This Sunday, Russian roulette. President Trump strikes a fuel deal with Vladimir Putin, easing sanctions on Russia as the war in Ukraine rages on.
I think it's time for Ukraine to get a new president.
Is the president rewarding Putin? Plus, battleground. With just 23 days until the midterms, my exclusive interview with Michigan Democrat Abdul al-Saied. Do you still see President Obama's presidency as a failure? Putting his progressive politics to the test in a state that could determine control of the Senate. Are you concerned that if your race is close, the validity will be called into question?
I am concerned that Donald Trump and Mike Rogers are not committed to the institution of our democracy.
And power check. Republican Senator Thom Tillis warns his party of an electoral bloodbath and sounds the alarm about presidential power. What he says Republicans need to do now. Plus, deep cuts, best-selling author Michael Lewis on his new book, Blockers, and the federal workers who found themselves in the crosshairs of DOGE and Elon Musk. Joining me for insight and analysis are Amna Nawaz, co-anchor of PBS NewsHour, former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson, and Stephen Hayes, editor of The Dispatch. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press from NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
Good Sunday morning. With just 23 days until the midterms, the fight for control of Congress is intensifying and the map is moving. The Cook Political Report shifting 18 House races toward Democrats as Republicans fight to hold their majority, and the battle for the Senate is shifting too. Cook moving three Senate races toward Democrats, including Kansas, now a tossup, and projecting Democrats could pick up as many as six seats. They need four to take control. But one of the biggest battlegrounds remains Michigan, where Democrat Abdul al-Saied is locked in a tight race with Republican Mike Rogers that could help decide control of the Senate. On Friday, I traveled to Mount Pleasant, Michigan, and the campus of Central Michigan University in a county President Trump won in 2024 to sit down with al-Saied. You announced that former President Obama is going to join you on the campaign trail a little bit later on this month in Detroit. You have been critical, though, of President Obama after voting for his re-election in 2012. You wrote, quote, 'Obama was not the right choice. He just wasn't the wrong one. This leader has perpetrated war, violated our civil liberties, deported more people from our shores than any other president before him, and the list of his failures goes on.' Do you still see President Obama's presidency as a failure?
Well, we've lived through two Trump terms now. So, look, I know that President Obama was handed a really difficult set of circumstances and he did his best. I also want to step back. You know, Kristen, are your parents still with us?
They are. Thank goodness.
Thank goodness. Mine are too. And I think about my dad. I wouldn't have my life but for my dad's efforts. I'm so grateful for him. At the same time, there's a lot of things about my dad I do differently, right? And it's because when you intensely appreciate somebody who's done so much to make something that you're doing possible, you're both going to see the best of them and you're also going to see the things that you'd want to change. I can't say how much I appreciate President Obama. I've read everything he's written twice. And it's because he was the president of my 20s. I mean, it was the first time I ever saw myself in politics. I remember when he gave that 2004 commencement speech—excuse me, DNC speech—and I had never seen politics look like that. He showed me something in myself I would never have seen without him. I mean, his run, the elegance, the grace, the commitment under pressure, just the basket of terrible things he was handed by the Bush era, whether it was a failing economy, wars, a healthcare system that was deeply broken, and the way that he handled it all. Now, that is so much appreciation for what he showed me and me, what he showed our country, the fact that he went first. And also, there are so many things that I would point to and say, I wish we could have that again. But my job is to step up and pick up the baton and run as hard as I can. And I appreciate that President Obama understands that in history. He understands that, you know, he did his best with the circumstances he had, and it's the opportunity to pass that along to another generation of leaders who are going to pick up and fight on the moral beliefs that we fight on.
Any concerns that there could be some underlying awkwardness to his visit given your past criticism?
