NAPABA Coffee House Episode 5: Don Liu, Chief Legal and Risk Officer at Target

Welcome to episode 5 of Napava Coffee House, presented by NAPABA, the National Asian Pacific American Bar Association, in collaboration with the Harvard Law School Center on the Legal Profession. My name is Genevieve Fantono. I'm in the Harvard Law School class of 2022, and I'm producing this project as part of my student fellowship with the HLS Center on the Legal Profession. It is my great pleasure to introduce you to our host, Laurence, and our guest, Don Liu. As most of you know, our wonderful host Larry is an experienced C-suite executive. His extensive and super impressive background includes serving as the chief... recognized brands and one of America's leading retailers. Prior to joining Target, Don was the General Counsel at Xerox Corporation. He has also held in-house leadership roles at Toll Brothers, Icon Office Solutions, and Aetna US Healthcare. Don is a graduate of Columbia Law School and Haverford College, where he majored in philosophy and religion. I've spoken to Don a couple of times, and what I love about every single interaction with him is that one, he's really funny, and two, he's very direct and straightforward about his own weaknesses. So Don would casually say things like, 'Oh, I was not a model student in high school,' or 'I wanted to go to theology school, but my friends were like, dude, you like to sin.' I think that's just wonderful. In my personal experience, I think that the scariest type of people are the ones who think that they are already good and that they can do no wrong, because these are the same guys who will make excuses and point fingers and blame everyone but themselves. On the flip side, I think that the ability to be honest and transparent about your own weaknesses takes tremendous strength and is a tremendous strength, because it's only when you're able to look in the mirror and say, 'Yeah, you're not so perfect,' that you're able to start taking ownership and taking accountability, and only then are you able to start making changes and making progress. And so I think that we all can learn so... further ado, here is Larry and Don.

So, let me start by welcoming you down to our series. I have good authority, by the way, that you were probably behind this whole thing and were involved in the genesis of the program. So I think it's only fitting that... I'm not sure, but regardless, I think it's only fitting because of that which I have on good authority that we you should show up today and pay your dues. But all kidding aside, you've been a path breaker and leader in the Asian legal community for a heck of a long time, and we are truly honored to have you here today. So thank you for joining our... came here with your family at the age of 10 speaking not a word or maybe two words of English, and you found yourself plopped down in Philadelphia somewhere having to navigate your way. So tell us about those early years in the US.

So what brought your parents to the US, and why did they come, and what were their hopes and aspirations for themselves but also for you?

You came and you never went back. I mean, even though that was the plan, right?

So you were ready to jettison him if you... owners in the US, right? So I mean, they had a very frantic life, and you were left handling the home front, as I understand.

Initially, I was not... now if you look at my resume, you might think that I did okay, but at the very beginning, I was up until sophomore in high school a star in my wood shop and metal shop classes, which is what I really focused on. Honors English, honors math was not even close to what was on my curriculum.

I was not a model student at all. So model minority, I was not. You know, a lot... I've asked a lot of our... of people don't know this, and you explored something that very few people know about. My Korean name is... stands for the word 'east.' And in the Chinese character, it literally means 'east,' and 'Han' stands for 'law.' So if you literally translate my Korean name, it's 'the law of the east.' And my parents thought it would make sense for me to be a lawyer, which is what they thought I would become if I had stayed in Korea. Now you might ask, why law? And that's because back in the '60s and '70s, law, lawyer was considered... law of the east, and you became a western lawyer.

So you said earlier that you had an epiphany earlier in life that turned you into becoming a good student and then led your pathway into college. So what epiphany led you away from the ministerial path?

And then later you obviously came to the realization that the ministry and preaching was really not your calling. So how did that light bulb go off?

Well, it was also rather, I would say, a student calculating on your part because you had a goal in mind. You thought this would probably get you there faster or you'd have better odds of it.

So I gather some friends of yours at some point persuaded you that given your personality and temperament and predilections and how you spent your free time, that being a minister was really not your true calling.

Yeah, yeah. And then you actually made a change for a very deliberate reason. Again, it was a sort of a thoughtful choice you made in terms of how to navigate your career, what you wanted to accomplish.

