Most people see me in the world, they underestimate a very small nuance of my career. I stay very narrow of what I talk about. When I pressed go on that video, I've been studying wine for 17 years.
If you're a creator today, you can use AI to scale, or you can deliberately choose to not use AI.
AI is going to win. Like, what do you think? You're not going to use AI? Like, every single person uses AI. Let me be very blunt with this. Quantity is not debatable. You either make 800 pieces of content or you make one. Quality is subjective.
Today, you're one of the most famous people on the internet, but I think you're somehow able to make these underdogs feel like you're just one of them.
Cuz I am. I think there's too much hate and negativity and cynicism in the world. And I am fully about love and accountability. You know, building VeeFriends is the most selfish and selfless thing I'm ever going to do professionally.
You have got to have some days that are ups and downs like everyone. What do you do for your own mental health?
My entire life I've had the responsibility to make payroll. I'm deeply curious if I'll ever...
I'm Sammy Cohen and this is Social Currency, a podcast that unpacks the stories that are shaping business, culture, and the intersection of the two. When I started this podcast, I wrote some of my dream guests down. I've interviewed a few of them so far, and today I'm joined by another one, Gary Vaynerchuk. I am so excited about this one and I just wanted to say thank you for being here and helping me to grow the show. We did this and I cannot be more excited for you to hear this conversation. I've been a fan of Gary forever, many New York Times bestsellers ago since his very early podcast days, and I've watched him closely as he scaled VaynerX, VeeFriends, Resi, and more. So, I've been very curious to get his take on many things. We talk about what he will never outsource to AI, how he's building an IP empire with VeeFriends, and how creators should think about using AI to create more leverage.
We talk about why Gary is so good at connecting with people and we watch a video of his that always makes me cry when I watch it. I also do a lightning round for the first time. So, you'll have to tell me if I should keep doing this segment. And one of his answers really surprised me and made me wonder if Gary Vee is about to be less online. Plus, some talk on whether cyborgs scare him, how he takes care of his mental health, and why he's betting on live. This is Gary Vee's Social Currency. This episode is brought to you by Mercury.
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You are a legend in brand and marketing and just a few months ago it was your 20th anniversary of your first ever YouTube video.
So before we get into everything, I have to ask about that moment when you pressed upload on that first video. Did you have any inkling that your social media presence would turn into any semblance of the empire that it is today?
You know, it's funny and I'm looking at your camera right now with the red light. It was less about the upload because back then you would upload and embed your YouTube video to your website. It was more about when the light went on. I did have a moment and I sometimes look at episode one of Wine Library TV and I could see it. It's like pretty immediate. I actually paused for a second and say I think I'm doing what might be the first wine vlog. I don't even know what we call video blog. I think that's what we called it back then. Video blog. When I filmed that, I was in the depths of running my father's business. I had an inkling that I was getting to a point where I was going to start to do something on my own at some point in my life. In the micro, no. In the macro, long before I did that episode, I thought that I had the potential for a big professional career. I don't think I thought a lot of people would know me.
That was never in my cards. I always thought that I would be known in the business world that I was in.
You know, when I was a kid, I knew that everybody in the wine business was going to know who I was. That moment really accelerated what was already happening and within 5 years everyone did. I think all of us have a sense of certain things in the macro. It's almost impossible to guess the micro or the details of them.
Mhm. What amazes me about watching that video cuz I watched it right before we sat down today is that you have this sense of yes, there is an evolution to who you are today, but you were still Gary Vee in the way that you spoke about wine. And I'm going to use the word self-assured, but I don't want you to take that the wrong way. You had this confidence. Even even back then,
I knew what I was talking about. You know, most people see me in the world. I think they underestimate a very small nuance of my career. I stay very narrow of what I talk about. When I pressed go on that video, I've been studying wine for 17 years. There was no concern about what was going to come out of my mouth. You know, if you look at my content in the last 15 years, I talk about things I know. I don't pontificate about the space program that NASA, like I don't talk about things I don't know. Even like my garage sale videos, when I make those videos, it's something I've been doing my whole life. I'm very passionate of feeling confident about what I'm talking about. I'm comfortable pontificating about things I don't know, but I'll hedge it.
