you've been fear-based and I was like, 'Oh my gosh,' and you just wanted to exercise it. Now, it doesn't happen overnight, but I remember soon after that season ended and the whole off season, and so the next year, we're playing the Cowboys. They're the best team in the league, right? And I think to myself, this is where you find out, right? And I remember running up to Troy Aikman and we're warming up and he's a friend and he's a quarterback for the Cowboys. And I'm like, 'Troy, it's so great that you're here, man, because I'm on this quest to see how good I can get and I can only find out against the best. And so I'm so glad that you're here.' And I remember Troy looking at me like, freaking weirdo. What's wrong with you? But that's what I was about.
Steve, thank you so much for making the time.
Bet. It is so nice to be here, man. Hopefully I can add something to the amazing stuff that you've done for a long time. So, we'll see. We'll see. It's yet to be determined.
I am sure that'll be the case. And I have to give you—well, first point out the pink elephant in the room. Welcome to my temple of Tim.
I love it. I love it. I bow to the greatness.
And also this has been for me two or three years in the making, sort of a slow build, because a friend of mine sent me a Bloomberg article about you that talked about the many chapters of Steve Young. And at that time, as is true now, I've been incredibly interested in people who successfully navigate these phase shifts. And I do not follow football. I have a lot of respect for football. God knows every time I see one of the car crashes, aka collisions, I think that one hit and I would be done, right? I don't know how you guys do that.
It's insane. Even now, as I watch now, I'm like, did I actually do that? It's just remarkable how durable players are.
I have no idea how you guys do it. But what I've been hoping to dig into is the psycho, emotional, spiritual, mental side of things, right?
That's football, weirdly. That's football. Yeah, it's crazy. We'll go on for that for a little bit, too.
Yeah, we'll definitely get into that. And I thought we would start—actually, I'll start with a wave. Hello. I don't think you guys know each other, but you might have had a connection decades ago. A friend of mine who's a bit of a recluse named Josh Waitzkin. He was the basis—he would hate me to introduce him this way—but he was the basis for Searching for Bobby Fischer, the book and then the movie, chess prodigy. And he was in most—most recently he got kind of doxxed. He didn't really want to be public about it, for working with the Celtics in the last few years, really with their coach. And he is a huge fan. I mentioned he was like, 'Hey, you have five minutes on the phone.' He texted me this morning and I said, 'I can't do it. I'm preparing for a podcast with this legend.' And I sent him a link and he goes, 'Oh, I studied his game. I used to study and study and study.' He's not a football guy.
But I thought you were bringing it up because that was my favorite movie. Searching for Fischer was like—
Oh, absolutely. I thought that's why you were saying it, like you had—because I've said it many times. I was like, 'Oh, that's why.' No, I had no idea.
I love that. That's a movie everyone needs to watch.
Super compelling. And what doesn't get put into the movie because it couldn't have been put into the movie given the time frame is that Josh, at his peak, effectively retired from chess because of all the attention that ended up landing on him after the success of the book and the movie. And he has navigated three or four very, very, very successful phase shifts.
And so game recognizes game. He's like, 'Oh, I know Steve Young. I've studied Steve Young.'
That is weird. That's like a full circle for me. Growing up when I was a kid, the movie in high school, and yeah, and people probably don't know it.
I'm glad you're here. Let's shout it out. Go see that. It's worth it. It's amazing. And the book is very good. It's a fun subject slash sore subject to chat with Josh about. But I'm going to invoke a name that was very meaningful for me in terms of writing way back in the day, and that is Stephen Covey. So could you describe meeting Stephen Covey? And who Stephen Covey is—in the 80s, 90s, even the—I guess you call them. He was writing books, Seven Habits books.
And really, I'd known his kids, but I never met him. And I was—I get a little background.
You had known his kids through the church at school?
Yeah. No, at school at BYU. Like I'd met them and they played football and so, but I never really met him. I got a little background here. So I'm playing for the 49ers. Joe Montana and I had been—we were on the same team and we both wanted to play and he was the king and I was this kid that wanted to—I didn't want to just sit there, you know. I finally got my chance to play in 1991 and it didn't go great.
