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Arthur Brooks
Professor, Vanderbilt University; Senior Fellow, Harvard Business School, Vanderbilt University

Harvard's Arthur Brooks: Happiness is not a societal phenomenon, but an individual one

📅 Oct 30, 2025 CNBC Television 13 MIN 40928 VIEWS 59 SEGMENTS · 2 SPEAKERS
Arthur Brooks, Harvard University professor, ‘Office Hours With Arthur Brooks’ podcast host and ‘The Happiness Files’ author, joins 'Squawk Box' to discuss the keys to happiness, mood of the nation, impact of AI on happiness,

Questions asked in this interview

10
  1. 0:00Our next guest is going to be weighing in on the mood of the nation amid the government shutdown, AI-driven layoffs, maybe a little bit of New York City, capitalism versus socialism. Want to get to?
  2. 4:45What do you think is happening here?
  3. 6:59And you'd come in and you'd say at some point the country is going to turn. What is the turn?
  4. 7:28What was the happiness index then?
  5. 7:34Are you telling me it's going to be a long time?
  6. 10:05Are you a fan of therapy?
  7. 11:57You're a podcaster now. You happy about that?
  8. 12:36Can you do that morning routine?
  9. 12:48That's a game changer, isn't it?
  10. 13:11Did you do that this morning before you came here?
Host 0:00 ↗
Our next guest is going to be weighing in on the mood of the nation amid the government shutdown, AI-driven layoffs, maybe a little bit of New York City, capitalism versus socialism. Want to get to?
There you go. You always keep us happy. Harvard professor Arthur Brooks, he hosts the podcast Office Hours with Arthur Brooks. It is new and you got to check it out if you haven't already. His latest book is called The Happiness Files. It of course is a New York Times bestseller and we love having you here because you make us happy.
Arthur Brooks 0:27 ↗
Well, thank you and congratulations to you in 1929. It's top in the charts, man.
Host 0:32 ↗
We're trying to be happy. It's wonderful. Trying to be happy. Reminding us of history. We talked about actually what it means though to be happy. And actually that the journey of a project is actually what makes you happier than the success. Because I was saying to him that last week even though the thing had done very well on the list, I said oddly I didn't actually feel as happy as I thought it would be. It was a surprise.
Arthur Brooks 0:57 ↗
That's called the arrival fallacy. I was alone. I was in a hotel in Richmond, Virginia when I got on the New York Times bestseller list and a friend of mine called and said, 'I imagine you're so happy.' And I said, I almost feel relieved and in truth a little lonely because I was by myself in this hotel in the middle of Richmond.
Host 1:19 ↗
Hotel in Richmond. And then so I was talking to him last night about what it means to be happy and he said it's not about evil arrival.
Arthur Brooks 1:26 ↗
It's not, it's not every, you know, this is a show watched by some of the most powerful people in business. They're the best show for if you're a CEO to watch, of course. And everybody watching this show knows that if you're living for the arrival at the goal, you're fooling yourself. Now, many people watching us, they have a problem. It's called success addiction. That usually starts when you're a kid and you get, you know, rewarded and you get attention from grown-ups because you do these amazing things. And then you start achieving and achieving and you start to really get your sense of reward from getting these accolades. And so you do well in school and then you go on to get these really good jobs. But the problem with all that is not just workaholism. It's based on this idea that you're finally going to arrive and then the bliss is going to be constant. And that's wrong. This is one of the reasons that Olympic athletes typically have a clinical depression after they win their gold. It's even worse if you win the silver by the way because you're thinking about the gold for the rest of your life. And so the important thing to understand is you got to build your life so that you're enjoying the journey all along the way.
Host 2:23 ↗
And it's not just enjoying the journey. I think it's also having gratitude. I was reading something recently that said happiness is a compilation of gratitude minus envy. Yeah. So you have to be happy with who you are, what you have and stop comparing yourself.
Arthur Brooks 2:42 ↗
And that's a hard thing to do. We're evolved as a species. Homo sapiens has evolved to be ungrateful, suspicious, hostile, and afraid. And the reason is because in the place 250,000 years ago, our ancestors passed on their genes because of their negative emotions, not because of their positive emotions. You have to make an effort to be grateful. I mean, look, I study this stuff. I'm a professor of this stuff and I found myself two weeks ago saying, you know, first class on United Airlines has really gone downhill. What's wrong with me? It's like I'm such an ungrateful wretch. And the reason is because of my genetics. I'm designed to be ungrateful. And so everybody watching us, not everybody, but most people watching us have really charmed lives. They have really good lives and their spouses always tell them, 'Why don't you stop and smell the roses?' I bet you, Andrew, that your wife is like, 'Andrew, why can't you stop? Can't you just stop and enjoy?'
Host 3:34 ↗
This is so, what's so interesting though about, by the way, we have so many, as you mentioned, super successful people who watch this broadcast who have gotten to the top of the mountain. They are at the top of the mountain and for whatever reason instead of just skiing down the mountain and saying I got there, they want to stay there. They want to go. They look up. They see another mountain. There's got to be another mountain.
Arthur Brooks 3:55 ↗
Of course.
Host 3:56 ↗
So what's that about?
Arthur Brooks 3:57 ↗
That's all about the fact that your rewards come from winning. They come from winning the next thing. That's what we're built for, progress.
Host 4:05 ↗
That's an addiction.
Arthur Brooks 4:06 ↗