I'll say, "Hey, I don't really know this." And even though I'm a kid in those videos, I'm a 31-year-old kid that had been really studying wine for more than half my life at that point. So, it was a very cozy, you know, platform. And then when I started making business and marketing videos, I mean, you know this about my career, like, you know, I'm in the traffic even today. I myself am a prolific content creator, but I also happen to run literally the largest independent marketing agency in the world. It comes from a place of authority and comfort. Confidence is going to come through when you're actually confident about your subject matter. And I think a lot of people struggle on content because they try to perceive they're an expert in something versus actually being well-versed. You don't need, you know, an expert is subjective, but well-versed in their subject matter. And so, it's very easy for me to do this because we can get into very deep details. And I think that gives me a sense of confidence because if you ask me a question I don't know, I'll answer I don't know.
But again, I think more than many other people, I stay very in my lane. And that's what you saw in that video.
Yeah. Speaking of other things that you are very on top of and you speak really confidently about, I want to talk to you about a term that you've coined and that's interest media.
You've said that we're in this world where social media is dead.
And it's all about interest media. So, first for the audience, can you define what that means?
Yeah. I think social media was coined on the, you know, with the premise that you would get content from people you followed, your social circle. You know, I was very fascinated when I invested in Tumblr because I thought Tumblr was different in 2008. I think when I invested in it, I'm like, "Oh, this is weird. You follow like art or like music. You don't follow people." And that was a foreign concept. I was very taken by it. If you look back at my digital receipts, I was also a very loud advocate for Musical.ly when it looked like it was just 13 and 14-year-old girls dancing. And by the way, I was very cautious to go in there. I was like, uh, you know, like it's really young people. But what was interesting was I already saw what I saw on Tumblr, which was Musical.ly was giving you content in a different way. And obviously I got very loud about TikTok years ago pre-COVID because I saw what was happening, which was I didn't have a word for it, interest media, but I was realizing you were getting content served to you around your behaviors on the platform, not just the behaviors of who you were following. And I think everyone who's listening knows this, especially this podcast, which talks about this in depth.
People know that we now get content based on what we're currently interested in, not who we follow.
And side note, I remember the year must have been 2016 and my first job out of college. I worked for Aldi, the German grocery chain, and helped to open their stores. And I was based in southside of Chicago driving around. I remember when you were doing the daily Gary Vee, talking about Musical.ly.
At the time, I didn't get it. I was like, why is he so obsessed with these middle schoolers who are singing? And I think now what makes you truly the best in the space because you have these time capsules of you talking over a decade ago about what was going to happen and then we're watching it happen ahead of our eyes, you know.
Yeah. I mean, I'm very... it's, you know, it's funny when I launched the website in 1997 in those early years, I got a lot of press pretty early on because I built a very large wine business. I remember like in my 20s being sad that I wouldn't always be a whiz kid. I remember feeling it. I'm like, man, this is so cool. This is so fun, man. When I get older, it's not going to be like this. And I didn't dwell on it, so it wasn't a big deal, but I remember thinking it.
And it's really fun to be a little bit of an OG. Like it's so humbling to have the words like even when you said it when you first introed me I'm like this is so neat so many of you are now byproducts been affected by look at me the way I looked at people when I was a kid. It's very humbling and it's really fun for me cuz I still am in a really cool spot where it's not nostalgic meaning I'm still in my prime you know I'm not an athlete.
My body's not breaking down and I have to wrap up soon.
I'm a businessman. I know many 70 and 80 year old businessmen and women who are still in it.
So for me it's like oh I'm in this cool spot where I have the best of both worlds where I you know I can have some roses on some of the things I've accomplished but I have so much more to accomplish. And yeah I mean when I hear that you know that's just the luck of the draw a little bit with DNA. Like I do have a very strong intuitive. I was doing a podcast recently where I talked to I'm like I'm like a music A&R. Like you know I think about those music A&Rs in the 70s and 80s. It's always fun to be in LA because so much of that Mötley, all that early 80s rock band stuff, you know, they walked into a bar and they saw a bunch of kids playing and they just knew Nirvana and Pearl Jam and Mötley Crüe and Guns N' Roses and Van Halen and Duran Duran. Like I read those stories. I've watched the documentaries. I think I have that with platforms.
