There's four hobs to life. You got friends, you got family, you got work, and you've got health. And sadly, you can only have two on at the same time.
I already thank you so much for being here today. Like, I guarantee you I'm the weirdest guest you've met.
Why do you feel this need and desire to progress and everything so quickly and so efficiently?
Because I have never found that the cost of being tremendously successful versus just quite successful is worth it. I have to look for signals of exceptional people. Do you know what everyone says is signals? Resilience, discipline. I'll piss off.
You don't seem like you're enjoying process at all. You seem like you're actually skipping process in order to make it as efficient and powerful as possible in order to maximize outcome.
100%. The first thing I do when I get up in the morning is I have my Brian Johnson longevity shake, which has like 60 minerals in one.
What do you know about relationships now, romantic relationships that you didn't know when you were younger?
Around the world with your host, the Start Guy. We welcome you back to the Start Guy podcast, sharing stories of excellence with those in the know, for those who just know.
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So you dehydrate yourself actively with a sauna, never rehydrate yourself with water, and then just drink Diet Cokes.
Pretty much, with a shot of double espresso added in. Yeah.
Your doctor must love you.
Yeah, he loves me. Loves me. You know, I used to watch David Goggins, and David Goggins, for those that don't know, is like a Navy SEAL who basically does endurance runs. And he says, you know, when your body is hurting, it's, you know, weakness leaving your body. And I used to listen to this and think, yeah, yeah. And then my knee really started to hurt. And my doctor told me it wasn't weakness leaving my body. It was actually my cartilage leaving my body.
And now at 30, with terrible news, he is right. Have you listened to Baz Luhrmann? Baz Luhrmann did this amazing... there's this like song and it's one of his speeches that's been turned into some techno remix, and it basically teaches you the lessons of life. And one of them is that you will miss your knees when they are gone. And now my knees have gone. I slightly miss them.
Missing your knees at 30 is unfortunate. Have you done a Neko scan recently?
I did a... I do a Neko scan every single year. Yeah. I think it's like... I think, you know, for me the most valuable is actually moles. When you look at your progression of different moles over the years, because I've had like three or four now, that's the most interesting part.
I spoke to Shaq about our episode today. The co-founder of Neko. He was very excited. I actually have had your name come up in loads of conversations over the past five years of people saying some variation of the following: is you should do the Harry thing. I'm sure your next question is what is the Harry thing, but or maybe you know the Harry.
Well, I think I know the Harry thing because I think you should do my idea. Like if I were you, I would actually do like a consumer private equity fund. I would raise $500 million and I would invest into the fastest growing consumer brands, and I would do that alongside a lead gen content business. That's how you have an incredible cash generative business in the short term and make a very significant amount of money in the long term. And the biggest problem that you have in investing today is an excess supply of capital. For those that don't know, there is too much money chasing too few good assets. And everyone looks for the special source to be different. And I have a mega media platform. You have a mega media platform. Our special source is what everyone wants right now.
Yeah, it's true. You saw that before it was what everyone wants right now. You kind of saw it coming when you wanted to be desired as an investor first before having the power necessarily to be an investor.
Yeah, dude. I was a kid in a bedroom. I was like 17 and I'd never been to university. I got a B in GCSE maths. Like it was not obvious to my teachers either. But I think the best companies are built on the back of insight developments, which is a way that you see the world that other people don't, which is I think that really exclusive rich people will actually like being taken the piss out of slightly. That is an insight development. Most people would not go, that is obvious, but you see that and then you act on that. The best companies are insight developments where people don't see something that you do. I saw that venture would move to being increasingly commoditized and that media would be a differentiator.
And why did you want to go after that in particular?
I wanted to go after it because I saw The Social Network, and this is why you should always encourage your kids to watch movies. I saw a scene in The Social Network, the story about Facebook, and Mark Zuckerberg is being invested in by Peter Thiel from his hedge fund, Clarium Capital, and everyone wants to be an entrepreneur having watched that movie. And I saw this small scene, and I was like, hang on a minute, I get to invest in these great people and work with several amazing companies. This is the dream job. And ever since then, which was I was 13, I've only ever wanted to do this. And I feel really sorry for most people in life actually because I don't think that they have found what they truly love. I think most people do what they do because it pays the bills and I completely understand that. But I am 20VC. Like my job is easy. And forgive me, you'll have to reel me in. My job is easy. You have to find completely... am I allowed to swear or not? Yeah. Completely psycho people like me who just like it's so interwoven into every bone of my body that I hate holidays.