And I always joke about walking around town and, you know, that—and how I describe it is, you know, telling people, no, I think he did throw an incomplete pass once. You know, I mean, I think he did lose a game. In fact, I think he's thrown an interception or two. Like, because a memory of someone who's great is only great. And here's this kid trying to live up to all of that. And I was pouring myself into it. I mean, I was over-indexed on trying to figure out how to—and all I could look around was everyone who wasn't—and how everything was my fault and everything. No matter what happened, I went anywhere. It's like, well, yeah, Steve Young sucks. You know, it's Steve Young's problems. And I found myself middle of the season middling around and I noticed that I was like depressed. I was miserable. Felt like I was at the bottom of a hole. We lost a game against the Raiders in front of 100,000 people at the LA Coliseum. Jerry Rice is open in the end zone to win the game and I never—he's literally waving like, you know, and I didn't see him and it was just like the epitome of everything that could go bad. And so I was miserable. I need to give you that backstory because you have to know my state of mind. I was miserable and I got on a plane because Tuesday is day off in the NFL. So Monday night I got on a plane, went to Salt Lake City to see my brother because he was in University of Utah Med School. I was like, 'Man, maybe he can—I don't know—help me get out of this funk. I mean, this is just terrible. I'm not sleeping well. It's just miserable.' And I walk around the town with him. He's like, 'Steve, I got two kids and broke in medical school. Like, your life looks sweet to me.' So, he didn't help very much. And I was like, I don't know. I told him I didn't know how I was going to get to Christmas. So I get on the plane to come back, sit down, and Stephen Covey is sitting there, and he says, 'Hello.' And I'm like, 'Oh my gosh, it's been—you know, I've always wanted to meet you.' And he goes—he asked a simple question: 'How you doing?' And I'm in a state of mind where I was pretty vulnerable. I just told him, kind of recited everything that I just said to you and how kind of miserable I was. And I got done with it, you know, 25, 30 minutes later and he goes, 'Huh, wow, man. I can feel that. Like I can feel all of that. The expectations, how tough it is to not get the help that you think that you need and things that are working against you.' And man, can I ask you a couple questions? I go, 'Yeah.' He goes, 'Your owner Eddie DeBartolo, tell me about him.' 'Oh my gosh, he's the only owner in football that ever saw players as partners. I mean, he's amazing.' And I went on about that. And then he said, 'What about your coach, Bill Walsh?' He's like, 'Yeah, he's like a guy that talks about hydration and nutrition and sleep and mental health and you talk about partnership. No one's doing what he's doing. His West Coast offense, that guy is amazing.' He goes, 'Yeah, I'd heard that. I'd love to meet them both, you know, because let me ask one last question. Is Joe Montana on the team?' I'm like, 'Yeah, he's hurt.' And that's kind of the problem. And he's like, 'Well, if you had to ask him for mentorship, go ask him questions to help your game. Could you do it?' I'm like, 'Yeah, I could.' And he goes, 'All right. Well, I want you to know what I do. I travel the world looking for platforms, companies, organizations that create the ability for the humans on the platform to see how good they can get and iterate and find out because that's what life should be about. As I travel the world, I'm always looking for it. And I'd love to talk to those guys about their platform, but I got to step back, Steve, and tell you that from my perspective, the platform that you're on, the place that you are, I think might be the greatest one that I've ever seen.' And I was like, wait, didn't you hear me? Like, bro, this is miserable.
Things are terrible. But it stung me. It like went through my heart. It was like, oh my gosh. My first thought was, I think I might have screwed this whole thing up. Like, oh, because to have him say that truth to me. He goes, let me ask you quite one last question because it's scary. He goes, I always wonder if people are willing to take the chance to find out how good they are, you know? And I'm like reflexive about it. Yeah, of course. I'm absolutely up for that. And then he took a minute and he's like—he looked kind of like—he was little and bald and like long face, like a little Yiddish, you know what I mean?
I remember the about-the-author photo.
Yeah. And so he took his finger and he kind of looked at me and said, 'Then be about it.' And I was like, 'Oh my gosh.' I realized right there that the hole I was in that I thought so many people had dug, that I had dug it. I had no idea that I dug the hole.