I think I just have a really intuitive understanding, including the ones that didn't work out. One of the things I'm very proud of, people talk about the TikTok or the Facebook. They don't talk about the fact that when everyone was saying Peach was going to be big, I didn't. They don't talk about when everyone was saying, you know, XYZ was uh Vero.
I remember Vero got a lot of heat and I was like, uh-uh.
I'm also pretty proud of like the ones I didn't say this is the next big thing. I try to be calculated. I don't want the bad receipts on the internet. And uh I am proud of my radar. Listen, nobody bats a thousand, but I learned from all of them like Vine and SocialCam and Daily Booth. Daily Booth was a big one that really was a precursor to Instagram or Path or, you know, and so it's fun to go through those chapters.
And something I want to dig into with this interest media world, someone today with no following can put out a piece of content that outperforms someone who has millions of followers today. Does that mean in your perspective that the creative is actually winning over the individual creator?
Well, I wouldn't say winning over. It's that every creator has a level of merit that we've never seen before. So, I'm a creator. I have a lot of followers. I go through hot streaks and cold streaks. In fact, I can feel it that I'm in a hot streak right now. I'm starting to tune it up properly. A year ago, I felt like I was in a cold streak. That didn't mean that somebody who doesn't have an account has an advantage over me. I still have my followers and followers still have some sort of inherent opportunity for more reach. It's why I'm so intoxicated with it. It's like sports, right? Like Kobe Bryant at the end of his career, may rest in peace, was not the same player he was in his prime. And that meant a young LeBron or a young Steph Curry could outperform him.
I think that's what I love about where content is right now. I'm a legend.
At least, thank you for saying that. I've done a good job. I'm proud of who I've been, but last year when I wasn't at the top of my game, I love that you that people that just started had an opportunity to outpace me, get more views, get more recognition. That's fun. And I love the merit of that. So, I would say it's a merit of the individual content. And so, I don't think it's the piece of content over the creator because the creator creates the content. It's just the content, baby. You know what I mean? Like as they say in the old Hollywood ways, like all of us in this room, behind the camera, in front of the camera, we've had better eras of content creating than others. The fact that tomorrow, if you decide to get back in the game, if you make good content, you're back in the game. You know, for me, last year, I was so head-down building VeeFriends and VCR and VaynerSports and VaynerMedia. I wasn't as good of a content creator.
I was too much of Gary the operator. But this year, when I used the holidays to reset and say, "Hey, this is still the top of your funnel. Like, get your act together, brother," like I have and I'm doing better.
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Now, we've talked about interest media and really the reason for that shift on all of these social platforms is really because the algorithms, the tech behind them is changing and so has AI. AI has introduced really this new dynamic that it seems like it has exploded over the last 2 years in the creator economy today. The thing that AI is really best at is creating more content. Yet in interest media, which you just spoke to, creating content, it's really about creating the best content, right? Cuz content is the best video is going to win. So really, there's two options. If you're a creator today, you can use AI to scale or as a creator, you can deliberately choose to not use AI and potentially use that as a way of standing out. But because you've also said that one of the best things that you can do as a human creator today is to lean into your authenticity and your humanness in order to build your audience. What's your advice for someone who's really thinking about gosh, there are so many AI tools today as a creator to use yet should I go anti-AI? Should I lean into it? There's just so much confusion. So what's your take?
My take is that all of us should fall in love with and, not or. One of the most interesting debates that I've watched play out in the last decade is the concept of quantity versus quality. Let me be very blunt with this. Quantity is not debatable. You either make 800 pieces of content or you make one, right? It's not subjective. It's objective. 800 versus one is 800 versus one. Quality is subjective. What makes quality? Is it the production value? Is it the fact that you don't make a lot of quality? Quantity, excuse me. Is it the substance of your video? Is it the lighting? Is it the audio? I believe quantity is a meaningful competitive advantage. And I think the receipts have played out. If you look at the people that are winning, quantity is a very consistent variable in the brands and the people that have elevated over the last three years. Now, that doesn't mean you can't win on quality and make one meaningful. They both exist. They both matter. And I would say on the AI and non-AI, I'd be shocked to my core if in four years I am not producing a lot of very authentic human non-scalable content and producing a lot of AI content. Right now AI is being demonized. You know, as the time of us recording, we're just coming out of a weekend where multiple people gave commencement speeches at college and being booed. People are scared about AI. They're scared that it's going to take their job. But, you know, what is authentic is also a very fascinating thing. I think of it like art. You know, they used to say that if art wasn't on a building, it wasn't real. Then, if it wasn't canvas, that it wasn't real. They all demonized Andy Warhol and Jackson Pollock and that contemporary art became real. In 40 years, NFTs and digital art will be considered art. It's just the way the world goes. So I would say my answer to everyone that's listening is you need to fall in love with and, and boy do people want or. People want or so damn bad. It's our issue with politics right now. People desperately want it to be red or blue and it's purple.
