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Arthur Brooks
Professor, Vanderbilt University; Senior Fellow, Harvard Business School, Vanderbilt University

How to Find Happiness ft. Arthur Brooks

📅 Sep 14, 2026 Institute of Politics at Harvard Kennedy School 62 MIN 4466 VIEWS 106 SEGMENTS · 11 SPEAKERS
Millions today describe a growing sense of emptiness; in short, a lack of meaning. And there’s a reason: Rapid cultural, economic, and technological changes have rewired our brains, which has rendered the why of life—its coherence, purpose, and significance—out of reach. This is a discussion on how to push back against these changes and find personal meaning that contributes to a fulfilling life and greater capacity for leadership and service. Featuring: Moderator Anthony Foxx, Director of the Center for Public Leadership Arthur Brooks, who teaches the science of happiness at Harvard Universi...

What Arthur Brooks said

Written from the verified transcript and checked against it. Every figure links to the moment it was said.

Arthur Brooks, a professor at Vanderbilt and senior fellow at Harvard Business School, discussed his book 'The Meaning of Your Life' and the 'age of emptiness' he attributes to a cultural shift toward engineering solutions for complex human needs, particularly through smartphones. He argued that happiness comprises enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning, and that a 'meaning crisis' has grown since 2008, with 50% of young adults now reporting their lives feel meaningless. Brooks explained that the right brain handles complex 'why' questions while the left brain handles complicated 'how-to' tasks, and that phone use overactivates the left brain, breaking our ability to find meaning. He shared personal strategies, including a 'go deep or go home' social policy, and advised leaders to prioritize faith, family, and real friendships. On AI, he echoed the Pope's view that it should make us more human, not less, and warned against using it for simulated love. He rejected Bhutan's Gross National Happiness Index as a policy goal, advocating instead for individual responsibility and love.

Key takeaways

  1. Brooks said 50% of young adults now report their lives feel meaningless, up from 15% before 2008, attributing this to smartphone-driven cultural changes.
  2. He stated that the average American checks their phone 205 times a day, which he says activates the left brain where meaning is absent.
  3. Brooks claimed his own happiness has risen by 60% over the past seven years through learning, practicing, and teaching happiness science.
  4. Brooks rejected Bhutan's Gross National Happiness Index as a policy model, saying happiness cannot be scaled up collectively.

Numbers and commitments

FigureWhat it refers toTypeAt
50% of young adults reporting their lives feel meaningless metric 8:46
15% of young adults reporting meaningless lives before 2008 metric 8:46
205 times a day average American phone checks per day metric 10:58
60% increase in Brooks' happiness over seven years metric 18:45
200,000 miles a year Brooks' annual travel distance metric 43:38
20 times times Brooks and his wife have moved in 35 years of marriage metric 42:13
48 weeks a year weeks per year Brooks is on the road metric 43:38

Chapters

  1. 0:00The age of emptiness
  2. 8:46The meaning crisis and smartphones
  3. 10:58Hemispheric lateralization and broken brains
  4. 13:43Repairing the brain and personal happiness
  5. 21:50Scaling happiness and policy limits
  6. 25:03Happiness for public leaders
  7. 30:14AI and human meaning
  8. 37:45Grief and loss
  9. 41:47Go deep or go home philosophy
  10. 48:36Higher education and inquiry

