This book is so truthful and resonates so powerfully. This is going to be one of those books you keep by your bedside forever.
He has helped me understand our greatest devastations can become our greatest strengths. Right now, I'm kind of in the 'it's not fair' phase. Why me?
Everything that happens to you, especially the worst things that happen to you, are there for a reason. And then you can use those things to help you transform yourself.
Hi there and a warm welcome to you all. Thanks for being here with me on the Oprah podcast. While I was getting ready for this episode, I read this statistic that dementia is right up there with cancer as the most feared medical condition. And I have to say that doesn't surprise me. And I'm sure it doesn't surprise many of you who are listening or watching because there's no cure.
And many of us see the devastation that patients endure. The loss of independence, of course the loss of memories, and the loss of — this is the thing I think most people fear — is the loss of your very self.
And when my next guest was diagnosed with Lewy body dementia, he was told that it will ravage his brain. He will lose his mobility. He may display bizarre behavior. He may even endure terrifying hallucinations.
He suffered through many dark nights of the soul. Because can you imagine being told that? And he suffered before he began to see his fate as a blessing. And so when I first heard that, I was like, I just — the worst diagnosis you could possibly receive. I don't know how anybody could see that as a blessing. And of course, I wanted to talk to anybody who could see that a blessing as a blessing. And that anybody is here today. I know that may be hard for you all to believe. So I wanted to learn too how he got to this place. He's a renowned psychotherapist and best-selling author. Barry Michels is here to share with all of us how he became fully alive in the face of dire adversity.
He says that we all can, you can, I can, and it doesn't take us a crisis to get there. And his new book chronicling his path from diagnosis to acceptance is just extraordinary. When I tell you this is a book you're going to want for yourself and you absolutely want to gift it to anybody who loves life, is going through a trial, has been through a trial, or just appreciates being human — it's extraordinary. It's called 'Ahead of All Parting.' Barry, thank you for being here.
Thank you so much for having me.
That's just the worst diagnosis I think anybody could ever receive. I think a lot of people fear cancer, but even in fearing cancer, you know, there may be a cure. There may be even after you've tried all the things — I have a family member going through it now — there's a clinical trial, you know, so there's some glimmer of hope. But a diagnosis like that...
And also with cancer, your consciousness remains intact. You are still yourself.
The thing about Lewy body dementia and any other form of dementia is you begin to lose what defines you as you.
Yeah, or what you thought.
Or at least what you thought defined you.
So, let's begin with how — how are you today? When I was reading this, I was like, well, will I even be able to talk to you? Because, you know, had it progressed to a point where you wouldn't even be able to have a conversation. So, how are you?
I'm all right. I, you know, I have good days and bad days. This is about sort of a medium day.
What it means is that my brain isn't as sharp as I'm used to it being. I may fumble a little bit with answers. I might not remember parts of the book that I should remember, but I'm not completely fogged out or completely, you know, disoriented or anything like that.
So, a bad day would have you completely fogged out.
I, you know, that's a bit of an exaggeration. I wouldn't say that I ever get to that point, but I do have days where I feel like I really shouldn't do psychotherapy today because I'm not really going to be helpful to the person.
Barry Michels is a Los Angeles-based psychotherapist. He and his longtime collaborator Phil Stutz co-wrote the New York Times bestseller, 'The Tools.' Their work uses mental exercises with names like active love, grateful flow, and loss processing. These tools help people confront psychological obstacles and transform them into growth opportunities.
So, you're still working with patients?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's still going well. I mean, I'm still doing a good job. I can tell that I'm being effective.
You know, it's just so strange because there are times when I wake up in the morning and feel like my brain is literally filled with fog, and then I'll take a run or I'll get some exercise and I'll write some poetry and I'll get back to my office and I'll see my first person and the moment I see them on the Zoom screen or they're in person, I'm there. I'm right back. So, it's very variable. And I think one of the reasons I'm still practicing is that I recognize that when I'm forced to, I show up and I show up really well, which is good for me and it's good for them.
So, do you think then that had you not had the opportunity or the challenge of being forced to show up, that this could have progressed even more because you wouldn't have had a reason to show up?
Exactly. I think if people had coddled me or if I had coddled myself, I would have deteriorated a lot more quickly.
Well, I have to tell you, in my ignorance, I had not heard of Lewy body dementia, and only after reading 'Ahead of All Parting' did I recognize, as I know many of you will, that apparently this is what Robin Williams also suffered from.
Yes. He didn't know, he was undiagnosed, which is — we don't know for sure, but probably why he committed suicide, because the symptoms are so distressing. I mean, you just don't know what's happening to you. I can only imagine how horrified he must have felt.
Okay. So, you were diagnosed with the brain disease called Lewy body dementia. For those of us who don't know, and I was one of the many who didn't, as I say, can you explain to us what it is?
