Earl, a lot's happened in the autonomous trucking space. A lot of regulations, a lot of change on the horizon. How are you currently thinking about autonomous trucking from a policy perspective?
Grayson, first of all, thanks for letting me on today. Really excited about this conversation. And I think it kind of reflects on how I'm feeling about the industry from a regulatory standpoint right now. Very optimistic. I mean, we are seeing movement on both the federal and the state level, which is, and frankly, it's in a bipartisan way. And so, you know, this means I think that the industry is in a really good place. We got a long way to go before we have a set of comprehensive guardrails for the nation, but the last several weeks have really, we've been moving in the right direction in my mind. We're definitely moving in the right direction.
On April 24th, Secretary Duffy, Secretary of Transportation, came out and did the automated vehicle framework. But Duffy did not talk about trucks weighing over 10,001 gross pounds. Why do you think that is?
I think it's just a matter of timing. You know, we were pretty certain in the industry that the two items, more flexibility with respect to the certification process and revisions to the SGO, we were pretty certain that that was going to happen with the change of administration. And so I think that what we saw with that announcement was step one in what is going to be a multi-step process. You know, if you listen to the secretary's announcement, you know, he talked about the initiative, the entire plan, and I think that we'll get more clarity on that. The innovation plan is what he called it. I think we'll get more clarity on that, including heavy duty trucks, you know, in short order. At least that's my hope.
Are you concerned at all with the reports around Shawn O'Brien, the head of the Teamsters, meeting with President Trump on a regular basis, that there could be some labor influence that could influence autonomous trucking policy?
There is definitely going to be labor influence impacting autonomous trucking policy. To think otherwise would be naive. You know, that said, I think that there has been clear indication from the secretary and from the president that autonomy is the future and, you know, that they believe that there's value to having a framework by which the industry can develop. Now, you know, the nuances or, you know, how this is going to sort of come to play relative to labor, you know, we have to wait and see. But, you know, what I know is that at Plus, you know, the outreach and the interactions that I've had, and I think this is fair to say across the industry, is that we're ready to have the conversation with labor because we've got to work together. We've got to be able to talk about the upskilling of jobs, new jobs that are going to be created as a result of our autonomy. And so, you know, I don't see it as a negative or a harbinger of something negative, but I see it as just a part of the normal process. You know, the reality is that the administration, back to your question about timing, you know, they have two proposals that are sitting on the shelf right now. A proposal, an NPRM from the first Trump administration and an NPRM from the prior administration. And so they've got a framework. You may just need to decide what the first step is going to be. And I do think that it's fair that you may have influences not just from labor but also from safety advocates that are going to, you know, advocate as best as they can to perhaps limit, you know, the scope of that first rule. But to be honest with you, Grayson, I've always said, even in my prior life when I was in the prior administration, that we know that regulations for autonomy, it's going to be an iterative process, meaning it's going to be multiple rules. So I don't expect that this first rule or this first proposal is going to be the only one. It is going to represent hopefully a first step that will establish sort of a baseline for the safe operation of L4 trucks, but it's not going to be the last. So, you know, I'm ready to have the conversation, APTA is ready to have the conversation around the jobs issues, and I think the industry is as well. So we just, again, we have to wait and see. But even with that, the presence of Mr. O'Brien, you know, and the relationship that he may have with the president, I'm still very optimistic.
Optimistic is the way to be. The industry as a whole is very optimistic. I'm very optimistic. And reading the transcripts from several speeches that Secretary Duffy has given, he's highlighted economics quite a bit, the positive economic impact that automation and autonomy will have on the US economy. Do you feel that could be a driving force as the secretary is out there talking about the economic message?
Without a doubt. I mean, when we look at Plus, when we talk about the benefits of autonomy, you know, we talk about obviously the safety benefits, which have to always be the north star. We talk about the sustainability benefits, so from an energy sustainability perspective, but we without question talk about the economics of autonomy. And what we know is that, you know, as a result of using autonomous vehicles from a trucking bottom line perspective, you know, there is significant benefits, economic benefits. You know, some have projected it at, you know, as much as a dollar, $1.50 less per mile driven. And so, you know, when you're talking about that type of overall economic, you know, sort of value add, it can have ripple effects which will actually go towards, you know, creating better jobs, creating better paying jobs. You know, they would have that ripple effect within this economic sector. And so, you know, I'm not surprised that they're talking about the economics of benefits of autonomy. I mean, we definitely understand it and we see it, and that's one of the things that we engage with our customers, with our OEM partners. And so yeah, the economics are definitely a part of the discussion, but just as much as the safety benefits and the energy sustainability benefits.