Questions asked in this interview

12
  1. 1:52So how exactly should we go about instilling purpose in our lives, and maybe even more importantly, how exactly can we help others who are struggling to find theirs?
  2. 3:34Where do you trace the emptiness?
  3. 16:23And should we really listen to you?
  4. 21:50So how much of it is we as individuals can read what you write, practice in our lives, teach other people?
  5. 22:08Is there a scaled version of this?
  6. 25:12How important is happiness to them in their career paths, and what would you advise them to do now?
  7. 29:31You know, when I started in the White House, they showed me what happens on the worst day the country could ever face, right?
  8. 30:18And does it further evidence the diminishment of meaning that we're having these conversations at this point?
  9. 34:56In times of uncertainty and crisis, when basic security itself may be threatened, how can individuals and societies cultivate authentic happiness without ignoring the suffering around them?
  10. 41:47In what settings does it tend to work?
  11. 51:31Do you think that we should follow their lead?
  12. 56:05What are your thoughts on how your meaning of life can change and how do you kind of work through that?
Alex Levy 0:02 ↗
And welcome to the John F. Kennedy Junior Forum at the Institute of Politics. My name is Alex Levy. I'm a sophomore studying government at the college and I'm a member of the JFK Junior Forum Committee. Before we begin, please note the exit doors, which are located both on the park side and the JFK Street side of the forum. In the event of an emergency, walk to the exit closest to you and congregate in the JFK Park. Tonight's program will be livestreamed and archived online and will include an audience Q&A segment. Audience members asking questions are asked to identify themselves if they wish, but they are not required to do so. Please also take a moment now to silence your cell phones and join me in welcoming Harvard College undergraduate Matteo Gaglieri.
Matteo Gaglieri 0:47 ↗
Good evening, everyone. My name is Matteo Gaglieri. I am a senior at the college studying applied math to computer science with economics, and I'm a member of the John F. Kennedy Junior Forum Student Committee. It is my pleasure this evening to welcome you all to this incredible conversation about leadership and meaning between two truly incredible speakers. But before that, some numbers: today, more than 45% of Gen Z report a distinct lack of meaning in their day-to-day lives. Now, zooming out, the same numbers hold for young adults between the ages of 18 and 25. When it comes to these people, they see their lives, they describe the patterns of their daily lives as simply being wake up, work, scroll, and repeat. Now, just adding fuel to the fire of this conversation have definitely been all these incredible changes that we have witnessed over the past few years. Despite myself, of course, being a naive 20-something-year-old student, with the few years of experience that I do have, I can definitely attest to the fact that these changes, when it comes to technology, to culture, and to the geopolitical changes, are definitely undeniable.
So how exactly should we go about instilling purpose in our lives, and maybe even more importantly, how exactly can we help others who are struggling to find theirs? To address and answer this question tonight, we have two exceptional speakers. Arthur Brooks is an American social scientist, an author, and professor whose work sits at the intersection of public policy, leadership, and human happiness. He is a New York Times best-selling author, a current professor at Vanderbilt, as well as a senior fellow over at the Harvard Business School. He is also a Hauser Leader at the Center for Public Leadership. And last spring, he published the book, "The Meaning of Your Life," of which I'm sure we're going to hear plenty about tonight. Moderating this conversation is Anthony Foxx. Anthony Foxx is the Emma Bloomberg Professor of the Practice of Public Leadership and the Director of the Center for Public Leadership over at the Harvard Kennedy School. Anthony Foxx served as the 17th US Secretary of Transportation between the years of 2013 and 2017, receiving an extremely rare unanimous confirmation by the US Senate. Before that, he served as the 54th mayor of Charlotte, where he led record investments in transportation as well as infrastructure. But now, enough of me. Please join me all in welcoming our fantastic speakers to the stage.
Anthony Foxx 3:23 ↗
Good evening, everyone. It's great to be here with my good friend Arthur Brooks and our Hauser Leader here at the Center for Public Leadership. Thank you for joining us.
Arthur Brooks 3:33 ↗
Thank you.
Anthony Foxx 3:34 ↗
We're going to have a nice conversation tonight about meaning and purpose and leadership. And I want to start by asking a question prompting off of your most recent book, Arthur, which is entitled "The Meaning of Your Life." And then the subtitle is "Finding Purpose in an Age of Emptiness." A lot of important words there, and I want to focus in on "age of emptiness." It's a strong phrase, and yet babies are still being born. People are still crying at funerals, and people still root for their countries to be successful. Where do you trace the emptiness?
Arthur Brooks 4:21 ↗
