Proactivity, curiosity coupled with an engaged network is a key to success.
Welcome to the Let Me Save You 25 Years podcast, the only one like it. I'm Sean David Nelson, founder and CEO of Lovesac. I do this with super cool people because I learn so much myself. But I hope the way we do it is useful to you. If you like it, please share it. Please give us a five-star rating. That would be super cool on whatever platform you're finding this.
Today's topic, you know, I like to go deep on one topic each week. Make good stuff.
I've been manufacturing stuff in Asia for, I don't know, 25 years, and now it's shifting even back to the States. But in those early days, I remember so often, I'll tell you this funny story. You know, we were working with a factory to develop a cover for a Lovesac. And this was going to be a cover that was included with every Lovesac so that we could sell it, I guess, at its most basic level that way. And then you could add a direct decorative cover if you wanted something more expensive, whatever. It was just our strategy at the time. And even for that inclusive cover, we wanted a certain quality level. We wanted these handles installed. We wanted these breather grommets so it wouldn't blow up like a balloon. We wanted a certain color that was kind of hard to color match. And the factory, you know, they would deliver this one in red. And we're like, "Why is it red?" And they're like, "Oh, red's so beautiful." And, you know, they were trying to help us. And they're like, "Why is it so thin?" They're like, "Oh, we could save you half the price if you use, you know, this composition of fabric versus this other one." And they kept trying to help us save money. They kept trying to help us make it cheaper. And listen, I'm all for being efficient and I'm all for finding the most efficient ways and you're balancing cost and retail, all that stuff, but like I always had the instinct, even with our basic stuff, to make good stuff. I believe in it. I don't believe in cheap stuff. I mean, it's our whole purpose at Lovesac: inspire humankind to buy better stuff, saying buy less stuff. And it's just something I advocate. And by the way, there are billionaires out there that have become billionaires selling cheap crap.
Whether you're writing music, you have a service, not a product, it's a service business, you know, operational business, or you're making products like me.
Make good stuff. That's what today's podcast is about. I'm going to get deep in it with the founder of one of the most innovative, in fact, according to Fast Company, the most innovative company in the last decade, Warby Parker. Neil Blumenthal, co-founder and co-CEO of Warby Parker. We'll talk about how to build trust amongst your customer base. Just because an industry's been around a long time does not mean it can't be vastly improved and disrupted. There's so many opportunities to go out there and disrupt an industry if you're willing to make good stuff. When you make high-quality products, your team can become more productive, right? It sounds contradictory, but we're all led to believe the better thing requires more time and resources, but that's not always the case. You can be more efficient chasing better stuff. When you understand your customer deeply, business gets easy. And finally, we get to the root of the question: What defines good stuff at all? You'll find out on this episode right here.
Today's guest didn't just disrupt an industry, he dropkicked it into a new era. He is the co-founder and co-CEO of Warby Parker, the brand that made stylish eyewear accessible, affordable, and, let's be honest, glasses cool again. He is a mission-first entrepreneur who proved you can build a billion-dollar business and make the world better at the same time. Last I checked, Warby's at like three billion in value and it's been an amazing ride. Before Warby, he was already out in the world helping people see literally through his work at VisionSpring. Then he turned a scrappy apartment startup into a category-defining company with a social heartbeat, a B Corp ethos, and a loyal fan base that's basically now like a movement. This man is a builder, a do-gooder, a visionary who leads with purpose and someone who knows firsthand that great ideas are nothing without great execution for years and years as it's been now. So everyone get ready. The glasses are on. The vision is clear. Please welcome the unstoppable, the innovative, and the one and only Neil Blumenthal.
Thank you. Thank you. Wow, that was quite the intro. I might have to play that every day that I walk back into home to get my kids excited to see me.
You should, man. So, you have kids. Tell me about your kids.