If you look at it, staying on the economic theme, if you look at it from a local community standpoint, a lot of the over-the-road, let's say the multi-day trips, those are going to become automated. And those drivers will do the last 100 miles, 50 miles, and they'll go home to their family at night. They'll go to church Sunday. Perhaps they'll go to a little league game on the weekend with their children instead of having to be on the road, because that's what autonomy is going to enable. On the economic front, now they're going to go to the local diner. They may go to the local ice cream store. You're going to have a lot of positive economic impacts on that community. And Earl, we had a very fascinating chat at Ford Fort Worth hosted by Mr. Ross Bro Jr. and Ian Kitty. And you said something that really, really resonated with me that I want to highlight on this podcast. Plus is getting ready to deploy DriveRoute 2027 commercial operations from San Antonio to Dallas with your partners. You mentioned that you're going community by community, speaking to local officials, elected officials, first responders, to build that trust. What has been the impact on those conversations that you've been having across Texas?
Well, Grayson, I appreciate you bringing that up. And, you know, I joined Plus in January of this year, having had a career in both federal government and state government. And what I know from that experience is that, you know, regular communication and engagement of local officials is key because those are the individuals that are going to, you know, it's their constituents who are going to be impacted by whatever the change happens to be. And so one of the things that when I joined the team at Plus and I made it, you know, sort of laid out my vision and goal for how I was going to help prepare Plus as we move towards our commercial deployment date, I said, you know what, I want to be in Texas. I want to be on the ground talking to not only elected officials, but business leaders. I'm talking to community leaders, community organizations. I'm going to community colleges, technical colleges. So I'm talking to the entire array of individuals that are along that I-35 right now, the I-35 corridor, but really it's going to be the Texas triangle. So that's, you know, San Antonio, Houston, Dallas, talking to all of these various stakeholders about Plus, introducing them, you know, many, introducing us to many of them, but also with the purpose of hearing from them as to how they see the impacts of autonomy on their communities. And then, you know, what I'm working with our team here at Plus is how can we go about addressing that as best we can. So, one example, when it comes to congestion along I-35, so anyone who's driven from San Antonio to Dallas, you know, through Austin, knows that there is a significant amount of road construction right now on that road. And so, I was just having a conversation yesterday with the mayor pro tem of Austin where she referenced this, and I said, you know, Madam Mayor, you know, we've heard this, and so as a result, we're now looking at alternative highways. So, it's State Highway 130, which really is parallel to I-35. You know, our engineers are looking at how we can move some of our testing to State Highway 130, excuse me, as just a sort of example of how, you know, through that feedback loop, we can then make adjustments, which we think show that we are a good, you know, a good partner, a good local partner. We're also looking at, you know, the same thing exists between Dallas and Houston. So, you know, from a timing, you know, when the testing happens, so we are able to make adjustments, is my point, by virtue of getting this feedback from local leaders. One other example, I had a conversation with the members of a local chamber of commerce, and they were talking about their members who are truck drivers, who are motor carriers, and wanting to understand, well, how is it that, you know, these smaller motor carriers can take advantage of the economic benefits that you talk about with autonomy? And, you know, what I was able to reference to him is kind of explain what we see as the life cycle of the rollout for autonomous trucks, and that, you know, for a, the reality is, is that even with a 2027 commercial deployment, whether it's us or others within the industry, you know, it's not going to be zero trucks to 700,000 trucks, you know, it's going to be a gradual process. And so I said, you know, we have the ability to help them plan, you know, we have the ability to make introductions to our OEM partners so that they can plan out what the next three to five years look like for their company. So, I'm getting a lot of good feedback, and I'm really happy with the work so far. But there's more to do, you know, as we are, you know, over the next 18 months really ramping up our engagement in Texas.