Thank you, and thanks to all of you. It was so wonderful to be back. For those of you who I'm meeting for the first time, I was a professor here at the Kennedy School for seven years until July 1st. So I'm, you know, I come back and I know the place like the back of my hand, but I'm an outsider now, which is really weird. But it's always wonderful and warm to be here. Truly, this is a great place, and to be part of this community as a Hauser Leader is especially meaningful. So thank you so very much for that. The book that I wrote, it came out at the end of March. "The Meaning of Your Life" is the culmination of about five years of research, but it really comes down to something that I've been noticing for a long time. I was a professor for a very long time until 2008, and then I left for 11 years, and I left to become the president of the American Enterprise Institute, which is a big think tank down in Washington, D.C., and that was completely consuming. I mean, this is, look, this is, you all know a lot about leadership. I mean, the Kennedy School is about public leadership, among other things, and when you're leading a big institution, you're not paying attention to a lot of other things. But what I wasn't seeing was that my old home, academia, was changing.
Now, academia really is my home. My father was a professor. His father was a professor. It's the family business. I grew up on a college campus. And one of the things that I knew, one of the reasons I wanted to be an academic is because academia is happier than the rest of life. It's an oasis. And sort of, this is what people my age, they think, oh, college, man. I mean, it's when I made some of my best friends. That's when I learned all these weird ideas. That's when I fell in love every Thursday. I mean, it was like... And so I went away and I ran this big organization, this big nonprofit organization, and then I retired from it. Didn't retire. I quit. 55 years old, tender age. And Doug Elmendorf, who's here, hired me to be a professor at the Kennedy School. And I came back. It's like, oh, good. I get to go back to the happy place. But it wasn't as happy as it was. It was completely different. Now, I've been studying human happiness for decades. Human happiness is my bag. And one of the things that I've been testing my students on is this idea of whether they have a meaning crisis. Why? Because happiness is not a feeling. People get that wrong all the time. If you're struggling with your happiness, probably it's because you think it's a feeling, which it isn't, any more than the smell of your dinner is your dinner. Feelings are evidence of happiness. Don't go for feelings. Feelings are liars. Go for the macronutrients of happiness, the protein, carbohydrates, and fat of happiness, which are enjoyment of your life, satisfaction with your accomplishments, and the meaning of your life, the why of your life. And for the longest time, decades, I've had a test of meaning to see whether or not you have a meaning crisis, to see if that macronutrient is deficient. It's based on the psychological definition, which is empirically very sound, has a big literature behind it. I won't trouble you with it, but here's the test. I'll give it to you. Why not? This is a two-question exam. If you have answers to these questions, you pass. If you don't have answers, or say there aren't any answers, you fail. And that's okay, because that means now you know what to go looking for, which is good news, too. Okay, here are the two questions. Number one: why are you alive? Now, maybe it's who created you, or for what purpose, or both? You can't Google that question. It's un-Google-able. I'm not sure that's a word. It is now. And why? Because if you put that into ChatGPT, 'Hey, why am I alive?' it'll first start by kissing up to you. It'll first start by saying, 'That's a very astute question. The smartest people in history have asked that question.' And then it'll give you five examples from philosophers that mean nothing to you. Okay? You have to live with that. Sit with that. The second question is easy for people my age and harder for people my students' age, which is: for what would you die right now, happily? Right now, it's easy for me. My kids, my grandkids, totally, right? But I always press people my age: what else would you die for? Your faith? Would you die for your country? Would you die for your beliefs? Would you die for a stranger? And the more that you actually push that, the more meaning finds you. Anyway, so I've been giving this exam for ages.