You know, people want the world to be black and white. People love for the world to be black and white. People desperately want the world to be black and white. There's nothing more obvious than that the world is gray. It's nuanced. It's contextual. It's so you know these are the things I think about.
On the other side of the spectrum we have AI and the people who are very much adopting it and part of the workflow. On the other side of the spectrum seemingly the opposite is IRL, human-to-human connection.
Yeah, when you're thinking about how a person by person, a creator or a brand incorporates IRL events, human connection into their strategy, how do you think about that?
I think it's the biggest thing I'm investing in at VaynerX.
We're building a substantial experiential infrastructure. I cannot believe in IRL more.
I believe with the extreme digitalization, we're seeing the emergence of clear indication that IRL is growing in importance. Music events, sporting events, all-time highs. Non-smartphones, vinyl, kids asking for Polaroids and cameras and DVD players and Walkmans. In fact, I said in another podcast earlier today, like I'm thinking about starting a drive-in movie theater business. Like, I'm very bullish IRL. I'm very bullish on detoxing from technology. At the same token, AI is going to win. Like, what do you think? You're not going to use AI? Like, every single person uses AI. All those kids that booed are using AI. Every single kid that booed at all the colleges used AI to write papers a week earlier. The hypocrisy is deafening. It's wild.
So, I think it's very clear to me that anyone who was against the typewriter lost their secretary job. Anybody who's against the computer, the fax machine, the cell phone, the beeper, social media, like it's not complicated. Technology is undefeated.
Everything has pros and cons.
But the rise of analog is here. I'm very bullish and I think people will value real life access. You know, if I'm a creator, I'm making unlimited content to the best of my ability, AI included, and then I'm using that to allow my fans to get access to me on Q&A sessions, digitally, on a Zoom, you know, like it's very clear to me that digital is the gateway drug to IRL.
And I think that's going to play out for the best creators.
What part of your life are you not having AI be integrated into?
I'm not letting it kiss my kids, you know? Like it's not doing like any but like anything AI can do that means nothing to me like reordering my deodorant or analyzing my calendar like anything AI means that doesn't fill my heart and soul I will let it do it cuz why wouldn't I? Like again these conversations for me historically is who uses candles instead of electricity cuz that was the argument when electricity was invented like don't do that, that it will bring demons into your home. You should use candles. Like I would never buy tomatoes on the internet cuz you have to go to the store and squeeze the tomato. Like that was like for some reason, this is a history lesson for everyone's listening. I don't know why, but in 1998, 1999, the go-to argument why e-commerce would never work is you can't buy your tomatoes on the internet. FreshDirect and Postmates and Amazon have proven that to not be real. Everyone's going to use AI everywhere where it makes it more convenient and saves you time.
I do agree except one thing I will say for someone who used to work in grocery. There are people who are very specific about produce because produce has the perishability.
You'll appreciate this. There's always going to be people.
there's people that never got a smartphone. But that doesn't become the norm.
That's an anomaly. I read a book once every two years.
Do you know how I read a book?
By reading a physical book.
Oh, really? Yep. I'll do it on a vacation where I completely check out and I don't want a Kindle. I don't want to read it on my phone. I want the physical book. It's an old school move. I enjoy the experience. But I would never make a business decision based on my opinion that once every two years when I read a book, I like it on a beach physical form. That's called making decisions based on your own preference.
I have never made a business decision based on my own preference. I've made them based on what I think the masses are going to do.
And that is the great mistake that most people make when it comes to business.
They make a decision based on their ideology and their preference.
I don't like to use social media.