Not really. I mean, it's a brain disease. My father had it and it's what he died of.
But did you all know that at the time? Was it diagnosed as Lewy body dementia?
And what it involves is a gradual wasting away of the personality, so the person really loses themselves. They lose their sense of who they are.
So is it like Alzheimer's? It's a form of dementia because it's called Lewy body dementia.
The symptoms are a lot like Alzheimer's. It's worse. There's something called mixed dementia, which is a combination of Alzheimer's and Lewy body dementia.
Which that's what I have.
I heard you were on — you write in the book that you were on the phone and overheard something about your condition. What happened?
I was on the phone with my wife. She was actually having a procedure done at the hospital and I was at the hospital cafeteria and we were on the phone because she called me to say, 'I'm done. You can come pick me up.' And then she accidentally didn't hang up when we were done talking and I overheard her talking to her nurse saying, you know, 'He doesn't know it, but he also has Alzheimer's.' And at that moment, it's like my blood just ran cold. I just couldn't believe what I was hearing. I held it together until, you know, we got out of the hospital and she was driving us back and I said, 'Judy, I heard what you said. Do I have Alzheimer's?' And she started to cry and she said, 'Yes. And I'm so sorry I withheld it from you.' Our doctor had thought that it would be wise to withhold it from me just for my emotional health, but I needed to know.
This is what you write on page 49 of 'Ahead of All Parting.' You say, 'Grief came like a tsunami. My body shook with sobs that made my ribs feel like they were splintering under the weight of loss. My brain, the instrument that had given me every gift, was no longer on my team. It was slipping away.' How do you begin to process a loss like that? It's shattering.
It's truly, truly shattering.
Because it's not the same as just being sick. You know, when you're sick, you can feel it in your body, but your mind is still intact. Your identity is still preserved.
This promises to destroy your identity, your sense of yourself, which is — I want to call it my most precious possession.
So contemplating losing that was just unimaginably painful.
On page 62, you talk about cosmic rage. Can you tell us what that is?
That is a tool that was devised by my mentor Phil Stutz and it's a brilliant tool. It's to be used when you feel like you're under attack. Usually harsh self-criticism or self-abuse or the voices in your head telling you you're worthless, that kind of thing. And what you do is imagine that those messages are coming from demons. If you don't want to use the word demons, you can use whatever you want, but they're enemies from outside of you.
And you imagine that they are attacking your sense of yourself, your sense of well-being, your sense of self-esteem, etc., etc. And what you do is you gather up all of the rage that you can muster inside of you. It's the kind of rage that says — can I swear?
That says, 'I'm not going to listen to this. Get away from me.' And you project that rage at the demons and you push them away. You can't get rid of them. They just are part of human existence.
But you push them away and you can feel this space opening up in front of you where you can breathe because you're not going to let yourself be consumed by that thing.
Exactly. Like no way. I'm not going to let you do this.
Yeah. It's like in the Bible Jesus says, 'Get thee behind me, Satan.'
Exactly. Get thee behind me. Except in this instance, this is in front of you. But yeah, exactly. And I feel that really powerfully when I use that tool. I feel the freedom of expelling those demons.
So before this all happened, you were working with all of your patients and developing the tools for people to live a better life for themselves. So what started to happen at first that you noticed something was off?
Well, I think my wife knew it more quickly than I did. She just noticed that my memory was bad. Much worse than it had ever been before. I don't know that I really noticed it that much. I mean...
Like you couldn't remember names, couldn't remember...
Would you get confused when you were out?
Sometimes. Yeah. Like, we would order at a restaurant and the waiter would leave and then five minutes later I'd say, 'So, when are we going to order?' You know, just like ridiculous, you know, memory problems.
I'm the kind of person who with my own medical problems, I just tend to say, 'Ah, whatever. I'll be fine.' You know, kind of thing. So, I probably would not have paid attention to it. And I'm grateful to my wife for paying attention to it, bringing it to our doctor's attention, and finally getting me diagnosed.
Yeah. And when you heard the diagnosis...
I don't know that I've ever felt that way before in my life. I mean, it was just shattering. Remember, I knew exactly what this was. Watched my father...
Well, would you have started to suspect too with your memory when your wife brings it to your attention? Am I going to repeat who my father became?
I was so in denial of any medical problems...
That it didn't even occur to you.
No. No. I just bull forward. I just sort of push forward through things like that. And I mean, in a way, I'm glad I did. It gave me a little bit more time. But no, when I was finally given a diagnosis, that shattered the denial.
