to Carlo Messina, CEO of Banca Intesa, to come here. Welcome.
In the speech we just heard, Luciano Canfora spoke of a fragile earthen vessel for Europe, let alone Italy. Then again, we Italians are fantastic at our extraordinary ability to speak ill of ourselves and our country, though many problems certainly do exist. However, despite all of this, despite the difficulties, the bureaucracy, the public debt, and so on and so forth, the country moves forward anyway and we aren't doing that badly, especially if we look at what other countries are doing that are much more, shall we say, glorious in Europe: traditionally France and Germany. And we move forward all the same; in fact, in recent years, with even better results. And what are the reasons? There is more than one. There is certainly an important one: 6 trillion in savings of the Italians. This represents an extraordinary point of strength for the country. We have Vincenzo Gesmundo here in the front row, whom you know better than I, and he has also recently pointed out that this is a great national asset; it is an extraordinary point of strength. And the first question I want to ask you is very simple. Well, first of all, how did it happen? And then, how can we seize all the opportunities provided by this extraordinary reservoir of wealth? And finally, the risk of losing it, well... because it isn't given to us by divine grace, and so there is also the risk that at some point we might get distracted and, perhaps, paraphrasing Economy Minister Giorgetti. Please.
Well, thank you for inviting me, and first of all, thank you to Enzo for the letter he wrote about savings, because it is one of the positions that were taken in favor of the operation that we are carrying out very courageously at a time when it seemed there was some doubt about whether we could have a role of national security in this country; which is actually the case, because we are a safeguard for Italy's savings. Just as Orsini did, but Enzo and Coldiretti certainly expressed a very clear position on this issue, and I believe there are moments when it is necessary to make explicit what are the important things in a country, and savings certainly represent one of the strengths of this country. Ensuring its stability and security should be a priority for everyone within this country. If you allow me, I will add another element: that is, we not only have very strong household savings, but we also have very low household debt. I mean, the real strong point, which is a differentiator compared to other European countries, is represented by this combination: the fact that there is a very strong level of savings and, on the other hand, very low household debt in relative terms compared to other European countries. This means you have a high stock of assets, but on the other hand, you find yourself with debt servicing that is on average much lower than in other European countries.
Then, it's clear that this element must also be viewed through a lens that should always make us reflect when we talk about our country's strengths—if you'll allow me to elaborate on the topic of savings—which is the concentration of wealth. I mean, it's clear that we are a country with very strong wealth, but also with significant, relevant pockets of poverty that are probably, in a context like ours, somewhat unacceptable. Meaning, this is a country with immense wealth, but also with millions of poor people and individuals who are socially in a condition of hardship. Savings are undoubtedly the "triple-A" element of our country today. If you want a summary of our relative positioning, it's a point where the ability to keep it within our country... Because while it's true that investments must be taken abroad, and everyone must diversify their portfolio, the more we manage to invest these savings within our own country, the more we manage to keep it in investments that can be realized in Italy. But there is no doubt that this is accompanied—the family savings—by another strong point, which is the strength of Italian companies in all sectors, including this one.
You just mentioned the great contradiction between so much poverty and the concentration of wealth? But it's not just an Italian ailment; the entire West has this disease, and not only the West.
It tends to worsen, because if one looks at what has happened in the last 10-15 years, the concentration of wealth has increased extraordinarily.
Yes. And this also connects back to some points that were discussed earlier, meaning: when a distribution of wealth is determined that has too high a concentration in very small percentages of the population, it is clear that, from a social point of view, fractures are generated—weak points—that, if not managed with great care, can lead to dangerous situations and, in any case, the degeneration of what happens in a society. For this reason, in my opinion, among the priorities that each of us has—and we do this, if you'll allow me, as a bank—we believe that investment in social issues, meaning a significant portion of the profits we generate, should be allocated to support those who are most in difficulty in our country. We have the largest anti-poverty project in Italy; Intesa Sanpaolo is the largest entity making donations and interventions to provide food to those in need, and there is no other entity in Italy that does this. This is precisely because we are aware that this element... Thank you. That this element of a wealthy country, yet with significant pockets of poverty, is a problem that cannot be faced and cannot be addressed by a government or public institutions alone. Private entities must also ensure that they contribute to the well-being of their country.
