I think we went to that bar because it had Jigar's favorite German import beer, the Dünle. And there was a great bartender named Robert who overheard Jigar's passion about solar. Next thing I know, he was selling me solar on my house. He quit his job to become a solar salesman.
The way we power the world is changing at a fundamental level. Across the United States, clean energy now makes up more than 90% of new electricity added to the grid. Not because of politics or ideology, but because these technologies simply work better.
They're cheaper to build, faster to deploy, and easier to scale than anything we've had before. Whether you're curious about where the economy is headed, how energy affects your daily life, or who's behind the billion-dollar deals shaping our future, Energy Empire is your guide to what comes next.
Wow. Is this our first real episode?
Here we are. Yes, this is our first real episode.
Well, we have guests. People have joined us.
I know. I know. Well, so what's on your mind right now? There's like nothing going on in the news today.
Nothing. I know. I mean, the overturn of the endangerment finding is like the big news item. It's shocking. I just think that we're headed for so many lawsuits. So many lawsuits.
So many lawsuits. But I mean, like, I still don't know what's happening with the Venezuelan oil money. And so we got to figure that out. And then weirdly, I just talked to a friend of mine who was trying to convince me that she was watching Netflix episodes on 1.5x. And I was like, it's one thing to listen to a podcast at 1.5x, but like shows that are well produced, I feel like you can't do that at 1.5x.
It hurts me. That kind of hurts me. Like what? Like what show can you watch at 1.5x and still get enjoyment at that point? Like are you just consuming the content for the sake of consuming it so you can like have your water cooler topics, or are you actually like enjoying it?
I was trying to explain to her that like this is someone's art form. Like you can't just like sully their art form by listening to it at 1.5x. Like it's one thing to like just consume content. I get it. But like, yeah. So anyway, I don't think we're going to be friends.
Scared about what we're going to sound like at 1.5x. [laughter]
I already talk at 1.5x, so I'm not sure that people can handle it at...
You do sometimes. Sometimes I'm like, you get off a podcast recording, I'm like, I got half of that. Sometimes I feel like there's just so much in your head that you want to get out that just like, how quickly can I exit that out of my brain. Busy up there.
Well, now you have a responsibility to fix it. So like you're going to have to like shut me down and like, you know, tell me to say it slower.
I'm going to try. Like we'll have to work on your cadence. I've been working on putting together a media training for one of my clients right now and it's been reminding me about all these core fundamentals of public speaking. I'm like, ah, look at this. I could benefit from this. I may have to send you a copy of that after I'm done putting it together.
Yeah. You're like, how did I make it this far? Like he has failed at least half of my best practices.
Some things you're very good at intuitively, I have to say. And so other things we keep practicing. [laughter]
Well said. Very diplomatic. So this episode is really more introspective, right? I mean, I've been on the air for a long time with The Energy Gang and then now Open Circuit. And of course today the Energy Empire series here. But I'm curious. Like, people keep telling me that they don't really know much about my story.
Yeah. No one knows you. I mean, I've been talking about this from the beginning. Everybody loves a story. Everyone loves to feel a personal connection with the leader. And you have a great story. And so I was really excited in this episode to talk to your buddy Phil Radford, former executive director of Greenpeace and currently over at Consumer Reports, to really dig in on your personal story, what makes you tick, kind of how you got started in the industry. I mean, I learned a lot. I actually really enjoyed it, and so I really hope our listeners get as much out of it as I did. But how did it feel? How did it feel talking about yourself?
Well, we only scratched the surface, as you know. There's a lot more to the story. I was talking to a good friend today and telling him that we had done this episode and he said, 'Oh my god, like if you ever get those stories out of me, it'll be crazy.' And so I'm going to have to convince him to get on the podcast. But you know, I feel like what he was saying is he said some of this stuff was so painful going through it that you don't actually want to relive it. But I do think that people can learn a lot from it.
I really enjoyed hearing about your friend that you and Phil were discussing that was really influential in the founding of SunEdison who passed away, and just what that loss taught you and meant for you, and yeah, just like some of the people who have influenced you along the way. It was cool.
I can't wait for part two.
What are we going to test upon in part two?
I think we only got through SunEdison. Maybe a little bit of Carbon. So, I know there's more to cover. There's more to cover.
There's so much.