You know what I think when anybody gets a diagnosis or a crisis shows up in our lives, the first thing we ask is why? Why? Why is this happening to me now? And you write that this disease was invited into your life for a reason. And I just think on page 61 where you say, 'I was beginning to sense that the suffering had direction, that there was something to be forged in it, more courage.' You write, 'more depth, more love. The prize wasn't relief. It was transformation. This was adversity with purpose. And it was the road I was meant to walk.' Wow. I mean, and this has only been in process for three years, right? So you came to this pretty quickly.
Yeah. My life philosophy is everything that happens to you, and in fact especially the worst things that happen to you, are there for a reason. It doesn't mean that they aren't incredibly painful. I don't mean to minimize that. But they happen for a reason. And if you can look at life that way, then you can use those things to help you transform yourself.
And you know, I've often said things are happening for you, not just to you, but I've been able to determine that after I've gotten through the thing, right? You know, it's really easier after you've gotten through the thing to be able to say, 'Oh, I now see what that was for.' Right? It's really hard when you're in the middle of the diagnosis that is telling you you're going to lose your ability to be mobile, to speak, and most importantly, who you were, how you know yourself to be on the planet. Why do you believe that this was the road that you were meant to walk?
Well, I believe it philosophically because that's my belief about life. Adversity has a purpose.
Doesn't mean it isn't painful. And I'm empathic with people who are facing adversity. But it has a purpose. It is supposed to transform.
It doesn't mean the reason is that you're responsible for the reason or that you brought the reason on yourself.
Or that it's a punishment.
Or that it's a punishment. I love that line from Eckhart Tolle in 'A New Earth' where he says, 'Life will give you exactly the experience you need for the evolution of your consciousness.'
Exactly. And how do you know that's the experience you need? Because that's the experience you are having.
Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And that's a wonderful way to live because then you can embrace every event regardless of how adverse it is or how painful it is. It still has a positive purpose showing up for you.
And your journey here on this planet at this time.
Because that's the path you were meant to walk.
Not what you wanted to do.
It was the path that you were meant to walk and it evokes strengths that you were meant to develop.
So when you started to look at it that way, what shifted for you in this process? Because you know probably because you remember this long time ago. I think it was somebody named Rollins wrote a book. It's called 'First You Cry' when she was diagnosed with cancer. 'First You Cry.' So first you cried.
Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Did you allow others to see you cry? Did you share your crying with others?
That's just what I was going to talk about. I grew up in a very, very troubled family. And it was impossible to open up in my family because whatever you said would be used against you.
So, I learned to be very closed, very protective, and in a certain way selfish, although I didn't think of it as selfish. I thought of it as self-protective.
When LBD hit, that shifted and it shifted dramatically two days after the diagnosis. In fact, I remember sitting in my office on the couch and I must have called 25 people. Now, you got to understand, I wouldn't call 25 people in a single day ever.
Mhm. Maybe over six months, you know, but not in one day. And I called them to tell them about the diagnosis and to elicit their support, which also was completely strange for me. And as I was making the calls, I realized, oh, I'm not just telling people to give them information. I'm changing the trajectory of my life from one of extreme secrecy and self-protectiveness to one that is open and connected. I want my life to be connected to other people. And that was one of the most startling and dramatic shifts that I've ever experienced in my life.
Well, I think the decision to choose not to hide, to choose not to hide is just huge.
For me, it was huge because I would have hidden it in the past.
Yeah. And the energy that it takes then to hide, to cover up, to pretend.
To not show up for things but giving no explanation or excuses or false excuses. Not to mention the fact that you just forego all of that love and support that you could have gotten from people.
That was dangerous for me for whatever reason growing up in my family. So I just walled that off.
Mhm.
Every story we share on the Oprah podcast comes from a place of intention. Each guest has their own journey and my hope is that sharing it with us here can help light the way for somebody else. And as the official insurance partner of this podcast, Geico understands that every journey feels a little easier when you know you have support along the way. It's the time of year when the weather changes, days get shorter, calendars fill up, and you find yourself back in motion again. Taking the kids to school, running errands, heading home after the sun sets. During these busy days, it's the people who show up in small, steady ways who make the season feel a little lighter. The friend who stops by with a home-cooked dinner. The partner who surprises you by filling up your gas tank. These are the everyday moments that remind us we are supported. That kind of support matters on the road and in life. Geico helps you stay covered through the turns, the transitions, and the everyday miles. Because with the right support, we keep driving forward. And that, dear listener, is everything.
So, you all should know that Barry Michels has had a thriving therapy practice in Los Angeles for many years, and one of his clients is Drew Barrymore, who joins us now. Hi, Drew. Great to see you as always. I know you're taping today there in New York, so thanks for making time for us. You've called Barry one of your greatest influences. Talk about how he has impacted your life and what this moment means.
It's so interesting to listen to everything you're saying. I think that Barry has given that directive and that inertia to certainly me as far as not hiding.
