's beta-hydroxybutyrate bonded to 1,3-butanediol. So, you're still getting that 1,3-butanediol, which means you should take it in moderation, but in a pinch when you want it for a podcast or something like that, man, it really works.
It really works. And I mean, I've given it to relatives with dementia and within 20 minutes their sentences have like 5x'd in length and they're more acute verbally. It's wild.
I wish they had it in pill form because in some sense it's really hard to give that to someone that has dementia because it's like it tastes like gasoline. It doesn't taste great. It's not the worst thing. I mean, I've had a lot of foul stuff in my life. I just did a shot with this person and I was like, I'll do it with you and then we went for a walk and that was it.
There are some concerns around 1,3-butanediol and balance. So, particularly in older adults, you do not want to contribute to any risk of breaking a hip.
That's just the death knell for a lot of people.
I just had to put my mom into a different home. It's actually kind of cool. It's sad, but she's been falling and they had this like new AI orb that sits up there and it kind of does like a kind of radar type situation and it detects falls.
So the second she falls in the home like they can rush in and like help her out and all that and they carpet the hell out of it now and stuff like that. So how do you think about sort of pre-grieving that or contending with that yourself in terms of with family?
That's rough. I mean, yeah, I mean, doesn't sound easy because if you like play forward the tape right, it's like I mean I think about this with my own parents and it's just like nobody lasts forever. It's one of those things where it's so funny because when you're a teenager and I remember when my dad was having a hard time standing and this was like when I was much younger before he passed and I was like, 'Oh, dad's going to be in like the thing that I might have to like push him on it if he has to sit down.' Kind of those walkers that can also be something you can push somebody on. I was so embarrassed, you know? I was like, 'Oh, people are looking at us or whatever.' And now I like push my mom with pride in her walker thing. And I'm like, I don't know. You don't know when it's going to what's going to happen, but the only thing you can do is just make sure to show up, you know, and hang out.
And I'm very lucky that my mom has dementia, but it is a type that it's not Alzheimer's, so it's probably vascular or something. So, I can walk in and she knows who I am. She can't tell what she had for breakfast, but she knows who I am, which is like, I'll take that all day long for sure, you know? So, yeah.
I know you have family members that are in the same boat, which is tough. A ton of family members with Alzheimer's. I mean, literally, I got a call from one of my relatives wanting to discuss interventions and it's a tough conversation because there really isn't much like you have to, as far as I can tell, act preemptively, which is why actually this relates to another bullet of mine.
Do you have five? What was that? How many bullets did you have?
Oh, how many bullets? Yeah, that was good. Of all the rye whiskeys, it's the only one that I can tolerate. I loathe stationary bikes. I just really find stationary biking to be one of the most soul-crushing things in the world.
However, yeah, I mean, I've tried Peloton and didn't like the ergonomics and so on for a bunch of reasons. And then I have tried very expensive, very, very expensive setups recommended to me by fancy doctors and so on which are just like too uncomfortable. Like I'm incredibly hunched over like my back is basically parallel with the floor.
What are you talking about?
And I'm like kneeing myself in the stomach. It's so uncomfortable.
No. No. I'm talking about getting on like a stationary bike. But if you're in like a racing position, you have to adopt this hunchback. And like there are a million reasons why I find that uncomfortable.
There is a bike, however, it's very easy to find. It's pretty common in public gyms called the Keiser M3i studio indoor bike. I don't know why they have to make it so difficult in its nomenclature, but the Keiser M3i is unique in my experience in that you can elevate the handlebars enough to sit in a comfortable position with a decent saddle, meaning the seat such that I can do the VO2 and the VO4 and all of that training for me in a comfortable position without compromising my low back, which has been a huge step forward. So, this is the only bike that I've used consistently for this kind of training.
And I was having a number of conversations with a neuroscientist named Dr. Tommy Wood over a period of weeks. And if for instance you do something called the Norwegian 4x4, there's data to suggest that if you do it's VO2 max training, so it's very, very, very intense, but it's like 4 minutes on, 3 to 4 minutes off. Let's just call it 3 minutes. 4 minutes on, 3 minutes off and you do that for 4 rounds. This is the only bike that I've been able to use to do this consistently. And if you do that for I think it's 3 times a week for 5 to 6 months, the volumetric changes, meaning the neuroanatomical changes in the hippocampus and other areas that are certainly indicated in things like Alzheimer's lasts for up to 5 years.
Wow. So if you do 5 to 6 months of gutting it out 3 times a week, the result, the dividends pay off for it seems up to or possibly beyond 5 years.
Holy shit. Crazy. So throwing some sauna in there and you're like... well that's why I'm doing... Yeah. I'm doing all the usual stuff, right? I'm doing the sauna and don't let perfect be the enemy of good. You know what I mean? It's like okay, sure. You don't have 30 minutes to do like do 10 minutes. Like you can't do a sauna, take a hot bath. Like, yeah, figure it out.
You know what my good is that I like?
It's not perfect, but it's good. Which is I go on my treadmill. I set it to 4.75 or something incline. So, it's like not crazy, but it's not, you know, I can still do stuff. And I set it to only like 2.5 on the walking. And I'll play Duolingo chess because they have chess on there now for Duolingo. They teach you chess. It's amazing. And you can play friends and live people and all that stuff and they do game replays and like teach and I'm learning a ton. And 30, 40 minutes go by and you're drenched in sweat. I know it's not high intensity and all the benefits on the cognitive side seem to be around like a lot of high-end hits. But it's good. It's doing something right. So I've really enjoyed that. Like if you just want something to both be like learning and engaged and kind of like having fun.
Yeah. So, you forget about the time. Do you know what I'm talking about? Where it's like you just like, 'Oh, wait. What time is it? Oh, shit. I've been on for 37 minutes. I can get off now.' You know? Like I love that type of cardio.
Yeah. I mean, for me, this is going to sound like maybe a step down, but it's like the older I get, the more I realize a little goes a long way. Like yesterday for instance, I had a bunch of stuff stacked up and I won't bore people with the commitments, but I didn't really have any time to go to the gym and it was my day to go to the gym to do X, Y, and Z exercise. And I went in and I did 3 sets. I was literally in there for 5 minutes and I left.
But it's better than nothing, right?
Totally right. Something is better than nothing. I'm not going to go to the Olympics with that approach, but let's be real. I'm not going to...
You're never going to lose it.
I mean, maybe as like a bystander like in the... Oh, man. So, I'll throw some new random stuff in there. There's a study that got my attention. It's been out since 2025. September 2025. This is in JAMA. And this is the title: 'Single treatment with MM120' and then in parenthesis 'leride' I think is how that's pronounced, 'in generalized anxiety disorder.' GAD. This is a randomized clinical trial looking at anxiety which is often comorbid, meaning happening at the same time as depressive disorders and I think this is sponsored by a company called Definium which used to be MindMed.
I know where this is going. I just looked it up. Oh my god.