A lot since those early days, but you bring back a lot of memories. So let's now turn to the chapter in your career where you went in-house. I mean, for you, by my count, you ended up at five different roles in roughly 30 years. And so there was a succession of jobs of increasing complexity, scale, global reach. And let's talk about that. I don't want to dwell on each step too long, but let's take the first job you took and tell us why you made the choices you did and what were the factors that influenced you.

Yeah, so it brought you home to Philadelphia, which you wanted to do, and I think you were also sort of the one-person corporate department, right? And you had a front row seat to what happened.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great point because I think those folks will come back to you over and over again throughout your career. And so taking the calls and being polite and listening to them, I think, pays a lot of dividends. But I think you give yourself a little too little credit because my recollection is that when you took the Aetna job, you actually turned down some other opportunities with larger companies, or you would have had a smaller role. My recollection is that by taking the job with the smaller company, you actually got a much better training for the GC job that you got seven years down the road.

Yeah, yeah. So then on to Toll Brothers for a brief tour before the next big job. So tell us about that transition.

Two years later, you found yourself at Xerox. So that was another big quantum leap up. Tell us about that and how that happened.

Well, listen, let's talk about that. We can spend another hour talking about your job at Xerox because that was... that happened and how you evaluated that choice that was in front of you.

Yeah, yeah. And how's it been for you? You've been here for six years. How's it going?

Retail space. So Don, you've had a lot of jobs. You've made a lot of changes. And when anyone looks at your resume, they see this constant progression into greater scope and responsibility. But as you and I've discussed, the process of considering other opportunities, searching for jobs, turning them down, getting turned down, dealing with your family, all of that is emotionally exhausting and extremely time-consuming. So what advice would you give people who are thinking about a job change in terms of how to think about the various factors and how to weigh them?

Those are great words of advice. You learn from all of the various things you had to go through as you navigated your career. Earlier we talked a little bit about, I joked a little bit about self-awareness and about the importance of knowing yourself in order to get better at the things that you don't do well at and to get over things and maybe impediments to your growth. Now... I was a pretty lousy GC. I mean, I told you I was not mature, I wasn't ready for a host of reasons. I remember getting my first 360 results, and it was painful.

The 360 is an anonymous assessment done by your boss, your colleagues, and those people who work for you. And obviously if the people who are going to work for you are going to be honest in assessing your strengths and weaknesses, it better be anonymous, otherwise it could be very awkward. So what my team told me was that I was at times arrogant, I was intimidating, and I was not a good listener. I looked at... of course handsome, tall, good-looking, right? Good listener? I'm interested in what you have to say, of course only if it makes sense to me and if you make great points. And if you didn't, I belittled you. And that was our lousy leadership skills.

Of course I said, 'Look, obviously there were a few people who didn't understand what I was trying to do, or they misunderstood what I was trying...' and some of the people did. Some people actually said, 'I said this, and the reason I said this was for the following reasons.' And I said, 'Give me an example.' Well, remember the time you asked me to write a memo describing everything that outlines from the probable to the unlikely and give you all the different options? Yes. 'What did you say when I finally gave you the five different paths we could go?' 'I don't remember,' he said. 'Are you serious? Two of those options, you really mean it?' Oh yeah, I did say that. 'Well, boss, you told me to write down all the different options including...' you meeting my request. By the way, Don, I have to say it took amazing courage for your team to be able to have that honest conversation with you. I mean, that itself said something about you because they must have known that they could do that without repercussion.

Remember every time I move jobs, I'm cleaning out my files and printing out everything so that you throw out things you don't need. And every time I run into that particular 360 results, I go, 'I need to keep this.' Because it's a great reminder of my weaknesses, my gap that I have to constantly address and think about. Because you don't really change. You who you are, what you are, rarely become totally different. You can manage it... all of those tendencies come out in full force. I do, I really do. I mean, every time things go wrong or every time I get upset, these tendencies creep out, and I have to constantly remind myself I can't do that. So I have some tricks I learned. When somebody tells me something really stupid, I count to 10 before I respond, which is a trick that I learned in year 2000. And I go on a two, and by the time I count 10, it doesn't sound as bad.

Well, there are so many leaders like you who have been such instrumental forces behind NAPABA that you guys deserve a lot of credit. So thank you for everything you do there, and you too, Larry.