Look, anybody who—I've had really great mentors in my life, and the best thing about those mentors is they let you grow up, you know. And I think the person who wrote those op-eds when I was younger—I was younger, right?—and I was angry about circumstances. And you know, I think about that, and you read Dreams from My Father, and I see echoes of somebody who's frustrated and wants things to be better. And at the same time, you know, I look at how he's led, and I look at, you know, for me, what—that's 2012 now, so it's 2026, 14 years on. You grow up, you know, you start to appreciate just how hard change is and how important it is to pick up and push. And that's not to say that there aren't things that, you know, we're going to push on in different ways than his administration led, but it is to say that where we push differently, it is because we've learned from what he's done and because we stand on the shoulders of giants. And so I just got to say, like, you know, I am so grateful to have been a young man in my 20s with Barack Hussein Obama as president. I would never have seen, you know, myself running for office. I told—2007 at my graduation, I told former President Bill Clinton that there was no world in which somebody like me could run for office. After he came up to me and said, you know, you have a gift for speaking, maybe someday you'll run for office, I literally told him people like me with names like mine can't. And then the next year I watched Barack Obama run for and win the presidency. Fundamentally changed what I thought was possible in American politics. He did that, and I'm just so grateful to have been able to, you know, to build on that.
Well, let's talk about some of what you want to do if you do in fact win. You have talked about supporting Medicare for all. In your vision of Medicare for all, does private insurance still exist?
If people want redundant care, absolutely. I don't want to take anything away. This is about what we offer to people. What Medicare for all is, is guaranteed health insurance from cradle to the moment you pass away, God willing, at 120 years old after a long, healthy life. And it comes without premiums or co-pays or deductibles. And it guarantees you care where you need it. That is a level of security we have never known in the United States of America. And as President Obama called the ACA, he called it a starter home. And I think, you know, you look on, we've outgrown our starter home. It's time for us to reach and to say, what can we get now? And if people want to keep their private insurance above and beyond the public insurance that we guarantee, then great. But I don't want them to have to have that because if you look at where we are right now, the average premium is $2,000 for a family of four. Average deductible is $4,500. That deductible, that's the reason why we carry a collective $225 billion in medical debt. Why a third of bankruptcies occur because of medical debt. We don't have to live like this anymore in the United States.
Well, you take me to my next question because when President Obama was passing ACA, he promised people, if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. If you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan. Of course, he ultimately couldn't keep that promise. He even told NBC News he regretted making that promise. Under your vision of Medicare for all, can people keep their health care plan if they like their health care plan?
Yes. That health care plan has to decide that they're going to continue to keep those people. And right now what's happening is these health care plans are getting so expensive that they're knocking people out. So that's a choice for those corporations to have to make.
Let's talk about the broader Democratic agenda. Earlier this year, you said President Trump should be impeached. What do you see as his impeachable offenses?
What do you do? Do you name something that—
Like just that alone, right? I mean, there are things that he does on a regular basis, and then there are things that his officials do. Here's the thing about it. I'm running for US Senate. It's not going to be my place to vote to impeach, but I will be in a position to vote to convict. I'll also tell you this. We have a responsibility to make sure that we are bringing down prices first and foremost. It is a crisis out there. I talk to people every single day who say, 'I can't afford everything between my gas and groceries.' That one woman pulled me aside. She's like, 'Hey, by the time I filled up my tank, I had eaten half my grocery budget.' That's impossible. So our number one concern has to be to address the affordability crisis and at the same time making sure that we abide by the rule of law in this country, that every president who comes after Donald Trump understands that there is a rule of law. I think that is absolutely critical as well. We can walk and chew gum, but we do need accountability. The rule of law has to mean something. And if a president is making $2.2 billion, his sons are rolling around in private jets extorting foreign leaders for rare earth metal contracts, that's a real problem.
But as you note, if you win, you would be elected to the US Senate. Are you prepared to vote to convict President Trump if he were to be impeached?
I'm going to review the evidence, but I've also been reviewing the tape, and I can see multiple things that my colleagues in the House might consider impeachable offenses. But again, the goal here is not retribution. And the goal here is enforcement of the rule of law.
Let's talk about some more of your past comments. In the aftermath of an attack on a Michigan synagogue in March, you condemned the attack, but you said, 'Hurt people hurt people.' You later apologized for those comments. What is your message to Jewish voters who still have reservations even after hearing your apology?
