I remember in Athens when I had my 1500 meter freestyle, but I had a partially collapsed lung. I'd been sick all year from overtraining. Got pneumonia, was in hospital for 5 days before the freestyle. Mom was quite teary because she knew I was sick and things weren't going my way. And I said, "Mom, don't worry. Whatever it takes." I was like, "No, I haven't spent the last 4 years getting here, creating this opportunity, been unbeaten for 8 years, been the world record holder just to give up." Now, every time I had a negative thought, I was like, "Whatever it takes. Whatever it takes, whatever it takes." And I remember pushing off the wall in the last 100 meters, feeling the worst I'd ever felt and having the American right beside me. And it was like I was like whatever it takes is what I thought. Made a promise I would never race like that again though because it was just it was the wrong sort of pain to have to push through. Even in your greatest adversity, you can still do amazing things if you really want it bad enough. Yeah.
Hello everyone. Today on Get Harder, I have one of the world's greatest ever swimmers and obviously a very disciplined person, Mr. Grant Hackett. Welcome, my friend.
Thanks for having me, Nick. Appreciate it.
Mate, I ask all ex and current athletes, what is your resting heart rate?
Oh, it's it's different now to than what it used to be. So, now I wear my Whoop. It's it's probably only low 50s, but I could be in the water when I was swimming even after a warm up and I could get my heart rate down to like 32. I remember just having it on there and having I've got bad sinuses because I'm allergic to dust. So, I used to have a lot of surgery just to clean out my sinuses. And I remember, you know, just sitting there and like being on the on the machines and whatever else they've got you hooked up to and you see my heart rate and I was sitting there at like 34, 35. So slowly went up I think when they put, you know, the anesthetist did his thing, but not a fan of needles, but yeah, it was pretty pretty low back when I was really really fit.
Yeah, I think I think the record I've seen so far is Harry Shissel. He's got a resting heart rate of 29.
No way. Jeez. Barely barely moving.
I think the Buddhist monks get down to resting heart rate to 20.
Yeah. Yeah. That's it's I don't know how you do something like that. Like one every 3 seconds. Like that's incredible.
And how long can you, sorry, another question for you in this area. How long can you hold your breath for?
Uh probably I mean right now I wouldn't know to be honest. It's not something I've tested for a while but it was over 4 minutes when I was when I was swimming. But it's funny it's not something that you really work on too much because you can only go 15 m underwater off each of the walls. So it's not like you're holding your breath for a long time. It's more the efficiency around your breathing. And I've got a really big lung capacity. My lung capacity back when I was swimming was 12.6 L. And people think you get a bigger lung capacity from doing sport and particularly swimming, but you don't get a bigger one, you get a more efficient one. That's just genetics. So it should be, to give the comparison, about 7.6 L.
So 12.6 is definitely, you know, a bit of an advantage.
Mate, can we talk about when you retired from swimming and the transition? And the reason I want to ask this question, a lot of people listening to this podcast may be considering a new career. Um, should they do it? Should they not do it? How was it for you and did you always know you were going to move into the finance arena?
Always knew I'd move into business. I always loved business, fascinated with investing and, you know, growing, starting companies, those sorts of things. I was always very interested in, I was studying at university whilst I was I was swimming. So I always wanted to move into something else and I always had a dream to, yeah, run a run a business one day or create a business. So for me there there was definitely clear line of sight. Not everyone else is like that. You know, a lot of my peers would just be focused on the the then and now and thinking the sporting life might last forever. I really wanted to transition into a different career. And for anybody considering it, I think if you're considering it, do it. What you have to work out really quick, I was kind of like almost a global CEO in what I was doing previously. And I worked out very early on I wasn't even the best at the table when it came to finance when I started working in banking. So, and the sooner you realize that, the sooner you start making the moves and getting the experience and the education and all of the pillars you need to be successful in that field. And then I guess I just took that sort of drive and determination that I had in swimming and just put it into business because those fundamental principles of success aren't different to sport or corporate world or anything else that you're trying to achieve. They're they're exactly the same.
Mate, can we talk about, you said your mentality, so can you talk about your mentality in swimming and how that's been an advantage in business?
I think tenacity and resilience, they're the first things that come to mind. I mean I was an endurance athlete so my tolerance for pain and pressure is is quite high. As you would know in business it has to be very high and constant. I think the best business people I've ever met are very disciplined. They can do the same thing over and over again and just be okay with it.
That's I tell my son all the time. I said, "Mate, if you want to eat," he runs, he enjoys that and school work. I said, "Mate, being good is repetition. That's all it is. It's just doing it better and better and better each time." So, do it with intention. Do it with improving on something or working on something, whether you're running into your technique or whatever it might be, but it's repetition.
