Walt, SpaceX is preparing to go to Mars, or as your shirt says, "Occupy Mars." The CEO of Ferrari says, "No autonomy for our customers." And Uber continues its eastern expansion into Europe. But let's start with the upcoming SpaceX IPO, because I know you haven't been calling me a lot lately because you've been working hard on it. What have you uncovered?
I'm learning all about orbital data centers and power and solar. And look, a big part of this is going to be Terafab. It's hard to get enough compute these days. Google's making their own, Amazon's making their own, and SpaceX and Tesla together with Intel not only are going to design their own, but they want to build their own fab. They're going to compete with TSMC. So, I don't know. It sounds like something for us to reduce our exposure to Taiwan. Maybe the government should help out here and chip in. What do you think? Chip in to build some fabs in the great state of Texas.
Well, the US has been trying to build fabs, you know this, for almost a decade in the Phoenix region, Arizona. So, anything we can do to onshore the manufacturing of chips and eliminate the Taiwan risk in the supply chain, I'm all for it.
Well, so am I. And you know, we'll see how this thing goes. There's some I've been doing a lot of work. There's a lot of capital it's going to take to achieve this stuff. If anyone can do it, I think Elon's the right guy, but it could take a little time. But more on that later. Meanwhile, over at Tesla, they expanded the service area. It looks like, you know, I was asking AI, I was asking Anthropic, they were telling me 250 square miles. And I don't really think that's right. Looks to me more like about 100 square miles. So, it looks to still be smaller than what Waymo is in Austin. What was your takeaway from the expansion of Tesla's service area and unsupervised, so they claim, in Austin?
Well, unsupervised was a let's say a fourth of that or a third of that. It was a small expansion. The unsupervised expansion looked, it appeared based on the map that it was continuing down that HEB parking lot that you and I had the great Tesla Waymo race out of, and it didn't look like it was expanding that direction. Again, we don't have any real clear data on that, but what we do have data from is the Texas automated vehicle database where they're showing that more cars are coming online, but we don't have a clear sense of this is going. All we know based on X posts is service is not running 24/7 yet.
I mean, from my standpoint, I first of all, I didn't even catch that. So, it's, you know, kind of I think odd you wouldn't just go unsupervised for the larger area, especially since you have so few number of cars there anyway. Got to scale up, man. Got to get to the 100 cars. And the fact that again, they're not expanding unsupervised to the same type of square mileage or even much larger and not adding cars, you know, I guess put a pin in it. Put a pin in them for a while until we see some progress on car expansion.
We need to see it, and there's been several posts on X coming out of Dallas that individuals for several days have been unable to get the vehicles. Here's the key thing to watch. The World Cup's going to Dallas. Will the robo taxi be operating in Dallas when the World Cup's going on? There's something to watch.
I doubt it. I don't think that's going to happen. You know, the other thing that's in Austin is Waymo with Uber, and those two companies, you know, to get a Waymo, you have to use your Uber app. And again, it's one of, I'm sorry to bring this up week after week, but it's one of my favorite moments with you when we put our Inspector Clouseau hats on when we found that a Waymo depot, and you're like, "We found you."
Still amazing. Still think about that every time I see the word of Vomo. I am a bit shocked to see the news this week that Uber is partnering again with a Vomo. That's not the surprise. But that WeRide is, well, I'm sure I guess that is potentially a surprise that it is kind of expanding to these European markets.
I think you have FOMO. That's fear of missing out for those from Rio Linda, okay? You need, you have a fear of missing out, but you don't have one of these inspector hats. And you got to get your own hat with your own tagline. I'll tell you something, based on the cleanliness of the vehicles in Austin, I was shocked to see a Vomo come back into the picture. And I say that because Moov I O, who Uber's an investor in and has a relationship with, their US headquarters is in London. It's not hard to go across the channel into Europe. So, I was shocked to see it.
Yeah, so I don't know. So, I guess the other question I'd throw back at you is like, you know, you thought things were pretty bad with a Vomo. Doesn't this, you know, doesn't this indicate that maybe things aren't that bad at that company if they're signing new deals in this case with WeRide?
I don't know. That's the cop-out answer. I don't know. And all I'll point to is that Uber is an investor in a Vomo. But I don't know.