To embrace what you are going through as not a victim, to look at your choices and see how they are affecting you. And Barry has never been one to tell me at least what I should do or when I should do it or how I should do it or who to do it with. It's in his practice and I think the succinct way that he explains the tools in this book. I have studied certain tools with him for over 15 years.
And the way he writes them in this book is so light bulb because the tools are so incredible and so effective. And I am so glad that he did not hold himself back or close himself off as he would do in his home growing up because that's exactly what he has done for all of his patients. Certainly me. I should stay in my own lane and speak for myself. And I think with this book and certainly what I've experienced over the last three years since his diagnosis, speaking to him on a weekly basis, is that he is opening more. And thanks to this book, as you so perfectly put it, we have this evidence of a choice that we can make when something comes in our path that is either detrimental and the end or the beginning of something.
And so it's all in keeping with the Barry I know.
Well, I know you went through a difficult divorce in 2016, I think it was. And do you believe as Barry does that challenges, crisis, difficulties show up to reveal a greater truth? Did you find that or was he a help in allowing you to excavate that for yourself?
I think it's the perfect balance of accountability. He helped me see what my choices and patterns were because if something keeps presenting itself over and over, what is your part in this?
And also that if this is continuing to present itself and it is not of your doing, it is there because you have not mastered it yet.
And there are tools and a road map to get there. And it is looking at yourself and doing this very focused work that has a tangible guidance to it.
And I have hit rock bottom the hardest in my life at that point. And I thought I had hit rock bottom at 13 and this was so much bigger than that.
I know you stopped working with Drew for a while because of her drinking during that time and as a therapist, was that difficult for you as a decision?
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's always — I mean, especially because I love Drew. It was hard to say, 'I'm not going to work. I can't do this.' But I just felt like, honestly, I felt like I owed it to her and to myself, like we just weren't making progress and I knew we wouldn't until she stopped.
Yeah. And you took that seriously.
It was the best thing that could have happened to me. I've never respected a human being more because it demonstrated something for me that I could not understand, which is to have a level of self-respect, to know you're not getting somewhere with someone or anywhere and you will not until things change. And it taught me a boundary that I just never knew growing up. My life was boundaryless. My job was boundaryless. My behavior was boundaryless. And it also, in not having parents or siblings, for me I think it is what I would think of as a familial way to care about someone, which is I recognize this in you and I no longer will stand around and watch it.
Yeah. So what have you learned watching Barry move through this devastating illness? I mean, as I opened this conversation, is there anything worse we can hear than you're going to lose yourself?
Well, thanks to Barry, being on this journey with him, reading his book, speaking to him about it, it gave me confidence and courage in our sessions to ask how he's doing. And through being with him in the last few years, he has helped me understand that we can make peace with things and our greatest devastations can become our greatest strengths.
We lack control in this world and in this life and it just scares us into paralysis.
And this is the opposite of that.
So, I have to say it's incredible what you've been able to actually learn from each other, right?
So, thank you, Drew Barrymore. Thank you so much for joining us. I know you got to get back to work.
Thank you for having me always, anytime, anywhere. Goodbye. And I love you, Barry. Thank you so much. Bye.
Maybe you're feeling it, too. With so many ways to reach each other, it can be easy to mistake being reachable for being truly connected. But I've learned that what many people are longing for is just to be heard, truly heard by another person. That's what we're trying to do here on the Oprah podcast. I see you contemplating and I can see that you're seeing yourself a different way after he said that. Making space for real connection because every time we stop and actually listen to each other, something shifts, something opens. AT&T believes that, too. The right connection at the right moment between the right people can change the course of a day, a relationship, and even a whole life. So the next time you reach for your phone to call someone you love, know that AT&T is with you. Keeping that connection strong because AT&T is there when the connection matters and connecting changes everything.
So as we were speaking earlier, you're still seeing patients. How has this journey changed you as a therapist?
You know, I'm much more open than I've ever been before, not just with my patients, but with my friends, with really with everybody. I think it's also strangely and maybe paradoxically, it's made me trust my instincts more, possibly because I can't really rely on my intellect as faithfully as I used to.
So, in the absence of that, I have to sort of close my eyes and listen and hear what's coming up inside of me and say that.
It's a great thing actually. I mean, I don't always trust that something's going to come up. You know, sometimes I'm just sitting there waiting like, what's going to happen here? But you know, more often than not, something does come up. And I love those insights. They're much better than the ones that I come up with.
How has it changed the way you see every day? Has it changed the way you look at life? You know...
It's a really good question. I'm not sure. I'm not sure it's changed the way I look at life. I appreciate life so much more than I...
Okay. So, it's changed the way you appreciate life.
Yes. Yes. It just feels so precious to me. So much more so than it used to.
And the diagnosis is what you — that says...
You have how many years before you?