And I had thought that everyone pushed me in and I didn't realize that I had jumped in. And so it was that, you know, we talk about victimization for a long time because it's such an important thing to ferret out in your own life over and over again, like never stop. It was the realization that I had played the victim and had jumped in a hole, dug it and jumped in, and I am the author of it. Like that's what the shock was. Like I authored this. And I remember getting off the plane as if I was transformed. I don't want to say it lightly. It was as if I now knew if I was going to do anything, I was going to be about this. And I remember not sleeping well that night, but for a different reason. I thought, 'Oh my gosh, I think I've screwed this up enough that on Wednesday mornings when you get fired in the NFL.' And I'm like—I'd heard rumors about maybe getting benched. And I'm like, 'Oh crap, don't tell me that I have screwed this up so bad that I don't get a chance to go fix it.' And I screamed down at practice the next day as energized as ever, like, I've got—just please don't, please give me another. And I didn't get benched and I did play and I was about it and it was fun because it's like something that's true, like truly true, like universally true. When it's that way, it doesn't waver, it doesn't—you don't have iterations of it. Like it's just true. I don't have to worry about—like it is. And he said it's not going to be—like people are really afraid. Like it's hard to find out how good you are because you might find out you're not nearly as good as you thought you were.
You got to make that okay and that now I'm going to iterate and find out how good I can get.
So it's really about fear and if you can lose that fear and that's basically what you're dealing with is a fear-based—you've been fear-based and I was like, oh my gosh, and you just wanted to exercise it.
Now, it doesn't happen overnight, but I remember soon after that season ended and the whole off season, and so the next year, we're playing the Cowboys. They're the best team in the league, right? And I think to myself, this is where you find out, right? And I remember running up to Troy Aikman and we're warming up and he's a friend and he's a quarterback for the Cowboys. And I'm like, 'Troy, it's so great that you're here, man, because I'm on this quest to see how good I can get, and I can only find out against the best, and so I'm so glad that you're here.' And I remember Troy looking at me like, freaking weirdo. What's wrong with you? But that's what I was about.
And to finish the story, I think I have to finish it kind of honestly and authentically. I was MVP of the NFL that year. And you think back to being in the bottom of a hole running to my brother to see if like I could get out of this depression. And it's just amazing to me that perspective, a truthful, universally authentic fact can make that kind of difference in somebody's life. I owe him the greatest debt, right? Because you think about angels in your life or people that show up. It was almost like It's a Wonderful Life moment. Like, you know what I mean? Like you almost think, was he really there or was I imagining like this guy that's sitting next to me? So that's the Stephen Covey story. What a wild sliding doors moment, right? Just the happenstance of that interaction and how it changed things. It's so remarkable to reflect on and it really never ended because it's true. I now seek out that victimization in my life, watch it for other people, try to help because it's such a nefarious, common state of being.
Yeah, and totally rationalized too. I always talk about the entropic world that we live in. It's like super transactional, eat what you kill, sweat your brow, like it's all the conditions of the world. Like victimization feels almost rational.
Yeah. Right. And so that's the thing that I watch in my own—like I swear, you know, and that feeds to accountability. It feeds to who authors all this? You think that someone else is authoring it, but you continue to author it and don't take it, you know, that's what I was missing, right? Yeah. I'm actually—and so that's why the perspective was so powerful. To this day it gives me little chills. Like I'm so grateful because I was about to walk down a path that was going to be miserable and I would have said it wasn't fair. You know, how can anyone—this is not right. You know, I need another chance because I want a better shot and I want people who will support me more. Or you know, you come up with all kinds of stuff and that's what would have happened and who knows where it may be, but it would have been a different life.
Great Stephen Covey, man. So after that realization—and it makes me also think about, there's a book called Extreme Ownership written by Jocko Willink, former Navy SEAL commander, which really also underscores this ownership, right? Being all about it, right? If—I love that. As you put it, and I'm curious to know after that realization, after the questions about seeking out mentorship or otherwise on the plane, what were some of the next steps? What were some of the most important changes that you made that allowed you then a year later to be where you were?
It's like a boat that leaves the harbor. It changed the direction that you left every morning. Like there's an intent. There was an aha, right? It was like, 'Oh my, I can't believe that I almost walked down this treacherous path.' And that's why I knew it was true is because every morning I wake up and say, you didn't have to doubt. It was like, don't play the victim. Like start owning and look forward to the possibility of what you can—like my theology is about we're here as humans to learn and grow. It can be tough and miserable. It can be all kinds of things but that's the underpinning of what we're trying to do is learn and grow. Be about it again. Like don't be afraid. It changed how I went to practice. Like you might not have a great practice.