The other kind of takeaway here is WeRide European market. Obviously, we really want WeRide to succeed outside of China into these European markets to kind of prove out their business model, hit those number of cars that they've identified that they need to get to positive EBITDA. So, you know, good progress there and getting some additional partners in Madrid and moving that progress forward.
Yeah, it's part of the agreement. It's the fourth of the 15 cities that Uber and WeRide are going to deploy together. So, they're continuing to make progress. I just keep going back to the political risk. Uber is helping to accelerate Chinese technology. And I think at some point a politician is going to wake up and ask a lot of questions. To me, it's just a growing risk.
I guess so. I'm moving more in the if it doesn't happen now camp. Things that it's a reducing risk as we go forward. And you know, to WeRide credit, there's basically two companies that are really making tangible progress right now in the global autonomy world, and that is Waymo and WeRide. You know, others obviously are making progress, but like, you know, for WeRide to execute on progress on an additional city with Uber, that's, you know, whatever clappy hat, I guess, for them for WeRide.
I'll give WeRide credit. They are expanding and they're frankly taking the expansion very seriously. You're right with Waymo. We had a report out of Australia this week that Waymo is trying to overturn the laws there to allow autonomous vehicles to work in Australia. So, Waymo clearly has global ambitions. WeRide clearly has global ambitions. Perhaps you're going to have a global showdown between WeRide and Waymo. Something to watch. Between the two Ws, WW, which one is it going to be?
I mean, I think the one area that WeRide seems to be doing better on is identifying cars and manufacturing process to lower that overall price. I mean, I think that's still something that, you know, you're dealing with Zeekr, you know, yeah, it's a cheaper car. You're still doing upfitting. We're still waiting for Hyundai to kind of get kicked off, but you got to give the kind of nod at this point. Like, Waymo's got the, you know, is ahead in terms of number of cars, but at some point cost and volume of those cars is going to be more relevant, and you can kind of see that building threat occurring at WeRide.
It's going to be interesting, but let's not forget a lot of the vehicles, I'm not saying all, a lot of the vehicles that WeRide has disclosed in the rest of the SEC filings are Chinese manufactured. So, again, I'm still highlighting that, harping on that risk.
Well, that's a good segue because I know you like to attack these Chinese vehicles. And you know, you're famous on this podcast for saying it was an unforced error for Waymo to pick Zeekr, which is Geely, you know, in this basically made-to-specification product. And yet I see some news this week, as of June 4th, Waymo registered 45 Zeekr robotaxis with the Texas automated vehicle portal. Am I misremembering, or weren't you on this podcast and said good luck launching those Zeekrs in Florida or Texas? Did you not say that?
I did say that and I stand by that. And I asked the question of how long until Waymo gets a phone call from Governor Abbott. How long until Ken Paxton, who is the Republican nominee for the US Senate from Texas, he gets on it. How long until sitting US Senator Ted Cruz gets on this? I got news for you. Once a politician picks up on this, you're going to see a, you know, what storm of epic proportions is going to emerge. Chinese vehicles on the streets of Texas. Let's say that again. Chinese manufactured vehicles on the streets of Texas. That doesn't add up, Walt.
Okay, but didn't I see Chinese vehicles on the streets of Texas when they come across the border because I think they have the ability to drive across the border. I don't know if that was California, Arizona, I thought maybe Texas. So, this wouldn't be a first. You know, obviously different rules in this situation. I don't know. I'm taking the other side of this. I think you're overreacting and I don't think anything's going to come of it.
Think I'm overreacting? Look to the bill that is emerging in the US Senate to ban Chinese vehicles in the United States. And I will have you add that as a Democrat-led bill, not a Republican-led bill. So, this could potentially become a bipartisan, I know bipartisan is a dirty word, but potentially could become a bipartisan issue.
I'm skeptical. Bills come and go. There's something that they use for their constituencies. I'm taking the other side. Time will tell on who's right on this, but for our listeners out there, send me some pictures of Zeekrs in Texas so I can tweet at Grayson with a picture of a Zeekr in Texas saying clearly not an unforced error if these things are rolling around Texas. And by the way, maybe they're going to come to your neighborhood next. Florida, here comes the Zeekrs.