And so for me, I think what I really took from sport was yes, the discipline of all of the training and dealing with high pressure situations was definitely a lesson I can take through my life now. Like having to walk out for an Olympic final in front of your home crowd as a 20-year-old and expected to win and beat a national icon with Kieran Perkins at that stage.
How was that? Because I remember because I remember I was we're a similar age and I remember watching that on TV like the pressure this guy must be feeling must be off the charts. Yeah. Like how was that situation?
I think I felt more pressure probably the days leading up than actually walking out. And I'm often like that because I've done all my preparation and then you get to this point where I think if you're really good at executing, there's a point at which you let go. You let go of the outcome and all of the noise around you and you're just purely focused on your execution and your process of what what you're about to do. And I often say to people, you're like, "Well, what's going through your head when you're standing behind the blocks?" And I'm like, "Gun, gun, gun." Like the starter's gun. That's all I'm worried about is the next step. I'm not thinking about the first lap. I've already got my race strategy down. I know what I need to do in order to get the best result for the training that I've done. So, but all I'm thinking about is literally what is next and what do I have to get right. I I just don't get ahead of myself.
You mentioned kind of been in the shadow of Kieran Perkins at that age.
And how was that to manage or was it was did you go I don't care or just was it always pressuring to deliver?
Oh, it it was really hard to to be honest. I I remember this guy was my my hero. Like I wanted to be a 1500 meter swimmer. He was the world record holder. He'd won the last two Olympics. The way he won in 96 out in lane eight, made the final by like 0.1 of a second. Like it was it was an icon in the country. So, but it was really weird because I became his biggest rival and and I was on the team with him and he he wouldn't even talk to me to to be frank because I was like I was encroaching on his patch. He was he was he was God on that team. And I'm kind of the comment in the media like he's not a real rival until he breaks 15 minutes, which at that stage only four people had ever done. And I was like a 16-year-old kid. And I finally did it. It felt good. The first time I went under, I went 14 minutes 51. So I went really far under, which was I was like, "There you go. I've done it now." But then like I had so much respect for what he had achieved. I had his times up on my walls as a young kid that I used to try and beat across all the distances that he raced, which was the the 200, the 400, the 800, and 1500 meter freestyle. So, it was a really weird dynamic when I thought, "Oh my god, this guy's like quite cold towards me. He wants to beat me and he's he's not forward and coming backwards on that." And he was mentally very, very strong. I'd say probably I'd have likened him to I used to call Steve Waugh the Iceman. I think Kieran was very much like that, too. And so, very much a reserve conservative type character, where I was probably a little bit more out there and social on the team. So, I didn't really know how to take it or or yeah, kind of manage that and the media around it too. Like I remember I had this article that said I might as well be American going into these Olympics because everybody's got to be cheering for Kieran.
I think Kieran Perkins at that time, this is going back what 25, 30 years now. He was the golden boy in Australia. Everyone loved him. Remember you were a bit of a the wild kid coming through.
Correct. It's exactly what it was like.
Yeah. Yeah. I remember. And then when you beat him as everyone's like it was a bit everyone was in shock but also happy but they were in shock.
It was funny because I they were chanting his name at the Olympic trials not mine but then at the Olympics it was Aussie. So I really felt like there was a big transition in terms of that support after those Olympic games and I still had one more monkey on my back though was his world record. Everyone was saying well you know you've won everything now. So I won all the major titles, the world championships, the Commonwealth Games, the Olympic Games, but I had not broken his world record. And that for me was a big focus the following year. And I actually changed quite a bit. I put on 9 kilos, you know, got a lot stronger. And funnily enough, for an endurance athlete, that's not that's not normal. But I was sort of fighting my own body a little bit too much at that point in time and getting sick too much as well. And ended up from overtraining and probably my nutrition probably being a bit light. Like I think I was probably in calorie deficit too often rather than giving my body enough protein or recovery sort of fuel. And I think that red line you're always pushing the whole time. And if you're not getting your nutrition, your recovery, right? Like you get sick a lot. It's just the way your body works.
What was your calories at the time? Because I know if I remember Phelps was doing between 10 to 15,000 a day.
Yeah. It it's ridiculous. I can't remember the exact number, but I know how much I had to eat to keep up with it. And it was nine full meals a day. So instead of having your three normal meals, you'd have to have nine. You would actually get sick of eating by the end of the day because your body like I was training 8 km in the morning, 8 km at night, 90 minutes in the gym in the middle of the day. That was the normal training. And then we'd go through a bigger cycles where we train what we'd call 331. So you do three sessions during the day. So you'd have a 20k day, 20k day, and then probably an 8k day. And you do that for six days a week, and so you do that for three weeks. So we had these cycles where you could be doing in excess of 100 kilometers per week in the pool. So you really need to make sure that you're the fuel and everything that you're doing in your life supports the recovery to execute that really well. So yeah, I think all of that discipline definitely puts you in good stead for for your next career.