And I hate holidays because I'm forced to detach from my work and I've only ever been my work since I was 17. My therapist would tell me I'm, you know, deeply unhinged, which is why I fired her. But that is what true commitment looks like. It's that you can't do anything else.
Do you find it hard to talk about how you make money or can you tell us more about the business you run today?
Yeah. Yeah, of course, dude. You can ask me anything. Oh my god. The worst thing with guests is when they feel shielded and you're like, oh, they're not going to... so it's terrible. Three ways that we make money today. Number one is we have a media business which has adverts in. We have millions of fans and millions of people that listen to the shows. They listen to adverts with great companies that pay us to have those positions. Number two is we have, yeah, about a billion dollars under management. And that is basically a fee stream. And so how venture capital works for those that don't know: there's two types of ways you make money. There's management fees, which is we take a 2% fee on the money that we manage. So if you give me, you know, 100,000, it's 2,000 a year for us to manage it. And then there's 20% of whatever we make on the upside. So if we make a hundred million, it'll be 20 million to us and 80 million back to the investors. And so three ways we make money: ads on media, fees on the fund, and then longer term carry on the money that we invest. And those are the three different ways that we make money. Today, obviously, the podcast makes a lot more money than anything else. In the long term, the carry will dwarf everything else, which is kind of how it should be.
Fingers crossed. It's that you don't know that you're good at investing though for 10 years. There are very clear signs of whether you have a good portfolio or not.
A lot of... I also, I say I'm not self-deprecating. Like I think I'm a really good podcaster. I can't run a bath. I don't know how to drive. Never done that. Dude, I'm terrible at most things in life. Okay. I have the same dinner every single night.
It's sashimi from Notting Hill Fish Shop.
You eat raw fish every day?
Yeah, I got mercury poisoning.
Dude, I had to go in and have like a proper like operation on my liver.
And you don't drink water?
Not that much. I mean, I will drink like a liter of San Pellegrino a day because, you know, I'm not an idiot, but I don't love it. And so I have that every single day. And like my girlfriend will rip me because I eat it in the same way. I have protein bars and I cut them up with a sharp knife and she's like, you're a serial killer.
Oh yeah. Yeah. Like I guarantee you I'm the weirdest guest you've met. But that's a really interesting thing actually, which is like, you know, as an investor I have to look for signals of exceptional people. Okay. Do you know what everyone says is signals? Resilience, discipline. Oh, piss off. Like I want very specific signs that someone's great. You know what they are? One, very high level at gaming. If you're a very good gamer, you are incredibly increased in terms of likelihood of being a great founder. Number one.
Why do you find that's the case?
You're forced to rerun experiments consistently. If you've ever done levels in a game, you fail, you try a different type. You fail, you try a different type. What are you forced to do? A/B test. Resource allocation amongst clans. Who gets what sword? Who gets what shield? Leadership. You go to the western front, you go to the southern front. Do you know what I mean? It's very, very similar to actually leading a team. So high-caliber gamers, number one. Number two, really important and horrible one to say actually: trauma with a parent, a struggled relationship with a parent, so increases the chances of actually being successful as a founder. It most often creates a chip on a shoulder that you want to prove to that person. Most often with boys, it's to their father that you are worthy, that you can do what they said you couldn't. So, so important there. And then third is the age you started something. I don't know about you, dude, but I started selling mobile phones on eBay from Eastern Europe when we had Motorola Razrs. Yeah. And I'd sell them on eBay at like a 20% margin. Great. Made a couple of thousand dollars doing that when I was 10. So important. No great founders come out of Bain or McKinsey and start something at 26. Never. Daniel Ek, he's doing websites when he's like 11 for local businesses. Really important that you, like for me as an investor, I look for those signals early. But the reason I said that, sorry, and this is why my mind goes everywhere, is we said about kind of the cutting protein bars with a knife, sashimi every night. The best founders have very esoteric passions. If you look at like the Collisons, they're fascinated by very specific moments in history and they can tell you everything about these very specific moments in history. If you look at Brian Chesky, he was absolutely obsessed with medieval inns, you know, the 15th, 16th century. Brian Chesky is the founder of Airbnb and that's actually what formulated the sharing economy of inns, staying with lots of people in one house. Really, really interesting. Really important that they have esoteric passions that are not obvious.