Well, my commitment to Jewish safety is the same as my commitment to my own kids. And we need to be able to know that we can go to our schools, that we can go to our places of worship, and that nobody is going to attack, and that we are invested in making sure that folks are safe. I know what it's like to be discriminated against for how I pray. I understand that very well, and I don't want anybody to face that in the United States of America, whether they're being discriminated against because they're Jewish or Sikh or Hindu or Muslim or Christian. And the things that unite us are so much bigger than the things that divide us. So much bigger. We believe in religious pluralism. We believe in the separation of church and state. We believe that more people deserve health care. We believe in reproductive rights. We believe that Donald Trump is an existential threat to our democracy. We believe that corporations shouldn't be able to buy politicians. So I'm hoping that we can unify around the things that we believe in. And I'll tell you, I've had really important conversations. I've learned a lot in the conversations I've had, some conversations with folks who will be colleagues, somebody like Senator Elissa Slotkin. And you know, I remember sitting down with her and her sharing how she felt when she heard that 'hurt people hurt people' comment. And it was really important to me to hear and to understand that I had been stepping on somebody's pain. That's not my goal here. But also, Senator Slotkin and I don't agree on all things. We certainly don't agree on a lot of questions relevant to the Middle East, but we agree that we need to stand up to Donald Trump. We agree that we need to fight back. And so we've been partnering. And where we partner, I'm looking forward to agreeing vehemently on the things we agree on and getting things done for people in the state of Michigan and showing what it looks like to disagree agreeably on the points in which we disagree. As I've said to the Jewish community, frankly, to all communities, if you open the door for me and you invite me, I'm coming.
And is it safe to say, based on what you're saying, you regret making those comments, 'hurt people hurt people'?
I regret anytime, you know, if I step on somebody's grief, of course I regret that. You know, I really wish I'd have thought about how somebody would have felt hearing that and thought twice about making those comments.
I want to give you the chance to address some of the attacks that were lobbed on the debate stage. They've also been airing in ads. Former Congressman Mike Rogers repeatedly tried to tie you and members of your family to the Muslim Brotherhood.
The only reason he said those things is because he really wanted to repeat the word Muslim.
Well, let me give you a chance to respond, because he made roughly 10 references seemingly trying to link you to terrorism. You've said you don't want to dignify those kinds of claims. For Michigan voters who are hearing those attacks against you, who are looking to separate fact from fiction, can you set the record straight about whether you or your family have any ties to the Muslim Brotherhood?
No. But let's talk about this.
No, you don't have any ties?
And your family doesn't? No, let me ask you though why—
this is even a subject of debate. Because his only strategy is to point to me and my name and my faith and to say that we're different and that you should suspect people simply because they are different than you in how they pray. But there are so many more ways that we're the same. When I walk around Michigan, they understand that that approach is unfortunately—it's the approach of small people with small ideas who don't really care about solving big problems. Michiganders are open-minded. They're big-hearted. They're gritty. They're earnest. They believe in an America big enough. And they're interested in what we can do to solve our problems together. Because the whole time that he was lobbing insane assertions about me, I was a junior in high school, 9/11, and do you know how many ads he's run trying to make assertions? I was a junior in high school. It's shameful. It's truly shameful. But he has no ideas. He doesn't actually care about solving problems. He cares about power. I want to talk about gas prices. I want to talk about grocery prices. I want to talk about seeing a doctor. I want to talk about being able to breathe clean air and drink clean water. I want to talk about being able to survive as a family farmer, as we were talking about today with a group of farmers in Mid-Michigan where my family has had farms for decades. And he doesn't want to talk about those things. And it's sad to me that he thinks that the effort to tear us apart for his power is going to work. It is so indicative of this era of Trump politics. But just remember, Mike Rogers is running for US Senate because Donald Trump called him and asked him to. He can't break with Donald Trump for real on anything that's actually relevant. He won't really break with him on tariffs. He won't really break with him on war because his only pathway to power is through him. Now, why does he want that power so bad? Not because he wants to serve you as a US senator. He doesn't have ideas. He wants that power because the last time he had power, he was able to retire and make $14 million as an adviser for the very same corporations he had been regulating as a US congressman. He saw Trump make $2.2 billion off the presidency. He said, 'You know what? I got to get while the getting's good.' And so, who do you know who he's got? We do. And all he's got is to point to me and say, 'Well, let me say some scary words and it'll work.' It's not going to work. Michiganders are too big for that.