But own it. You might not be as strong as you thought you were. Well, freaking own it. Like stop dancing around the authenticity of what you're trying to do. And once I open myself to all that, it brings you to the moment. Like it brings you to the present. Like what can I do right now? Not what if or what possibly. And then it became a quest that was intentional every day to go find out—like it's okay if you're not as good as you thought you were. Like in fact, let's just know. Yeah. I don't need to read the paper to have somebody tell me how I'm doing. I don't need to wait in line at the grocery store at the checkout with the clerk and the lady paying as they talk about the 49ers waiting for the inevitable, 'What do you think about Steve Young?' and then waiting for the answer as if it was going to define me.
But that's where I was, right? That's before it was like, 'Oh, he sucks.' I'm like, 'Oh, I suck.' You know, it's like you've allowed thinking that they're—it's you're doing it to me. I'm allowing them to do it to me, right? Because I'm not defining, right? And that has stuck with me even to today where like it's a vulnerability. It's an authenticity about accountability. Like where is it? Where does it lie? I'm using football to describe a lot of stuff that are very important concepts, but it's like when you throw an interception. And for people who don't know football, what does that mean? So I have the ball. I'm the quarterback. I drop back to pass to win the game. The last minute, the last seconds, the crowd is screaming with anticipation. 80,000 people. You can feel the emotion of it like it's happening. We're going to—we're winning this game. And then I throw it. And the other team, the defense that's on the field, they intercept it. They take it. And there's this moment where 80,000 people with all this anticipation, it's like—like—and sports is that cool because that's—it's hard to get those moments.
Where they're like—binary moments where it's like—and then the emotional swing, like to get that kind of a swing with 80,000 people. It's kind of crazy cool. I can't believe I'm saying that because it wasn't that cool at the moment. But it was crazy to feel that, right? And I spent a long time with my teammates at that moment when they would look at me and say, 'Hey, we watched you do this and it felt like you threw it right to them.' Like there's an underpinning of it like we know you didn't do it on purpose, but kind of looks like you did. And so as a human behavior emotion, I'm like, 'Oh, I got to show them that like this was a mess.' Like you turned the wrong way or you didn't block your guy or something else happened. Mitigation, right? That's the mitigation. That's the instinct. I take the banner of mitigation and say, 'Look at all this truth. I'm not telling you lies. I'm telling you truth. This is how it happened.' Facts. Own the facts. Like—but I didn't realize that there's a truth to the mitigation, but it's not actually useful until I turn to them and say the ball was in my hands and now it's in their hands. That is the truest truth.
Again, if you live in mitigation, which is kind of the Stephen Covey—it's like where I was living in all this truth, people saying things, people doing, how I felt, it's all this, but it was mitigating and it wasn't authoring.
And so when I started to breathe that back into the system, look, I screwed it up. No matter what happened, don't worry about mitigation right now. I screwed it up. Let's go fix it. And everyone was like, 'Ah, yeah, let's go do that.' And I'm sorry that I turned the wrong way. You know, I'm sorry that I—I'm sorry that I—and so all of a sudden, it's like calm is contagious in the military, ownership. So it's like—and so I have to when I talk about Stephen Covey, I have to talk about my authorship, vulnerability and accountability for me and being—the quest is really to be honest with yourself and that's what I wasn't doing. And so when you say what did you do? What were the aspects of it? What, you know, if someone heard this and go, 'I want to be about that too, how do I do it?' To me it's a state of being. It's not a list of things to do.
Right. Well, it also sounds like you were, if I'm hearing you correctly, basically out of the gate each morning, it sounds like you were reminding yourself of that underpinning truth as you went out into practice, as you went out into—it was almost like you have to excise the victimization. Look, I don't know a ton about brain—I'm not a scientist. But what little I know is that the brain's here to keep me safe. And so many times your brain's working against you because it's playing the victim for you and you have to retrain kind of how you think about it.
So like that's why I say every day you have to keep training a new thought pattern, a new way to—and it was so clear to me. It was easy. When it's not clear and muddy, it's harder. You're like, I can't—what was the point? I can't remember. And here comes the life. But for me, it was so clear and obvious that I was playing the victim that I think for me it was just a state of being every morning. I might suck, but it has to be okay.
It has to be whatever it is so that I don't look anywhere else. It's just you can author it, you can get better at it, but quit living in the muck of mitigation, I guess I would say it.