Is that something you try to discover about founders through the podcast? And basically the first founder interview you have is your podcast and then you decide to invest after, or is it the inverse, or neither?
So we do two types of investing. We invest either very, very early when it's like just nothing, it's an idea and everything is to be built, or we invest quite late when they are doing 100 million plus in revenue. And so for me, we're either going super early there, or the podcast is the best way to find the later stage ones where I will essentially do the diligence in the show because I'm asking all the questions that I would like to ask in a meeting and seeing how they respond. The other thing that's so valuable, honestly, is storytelling is one of the most important skills that a founder can learn. Storytelling is something you should teach your children before anything else. Truly, three things drive a business: customers, investors, and hires. If you can't tell a compelling story, you can't bring investors on board. You can't inspire customers to switch from some service to the brilliance of Zap. And you can't encourage the best talented video editors, engineers to give up their life to work on your business and change the world. You know, I think we are fundamentally reinventing venture capital, bringing media to the very center and leveraging distribution to invest in the best entrepreneurs in the world. And I say to everyone in our business, this is where you do your best work of your lifetime. You will sit in an armchair with your grandchildren running around and say, you know, I was employee number 13 there, and you have to make them feel like this is the most important way they could spend their day.
That's a beautiful thing.
Really important. I think this with also every single meeting, which is like every single meeting we have to show up. If you are not prepped for one of our meetings as like one of my team members, you will be in trouble. Like it is inexcusable to not be prepped. You can cancel, but to show up and not be prepped is a disrespect to someone's time and actually you won't perform at your best. Anything we do, we do really well. I'd rather do fewer things great. Really, really important. You know, I think for us, especially on like how we show up, I always say to the team, we should be the highlight of someone's day. It almost needs to be a performance. And that needs to be, oh my god, I just left that meeting with Start Guy. He was amazing. We need to have a 10 out of 10 NPS net promoter score.
I like how you have these frameworks that you're very committed to. I think it's... that almost feels like a put-down of... like it feels as an outsider to intelligence. What are your thoughts? I think it's more like you have all these like systems in every category of your life, business, personal.
100%. It needs to be specific. How many people do you have on the podcast where it's kind of fluffy? I look for discipline or resilience, as I said. No, no, no. You know another thing that really is a signal of great entrepreneurs? When they move around a lot in childhood. You're forced to assimilate with different environments, make new friends, leave friends. It's really important. I really like having frameworks. Yeah, a framework to scale a business. The only thing that matters is building a flywheel of customer acquisition. How does your last customer bring you your next customer?
Every single Twitter follower for the first 50,000 followers, I would DM personally and say, hi, Start Guy, I saw that you followed me. I just want to say I really appreciate the follow. Always let me know if there's anything I can do to make the show better. And then I did PS, I loved... Me and my family always went there on family holidays. And I used to get their location from their Twitter handle because it says where you're from. And so I used to do a copy and paste. I used to change the top name and change the bottom name. And it's specific. Why did I do that? Because people are like, oh, copy and paste. You just changed my name. If you do the bottom, they instantly think that you didn't.
It's so easy to do. I used to send out every single night for an hour at 2am to every... You know what? 90% of people responded. Whoa, that's so cool. Yeah, thanks so much. Yeah, I love the show. And do you know what happens? They go into the office the next day and said, you know, Start Guy messaged me and said like if there's anything you could do to help. Yeah. Inspires the next customer.
Why do you feel this need and desire to progress and everything so quickly and so efficiently?
Because I'm intensely insecure. Because I feel a desperate lack of time, if I'm honest. I think life is very, very short. And I feel there is so much that I want to accomplish in the time that I have. And you know, I think one of the things that I still grapple with, and I think this is a problem with podcast guests as well, is they're only willing to discuss things where they have an answer. I don't have an answer to this, but I'm bringing it as a discussion topic. I am consistently dissatisfied because I think that we could be doing more, should be moving faster, shouldn't have done something. And I think it's almost a skill that founders need to be at peace with dissatisfaction because you will never be content and happy. And if you are, honestly, maybe that's a signal that you shouldn't be doing it anymore. But why do I want to do this? Because I want to have an impact, dude. I know it sounds like, and I'm not saying, you know, save the whales. Obviously, whales are nice. I loved Free Willy, too. But like I want to be remembered for having done something meaningful. And I think if I sit in an armchair with grandchildren running around me to be able to say, oh, look at Lovable or Lora or any of these great businesses. And I remember meeting Anton and Max and telling my grandchildren and see their face light up. That's success, isn't it? That is really what it's all about. By the way, I think it's really important to make your first meaningful amount of money first. People don't talk about that. They talk about impact, just impact. No, no. Focus on just sheer cash accumulation. Once you get that, then it's like, how do I really build something that lasts?