Do you think you were overtraining as a kid or do you think it was just the right amount to win?
It's funny. A lot of people would probably look at it and say yes. I look at it and say I would do more for for the reward that I felt like I got. So the meaning of winning the Olympics and and eventually breaking that world record by 7 seconds when I did it, it was kind of I was really surprised I broke it by by that much. So it was a really nice moment probably in my my sporting career. But I look back on it and I'm like, man, all the sacrifice, all the hard work, you know, my high school years, primary school years even, you know, going to training at 5:00 a.m., then doing school all day, then going literally mom picking me up, she'd finish work and have some packed food in the car, take me straight to the swimming pool, then I'd get picked up by mom or dad at 6:30 or 7:00 at night, do homework, and then I'd race on the weekend, and that was kind of my life. And people will probably look at that like sometimes even as a 10-year-old I was doing eight swimming sessions per week on the school holidays and it's a lot. But I look back on it all and it just taught me so much and I got the reward in the end. It was it was actually worth the the sacrifice.
Do you think discipline is innate or do you think it can be taught? And the reason I asked this question with your kids and my kids, I'm trying to teach my kids discipline. It's a challenge. I'm not going to lie.
It is. It is. And I but I always say monkey do what monkey see.
So I say see what dad does.
Yeah. I'm a big believer in that.
Correct. But it's it doesn't always work.
No, it's and and they are who they are. So I I think a lot of your hard wiring is just there. But you can definitely improve those areas. For some people discipline becomes more natural or the goal is just so great, the desire is so great for the outcome of being successful that you just do whatever it takes. Like you literally go if I have to train that much or I have to study that much or I want to be a great surgeon and I have to do that for 14 years all that study and then practice like I'll do it because I'm so committed to to that because the meaning of that to me is so great. So I think there's definitely a bit of your DNA in there. There's definitely the environment matters but there's also that sense of purpose to the individual that matters and I think that last one is is the real driver. But you're right like I literally don't do anything except for work and go home. That that that is literally my life. That's all I do. I've done it for years. Yeah. Like I I don't do much else. I'm not like don't go out there and do a whole heap of social stuff because normally work I get enough social stuff out of that. And so for for me I work long hours too. Like I work very hard but I want my kids to see that but it's not like I'm going to a bar on a Friday night and coming home at 3:00 and then not being 3:00 a.m. I don't think I've been out for a decade. So, but like and then not be present with my kids the next day. Like Friday night, I'll try and get home early, have dinner with the kids. I always have breakfast with the kids most mornings unless I'm traveling and then on the weekends I just spend all my time with them because I've got my youngest. I've got four kids in total, five and two. So those years are just so valuable and quick. I want to make sure I'm making the absolute most of it. But to your point, I want them to see me working hard, too. Yes. Because I want them to know what it takes to be very good at something.
Agreed. And with your parents, would they were they quite disciplined with you? And did they instill that sense of discipline or was it was that just mom, dad, I want to race, I'm great at it and I want to commit to this.
It it was quite funny. I think they were over it by the time they got to me. So my brother is 6 and a half years older than me. And ironically enough, he was Kieran Perkins's number one rival. Our same age group. Yeah. It's bizarre. They finished first and second at every level. So like state titles, Australian championships for national age. Oh yeah. Yeah. Our family hated him for a while too. He was on the dart board in our household. So he was a rival from a long way back. But yeah, no, it's it's funny. I think, you know, for for me all of the the kind of natural disciplines around, you know, doing that was was easy because the goal meant so much to me and I remember when I was 14 I just broken a national record I think for the 400 meter freestyle and my brother because he was 6 and a half years older and they went through all that sporting and training and drop offs and you don't realize until you have your own kids how much effort it is and on a weekend you want to sit at a swimming carnival for for five or six hours probably not probably not a lot of time yeah and I remember hearing my dad, he thought I was asleep in the back, but I wasn't. And he goes, "Oh, we did it for his brother, so I guess we better do it for him." And I was like, "Oh, it sounds like such a chore." So, they wouldn't have been worried if I wanted to do it or not. It would have just been it was always my choice. I think dad though, dad wanted me to do if I was going to do it, like commit, do it properly, like don't do it, you know, half-ass. Make sure that if you're going to get in there and have a real go at this, you you do the training, you do the work, you have the discipline. So definitely very supportive of whatever I chose. But in terms of like your commitment levels, that was probably the the work ethic around it. That was something that shouldn't have been challenged in our household that should be given.