We are going to come back to some related—
I'm sorry to riff like that. I—
I love riffing. This is why it's long form. And as a muggle, right? Someone who's looking at football and I don't understand all of the technicality behind it and the strategy, but I respect the athleticism. I look at a quarterback and I wonder if you were to try to explain it to someone like me who's a lay person per se, what separates good from great quarterbacks? Are there any particular elements that you see consistently in great quarterbacks that are absent, not paid as much attention to or otherwise? I mean, they could be physical, but I'm wondering if anything comes to mind.
There's not a long enough form for this.
Because think about it. How many very, very smart people have been looking into college to predict who can be great in the NFL? And there's no worse results than trying to predict.
And that's why—why is college not a great predictor? You know, I mean, what's happening in the NFL? That's—
What do you think? Is it something internal like their ability to learn in a certain way? I've been trying to melt it down to something that people can just grab like this is the truth.
One thing's for sure, human behavior, human mind, I don't know what the right way to think about it, but when there's adrenaline and focus and pressure and opposition. I mean, how many games are—someone's paid to actually screw you up like physically? Like I'm paid to grab you and throw you to the ground and hurt you, like you know what I mean? That's my—I'm paid millions of dollars. So, it's all in that moment, in that kind of dynamic that you now have to ferret through. And Tim, I wish everybody who loves football could stand with a helmet on, right, and at 6'4 or 6'3 or whatever, 6'2, whatever, like Russell Wilson, 6'5, 10, stand there and ferret through bodies in motion, the fastest, most athletic humans on earth on both sides and try to figure out how to—and that's why when you talk about the difference in the NFL is the speed. It's the athleticism and your brain can't—a lot of times people's brain can't process that fast, right? They were processing fine in college. They're processing great in high school, but it's just an elevation. Gladly for me, there's not a super pro—like I would have topped out, you know, but it's I think more than anything the quality—because there's fundamental things. You got to be able to throw the ball. You got to be able to—but it's the process of figuring out the speed and then—because no one's—in my mind college, everybody's—every receiver's open and the pros nobody's open. Like that's the change. You have to now figure out how to deliver it so that it's not open at the time you throw it but by the time it gets there it's open.
Yeah. And I think that's the best way to explain how.
And then do it over like every 30 seconds.
And how many times do you throw it right at the—and then just as it leaves your hand, you get just pounded into the ground. You don't even see it.
I mean, how many times do you bottom of a pile and you're like, 'How did it go?' Like, you don't know. And you just listen for the crowd, right? Because you're like, if it's home and they're cheering, you're like, 'It worked.' You know, and otherwise, you know, if they're booing you, then it's bad. So I think it's the processing and the anti—and it's a guile.
It's a street smart. You met people that—it's not necessarily IQ for like taking a calculus test, right? There's memorization but it's—I don't know. You know what I mean? Like it's—you just get it. You get it.
And I think there is a speed also associated with that. Even with street smarts that I see in some of my friends in business, a certain EQ savvy. They're very fast. Like their clock speed is high and I think they'd be great quarterbacks, right? It's where—that's the thing and I think you just described it very well in other fields. I see it too. But it's—but again even when I see it in other people I think I don't know at that speed if that—you know, because you just don't—you don't know until you know.
Well, there's also the pressure of imminent bodily harm.
Well, that's—I mean it's—I think most humans when things get more intense, the adrenaline runs and when adrenaline runs the brain focuses, right? It gets smaller and it gets more focused but yet you don't—you're not as aware, right? And so that physiology doesn't work because in quarterbacking you have to have the peripheral and it has the more present you are like if you're in your backyard, not 80,000 people watching, but and if like this was all happening in my backyard, how would I take this in? So, I've noticed that the best quarterbacks have a genetic—I think it's genetic—
predisposition to when adrenaline runs, it doesn't do the normal things that for most humans.
And that's why the qualities like I wish there was a test for that because I could promise you I could tell you who's going to be great.
Yeah. I wonder if it's something—just thinking out loud. I interviewed someone named Alex Honnold on the podcast before he did his big run which turned into a documentary called Free Solo, but he climbed—oh my—I think it was El Cap. I can't remember the exact face and it's like no sane—
And so I interviewed him. I can't watch it. It's too much. Like I can't—I literally can't watch it. I want to watch it. I can't watch—
Yeah. Life and death like that. His brain responds differently to exactly the circumstances.