I think the consideration of that sheer cash accumulation or the impact comes at varying cost that people are willing to pay or not pay depending on their love and desire for the process involved to get that versus the outcome involved.
Most people say they want it. They don't want it. Like I would like not be able to sleep at night. I wanted it so much. Like it hurt my gut. Like there, you know, especially in the early days, like there is nothing that I would not do to win and make money, honestly, in the early days. I remember my brother, who I adore, I'm very close to him. You know, I passed out because of exhaustion and he found me like on the kitchen floor and he like scooped me up, cooked me dinner and looked after me in a very sweet and kind of special moment. But it's not always healthy. I'm admitting that and I'm not advertising the health benefits of that. But there is nothing in the early days that I wouldn't do to win. And I think truthfully, it's more competitive than ever. And if you're not willing to do everything it takes to win, someone else is. And when I'm tired and I want to watch Netflix, honestly, masochistically, I imagine that other 30-year-old like me who's willing to stay up and do that extra mile. That gets me back to my desk.
Honestly, now, no. I don't have the time. I also think, and I'm sorry I'm going to lose friends here, I think grown men that game need to kind of focus on some more important priorities.
All your gaming founders are going to pull out your allocation.
Do you know what? I think they'll be fine. I care a lot about kids. I love kids and I think being a good dad is very important.
I don't, but I would like them, you know, in time.
And the theoretical kids.
You love your theoretical...
Lovely theoretical kids. They're so well behaved. But like I think honestly gaming now is just tough for me.
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Let's gifify your life for a second if you don't mind. If you could cheat code to that final outcome that you speak of with deep excitement towards of your grandkids running towards you. So, not cheating life, but basically being in the position where that's possible today. Would you use that cheat code where you basically skip the process and immediately get your desired outcome?
Absolutely not. No. Like, I love every single day. I hated school when I was young. Sunday night was the worst time ever. Double maths, whatever, chemistry, biology. Dude, I love every single... the minute that like you... the end is the outcome. That's like the secret to unhappiness. I love every single day. I love being here with you in this moment. I love desperately every show that I do. If I don't want to do a show, I cancel it. I don't... I'm sorry. I'm too old now. Now I'm 30, I can say this. I'm too old to do things that I don't want to do. If I don't want to do a show, I don't feel like I'm going to learn something, I'm out. And so, like, absolutely not. You have to enjoy the process. Like it's not about eating the fish, it's about fishing. That's what really makes the happy person. So, no, I wouldn't. And like the other thing is like there isn't a cheat code. Everyone wants the cheat code. And content today is so focused around algorithms which actually deliberately screw your mind because they'll give you as a content creator a hit and you get this dopamine. Yeah, I'm going viral and yeah, I'm great. And it'll starve you. And you'll go, oh my god, you'll feel unloved. It's like a relationship. I'm unloved. And so, do you know what you do? You create more content. You pander to it more. And then it'll give you the hit again. And then it'll starve you. And actually, it's created this kind of very twisted relationship between creator and platform. One, which is challenging, but it's also created this desperate need for like cheat codes and hooks that work and viral that work. And actually, 90% of the time, there is no cheat code.
I don't mean to psychologize you, but if you allow me to, I'd love to.
You seem hyper-optimized in every element of your life, which by definition, optimization is shortcutting process versus enjoying process. Like I think, let's take an Italian gentleman who owns a beautiful coffee bar in Milan, wakes up, cleans the machine, serves his first customer with a smile, slowly enjoys process. Clearly, I don't see you enjoying process. I see you doing whatever it takes to automate the coffee machine and you know, like you don't seem like you're enjoying process at all. You seem like you're actually skipping process in order to make it as efficient and powerful as possible in order to maximize outcome.
100%. The first thing I do when I get up in the morning is I have my Brian Johnson longevity shake which has like 60 minerals in one. And do you know what? You're going to love this. You know, I used to do it where you like shake it, shake it, shake it so it like mixes in. No, that's not cool.
You have a robo shaker now?