And I noticed that typically with my graduate students, I've never taught undergraduates, I've only had graduate students, average age 28 for my entire academic career, that they're about 85% pass that test. 15% fail it. Okay, which is once again good news because I know what to put them on the path to. But after 2008, it turns out without me knowing it, that percentage started creeping up. By the time I came back in 2019, 50% of my students were failing that exam. And I looked at the data from a group called Monitoring the Future, which asks the question to young adults, 'Does your life feel meaningless?' And sure enough, about 15% said yes until 2008. And then it started to creep up, and now it's about 50% of young adults say, 'Yeah, my life feels meaningless.' It's almost as if something happened in 2008. It wasn't me leaving academia. It was almost as if something entered our lives. What is it? What can you think of? Something that made it harder for us to connect to other human beings. Made it harder for us to make relationships. Harder to have a real life experience of life. Something that made life into a simulation. Some of you are holding it in your hand right now. And the rest of you have it in your pockets. And some of you are not listening to me right now because you're distracted. But that's what happened. And so what I found was this profound meaning crisis provoked not by your cell phone. It's not provoked by your smartphone. It's provoked by a change in our culture, an engineering culture that basically said that there's an app for that. That there's a complicated solution to your complex life. And what that led me to, believe it or not, the great thing about being a behavioral scientist today is you have a very, very wide interdisciplinary toolkit that spans philosophy, in my case, a lot of Eastern wisdom traditions because I've done a lot of work for the last 13 years with the Tibetan Buddhist community, and very, very far into neuroscience as well. And it led me to the most interesting area of neuroscience today, which is called hemispheric lateralization.
A fancy way of saying your brain has two sides to it and they do different things. Why don't they just say that? Because we got to get tenure. And what hemispheric lateralization shows us is that the right hemisphere of your brain deals with the complex problems of why, the mystery, the meaning, the love, the happiness, your relationships, the things you truly care about. And the left side of your brain deals with the complicated problems of life, of how-to and what, the engineering, the efficiency, the information you didn't ask for, the GPS of your life. And you need both. I mean, this is my, I'm doing my job right now. And it's a lot of how-to and what, I'm explaining neuroscience to you right now. But it wouldn't be worth anything if I didn't have the right hemisphere of my brain saying why, why am I doing this? Because I love the Kennedy School, because I like to support my family, because I care about these ideas, and I'm going back and forth. Why? How-to, and what, and that's an integrated life. But guess what? Every time you look at your phone, which for the average American is 205 times a day, your results may vary, but they probably don't, you have actually kicked your brain activity into the left side of your brain where meaning is absent. We broke our brains, my friends. That's what happened. And a lot of people, my students, they don't remember the before times. I do. I mean, I can't get interested in Instagram. I have a million followers on Instagram and I can't get interested in it because it's boring. Because it's not engaging to my 62-year-old brain. Thank God. My grandkids are more interesting to me than my Instagram feed. But guess what? If that's what you grew up on, then the neural pathways are so fortified and so strong that that's actually the case. And that's what we face today. We have a meaning crisis, which is the number one predictor of depression and anxiety. You'll get a million explanations from the media that depression and anxiety for people under 35 has all these exogenous explanations from environmental degradation to income inequality to, by the way, be worried about those things for sure. We care about those things at the Kennedy School. That's not why people are depressed and anxious. They're depressed and anxious because their brains are broken by the way that they're engaged in an engineering culture that says there's a complicated solution to their complex needs. That there's an app to meet the love and happiness that they actually seek. And that is the age of emptiness.
So, man, when the age of emptiness is an applause line, I'm...
Anthony Foxx 13:34 ↗
Yeah, right.
Arthur Brooks 13:35 ↗
I'm in the zone, man. Yeah.
Anthony Foxx 13:39 ↗
I think they're applauding your observations about it.
Arthur Brooks 13:41 ↗
Okay. All right. Thank you.
Anthony Foxx 13:43 ↗
Now, if our brains are broken, can they be repaired? Is a conversation with someone likely to inspire something in a young person who's phone-addicted, as you're talking about?
Arthur Brooks 13:58 ↗
Yeah. And I wouldn't have written a book if the answer were no. I don't write doom books. There's enough doom out there to go around. It really, the way that the book works is an explanation of the problem and proof that it exists. Then the neuroscience of how our brains are broken. Hemispheric lateralization, left, right, what's a complicated problem, what's a complex problem, how life has become a simulation, how we're living effectively in the matrix, a left-brain simulation for the right-brain cravings for love that we need. But two-thirds of this book is the solutions to it. And it's based on the best neuroscience and behavioral science literature that shows how you can activate the right hemisphere of your brain, which happened automatically. I mean, my great-grandfather, Leroy Brooks, he didn't have to activate the right brain. He was just like plowing the fields behind a mule with no podcast to listen to, not even mine. He was just doing his life and he was coming home. And his life, by the