Uh no. What I'll do and I will then tag Senator Cruz. I will tag Ken Paxton. I will tag Governor Abbott. And if you come here, I'll tag DeSantis. And then guess what? That's a pretty good political alliance.
And speaking of Florida, Waymo, you know, they had already announced Tampa, but they're starting to add some infrastructure for Tampa. They signed a lease for a warehouse that's 100,000 square feet. I think it's close to the Tampa airport. Similar distance to I think when we looked at the Miami depot that was under construction. So, what do you think, what are your thoughts there? And by the way, again, they have this depot. I don't know if they have many Jags left. It seems like this depot would be a good spot to start sending some of these Zeekrs to.
You're just like putting salt in a wound. Ooh, that's what's putting it in there. That's where you're going with that. 100,000 square feet is basically a Costco or super-sized Costco. In the article that came out in the Tampa Bay Business Journal, it clearly stated Jaguars. What vehicles will show up there? We don't know and I'm not going to make a prediction there.
Politics-wise, I will say that it'd be wise not to put a Chinese-made vehicle there. And it's right next to the airport. And so it's interesting. So the Waymo depot's up here, the airport's here, where the Buccaneers play is over here, George M. Steinbrenner Field, where the Yankees spring training is there. Really strategic location. The big thing to watch, do those vehicles cross the causeway and go into St. Pete? That's something to watch as they expand.
This is going to be Waymo's third Florida market, Miami, Orlando being the other two. Does St. Pete count as a fourth? I mean, it's kind of like you said, across the causeway. And it's called like Tampa St. Pete, right? So would that count as a fourth market?
If you're from that region, oh boy, you better say it counts as a market. To the majority of the public, I just believe that Waymo will call the Tampa Bay market. And they'll consider it one, but technically it would be two if they did go across the causeway.
Well, I didn't mean to offend our listeners from Tampa St. Pete. I have spent many moments in Tampa. We used to, when I was a rower in college, we used to train in Tampa. So I spent many a winter break in Tampa. A place in Florida that I have not had such a good time would be Jacksonville, where the Eagles lost the Super Bowl to the Patriots and Tom Brady-led Patriots. What is the chance that Jacksonville is going to get a Waymo rollout?
Very sorry that everything for our listeners has to go back to your beloved Eagles. I'm very sorry for the individuals who have to put up with that nonsense. With that aside, it could potentially be a good market. It is a fast-growing market. You have a gentleman at Ford who runs the JTA, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority, a wonderful gentleman by the way, that is very pro-autonomy. I just don't think it's going to be for a while. You'll probably see the Fort Lauderdale market come online before you see Jacksonville.
All right, so we got some other Uber news, I guess. This is a Reuters headline with all caps, of course, coming across my Bloomberg all caps and then red that Uber is putting 500 million into Nuro. I'm like, wait a minute. I think we already knew this. There was the 100 million that was initial. There was the 300 million that you like came in as part of the Lucid deal. So, either they're rounding up, and there's been a lot of rounding up this week. For example, I think David Richter was rounding up the cost of a Waymo at $200,000. That's a hell of a round up. That is not what a Waymo costs, not even close, but I digress. Again, this narrative of Uber investing in stuff. And I just want to clarify that, you know, when Uber makes these investments, they're not just handing a blank check over to these companies. And again, this isn't news. Like we've written about this. It's, you know, around the 400 range. The amount of money is tied to milestones. You just don't hand it over. So, and then the same is the case for Rivian and some of these other things. They're going to have to actually make progress to delivering autonomy in order to get this cash. And we obviously hope that these companies do that, but I think you should always consider that when you see these big headlines of these 500 million more spent by Uber.
And that goes into the one thing that you and I do really well and I harp on. Details matter. When you actually read the content, it says based on milestone performance or language around that. Details matter. This headline-driven media nonsense has got to stop at the end of the day.