They're awesome. 10 and 14. Super active. They're skiers like Rachel and me. Gemma actually figure skates as well, just like Rachel did growing up. And actually they're quite interested in business and because they overhear Rachel and I talking about, you know, our companies all the time. So that's been exciting to, you know, be able to have some of these conversations with them now that they're a bit older, you know, versus when they were much younger.
That's so cool, man. Well, got four myself. We'll compare notes. But, look, when you first heard our topic for today, our Shaunism as we call it, make good stuff, what's the first thing you thought of?
I mean, a relief, right? The world does not need any more crappy stuff. And I think as entrepreneurs, right, what do we strive to do? We try to build good stuff that people want. You know, speaking of my kids, if you were to ask them like what my pet peeve is, it's actually the claw in an arcade. And you kind of wonder like why and how does that relate to good stuff? Well, first of all, it's kind of like a sucker's game, right? Because most of the time you lose. But the problem is even when you win, you lose because you get bad stuff. And the last thing that anybody wants in their house is bad stuff. So when I think of good stuff, it's really what helps us, what is useful. I think this idea of usefulness is really important. And the economy is so developed that there are products and services for everything. So if you're creating something new, it better be better or it better be as good but significantly lower price. And I think that's probably how I would define good stuff.
That is really well said. It better be better or as good but significantly lower price. That's amazing. And so obviously, how do you reconcile that to Warby Parker? You know, because you're the founder of the brand. It's been a disruptive not just business, certainly not just product, but business movement. So, you know, how do you think about that on those terms?
Yeah, I like to think that we did both. So, you know, for one thing, we started off by, you know, selling something that was typically $400 to $500 for $95. So we were selling something as good quality at much lower cost. But then I think we just invested a lot more in the customer experience. So the overall product, the overall stuff, right, is not just the product that you wear every day, but the act of getting it, the act of browsing for frames and shopping and getting excited and building anticipation. Getting an eye exam that's seamless, that's using top-of-the-line technology, you know, interacting with salespeople that are super kind but super knowledgeable. You know, I think we've all had that experience, you know, and it was very common within the optical industry of walking into a store where you're sort of ignored, or the product is out of reach or in a locked display, so you can't even try it on. And then, you know, once you do, you're constantly upsold. And that's very common in the optical industry. And that's how you go from seeing something that might be like a couple hundred to then, you know, maybe even like $1,000 and you walk out feeling like you've been ripped off. So, you know, part of good stuff is also the act of the sales process and buying something where you feel good about that purchase and you're excited about it.
I love this. I mean, you're speaking my language. You know, you make glasses, I make couches. These things have been around a long time. Obviously, we both have a very unique spin, not just on the product. That's kind of easy to look at for people, but on the experience. You know, I think one of the things that is underestimated about Lovesac is our in-store experience is so unique and now often duplicated. You know, so many little couch companies making little, you know, mini-scale blocks to represent their... I mean, we, you know, we invented all this and made like a very kind of fun interactive experience. And I think that a lot of people from the outside don't think of how important that is to, you know, our success. So when I think of your success and for anyone listening that isn't as familiar with Warby, you know, maybe, and by the way, so I mean obviously millions served at least, but there are still I think a lot of people who may not have tracked as closely to your business as obviously you have. And I think what's so noteworthy, worth calling out to anyone listening, is what you said about the whole experience. Like, let me put it this way. I reflected on this the other day thinking about you. You know, we haven't gotten the chance to hang out before, but we did kind of come up together a little bit. Even though Lovesac got started a long, long time ago, our current embodiment really got started about the same time. Like we kind of got this version of Lovesac going around 2014. So, pretty close. But lately, I was thinking, I was observing, you know, you've obviously come so far. Your business is huge, billions, and if nothing else, and I'm going to say this at the risk of offending you. I don't mean it to because I want you to react to this. If all you did was unseat and replace LensCrafters, what an accomplishment. And here's why I'm saying it that way. I know you're way more than that.
Yeah, we'll take it. We love getting LensCrafters customers.