100%. And that's the only way because all of us watch it go, 'Oh no, panic and fall.' That's—way, no way. Every grip has to be life or death. Like no way. People think about quarterback in the NFL like whoa, you know, how do you do? It's like look, you know, talk about what you just said. That's a whole—that's like—that's this is pinochle to—
might be like neurologically or genetically related. Is there anything that when you look at your trajectory that was learnable or coachable that you absorbed by watching other people? Like what did you improve most at? So there's a lot out of the box, right? I mean, you were successful as a younger athlete and read some great quotes from your dad about this, but you were successful as a younger athlete. You seem to have some hard wiring out of the box that was very helpful.
But you didn't just hit the ground running in the NFL and you were top of the game. There was something that improved. I'm wondering—or many things.
So one fundamental thing had to happen which was how to throw the football. It's not intuitive. Kind of like golf. Golf is not like you think great golf swings. When you grab a club as an adult, you're not going to do it right.
And as a kid, I grabbed a football and because I didn't want to be embarrassed, I wanted to spin perfectly. I would spin it out of my hand and that's how I did it. But you can't get behind to throw it hard.
This was not something that was like a deep dark secret, but in Greenwich, Connecticut, some people grab it, grab a golf club, grab a football, and it's just like, oh yeah, that's how you must do it. That's not how I did it. And so I got to college, I'd faked my way into playing college quarterbacking without really understanding it. And Jim McMahon was the quarterback at the time at BYU. Incredible. Like he's the second highest man. Like he was amazing. But he was righty and I was lefty and I was like, how is he throwing it different? And then I realized that you have to—you turn instead of spinning it out like to spin it. You actually go the other direction using the tension inside your arm as you hold it and then just go in.
You actually spin it. It comes out and spins. But now you can throw it like with all your power.
And that was—you talking about what I had to have that.
I mean those are those seem, you know, I've played a bunch of sports certainly at mistakes. Right.
Well no, it seems like rebuilding your swing in golf or something.
A little bit, but it was such an unlock.
Yeah. Once you felt it—golf is maybe more complicated because you got a stick and you got—it's like—
You're a little divorced from it, right?
But the fact that it was in my hand—once you felt it—
You're like, 'Oh my gosh.' And then what I realized is I can now throw it as hard as I want right there.
Like it was like this gift I had that was going to go undiscovered.
And all of a sudden it just—it came out.
Did you realize that at BYU or—
It was my freshman year. I wish I would have written down the days like November 10th, you know.
Okay. It was like discovering fire.
Fire. Exactly. We live. All I did from that point on is throw the ball. Like I just want to throw it, throw it everywhere. Throw it. And what's ironic is that the coach who was the offensive coordinator at the time soon after—because no one knew this is all happening. I was eighth. I was no one. I was nobody. Yeah. No one knew my—but I had figured it out. It had clocked in. It was clocking. Right. And so I think for me, he pulled me aside later in the year. He goes, 'By the way, I don't coach lefties.' He said it to me, 'I don't coach lefties.' And I'm like—and so I was moved to defense at the end of that season because LaVell Edwards, the coach, said, 'Look, you're super fast, super athletic. We have 10 quarterbacks. Like, we want you on the field if you play.' And so I started in the winter practices, winter as a safety in a defensive position I couldn't stand. I hated every second of it. Soon as practice ended the quarterbacks would throw after practice. I'd go throw. And in the interim that coach who told me he wouldn't coach lefties took a head coaching job at San Diego State. Another coach, Ted Tollner, came in and I'm throwing with the quarterbacks after practice and he goes, 'Steve, I thought you played quarterback.' I go, 'I do, but they told me I'm lefty, so I have to play defense.' And he goes, 'That's ridiculous. That's stupid.' I go, 'I know. This is insane.' And then I screamed out, 'But I learned how to throw, too.' Like, so I have this thing that, you know, and he's like, 'Let me go see if I can fix it.' So he goes in and changes it. Wow. And that spring, spring ball was a month, you know, 30 days of practice. He got two weeks for me to practice before I, you know, they made a decision. And by the end of the two weeks because of this new gift—
That was it. And with that change everything because I was fast, I could run, I could throw it hard, I could process, the game wasn't too fast for me. It kind of all made sense to me. I just didn't unlock that one—
fundamental piece of throwing the—
It's so fun having this conversation. I've been looking forward to it for so long. And before I forget, I just wanted to say again on a very reduced junior varsity level, but I wrestled my whole life basically. And—
