You know, let's think about love. I cannot even give it the way I feel it to that to the person that I love. I must translate that love into shareable symbols. The words that I use, the gestures that I make, whatever whatever way I do, that is a transmission of something, but that what I transmit is not the depth and the the powerful knowing that I have, the qualia of love that I know that also tell me what I don't know.
From Barcelona, the 2025 Science of Consciousness Conference, I'm speaking with Federico Faggin, physicist, engineer, inventor, and entrepreneur known for designing the world's first commercial microprocessor. His book, Irreducible: Consciousness, Life, Computers, and Human Nature, is a milestone in both quantum consciousness and panpsychism. Calls it quantum information-based panpsychism. Federico, it is great to meet. I've looked forward to our conversation for a long time.
Likewise. It's good to see you again.
Good. Let's let's begin with your presentation and discussion at the Science of Consciousness Convention. What what is what did you present and what is the overview of your paper?
Well, essentially, the idea is to show that we have to start with consciousness and free will as fundamental properties of nature. And if we start there, then we can in fact explain why quantum physics has the crazy properties that it has. So, it's a it's a reversal from what I myself was also trying to do because while recognizing that consciousness and free will must be fundamental, I was still trying to explain them using quantum physics.
But you cannot do that. You had to you had to turn around and say no. Consciousness and free will are so fundamental and so primitive as properties before matter, before energy, you know, in a in a way or simultaneous, better yet, with matter and energy that if you start with a postulate that accepts consciousness and free will from the very beginning of the universe, then you can explain that the universe must manifest the deeper properties as the properties of quantum physics, superpositional states, entanglement, and so on.
Okay. So, you're taking uh consciousness and free will as a as a package. Normally, they are not. Normally, those are two separate kinds of things that like Venn diagrams that overlap. I mean, there's a lot of overlap. So, are you are you making both the same level of primitive fundamental ontology?
Yes, basically, the ontology is in the quantum field. Actually, the ontology is on one, the totality of what exists, and one has three properties. It is dynamic, holistic, and wants to know itself. The novelty is that one wants to know itself. As one dynamic and holistic describes the physics that we know, the quantum physics that we know. So, those. In other words, dynamic means that one is never the same instant after instant, and holistic means that one is not made of separable parts, and it is the inseparability of one that allows you to think that consciousness and free will are intertwined, that that you cannot separate them. In other words, it is obvious that free will without consciousness makes no sense because you need, you know, you need entity that they want, right? So so if so if you have free will, you know, you must have consciousness.
Right. It's the other way around that's the problem.
That's right. It's the other way around.
So how do we get how do we get consciousness?
Well, it turns out that first of all, if you start with with a postulate that is consciousness because one wants to know itself, means that as the wanting is the source of the free will and the know to know itself, one must be conscious because consciousness is what allows one to know itself. So it it can be defined as simply as that. Consciousness is the is the capacity of one to know itself. And everything that one creates then must be able to know itself.