Well, so yeah, we've got to talk about Generate Capital. We've got to talk about LPO. We've got to talk about you becoming a father. That was obviously a huge moment. It's been an adventure learning more about you. So, what's your big takeaway from the conversation? [snorts]
Well, I think when you think about where we were as an industry when we started SunEdison in 2003, we had several thousand systems total around the world. You know, I think people still can't reckon with the fact that we're building that many every hour of every day now around the world, right? And so like one of the things that I find fascinating is that we just take so much for granted today that we couldn't take for granted when we were building these companies. Right? When you think about just like how many people finance solar today, you know, all of the people who used to run the Department of Energy's energy efficiency and renewable energy office during the Clinton administration turned me down for financing for SunEdison, right? They were like, 'We think solar's too risky.' Right? And so, you know, it's one of those things where I think people just have put out of their mind all of these really important baby steps that we had to take to get to where we are today.
Yeah. It's really extraordinary when you think about how far the industry has come and it's not been that long. Like 2003 feels like it was five minutes ago.
Oh, I think that's exactly right. And so today when you think about the fact that 90% of everything added to the US grid is solar, wind, or battery storage, and it's been that way since 2020, right, it's craziness, right? When you think about just like how much of the world's incremental electricity is coming from nuclear, solar, wind, electric vehicles, I think people have yet to really understand that that's true, and they certainly have no idea who is behind actually making it happen.
Totally. So, tell me, why did you think that Phil Radford was the right guest for this episode when we were digging into your story?
Well, Phil and I met when I was at BP Solar, and so he's been with me on this entire journey, right? We talked about it over beers at the saloon right next to Ben's Chili Bowl in the heart of DC's U Street corridor. And you know, so he knows the whole story, and so he can fill in all the gaps that I have blocked out of my brain.
Or he won't let you get away with any major omissions.
Well, it's less omissions and probably like me sugarcoating things that were really just a lot worse than I was describing them.
Yeah. Well, I mean, I know you to be a very committed optimist, so that makes it one of your best qualities, Jigar. Everybody loves that.
Well, I appreciate that. I appreciate that.
Great. Well, I really enjoyed this conversation and I hope our listeners do too. So, stay tuned for part two. And if you have any pressing questions that you would like to ask about his personal story, please send those to
[email protected] and we will use them in our next episode.
This podcast is supported by S2G Investments. If you've been listening to me, you know that I am done talking about R&D. We have the technology. The question is, can we deploy it at scale? When I joined Sanjai Krishnan on the S2G podcast, we skipped the hype and talked about what actually matters: affordability, fit-for-purpose capital, and getting real infrastructure built. S2G Investments is one of the only firms who brings that same deployment-first mindset to energy, agriculture, and oceans, connecting the dots across the real economy. Listen to the S2G podcast on your favorite podcast app now and start with my episode on energy affordability.
[singing]
Phil Radford, thanks for joining us. It's so nice to meet you. I actually can't believe this is the first time we've ever formally met.
Jamie, it's great to meet you. Thanks for having me on the show.
Yes, so happy, so excited for this conversation. I've been waiting for this one. So, Phil, you run Consumer Reports, the nation's leading consumer protection nonprofit, which is known for asking tough questions of corporations and institutions, but you also have the distinction of being Jigar's best friend. And I know that the two of you have known each other for more than 20 years. So, we wanted to bring you here today to help us dig into who Jigar really is. Even though he's one of the most visible voices in energy with more than a million followers online, there's surprisingly little about him out there. So, people know the takes but not the person behind them. So, Phil, how did you and Jigar first meet?
Jigar and I first met in the year 2000 when we were both working on solar. This was the time when I think there were about 200 megawatts of solar manufactured globally per year. It was a tiny industry and he was one of the pioneers. We had a vendor in common who we both abused in a way. We both asked to do extraordinary things and stretch his capabilities, and he said, you know, 'I have another client just like you. This guy who works at BP. You should meet.' So we met and became really good friends. We would go to the saloon once a week right next to Ben's Chili Bowl in Washington DC and co-conspire on how to transform America's energy economy, and along the way became best friends.
I have heard about this infamous dive bar near Ben's Chili Bowl. So tell me a little bit more about that. What were those conversations like and kind of how did your friendship evolve? I also heard that there may or may not have been a bartender that you all unknowingly influenced.
That is true. A wonderful man named Robert was our bartender. I think we went to that bar because it had Jigar's favorite German import beer, the Dünle. [snorts]
That you couldn't find anywhere else.
Yes. Yes. And so we would go there. I don't think they imported it anywhere else in the Mid-Atlantic region except for that bar. And there was a great bartender named Robert who overheard Jigar's passion about solar. Next thing I know, he was selling me solar on my house. He quit his job to become a solar salesman.
It was kind of hilarious because like we would have these conversations and then Robert would like just come closer to our conversations and like give us better service and you know like be listening in the conversations. Every once in a while I think he would join in and we were fine with it, but it was kind of funny and you know the pros and cons of...