You recently campaigned with former Vice President Harris, who said, 'Democrats have got to turn out the votes in large numbers. We've got to be too big to rig.' Do you agree that Democrats need to make the election, quote, 'too big to rig'?
We've got to win by massive numbers.
Donald Trump has already threatened to do what he did in 2020, which is deny the outcomes of an election. And right now, he is president of the United States. He has weaponized ICE in ways that are really quite dangerous if you think about the implications for our democracy. So yes, we have to win by massive numbers. The guy I'm running against, he insinuates that he didn't actually lose in 2020. He talks about this mythical van that showed up in Detroit with a bunch of votes as if he didn't lose. That's the guy I'm running against right now. And he said that in a time when Joe Biden was president. Now you got Donald Trump as president. So we've got to win by massive enough numbers that it is unquestionable that we won.
And my thanks to Abdul al-Saied. Head to meetthepress.com to find our full interview, including his answers on whether he'd work with Senator Fetterman and President Trump and whether he'd vote to scrap the filibuster and much more. We've also extended an invitation to his Republican opponent, Mike Rogers. And when we come back, Republican Senator Thom Tillis joins me next.
Welcome back. Joining me now is Republican Senator Thom Tillis of North Carolina. He's the author of the new book, How to Lose Friends and Antagonize Presidents. Senator Tillis, welcome back to Meet the Press.
Good morning. Congratulations on the new book. We're going to get to it in just a moment, but first I want to start on President Trump on Friday lifting sanctions on Russia as part of a deal to buy Russian oil without any agreement to end the war in Ukraine. Then on Saturday, he actually called on Ukraine to find a new leader. Take a listen to what he said.
You know what I suggest? I suggest they get a new leader who can make a deal, because he could have made many deals that for some reason he never does.
Senator Tillis, what is your reaction to all of this?
I completely reject it. Look, I was over in Ukraine a couple of weeks ago with a couple of my colleagues. We went to Kyiv. We heard stories of systematic kidnapping and relocation of children, rape of women and daughters in the presence of their husband before they were executed. An illegal war that was initiated by the despot that we know as Vladimir Putin. If President Trump wants to end the strain on energy supplies, number one, get things right in Iran. And number two, recognize that it was Vladimir Putin, not Zelensky, that started this war. And it's Vladimir Putin who owns the responsibility for energy prices to the extent that they come from that part of the world. It's also Vladimir Putin who disrupted food supplies that are causing people to starve in Africa. So please, please spare me any blame on the Ukrainian people and President Zelensky. They're fighting for their lives, and Vladimir Putin wants to literally freeze them to death in the coming months. The president needs to move forward with the sanctions bill that we sent him. This agreement with Russia purchasing Russian oil is essentially, I think, tarnishing Lindsey Graham's efforts to try and get the sanctions bill through. So the president should implement the sanctions bills, not be wide open to Russian energy.
Well, and to follow up with you on that point, when you hear the president calling for a new leader of Ukraine, do you believe he's taking the side of Vladimir Putin?
Well, you know, it seems like the president needs to realize that tens of thousands of people have died over this illegal invasion, and I get it that he may be frustrated, but he needs to understand who the good guys are in this disagreement and who the bad guys are. And it's not even close.
Well, let me—talking about bills that have been passed. In 2022, the Senate voted 100 to nothing to ban Russian oil imports until Russia met certain conditions, including withdrawing from Ukraine. The law says any changes to that have to be run through Congress. Do you believe the president is breaking the law with this deal with Russia?
I believe that he may be. And I'm planning on, if we haven't put it out yet, putting out a statement with Senator Shaheen on this matter. Look, this has deadly consequences. Giving Vladimir Putin any sense that we're going to put our foot on the brakes versus put our foot on the accelerator to ending this war and ensuring peace in Europe. We've got to go back, and I do believe there's a legitimate case for saying the president's not following the law. We were very clear that Russia is the aggressor. Russia is the one who can end this war by backing out of territory that they occupied. In fact, it should all go all the way back to Crimea, but at least the additional land that they've invaded over the past three years.