No, I have a NutriBullet shaker thing. Done. Great. Fantastic. And then I take it with me on my first meeting like really, really aligned to that. No, I am either on or I'm off. And I'm not often off, I have to admit. But like in the case where I am off, like I just went away to Greece with my girlfriend Christina. I'm actually pretty off, as she might say otherwise, like what, maybe two, three hours a day. And so like there's a time and a place for things. When I am in Milan with an espresso, I will sit in the square and take in the beauty of the Duomo and say, oh, how wonderful. But otherwise, no. Like we're here to win. Speaking of we're here, we're currently in London at a beautiful residence at the Peninsula Hotel in Belgravia.
You are clearly English from your very eloquent British accent.
Your hustle exists in the UK, but I think it's quite rare. I rarely see people with your cadence and with your fire to succeed in London. Then I see it more in cities like New York and more and more in the US.
You want to hear something funny? I have to tone it down for interviews.
Oh, dude. I'm much more intense than this. This is like chilled mode.
Can you tell us more about that and more about how you stand out to the rest of the UK for people who are listening and who are maybe not from the UK?
I have bet my career on Europe in some ways by being here. And I believe that Europe has amazing entrepreneurs, which is why I'm here. I also believe that you need to know the game you're playing in life. And actually, the biggest problem is people don't. And they also aren't the number one in their category. Do you want to be Uber or Lyft? You want to be Uber. That's the freaking point.
Hate to be a contrarian, but I think it depends because I know a lot of people who'd rather be... Someone else makes the mistakes. The mistakes cost more. The first movers have to work a lot harder. I think the Italian guy with the coffee machine, he doesn't want to invent coffee. He wants to do it his own way.
Well, the enterprise value is about 100 billion difference. So that's a lot of coffee that I can buy with the interim. I get you completely, but like candidly again, I'm here to make money as well. Yeah. I care very passionately. Like it sounds strange, but like real passion. I have some of the biggest healthcare foundations invested in my funds. You know, people that you know, we have children's hospitals. We are here to make as much money as possible so that as many children as possible get cancer treatment. Yeah, I am here working late because we're going to absolutely make as much money for them as possible. Yeah, we make money too, but hell, that is a really cool thing to work for. And so, yes, I completely agree with you and you're right. The process there. But no, like I want to be Uber and I want to be the number one in the category. Most categories, the number one actually gets 80 to 90% and the rest is split between the rest.
I like that you briefly tried to convince me that you're not a capitalist but a philanthropist, but it didn't work. Okay. You're not fooling me, Harry.
Well, I'm like, you know, that the 20% carry still exists, you know. I wasn't like, oh, that's gone, too.
We're doing this for the kids.
Yeah. Yeah. No, but I mean it genuinely does drive incentive I think for team as well. And I think it is important. But we, you know, we want to be the number one and I think when you... to your question on Europe, yeah, we're here to be the number one in Europe. And actually, candidly, you know, Sequoia is a phenomenal fund. For those that don't know, it's like the number one fund in the world. It's been hailed for years. You know what? We can build the number one firm in Europe. In the US, that is much, much harder. Much harder. And so I like to go where other people aren't. And honestly, Europe is a lot less crowded. We have a much higher chance of winning. And the prize is enormous. Tens and tens and tens of billions, hundreds of billions. If you look at Revolute today,
I'd like to unpack that conviction a bit more because the... Do you... interesting, sorry.
European entrepreneurs today, especially young founders in Europe. Donald Trump is the CMO of Europe. He's created this resentment to the US from European entrepreneurs where before they used to want to go to the US. I want to build in New York or Silicon Valley. Actually, for many now, they're like, I've seen ICE on Twitter and it looks pretty scary. I don't like Trump and some of his policies. I disagree vehemently with X or Y. I'm going to build in Europe and I'm going to make Europe proud. And so I see this real kind of homegrown inspiration actually as a result of Trump, and I'm not getting political, but just like that's really happened over the last few years which we didn't have before. I always used to have to convince people to stay in Europe. Now they want to because they want to prove the world differently.
There's one incredible European business and particularly an English business whose bottles are sitting in between us today. Zap. We're both friends with the founder. I think Zap has done an incredible job of doubling down over and over again on Europe, but particularly on London as a city. For those who don't know, Zap is an incredible business that delivers luxury goods and essentials to people's homes in minutes. It's kind of like a premium Gopuff for the American listeners, but for the listeners in London, it is already probably a part of their daily life. What do you think of Zap as a product? You know, how do you think a business like Zap has been able to become a real part of culture and everyday life for Londoners in particular?