And again, like I'm not even sure that this was new information. Did they put in an extra 100 million dollars to get to the 400? Are my numbers wrong? And like why is this new news? But whatever. But they did at the same time as they're putting money in, or maybe it isn't the same time because it's milestone driven. At the same time as people are talking about Uber spending more money, they don't talk about the fact that they were cashing out some money. And in this case, Uber sold an additional stake in Aurora, which is obviously autonomous trucking, led by Chris Urmson, who's, you know, one of the original constructors of what is now Waymo. You know, Aurora had purchased what was Uber's autonomous group. It's the stuff that Travis Kalanick built up and ultimately got sold off when Dara was stripping the company of a lot of these autonomy assets. This is in addition to the billion dollars that they had previously sold. Now, you know, Uber still has about an $800 million left in Aurora, which I assume they're just going to sell now. Dara is already off the board of this company. Uber still has Uber Freight. What do you think? I mean, this is not, and again, this is not new, right? They're just selling more of Aurora. I think when they sold the first chunk, we talked about it's likely that they'll just continue to sell it. But what does this say, I think, about Uber Freight, Grayson?
I believe, fundamentally, Uber Freight does not have the cachet it had in the market after the Transplace acquisition. Lior Ron, who built Uber Freight, resigned as CEO to join Woven as COO. So, to me, that was a sign. But the bigger sign is Amazon put out a blog post. And a tweet, I'll have you know. Amazon is entering the freight business. Amazon is competing head-to-head right now with Uber Freight. And why is it important? Amazon has one of the most sophisticated, if not the most sophisticated, freight networks in the world. And then, if you want to put icing on the cake, FedEx Freight, now spun out of FedEx, now a new publicly traded entity. The new CEO of FedEx Freight, John Smith, no relation to the late Fred Smith, came out and said autonomous trucks are ready for primetime. Again, another logistical powerhouse. So, you have FedEx Freight and Amazon Freight that are going after Uber Freight. You've got an issue there.
So, Amazon's a big company. It feels like I meet someone and they're like, "I'm the head of autonomy." And the other person's like, "I'm the head of autonomy." And then it's like it's different sectors, like whether they're managing partnerships or the internal autonomy, whether it's like sidewalk autonomy or drone autonomy or trucking autonomy. My question that I'm getting to is this. They went out of the way to buy Zoox when basically, I think that company was in trouble. That company is not going well, let's call it, right? Why is it that Amazon has not purchased a Zoox-like in the trucking world? Like the synergies for what they're doing and now that you're mentioning this freight side of things, why wouldn't they be, I mean, I know they've tried partnerships with a number of companies. I think they ran some trucks for Plus for a while. I think they've done maybe some stuff with Aurora or at least talked to them. Like, why aren't they just owning this space? And is the reason perhaps that there's some internal development that we're going to find out about?
I forget, way back in the day they did a deal with Embark that was disclosed as part of Embark's SPAC process. If you read the original prospectus for Zoox and read the court case that I missed, it were filed in the Delaware Chancery Court, it was made very clear that Zoox has no intentions and they have to stay on the mission. They will not go into trucks. Which always dumbfounded me. I said, "Okay, you got the stack, you can put it into sidewalk delivery bots, you can put it into trucks, you can morph it." And as you and I know and as through the communications, you never see Zoox, an Amazon company. Does it, is it something you want to be proud of? You got this great balance sheet. As for why Amazon never acquired an autonomous trucking company, never looked into it, I'm dumbfounded. I don't understand why. I can make a very rational argument that Amazon should have never bought Zoox, should have bought an autonomous trucking company because it fits into their operations. Why? That's the million-dollar question. And, because I'm getting good at this, to the folks at Amazon, please have Mr. Andy Jassy address autonomy on an earnings call and give us some color into the strategy there.
I mean, they could do this one of two ways. You know, there's obviously still capital intensity, whether you're someone like Aurora spending a lot or even companies that are spending a little like Kodiak. There's still capital intensity. There is, you know, runway to a certain period of time. So, there could be pressure on these companies where Amazon could come in right when they're at this inflection point of getting autonomy to work and make a really attractive acquisition. They similarly could provide additional capital that buys future freight miles, you know, in exchange for or takes an equity stake in these companies with a right for future purchase. You know, as things kind of play out, as cash burn continues, as we're kind of in this transition point where these companies are hitting commercialization, right at the time when they need that kind of capital intensity to get to that next step in that sweet spot. I mean, it seems like a time when, you know, they and perhaps FedEx should lean in more aggressively given their size. What are your probabilities on that speculation?
Give it a 50/50. And I know it's a cop-out answer, but I think about this. Does Amazon have battle scars from the Zoox acquisition that could potentially make them more hesitant to do a deal on the trucking side, do you think?