What's he up to these days? Robert, hit us up if you're out there and you're still selling solar panels. We want to know. We want to hear from you.
God, I think the last time I saw him was like 10 years ago.
He had married somebody from Eastern Europe who is like a crazy yoga instructor.
And I think he's still working for the same solar company. [laughter]
It's a great field to be in. So no surprise there.
True. So you know, there's a lot to know about Jigar. I think the thing most people know, or many people know, is that he is a solar pioneer, was one of the first clean energy podcasters. Many people know he's from Illinois. You know, I met his parents. His father is a wonderful, thoughtful man. His mom is a wonderful person who runs the family, I would say. And in the '80s we talked a lot about latchkey kids — kids who, both parents worked, like in Jigar's case, and they had a key and they'd let themselves in after school. Jigar has often described himself as a latchkey kid without the key. So what was it like growing up in Illinois with your wonderful family in a rural area, having moved there, having been born in India and moved there as a kid because your dad was a doctor there? What was it like?
Well, you know, look, I think that, you know, '70s parenting gets a bad rap, I think. But like, I definitely grew up in like quintessential '70s parenting. You know, growing up in Sterling, which was a rural place, my mom, you know, thought, well, there was no need to lock the door, right? So, you would just, you know, come home from school. But, like, weirdly, she would lock the door. So, I'd come home from school and like the door would be locked. And we had one of those houses that had the fake barn 2x4s sort of on the outside, right? Like it wasn't structural in any way. It was just like a shape of, you know, sort of like 2x4s that made it look more barn-like. And so I would have to climb onto the side of the house to my parents' like sliding door on the second floor because like that was the one thing she never locked, and then go into the house that way. So like that is my safety story for the day.
You were doing that like on a daily basis or this was a rare occurrence?
Oh, like once a week. And like my brother who's three years younger than me, so I'm probably eight at the time and my brother's five, and like you know, so like I'm climbing up in the top there and like my brother tries of course to copy me and like would invariably get hurt. So I like had to like tell him to stay downstairs while I would open the door and then open the front door.
Wild. Well, I know the one thing I've heard about your childhood, which is very scant details, but I do know that there was an event, like there was an industrial plant in your hometown that closed and that was a really impactful moment for you. I've heard you talk about that. So, can you share a little bit more about what that was like and how that impacted your work today?
Yeah. So, Sterling, Illinois is one of those places where when you're in a rural town, right, there's one big town and Sterling was the big one, right, with like 11,000 people. And, you know, it was anchored by Northwestern Steel and Wire, which was the seventh largest steel mill in the country. And there was lots of other things that popped up around it. So, think a Wahl Clipper, right, which is the clippers that like cut all men's hair around the country, around the world actually, is made there. And so Northwestern Steel and Wire had like a big union workforce, right? So you could imagine those are like the good high-quality jobs that like, you know, allowed people to, you know, pay more, right? This is the kind of town where when I was living there, and even today, the houses were like $70,000. So like you could imagine if you were making a good wage, it really stretched, right? Your car payment was often more than your house mortgage, right? And so when that shut down, it like devastated the town, like people left, like all sorts of things occurred. Side businesses, you know, that used that steel would also go out of business. So, it was devastating and it became very personal to me because you could imagine like as a kid, like Sterling was not a wealthy place in general, but like you could imagine that like after folks lost their job, like it was most certainly not a place that anyone had any discretionary spending at all. So, like it was a very obvious thing that your friends were hurting.
What about how that affected your future career trajectory? Like did you think that that's a part of why you have had kind of like the worldview you have? I mean I know just yesterday you were talking about Americans doing big things and I know you're very passionate about restarting the manufacturing industry in this country. Do you think that that kind of shaped your view of why that was important and maybe like also your view of unions?
Yeah. I mean, you know, like when I was growing up around that time, that was a time when Jack Welch was running General Electric, right? And you had Neutron Jack and we had four GE manufacturing facilities around us that shut down, right? They made like washing machines and made other things and they were like shipping them to China and you know, I was like, 'This is amazing. Of course, we should like go to China where you know, like labor is cheaper and there are no environmental standards and we can import stuff back in cheaply, etc.' But like growing up in that place like you were like, is it that good? All these people in Morrison and Rock Falls and other places have no jobs. Like is this really like good for us? I mean, look, you know, there's a lot of things that people say that they understood when they were growing up. I clearly didn't understand all of that stuff. I had not put all the pieces together. But it was very clear to me that there was more to the story than you're going to get cheaper stuff, right?