I think it's kind of interesting in a couple of different ways. One, it goes back to your point on focus. Like I don't really ever go shopping in stores because like that's just a fundamental waste of time for me traipsing around aisles looking for things. If I can have like repeat buyers with the same stuff and knowing exactly what I'm getting, having it delivered to my home, it's so much easier. So like for me, what it does in terms of productivity is amazing. So I love it for that. And then number two, I think what Zap did really well is they know their customer. Exactly to my point on your thousand true fans, Zap know that business is London. They didn't try and do Manchester and Leeds and, you know, Dublin and Aberdeen. London. They know that it's not everyone actually. Zap is for a more premium customer. If you're looking for Poundland and discounts, it's probably not on Zap. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's probably not on Zap. And so I think they found their thousand true fans really well. And then I think candidly the job is how do you increase share of wallet within them? Because that's the really tough thing now, which is that if you have a limited market, how do you encourage them to spend as much as possible? And that's again what I think they've done so well on is when you look at now I get AirPods delivered on Zap. I was flying to, you know, somewhere the other day and I needed AirPods like because mine broke. I got them in 10 minutes on Zap, like amazing. And so like the expansion across inventory has been really important and good in terms of increasing share of wallet. I think...
You know, the hard thing though is, and this is what most entrepreneurs don't see, is venture capital has changed though in the way that we now need billion-dollar revenue businesses. Before it was like, oh, we needed a billion-dollar business. And every entrepreneur was like, I'm going to build a unicorn. Like, I hate to say it, but now a unicorn isn't enough for the new venture model. We need a billion dollars in revenue, and we need decacorns. We need 10 billion businesses. You know, Cursor, which for those that don't know is AI coding in its simplest form, sold for 60 billion in four years. That sets some landmark for what your competitors are delivering to both of our customers, which is the people that give us money. And so, we need to be in those two. There are a smaller number of companies that are worth more and more. And to your point, on my intensity, my productivity, my... you know what? You can't afford to because there's someone else who's clipping at your heels. And it is one of the most competitive landscapes, and I like that. I like the competition actually.
I think it's a great thing to acknowledge. Are you competitive?
I am competitive. I'm lucky to have many friends that have achieved tremendous success and friends that have been slightly less successful. And I have never found that the cost of being tremendously successful versus just quite successful is worth it. And I see that what the cost it has on their relationships, on their bodies, on their family. And they have this big vision of I'll do all this and then one day it'll be worth it. And when I talk to them about it, they rarely feel that way after the fact, but they do feel that way during the fact. So, I do want to be successful, but I'm aware of the costs of being tremendously successful, which I'm not necessarily willing to pay.
Allah pubell to the... I'll be happy when, I'll be happy when, you know, when I get that X or Y. I'm 100% with you there.
Like, which is why you have to enjoy the process. So, I completely agree on that and I completely agree. I have friends who've made a billion and I have friends who've made a hundred.
Million. I guarantee you the hundred million friends are much, much happier than the billion friends.
Fully agree. 100% with you. Which is why I'm actually very content in myself. I sound, I think when I replay what I said, almost kind of twisted and psychologically scarred. Um, I don't mind. I really don't care what people think. As I said, it's... but I'm very content in myself, which is why I rock up like this. It's why I just am who I am. And one thing that actually has been great over my decade or so working is like people have a lot more money than me and that's awesome. I don't feel the need to buy the car I can't drive or the Patek or whatever it is. I'm just Harry. I know how much money I've got. It's enough to look after my family and be happy and do all these things that I like. So that's cool. I didn't need the watch to signify it. So I'm quite happy because most of the time I see, especially in my friends, that changes and I do need that watch and I need the next watch and I need the next car. Ah, that's just the secret to unhappiness. You got to get off that hedonic treadmill.
You're also famous though, which helps.
Fame is [clears throat] the watch.
Fame is the watch. And people know Harry. But maybe if they didn't know Harry, you'd want them to know Harry.
I would much rather be relevant than extremely rich.
Being relevant is nice. Being relevant is really nice. I, I, this is ego, I'm sure, or insecurity, but like I like being at the center of discussion. I like being a community connector node. I like, I like people liking my content. It feels good. Maybe it's just a desperate need for appreciation that, you know, should be discussed in therapy, but like I do, I do like that relevance. People will come up and ask for a photo in the park. That feels nice.