On the other hand, governments change, but this trend shows no signs of decreasing, because the concentration of wealth is, in fact, increasing. But then there is the other side of the coin. We mentioned 6400 billion in savings, from families and businesses, naturally. But the other side of the coin is 100 billion that remains in current accounts, meaning it remains frozen, immobilized. But just imagine what could be done if we managed to unlock those 100 billion? It's not that Italians don't trust banks.
Yes. No, no, I think this—forgive me—I believe that regarding this number, you must keep in mind that 400 billion are business deposits. I mean, this is an additional element that gives an idea of the strength of Italian companies, because the fact that out of 1.4 trillion euros, 400 billion euros—which wasn't the case 10-15 years ago—demonstrates the extraordinary turnaround from a point of weakness for our country to an absolute point of strength for the business system. That is, having 400 billion euros in deposits gives companies a degree of financial independence that allows them to look toward a future of investment, out of that 1.4 trillion euros. 400 billion are part of liquidity reserves or availability for investments by businesses. This is also one of the reasons why credit is not growing significantly in our country, because companies use part of their own availability, having many financial resources in their bank current accounts. They did an excellent job of reconfiguring the financial structure: meaning the other point of weakness, the other point of strength and weakness resolved, and the strength today that leads the business sector, compared to others in Europe, to be considered triple A, is precisely having changed the financial structure, having reduced short-term debt and having brought much more liquidity to banks as deposits. The other trillion euros is represented by household deposits. Now, it is true that a portion of this is held for precautionary reasons, because obviously every family keeps financial assets on hand in case of need; the more uncertainty increases, the more this becomes a factor that leads to keeping financial assets in deposits. A portion could objectively be directed toward productive sectors or invested directly, but I would advise against it; I mean, in my opinion, this mechanism is very dangerous. Meaning, for a family to invest in a business, I don't see that as the best way to suggest that a family make investments. It is a different thing to use investors and mutual funds that have specific goals to support certain investment sectors. This could be a point on which there is even more work to be done in this country.
And then, let me put it this way, there is also a small tragedy because in managed savings every year there are 500 billion—no, I didn't make a mistake—yes, it's 500 billion, that's a lot, that take flight and go to the United States. Flowing toward Anglo-Saxon financial institutions and investment funds, and then, adding insult to injury, there's more. Not only do they go there, but with that money, Italian companies are bought up. It's very easy to buy them because, since Italian capitalism is family-based, it has a problem with generational turnover; the chains of command become drawn out and, consequently, when cash arrives—a lot of money arrives—the Italian company loses its identity and control is transferred abroad, which, in my humble opinion, is not a good thing. So, we said 500 billion. The Draghi plan, the one for the Europe to come, has been defined as a plan that can truly be a turning point for Europe, though one can argue about whether that is really the case. Anyway, just to have it as a point of reference, it speaks of 800 billion needed, so 500 billion flying out of the country is a significant figure. But how could it be done to counter this phenomenon?
Yes, I would add a point about where these funds go, because today the vast majority of these investments are directed toward highly innovative sectors—artificial intelligence, all the evolutions in technological innovation—which are primarily being driven in the United States. So, the point we need to consider here is: will this Europe ever be able to attract this capital? Because Europe, as it is structured today, in my opinion, will never succeed. I mean, it's unfinished; it's... I know Stefano won't be happy if I say these things, but it's a baroque governance; it's just... In any company, the way Europe is managed today, it would go bankrupt, it really would. I mean, I believe the real point today is how you manage to... I mean, I've made Stefano turn pale saying these things, but he knows I... He's risking a heart attack, really, he's risking a heart attack.