It is. But it's also really how we're built. I mean it's funny. You know, there's a big mystery in the diet literature about why diets don't work. 95% of diets approximately you gain all the weight back even though you lose the weight in the first place. The reason is because all of the gratification in a diet comes from the scale going down each day, right? And then your reward for hitting your goal is never getting to eat what you like for the rest of your life. Congratulations. Arriving at a goal is deeply, deeply unsatisfying. And that's it. It freaks people out. You know, you get the corner office, you're the CEO, and you get all the headache of being the CEO, but you can't actually achieve that thing anymore, that you're not going toward your goal anymore, and that's a problem for happiness.
Host 4:45 ↗
I got a different one for you. I don't know if you see on the screen here, we have a title. It says Arthur Brooks on Mood of Nations. All right. All right. It doesn't feel like the nation's that happy. Yeah. No, it feels like there is a game of chicken going on as it relates to what's happening with government shutdowns. There's polarization. There's questions by the way even now about capitalism, socialism, what system's working for people in their own happiness. What do you think is happening here?
Arthur Brooks 5:13 ↗
So we have two problems with happiness. Happiness has been gradually declining in the United States since about 1990. So we're, you know, 35 years in on a gradual decline. That's the happiness climate problem. And it has to do with people are less likely to practice their religion. They're less likely to get married and have children. They're less likely to have close friends. And they're less likely to actually see their work as a calling than they ever did in the past. And the four habits of the happiest people are faith, family, friends, and work. Those are the big four. And you and I have talked about, we've talked about this on the show four or five times. But then there's the storms, the weather of happiness. And this is something we really have to grapple with. Technology has changed the weather of happiness.
Host 5:50 ↗
You're talking about this thing that we're all addicted to.
Arthur Brooks 5:52 ↗
I've just finished a book. It's coming out in March. The first stop, you know, when this thing comes out in March is we'll be talking about this and how we've changed our brains with the misuse of technology, that we're actually using the wrong hemisphere of our brain all the time where we can't actually apprehend and understand the meaning of our lives, which is horrible.
Host 6:09 ↗
What hemisphere are we?
Arthur Brooks 6:11 ↗
Right. The left hemisphere of the brain is the things and tasks. The right hemisphere is the mystery and the meaning. Yeah. And we need to be living in real life, in real love relationships and having metaphysical experiences such that we can understand the meaning of our lives. But the more time that we're glued to our devices using technology, the more that we're relegating ourselves to the wrong side of the brain. Political polarization is another thing that's actually just ripping us apart. You know, we're being effectively manipulated by the 5% extrinsic margins in politics who want us to fight each other. And that kind of polarization is really hurting the mood of the nation a lot. We actually need a rebellion of people who want to be happier, rebelling against their own side, whatever that side happens to be. And that's a hard thing to do. This can persist for a long time. It won't persist forever, but it's a hard thing. We need to do it.
Host 6:59 ↗
You have been preaching an almost optimistic approach to our country for a long time. I feel like we've known each other for 15 years. And you'd come in and you'd say at some point the country is going to turn. What is the turn?
Arthur Brooks 7:14 ↗
Well, the turn actually, these turns in history, as you know, and I'm not a historian, but what you do find is the mood of a nation tends to follow 50-year cycles. That's generally the case. And 2022 looked an awful lot like 1972.
Host 7:28 ↗
1972. Radical. Wait a second. Wait a second. What was the happiness index then?
Arthur Brooks 7:33 ↗
Yeah, it was very low.
Host 7:34 ↗
Are you telling me it's going to be a long time?
Arthur Brooks 7:36 ↗
Yeah, it's going to be a long time. But here's the good news, that we tend to actually have sort of an apogee when we get in the 25-year mark. So it's like it's...
Host 7:43 ↗
Actually I'm happy now.
Arthur Brooks 7:44 ↗
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, and this, but this is a bigger, this is a broader point. Happiness is not a societal phenomenon. It's an individual phenomenon. And so each person watching us can say, ah, the mood of the nation, it's all screwed up. You know, New York City is going to have a socialist mayor and or I don't like the president of the United States or whatever they're talking about. You want to fix that? Pay attention to your relationship with the divine. Go hang out with your kids. Go make better friends.
Host 8:09 ↗
Okay, but let me throw a new element into the mix that did not exist literally 36 months ago.

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APA

Brooks, A. (2025, October 30). Harvard's Arthur Brooks: Happiness is not a societal phenomenon, but an individual one [Interview transcript]. CNBC Television. CEOInterviews.AI. https://ceointerviews.ai/interview/3048726/

MLA

Arthur Brooks. "Harvard's Arthur Brooks: Happiness is not a societal phenomenon, but an individual one." CNBC Television, 30 Oct. 2025. Transcript, CEOInterviews.AI, https://ceointerviews.ai/interview/3048726/.

BibTeX
@misc{brooks2025_3048726,
  author       = {Arthur Brooks},
  title        = {Harvard's Arthur Brooks: Happiness is not a societal phenomenon, but an individual one},
  howpublished = {Interview transcript, CNBC Television. CEOInterviews.AI},
  year         = {2025},
  month        = {oct},
  url          = {https://ceointerviews.ai/interview/3048726/},
  note         = {Speaker-attributed transcript with timestamps}
}