way, his life was super boring moment to moment, but his life overall was really interesting. The irony is for a lot of people today, there's no boredom moment to moment, but life is grindingly boring. That's the problem. I mean, that's life in the matrix, by the way. That's the plot of that movie in 1999, where a far-out, you know, super science fiction artificial intelligence was sucking the energy out of people by keeping them pacified in a simulation where they wouldn't move so we could take their energy and attention. My friends, we're in the matrix. It happened. We're in the matrix is the whole problem. And that wasn't even a thing. So what used to be the ordinary life of boredom and love and relationships and experiences in real life, your brain is made to interact with people in real life. Your brain is not made and cannot accommodate virtual experiences to the screen. They are not a substitute for the love that you want. And so the result of it is we have to live like my great-grandfather Leroy Brooks, who never came home to his wife, my great-grandmother Mary Ellen, I am sure, and said, 'Honey, I had a panic attack behind the mule today.' Maybe you had a panic attack. No joke, but there's a reason it's happening now and it wasn't happening then. And that's what we actually have to repair by living in a distinctly old-fashioned way.
Anthony Foxx 16:23 ↗
Arthur, before we go any further, I want to pull up a quotation from you. You once wrote, 'I choose to study happiness because I was failing at it.' Are you doing better with it now? And should we really listen to you?
Arthur Brooks 16:38 ↗
Yeah. No, it's a good point. It's a good point. I mean, I wouldn't have much credibility if I were a barber. Let that sink in. Anyway, so I actually, you know, it's one of the great things about behavioral science is you study what you need, right? If I were a physicist, I wouldn't, you know, study what I needed because we all need more or less the same things when it comes to the laws of physical science. But in behavioral science, you can study the thing that's actually most lacking in your life. It's, the old joke is, it's not research, it's me-search, what it comes down to. And what happened was I had a very interesting experience when I was leaving the think tank and coming here, which is what am I going to dedicate my research activity to? And I had this very fundamentally, you know, very profound emotional experience. I overheard a conversation on a plane where there was a couple behind me on a plane very late at night, so it was dark and I couldn't see them, but I could hear them. And I could tell by their voices it was a man and a woman. I assumed they were a couple. I could tell by their voices they were elderly. And the man's voice was a little muffled, sort of mumbling, but his wife's voice was very penetrating and coming right through the seats. So I heard this one-sided conversation. It was like... and then she said, 'Oh, don't say it would be better if you were dead.' Now, I'm not indiscreet, overhearing people's conversations. But I have to tell you, as a behavioral scientist, my laboratory is your overheard conversations. So if you're telling somebody in the Starbucks line behind me that somebody has just broken your heart, keep your voice down. That could be my next book. So I hear this going on and on, and he talks forlornly, and she says, 'It's not true that nobody remembers you. Nobody cares about you.' And I got into my head, you know, that this must be just some guy who never lived up to his own ambitions. He wasn't Anthony Foxx. He wasn't doing the things he... Look, I mean, people would dream to have your career,
Anthony Foxx 18:44 ↗
But we have problems.
Arthur Brooks 18:45 ↗
But still, you don't assume that. And okay, they finished, and I went back to work on my laptop, and we landed at Dallas airport about an hour later, and the lights went on. We all stood up, and I wanted to get a look, and it was one of the most famous men in the world. This is somebody that literally every single person in here knows. Not personally. This guy's a hero for what he did in public life decades ago. And I heard him, he's rich, he's famous, he's beloved, telling his wife he might as well be dead. And I thought to myself, I don't want to be this. And so I went home and I told my wife, Esther, I said, 'Honey, I overheard this conversation.' She said, 'Who was it?' And I told her. She said, 'Huh?' I said, 'Yeah, huh? I don't want to have that conversation with you in 40 years. I don't want that.' And she said, 'So figure it out, man. Figure it out.' And I said, 'What do you mean figure it out?' She says, 'Don't you have a PhD? Why don't you use it for something helpful to you?' And she had a good point. And so I dedicated myself to actually figuring it out because I was bad at it. I'm a complete striver. You know, I've spent my whole life just simply trying to, you know, earn the admiration of strangers for my work, which is completely pathetic. And by the way, an exercise in futility. And so I set to work using a method which everybody knows works. If there's a hard problem that you want to crack and it requires a whole lot of knowledge and learning, here's how you learn it and keep it and apply it in your life. You need to learn the science. You need to practice and change your