Interesting. And with your training as a child and even now, did you have a special diet? Like what did it look like in terms of your training? And the reason I asked, a lot of listeners are very big into longevity and health. Yeah. I'd love to know more about that.
Yeah. So definitely when I was swimming, very structured diet. As I say, if you want to put the right, you know, you can put bad fuel in a car and it's not going to perform as well. I mean, I could have eaten anything as an athlete, but you got to burn off the calories and be lean, but it's not the right sort of source of fuel. So, you know, high protein, the right sort of starchy carbs, making sure that you're getting enough calories, making sure that you've got enough for for recovery. So, it was pretty strict on the on the diet front, but not crazy. Not crazy. I think there's a lot more data now that I could have used 15 or 20 years ago. Even all of the like I wear my Whoop for longevity is really important to me. Yeah. It's I'm I'm only four years younger than my natural natural age and my chairman's like eight years younger. So he gives that to me. So
Um I I I'm not too bad. I'm not too bad. I'm probably a little bit less than I should be. I'm definitely more six and a bit hours probably through the week. My wife is amazing. She lets me sleep in on the weekends. Even if I've been traveling to get my recovery and like some sometimes like I really need the recovery and I can do up to like I think a couple of weeks ago I did nine hours and 53 minutes. So I was like I was feeling a bit run down at that point in time. So I don't sleep as well as I like but it's I think it's because I don't wind down well enough in my protocols or Yeah. Like I try and put it down but I I I lack a bit of discipline around the work. Yeah. So, and and I just I enjoy it. Like I really enjoy it. Like I People say, you know, do you you know, on holidays checking your emails and stuff like that. Like I like knowing what's going on in the business. Like I'm interested. I'm addicted to it. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm like I'm I'm that into it. It's not a job. It's actually I want to do this. So yeah. So I think my disciplines around those sorts of things could be better to to drive my, you know, better sleep outcomes. But definitely with the Whoop, it does create a bit more discipline for you because you're getting data, right? And what gets measured gets managed in my view. Correct. The issue I had with wearing an Oura ring, which is very similar to a Whoop, is it started to give me anxiety.
Because if it wasn't perfect sleep score, which it wasn't for me because like you I'm on my phone before bed.
Blah blah blah. And I was in the 70s and 80s. I'm like, this is And then it started I started getting PTSD from it. So I actually had to get rid of it.
I'm with you measure and track, but I'm like you also need to find the balance between being not having anxiety and living well.
Yeah, I I totally agree. So, I won't check it if I've had a bad night's sleep or if I've got something big on that day and it could rattle me because I'm like, if I'm in the red zone for, you know, the listeners, the the Whoop, you get kind of you're either in green where you've recovered or you're in yellow or you're in red, which I think is I think under 36% in terms of your recovery of your HRV, your heart rate variability. So, for me, I I on those big days, I I always want to check it, but I'm disciplined enough not to check it if I think I've had a bad sleep or I don't feel great.
Uh, pretty good. Like, I think my numbers not overly high. I'd probably sit around, I don't know, 50s, 60s, but I recover pretty well because, you know, I don't don't drink and I do try I do try and get to bed between 9:30 and 10. Like, I'm pretty pretty consistent.
That's reasonable. That's great.
Yeah. In saying that, I didn't leave the office one night this week until 11:30, 10:30, sorry. I got home at about, you know, just before 11:30. So, for for me, I try and discipline a lot of those things like I take all of my longevity stuff. I take, you know, all of my vitamins and tablets and mixers and, you know, my wife's very into it, too. So, very similar to you, I I'm really trying to look at how do I actually get the edge all the time and and fitness is a big part of that. And I think for me, probably 12 months ago, I was so busy that I wasn't doing the consistency of routine around my exercise. And it wasn't good for my mental health. And and for me, exercise is great for your physique, but it's even better for your mental health. So, I've really got to keep that discipline because it actually makes me a much better performer and a much happier person.
Yeah. I think I choose exercising over a board meeting. So, I would move meetings just so I can exercise in the morning because it's so important.
Can you talk about your supplement regime?
Yeah. Yeah, sure. I would I have a longevity mix. I couldn't tell you all the details of what's in everything because my wife helps me with a lot of it. I would then if I'm I always have creatine each day even if I'm not working out. So I have beta-alanine before a workout. I would have glutamine each day as well. I have IM8 is the one that my wife gives to me to have at work.