You're a good steward of the community. I mean, that's truly what this comes down to. And Neth Prasad is doing a fantastic job running SH 130, and he really wants to make it the home of autonomous trucking, and that's that engagement there that happened at Ford Fort Worth. Community colleges are interesting. When you're meeting with the community colleges, are you having conversations around career paths, paths for jobs, the new skills that are going to have to be learned in this industry? Perhaps they set up an enhanced inspection program at the college where that individual can become certified and get a job. What are those conversations like?
You hit it right on the head. That's exactly what those conversations are about, is what we see as the future of what would be the career path for someone in trucking. The community colleges, the technical schools, they are, you know, prime, especially in Texas where there's a lot of state support that these institutions receive for job training and job skills. So, you know, we're going to continue to engage. I think that there's still, you know, we're still trying to understand what the full range of jobs look like, but the enhanced pre-trip inspections, what you're talking about, you know, I think that when I think about the jobs, whether it's in maintenance, whether it's in emergency dispatch, you know, understanding the technology, you know, those are the types of skills that I think that folks are going to need. And frankly, because of the economic benefits, you know, these are going to become really good paying jobs that are going to be reliable. They're going to, frankly, you know, relative to the on-the-road driving now, they're going to be better jobs. And so I, you know, in that respect, I have found that the reception for whether it's technical schools, community colleges, or even organizations like the Urban League, which create pipeline programs, has been very, very positive.
It is positive. And let's look at a marker in an industry similar to yours, automotive. Tesla has made more millionaires, including factory workers on the factory line, than any automotive company in history. That's impactful because of stock options. If you look at the growth of the autonomous trucking industry, Plus, you could start minting millionaires, individuals that work on trucks, because you're giving them financial stability. And that's a big part of it. And it's an issue that our listeners and viewers know that I harp on all the time. You're giving these individuals a path to a very viable, profitable career without, ready for this, the overhang of student debt. And that is impactful because they no longer have that chain around their neck where they can never grow, never afford to buy a home. You're giving them a path to financial freedom. That's what you're doing.
So, I oftentimes talk about the three E's at Plus is what I'm doing. You know, it's the education, it's the exposure, and it's evaluation. So we try to educate as many folks as we can about Plus, about the benefits of autonomy, expose them to autonomy, and then provide the data for them to be able to make the evaluation. But the fourth one is evangelism, and you just hit it right on the head. It's talking about the broad benefits, opening up the range of opportunities that this new technology, you know, can bring to bear. It can be scary. And again, I will take it on as deputy administrator, FMCSA. You know, I never shied away from a hard conversation from my good friends at OIDA or even at Labor. But, and I get it, it's scary, it's new, but the reality is, and you just hit it on the head, this has the potential of creating, let's not, we don't have to go to the millionaire, that's the extreme, but it's the new middle class. That if you think about a hundred years ago and what did the automotive industry do? It created the middle class in the Midwest in the US. That's what it did. And I think that we have the same potential here at a scale that has not been seen in a very long time. So that evangelism is right on. And I don't think that it's overblown. I think that it is a real, legitimate, incredible sort of points to make and to remind people, you know, that from an economic standpoint, autonomy can and will be beneficial.
The automotive industry made Detroit, and I'm going to get a little controversial, and made Windsor, Canada. I know there's tariffs, but the automotive industry made Windsor, Canada. Could autonomous trucking have that similar impact on the Dallas-Fort Worth region since everybody has facilities there?