Yeah, I think that feels great. Yeah, it does. And I think people are like scared to admit it because it looks like, oh, you shouldn't say that. It feels good. Especially when they're kind and they have a specific thing about your life or career that they value that you maybe undervalue as well.
Yeah, you know, I said it before, but like, you know, male eating disorders. The amount of times I have people message me about male eating disorders. I mean, seriously, whenever I post something on LinkedIn about it, I'll get a hundred men DM me and be like, 'Dude, I'm really struggling right now. I'm in McKinsey and I'm sitting in the L and I just can't face lunch and I just don't know what to do.' Um, that is pretty amazing. And I don't know about you, but I don't see many people who have a platform who are talking about hating their body or questioning every calorie that they eat or not feeling worthy of sitting at the dinner table. It's important that people with a platform do say these things.
What do you think of founder porn in general online? Like I agree that being a founder is awesome, but you very well said it throughout this podcast that it's not made for everyone. And I think there's this really strong rhetoric online about glamorizing being an entrepreneur versus just being entrepreneurial as a person. I'm curious to hear your thoughts about that.
I think founder porn is pernicious and dangerous. I think most of founder porn is done by people who I promise you are not what I would call true founders, which is obsessed to the core of their craft. Um, and it's people who like to go to Five Hartford Street and say that they're a founder of a wellness brand, and that kind of says it all. Um, and so I think you need to separate founders into two types: venture-backed founders and non-venture-backed founders. Non-venture-backed founders, you can be a founder and not be maniacally obsessed, absolutely unwaveringly focused on building a $10 million business. You build a DTC brand to 50 million, 100 million, sell it. That's amazing. That's great for you. But that's different. The intensity that comes from Alan Chang, who is the founder of Fuse Energy, who you know used to live in the same building as the office to optimize his commute time, so he had minimal time, who would just every single bit he would pay people more money to live within a square mile so they would work later in the evening and be more optimized. Every inch of this business is optimized to the extreme. You think I am an efficiency optimizer? I'm an amateur hour. There are so many better people than me. But my point being, when you get to the venture style, it's not founder porn when people are saying seven days a week this is everything to me. For those true ones, it's just reality. And I think that actually they shouldn't be chastised for it. You should see it as a display or a warning sign of the commitment that's needed to win. People don't know the commitment that's needed to win. Before you engage on this dangerous mission, you should know that you will miss weddings, funerals, birthday parties. You will feel worthless most days. You will have massive ups and massive lows in the same day. You will question yourself on the hour, every hour. And it will be really hard for a long period of time with a very small chance of success. If that sounds good, please sign up below.
How many founders have you spoken to in your life?
Um, well, that's a good question. Probably 12,000, I'd probably say. Oh, yeah. Probably three a day. Yeah. Say a thousand a year for 10 to 12 years. Yeah.
Of the ones that you admire or the ones that you think have done a good job, what would you say the cost they've all had to incur is, or most of them have had to incur? What are all the different costs? You gave a long list of all those life moments they've had to miss, but are there any more?
It's very hard to be a very good parent and truly be a world-class CEO of a decacorn or hundred billion dollar business. It's almost impossible. I say that with sadness because I love kids and I care deeply about being a parent. But that said, I'm not a founder of a multi-decacorn and I'm not willing to be. Actually, that is like the line. I'm not willing to be a bad parent and not give myself to kids when I have them when it comes, and which is why I have so much respect for those that do. Um, but that is one sad truth, which is when you have a hundred billion dollar business, I'm sorry, you live on a plane, you have offices in every country in the world, and it is incredibly, incredibly hard to do for long periods of time. You know, for a year to three years it's doable, but for long periods of time very few people have been able to do it. I would actually call out Daniel Ek. We mentioned Shaq at the beginning. Daniel is probably the only one who I know who is an incredible father, just insanely there for his kids for bath time and bedtime and just always been an amazing dad, and who was an incredible CEO and he was CEO of Spotify for many years. So I'd call him out, but other than that, incredibly, incredibly hard.
He's not very social, so he had to give that up, I guess, which is one of the three things.
You have to, you know, I think of life as four hobs in a kitchen. You know, the fire turn on. Yeah. Uh, I'm not great at cooking. Uh, hence the sashimi.