Here's a news alert. I wouldn't use social media if I wasn't in the business. I don't know. Like I wouldn't post.
I don't use social media like normal people.
Yeah. You're not posting pics of your family. It's not how I roll. You know, if it wasn't for marketing and business, I would be a 50-year-old today that grew up in these last 20 years, probably incredibly inactive.
Fascinating. You have said though on the other side talking about how people are going to, as you're saying, everyone's going to end up using AI. Everyone's going to adapt technology. But you've gone as far as to say that people will marry technology. People will become literal cyborgs.
Does any part of that scare you?
Not really. Like it's not my cup of tea. I'm not sitting here like ecstatic that my granddaughter might marry an AI robot when I say that. But I don't like the hypocrisy when I know that this is just like the evolution. This is just like I don't think people understand.
Life does not stop while you're alive.
The world doesn't say, "Okay, now we freeze." Everything was scary.
Humans are inherently scared of change. They fear the unknown. I by nature don't and then professionally I definitely don't. There's no alternative. You know, people always think about the downside. What about the upside?
Like AI medicine has me ecstatic. Many, many, many, many, many, many millions of people will live much longer lives because AI was invented because they're going to be able to be diagnosed in a way that the human could not do.
You think an X-ray machine and a CAT scan are incredible technology? Wait till people realize what AI and cameras and all this. It's just incredible where this is all going.
For any of the AI naysayers, what I always say is what about all of the medical aspects.
And by the way, again, I don't understand why it needs to be a binary black and white. This is a gray conversation. Will there be negative things because of AI? You betcha. You know, when people are like, "Oh, it's so sad that people meet on Tinder and swipe left and right and they should meet at a bar." I'm like, "What about all the people that found love that way?"
There you go. So, like, why is that bad? You don't like it. You are romantic of how it should be.
But I remind everyone who's listening that's so romantic of how it should be. You love certain things right now that if you were born a 100 years ago, you would have been against cuz you were romantic of how it used to be. Do you know how many people's job pre the car and pre-electricity was to sweep up the crap from the horses on the street and to light the lanterns? Do you know how many hundreds of thousands of people's job it was to light the lanterns when it got dark on main streets all over the world? I don't have the audacity
to think my feelings should be so factored in to the universe's advancements.
In terms of the human-to-human connection again because I think this is really your superpower. I want to actually show you a video. It's of you.
That this is what I think of when I think of you.
I know one day I'm going to be somebody. You'll know what I... Please look at my face. You're somebody now.
Do you understand?
That's the game. If you don't think you're important, it's almost like your results don't matter. Who are you disappointing? Yourself? Those are voices that were put inside of you by somebody else. Do something. Fight for it. Fight to be happy. Listen to positive... That's a funny game. Listening happens when you cut out your most pessimistic friend, you become more optimistic. We are in some crazy dynamic of like overanalyzing everything.
so much with a layer of cynicism that is making everybody go crazy. If you are a good person and you're trying, truly trying, and not trying to hurt anybody, you're phenomenal.
That video, Gary, to me, it just is so classic you and everything that you stand for.
Today, you're one of the most famous people on the internet, but I think what is really incredible is you're somehow able to make these underdogs and people who are in the early stages of building feel like you're just one of them.
So where does that come from?
Well, first it comes from a deep desire for other people to be happy, too. It's just in me. DNA, parenting, circumstance. I get more joy when I see someone who isn't constantly joyful have moments of joy. It's always been in me. You know, it's the greatest gift of my life. I don't like the idea of people not realizing how miraculous life is. It's so crazy we're alive. You know, I failed every science class I ever took. But I just can't wrap my head around the insanity of that exact second of your parents deciding to hook up leads to you living. And to squander that on overly focusing on everything that isn't versus focusing on everything that is seems illogical to me. I understand why I spend a lot of time on psychology, but I'm incredibly motivated to help.
You know, I think once you're good, you aren't left with much else than to make everyone else good. I just got good way earlier than most.
And I don't mean financially. I'm talking about somewhere around fifth or sixth grade, it just started getting really clear to me. That life was simple, that I was who I was, that I was not going to listen to anybody outside of my own head and feelings. You know, I've just been happy for the, you know, and I just want other people to be happy, too. It's hard to give if you're not in a good place.