I actually believe that that's very possible. And in fact, you know, we heard from the folks at Fort Worth, you know, the leaning in around our building, not only are they supporting, and just from a real estate standpoint, the businesses, but they're also building out an infrastructure. And it's that infrastructure that's the knock-on economic impact that you're talking about. So you don't actually have to be in the autonomous vehicle space, but you could be on the electrical side that is hoping to reinforce the grid in order to support the level of energy that's necessary for these vehicles to exist. You can find yourself as part of, I recently heard from the folks at Pinsky and other companies that are going to be doing the potential support of the vehicles on the road, you know, to go out to do emergency dispatch, etc. You know, there are going to be all of these sort of ancillary type industries that build. And the Dallas folks, Fort Worth, I mean, they are definitely, you know, they're eager, as I like to say, they are leaning in on the potential economic benefits that they think that can happen. You know, I am beginning my inroads into the Houston area. I'm sure that I'll hear the same thing in Houston as well as San Antonio. So, you know, this is a, I said yesterday at, we here at Plus, is we have a booth at the ACT Expo in Anaheim this week where we made several announcements relating to our driver-out test that we did on a closed course at TRC and partnerships with Hyundai. But, you know, I made the point yesterday that, you know, it's not an inflection point. We are beyond the inflection point right now, which is a great thing. You know, the future is now. And I think that as we, you know, continue to talk about all of the great benefits that can come from autonomy, you know, we just have to be patient in some respects, but we also have to realize that things are going today and we need to be prepared to deal with all of these benefits that can come in very short order.
Yourself and your colleagues across the industry are doing a really good job of especially preparing policymakers and local elected officials for this technology. You're down in Anaheim. You're across the street from Disneyland. I know you didn't go, but I still got to give a plug for Disneyland. Your name is Plus, and Walt Disney had the famous line when he told his engineers to go build something, they would come back and he'd go, 'Plus it.' So, I'm going to ask you to plus this question, Earl. The California, I was shocked when I read this. The California DMV has opened a rulemaking to allow the testing and commercialization of autonomous trucks with a gross weight over 10,001 lbs on public roads. Does California see what's coming or what's being built in Texas? What, wait a second, we can't let any more jobs go to Texas. We're going to lean in here and clear a regulatory path. So, I don't know if it's necessarily that they don't want to see, they see the jobs leaving. It's possible that that's not my, that's not my wheelhouse. But what I will say is this, is that when in the prior administration, I had many conversations with the folks at California DMV and they knew then about the importance of having a regulatory framework for heavy duty trucks to operate on public roads. I think that what we're seeing now is sort of the result of just the regulatory lag. It just takes a while for things to happen. But, you know, I think that, you know, as I said at the top, I think it's a really good development. I think that this is a clear indication that the state knows and appreciates, as I said, that the future is now, that, you know, whether you, I mean, California is the center of the development, the software development of this technology. And so to say that companies have to then take their tech and test it somewhere else, you know, that's, there's sort of a, there's an inefficiency built within that. And I think that, you know, what we're seeing with California's movement here is a strong indication that they understand that there needs to be able to be the complete life cycle that can occur on California roads. It's a positive step in the right direction.
California recently passed Japan to become the fourth largest economy in the world. That's impressive. Yes, pat yourselves on the back. But having lived half my life in California, I said, 'Okay, there's something doesn't add up here.' Are we going to see carveouts where perhaps the autonomous trucks cannot operate in the ports? Or do we get the monster carveout that could come, they can't operate in the Inland Empire because of all the warehouses? Do we get some weird regulatory carveout? Because California's known to do that from various different things.
I've heard that before. Yes. California, I've always, you know, whenever I would talk to my team at FMCSA, we would always say, you know, okay, here's what we're going to do in the country, but then California, you know, you have to sort of appreciate that reality. You know, I'm going to remain optimistic. I'm going to remain, you know, very hopeful that we don't see unnecessary carveouts. At the same time, though, Grayson, the industry can handle whatever, you know, the state may do. I think the most important thing is that we're able to do our testing and we can make the claim and the point that deployment can occur on public roads. I think that the market will adjust accordingly if there are carveouts. At the same time, you know, and we really haven't touched on this piece, you know, we know that the federal government hopefully, as I said, will do its own regulatory framework. And if that occurs, I mean, there's very much a possibility of state preemption, which would mean that, you know, the federal law would preempt any state activity. So, you know, we have to just wait and see what occurs. But the bottom line is I think that as an industry, we can handle it. And what we're really just happy about is the fact that California, which is headquartered to the vast majority of the companies that are developing this new technology, is going to create a path for us to have our trucks on the road for testing on.
You could make the argument the California DMV is reading the tea leaves. They understand preemption very well, that a federal framework is coming. Are they trying to perhaps get ahead of that? Is that what you think might be happening?