I always say what I think. I believe this, but there are no journalists in the room. No, no, no one can hear this. But today, I mean, if you think about the decision-making process in Europe, I have to be honest: as investors, would you rather invest in the big artificial intelligence companies in the United States or in a Europe that hasn't even managed to define whether it can have a fiscal policy by issuing Eurobonds or by having to negotiate 10 billion euros? If you have an energy problem and you have the Prime Minister who has to go and beg for 10 billion euros to be able to do what in all normal countries should be a reasonable thing—intervening when there is a need. It is clear that there are mechanisms Europe should work on, and in my opinion, on governance—that is, a single Minister of Economy, a single Minister of Defense: either they succeed in making it truly something similar to the United States, or else those funds... it is clear that Mario Draghi is the world champion and what he says is certainly.
Well, not everyone agrees, by definition.
Exactly. But I say that we need to create mechanisms that allow these investments to be kept within Europe. I don't see many of those today, and I believe that all of us must ensure that this Europe starts thinking in terms of mechanisms that seek to create a single state with different regions, but with clear and easy governance mechanisms. I mean, honestly, look at what we're witnessing today with the approval of budget measures, the back-and-forth from Brussels begging for x billion euros—it just seems truly incredible to me, just incredible.
Anyway, we agree that this evil chain, allow me to call it that, where Italian money goes into Anglo-Saxon funds that buy Italian companies at disproportionate, off-market valuations, moving control out of Italy—this mechanism must be stopped because we are being harmed by it. There's no doubt, excuse me. You have so many—Lucchini has his coronary arteries in pieces by now.
So many, so many investments made by many Italian investors that are carried out in favor of entities that then, let's say, indirectly finance potential acquisitions in our country. This is an element, however, that requires greater awareness from those who invest, but there must also be greater opportunities in our country that need to be made possible and through shared investment methods. It is clear that—and this doesn't just apply, look, to the acquisition of companies, but also to the financing of public debt. This is another element that, in my opinion, is fundamental and could become even more so if market conditions were to worsen in the coming months or in the coming years. But there is no doubt that, as much as possible, the savings generated should be invested internally, first of all in Europe and then within Italy. But today, objectively, the great investment opportunities are emerging much more abroad due to wrong-headed policies and non-strategic visions of the past in Europe.
Despite everything, the ship of Italy is moving; I mentioned earlier that it is even performing better than countries like France, Germany, and so on. But from your point of view, from your vantage point as a leading Italian bank, how is this economy, this country, actually doing?
I am—no, I am convinced, look, that we have very strong structural conditions in this country today, very strong. We were talking about savings, we were talking about businesses, we were talking about entrepreneurial capacity and the desire of everyone working in Italy to get things done and to overcome limits, as happened during the Covid period. Everyone thought that Italy would be the country that went to ruin. I mean, it seems to me that in the end, all of this didn't happen. I mean, we have... It went better than the others. We have an absolute capacity to do better than other countries, and there are undoubtedly strengths, including in many sectors like tourism, services, and employment growth; moreover, there has been a very careful and prudent management of the public budget in recent years, for which the government, Giorgia Meloni, and Giorgetti have certainly done, in my opinion, an excellent job. It is clear that our country still has one weakness, which is growth; that is, this is a country that should accelerate its growth drivers, and on this point, probably, when financial measures are drafted, one should not implement blanket interventions. I understand it is difficult in election years to make such arguments, dividing things into two blocks—one for investment and the other for social issues—but if your resources are not infinite, you should concentrate them. For today, in my opinion, the real engines are represented by the investment component and, on the other hand, by poverty reduction. Because if that—or at least social interventions aimed at mitigating inequality—is not addressed, you trigger problems that can have truly dramatic consequences over the next few years. On the other hand, we are seeing this these days in Milan and in other Italian cities.
So, we have reached the point: the budget. Well, it certainly must not be an electoral budget. On the other hand, it seems to me that Giorgetti, the Minister of Economy, explained it quite clearly, right? No ifs and no buts. They would have to go over his dead body. It seems to me there are no signs that this might happen. But in this budget, from your point of view, if you had to write it, what are the concrete measures you would feel like suggesting to the government?
Well, apart from the fact that I will never write a budget, so, luckily it is not something I will have to do, and I believe the role that the people in government today have, particularly the Minister of Economy, is very difficult. However, let me mention one thing I would not do, and so I start from a point that is also a topic of the day, where we talk about taxes on banks, and since I do not want to avoid talking about topics that are...