Well, the reason I say it that way is because people my age anyway all grew up in malls that had like a LensCrafters. That's just what you did, or America's Best or whatever. And they're pretty straightforward and pretty sterile and uninteresting. And it's worth calling out because entrepreneurs can be stopped in their tracks thinking, you know, well, this has been done and that's been done and, you know, it's already there and they already have 800 stores or whatever it is. Like there's just no unseating that. But you did exactly that, really, I won't say with the same product, but with the same products. I mean, eyeglasses versus eyeglasses, you know, and but it just shows there's so many dimensions to a thing that can be, I'll call it, attacked, that can be rethought, that can be innovated on, and then the whole of the thing becomes more competitive.
Absolutely. I mean, the last thing that the country needs is another run-of-the-mill optical shop. There's about 45,000 optical shops in the US. But what we found is that what the country does need is a trusted place to go where you're going to get amazing quality at a fair price and incredible customer service. So, you know, now you walk into an optical shop and maybe you see glasses on shelves at eye level. This is going to sound crazy, but we were one of the first to do that. And it was just because as outsiders, we looked at this category and walking into an optical shop, the glasses were, you know, behind the counter, out of reach, or in a locked glass display. You know, I think a lot of these sole proprietors were worried that people are going to steal frames. Speaking of which, like nobody steals prescription frames. And of course, what do people want to do as soon as they see a pair of glasses? They want to grab them and put them on. And then they want to look at themselves in the mirror. So, we started experimenting. Okay, well, what if we put glasses on shelves? What if they were at eye level? What if there was only three or four across so it would be easier to choose? What if you had full-length mirrors instead of small, you know, vanity mirrors? Right. It's just taking a more careful look at the process and that just you can make anything better. And then you layer on, okay, we're going to cut out the middleman because we're going to design the product ourselves, produce it, and sell directly to customers. Suddenly we could sell, you know, a $500 product at $95. And, you know, that was just because we were cutting out the middleman. So, to your point, just because an industry's been around a long time doesn't mean that it can't be, you know, radically improved for the customer.
Yeah. I mean, and you know, there probably isn't a better example than Warby Parker for this topic. And it's really great for anyone contemplating their path to reflect on because whether it's tacos or socks, you know, there's just endless opportunity. So, I want to come back to something you said, you know, right out of the gate, about usefulness. It's so cool to hear you use that word because I try and use that word all the time. I don't try. I guess I just find myself using that word all the time myself.
It's a great word. It's also super underused.
And it's so funny because I share it. I love that you lead off with the claw because there's nothing that annoys me more, and this is going to sound like the snobby thing, but I'm going to say it anyway. It happened yesterday. There's nothing that annoys me more than getting a bunch of swag. Like I get swag from companies that send me stuff, you know, they want me and it's just whatever. It's something with their logo on it. And I don't mean to sound like a snob. I just, the stuff in my life, I'm very thoughtful about stuff. I mean, if you understand Lovesac, right? Our stated purpose is to inspire humankind to buy better stuff, saying buy less stuff. And our couches do that, right? Like you can have them forever. You can add to them, upgrade them, change the cover. We've designed them not just to last a long time, but to evolve as styles change, whatever, so that you really, if you choose to, you can have it forever. So, because that's so core to me, I'm very intentional about the stuff I have in my life. And it's like, if I needed another t-shirt, first of all, it'd be black because that's the only t-shirt I own. But secondly, I just, I would choose it, right? Because if I don't, now I have to feel obligated to like wear it or whatever. And it doesn't, just a t-shirt, the claw machine stuff, just all the stuff. And I really, I think that our generation has just been lulled into this disposable, overconsumption, disgusting rhythm that we didn't even mean to fall into. It's just been like thrust upon us completely. And to your point, if you're going to make swag, it better be good and it better be differentiated because otherwise it immediately gets given away or thrown out.