habits, and you need to teach other people. That's how you learn golf. That's, by the way, over at HMS in the medical school. If you want to become a surgeon, you know what the method is? Watch one, do one, teach one, because that's how you learn anything. You want to learn how to golf, learn about golfing, golf, and teach somebody to golf. My father, I saw him lecturing. My father was a mathematics professor, most brilliant man I ever knew. And I saw him giving off the cuff with no notes a 90-minute lecture in advanced calculus. It was like watching Jascha Heifetz play the violin. And I was old enough to respect it and be amazed by it. And afterward I said, 'How did you learn that?' He said, 'I learned the science. I did a million problems and I taught it 40 times.' So I said, 'All right. All right. I got it. If I actually want to become a happier person, I need to learn the science of happiness and create a method behind it. By the way, I needed to retrain in neuroscience, which I fundamentally have done over the past seven years. I need to write a lot about it and commit myself to changing my life, and I need to teach it, which is what I've dedicated myself to doing.' And my happiness, according to the best metrics available, which I give to my students every semester, has risen over the past seven years by 60%. My friends, it's sticky and it works with the right kind of commitment. So the answer to your question, I'm sorry it was long-winded, is yeah, I'm a lot happier. I'm a lot happier, and I'm not going to be the man on the plane.
Anthony Foxx 21:50 ↗
Tell me a little bit about how your thinking scales. So how much of it is we as individuals can read what you write, practice in our lives, teach other people?
Arthur Brooks 22:02 ↗
Yeah.
Anthony Foxx 22:04 ↗
But you look at the world right now, it doesn't seem like a particularly happy place, right?
Arthur Brooks 22:08 ↗
Yeah.
Anthony Foxx 22:08 ↗
Is there a scaled version of this?
Arthur Brooks 22:11 ↗
Yeah. So, I wish I could say yes. But fundamentally, this is not a sociological construct. It's a psychological set of constructs, which is the unit level. We're each responsible for the startup of our own lives. That's what we're responsible for. Now, a lot of us, look, my PhD is in public policy analysis. I worked for years at the RAND Corporation. I was president of the American Enterprise Institute. I taught at the world's greatest policy school. I wish policy could solve the unhappiness problem. But it can't. And the reason for that is actually I racked my brain. What are the happiness policies? And people have written books about this. They're utterly uncompelling. More parks. I don't know. Right. Good. Parks are great. But it doesn't work. I mean, I've got the data on that. Almost everything that people do, the happiness indices don't budge very much. Be like Denmark. So I went to Denmark. I went to Denmark and I actually made a movie, and in the movie I interviewed the Danish speaker of the house, right? Danish speaker of the house, democratic socialist, very different than my own personal ideology, but the guy was good. And I said, 'Sir, what are the policies that you use to make Denmark the happiest, or whatever you believe?' Second, all those indices of world happiness are all nonsense, but the second happiest country in the world, or whatever, what's the secret? He said, 'Oh no, there's no policy that can make people happier.' I said, 'So what's going on here?' He said, 'Policy can only eliminate sources of unhappiness.' This is a very important insight, right? Here's what we can do at the Kennedy School: we can eliminate barriers to happiness, we can eliminate sources of unhappiness. But happiness per se is built on the foundation of the entrepreneurship of each individual's lives, and that comes down to one single thing, which is love. That's what it comes down to. I want to make it easier for people to love. I want to make it easier for people to know each other, but I actually can't instantiate love in people's lives through public policy. If there were a, you know, a cabinet secretary for love, I would head for the hills. That's the scariest thing I've ever heard. I don't want that. But what I can do once again is to eliminate these big barriers. And I think that's a very, very noble thing. And I think that's where the big policy conversation needs to lie. How do we eliminate the barriers to unhappiness? Is it with more regulation of predatory industries and the more leveling of economic outcomes? Or is it getting out of the way of people so we have the true opportunity society that people actually have envisioned since the founders? These are legitimate areas of disagreement, but they really should be about how can we get out of people's way so that they can love better and live better, and then their happiness can truly be more in their own hands.
Anthony Foxx 25:03 ↗
So I have a follow-up question to this, which is we have lots of students here who aspire to be public leaders.
Arthur Brooks 25:11 ↗
Yeah.
Anthony Foxx 25:12 ↗
How important is happiness to them in their career paths, and what would you advise them to do now?
Arthur Brooks 25:18 ↗
Yeah.
Anthony Foxx 25:20 ↗
For their own personal happiness.
Arthur Brooks 25:21 ↗
Yeah. Yeah. I advise lots of leaders, lots of politicians, lots of people in public life, and they don't come to me to say what are the best policies for happiness. They come to me because they're not happy. It's tough. It's tough. I remember one time I wrote a column. I had a column for five years in The Atlantic. Now it's at a place called The Free Press. So I've been writing a weekly column for a long time. And I wrote one about a bunch of literature that I had read because I'm always reading the academic literature to see what I'm going to write about next. And I found this interesting set of articles about the emotions that leaders feel when they become a chief executive or the equivalent of a chief executive, maybe a cabinet secretary. And everybody thinks, you know, man, if I got that job, that gig in the corner office, and you think to yourself, how am I going to feel? Good. Nobody says miserable. Nobody says, 'I sure hope I can get promoted to CEO so I can be angry and lonely all the time.' No, that's not what you think. Unfortunately, those are the two prominent emotions that people feel when they're promoted to CEO or the equivalent of running a big organization. The two most salient emotions are negatively valenced. They are fundamentally anger and loneliness. Anger because you have less control than you thought and you're getting basically thrown about and everybody's mad at you and telling you to do things that you can't do. And lonely because all your friends back in the ranks, they're like, 'Anthony, it's like cabinet secretary, mayor, I can't, you know, he might, I don't want him evaluating me.' That literally, Conan and Deaton down at Princeton, they did a study that showed the unhappiest moments in people's day, you know, the unhappiest moment in the average worker's day is time spent with her or his boss. It's like it's misery to hang out with somebody who's evaluating you. It's not because they don't like the boss, but because we don't like to be bossed. That's a normal human thing. But we need to be bossed and we need bosses. And so the point of all of that is that as public leaders, what you aspire to be will not bring you the happiness that you imagine, which means that you need to be better at happiness. It's urgently important that you actually pay attention to what will actually bring happiness in your life. And what will bring happiness in your life are the habits of the people who have the most enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning. The three macronutrients they are, by the way, your faith or life philosophy, your family life, real friendships, not deal friendships. And you know the difference between real and deal when it comes to friends, right? Leaders have tons of deal friends. Tons of deal friends. Not very many real friends. And they actually are dedicating their work to service and the feeling of earning their own success so they can get proper amounts of satisfaction. And that's what it comes down to. And so when I'm working with leaders, this is what I'm working with. I want to make sure that they have a proper 401k plan that's properly diversified with respect to their happiness. And a lot of time it's just all work, all work, all work, all work. I'm like, 'Okay, let's talk about your spiritual life.' I wind up with leaders always talking about spirituality all the time. You know, I've talked about this.
Anthony Foxx 28:33 ↗
Yeah.
Arthur Brooks 28:34 ↗
I talk about their family lives. No, no, no. How's your marriage? No fooling. You can't marginalize that. I talk to them about their friendships. Who are your best friends? Who are the 20 people you spend the most time with every week? Write them down. Then put Rs and Ds after their name. That does not mean Republican and Democrat. That's real and deal. And that's actually the inventory that I go through. You must put your own oxygen mask on first before you assist others around you.
Anthony Foxx 29:01 ↗
Yeah, I find myself having the same conversations with public leaders. They're surprised a lot of times that the first thing I ask them is, how are you sleeping? How's your family? How, you know, the personal things.
Arthur Brooks 29:13 ↗
Yeah.
Anthony Foxx 29:14 ↗
Um.
Arthur Brooks 29:15 ↗
Because you know it, you've been there.
Anthony Foxx 29:16 ↗
I've been there. And it is lonely. It is lonely.
Arthur Brooks 29:18 ↗
Super lonely. What was, by the way, what was lonelier? Being the mayor of Charlotte or being the cabinet secretary?
Anthony Foxx 29:23 ↗
Being the cabinet secretary.

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APA

Brooks, A. (2026, September 14). How to Find Happiness ft. Arthur Brooks [Interview transcript]. Institute of Politics at Harvard Kennedy School. CEOInterviews.AI. https://ceointerviews.ai/interview/3075746/

MLA

Arthur Brooks. "How to Find Happiness ft. Arthur Brooks." Institute of Politics at Harvard Kennedy School, 14 Sep. 2026. Transcript, CEOInterviews.AI, https://ceointerviews.ai/interview/3075746/.

BibTeX
@misc{brooks2026_3075746,
  author       = {Arthur Brooks},
  title        = {How to Find Happiness ft. Arthur Brooks},
  howpublished = {Interview transcript, Institute of Politics at Harvard Kennedy School. CEOInterviews.AI},
  year         = {2026},
  month        = {sep},
  url          = {https://ceointerviews.ai/interview/3075746/},
  note         = {Speaker-attributed transcript with timestamps}
}