Yeah. And so yeah, and I have in fairness gotten a few swag pieces, call it that, I do utilize, but because they were created in good taste, like the placement of the logo, the size of the logo, the item itself. And that's my point and your point, right? And that's the ethos that we're talking about is just make good stuff. Like if you find, if you're in a position where you get to make something, whether it's a giveaway t-shirt or your product, you will never go wrong by making good stuff. And I was reflecting on this, me probably the best example of swag is Bloomberg Philanthropies. One of the biggest, best nonprofits in the country. They do a lot of funding around public health to reduce smoking. They do a lot of funding around reducing mortality, particularly around like auto accidents, which is like one of the number one killers across the world. We've partnered with them to help make glasses more available to the billion people that don't have access to it. But their swag is umbrellas, high-quality umbrellas. And every time I go to their office, I'm so excited because I know I'm going to get a great umbrella that I'm actually going to use. And like that's super useful because everybody has these crappy umbrellas that break and then you're screwed when you're getting soaking wet.
And I'm curious, is the umbrella symbolic? Is it symbolic to them as well somehow? How do they think about that?
I think it goes back down to the founder, Mike Bloomberg, and, you know, just being a New Yorker and you walk around a lot in the rain and you have those small crappy basically disposable black umbrellas that break, that flip upwards. And it's like there has to be a better way here. I mean, this could have been a business on its own, right? But, yeah, it just...
There you go. I mean, that took energy and thought and it came from a real place, you know, not random, not like, oh, you know, we need an item, another coffee mug or another, you know. And that's my point, and it's so cool coming from there because that's a service business or organization, right? But they're making a product even if it's just swag. And I think like all of us get the chance to make good stuff and it doesn't have to just be stuff. You know, we could talk about it and I mean you've already touched on it. Your business, I would say as an observer, is 50/50, you know, like yeah, you're in the real product business, but half of your existence I would credit to a great experience, service, the intangible. Is that fair?
Maybe more. Maybe it's 70/30, I don't know. But yeah, I think that's worth reflecting on, you know.
Definitely. You know, as when we started, right, we started purely online. And one of the things that we launched with was a home try-on program where we'd ship people five pairs of glasses. They had five days to try it on at home. But to your point, that was a service. But it was based on a consumer insight that people wanted to try on glasses and they wanted it to be as easy as possible. Now, we've since sunsetted that home try-on program, but that was because we were able to replace it with something even easier and more convenient for customers. And that is, you know, almost 350 stores. So, there's, you know, a store within like, you know, 50 minutes of somebody's home. Or our virtual try-on, which was the first true-to-scale virtual try-on that enabled you to try on a pair of glasses, get feedback, and then we keep improving on that. So now we launched this feature called Glasses Eraser where you can literally wear your glasses while you're doing a virtual try-on and digitally we erase the glasses that you're wearing. And that came from a consumer insight that people need their glasses to see. So, you know, if you're going to shop for something, you got to know how you look in it. But I think, you know, the concept of good stuff is that the good and the threshold for good only gets higher with time as people's expectations rise, especially as brands like Lovesac and Warby set those expectations for customers. So you got to constantly be doing better and better just to meet the threshold of good stuff.
Oh, I love it. Yeah, we just launched a recliner that's instantly become a massive part of our business because, and it took us more than, you know, two or three years of engineering. And it sounds dumb because obviously recliners have been around a long time, but in our, I mean, this thing has, I think, 650 individual parts to it. I mean, you know, the customer doesn't know that. It's very seamless. It's very beautiful. You don't have these little scissor arms, you know, that you cut your fingers off on a recliner, whatever. It's a really cool device, but it can work either long ways or deep ways. We're really proud of it. It's very unique and it's unique to our platform, but like it's such a huge investment. It's part of the reason that like we don't just have line after line after line of sofas and armchairs because we've put so much into refining the singular concept of Sactionals especially. We have some other things and we have some other things coming, but like it's, we are competing, like it's interesting to reflect on the fact that Lovesac is, I mean, you're now probably the biggest or you're becoming the biggest purveyor of eyewear. Maybe you are. Are you the biggest at this point?
We're top 10 and we're certainly the biggest eyewear brand to launch in the last...
