Tonight, how a suspected Chinese spy and the president got within two degrees of separation, and what, if anything, the White House did about it. I'm Kaitlan Collins, and this is The Source.
Tonight, there's a growing scandal engulfing what is perhaps the most important company in the most important industry to the American economy. And it centers on the actions of one of the wealthiest, most powerful CEOs on the planet, who, as you can see here, has developed a close working relationship with the president of the United States and several of his top advisers. Jensen Wong has admitted to having a romantic relationship with a woman outside his marriage whom US intelligence believes may have been a spy for the Chinese government, funneling cutting-edge American technology to China. Now, that investigation is ongoing. The FBI is involved, and we're told tonight that there is disagreement among US officials about the strength of the evidence here. But even as this is playing out, Jensen Wong has resigned as the chief executive of Nvidia as the company's board prepared to push him out. This is how the president reacted to that news today.
Jensen Huang. Yeah. Resigned as CEO. Say it. Um, your feelings about that. Well, he's a tremendous talent. He did something that nobody else, you know, you have China and these, they copy, they pirate so much. Here's a chip that's so complex, so brilliant that you can't copy it. I mean, it's beyond copying because of the level of genius. Um, what he's done is incredible. He built an incredible, uh, Nvidia is unbelievable.
Should he have stepped down? Well, the big thing is, was the woman a spy? And I don't know if that's been determined yet, but if the woman was a spy, yes. If the woman was not a spy, perhaps it would be different.
CNN has learned that the FBI has actually been investigating Wong's affair for at least a year. When the Attorney General Todd Blanche was asked about it today, though, he said they've yet to reach any conclusions on that front.
When did the Justice Department learn with regard to Nvidia that Alice Wong might be a suspected Chinese asset? And there's been concerns raised that the Commerce Department was giving favoritism to Nvidia and Megaspe, which was Alice Wong's company. Do you share the concerns that maybe the Commerce Department was impeding the ability to uncover the smuggling network that Alice Wong was involved in?
Well, your first question assumes something that I have never said and that I don't know to be true. So, you assume that DOJ learns that she is in fact a spy. I'm not, nobody said that. I certainly haven't said that. There's no, there's no conclusions reached by the Department of Justice or by me or by Director Patel around who she is or is not. I don't have concerns with the Commerce Department.
Now, sources say that CIA officials are not yet convinced that the intelligence collected on Alice Wong so far, including intercepted communications, prove that she was knowingly funneling information back to Beijing. But there's heavy scrutiny tonight of how the White House has been handling these national security warnings, which certainly were elevated to not only Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick, but also the president himself. And the New York Times is reporting tonight that on Tuesday, the president actually called Jensen Wong and urged him to keep fighting for his job. That means we know of two phone calls they've had this week: one on Monday where the president said he called him to check in, and then again on Tuesday, according to the New York Times, to tell him to try to keep his job. And today he said this, called him a legend, talked about what a great job he's done running that company and building it, and then also suggested that the former Apple CEO Tim Cook should take over, continuing a pattern of his praise of Jensen Wong even as the scandal has unfolded.
Jensen Wong, do you know if he has a security clearance? I don't know. Do you know the nature of his relationship with the woman, the intelligence officer?
No, I don't know. I just know that he's an outstanding person, and I can't imagine it would be a problem, but we'll certainly find out about it.
I think, you know, I think he's an honorable guy. I think he probably has an excuse for it. You know, you have to hear it. He's an amazing guy. I just hope it's, I hope there's no problem. If there is a problem, we'll let you know about it. But I hope there's no problem. I believe he's suffering greatly.
When you went to China earlier this year in May, did you know about these alleged ties with the Chinese spy then, or?
No, I didn't hear about it then, but a lot of people have heard about it, and Jensen totally denies that. I asked him today, because I did speak to him today just to see if he's feeling all right, 'How you doing?' And I asked him about that, and he said he had absolutely no idea that the person in question was a spy.
Well, I'd certainly check with the intelligence people. They could have been mentioned. Certainly, it didn't make much of an impact on me.
The president says it didn't make much of an impact, but we are told at CNN that the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, personally briefed the president about what was going on. And despite those warnings, Jensen Wong still got on Air Force One with the president and flew with him to Beijing earlier this year. Now, the president is scheduled to go back to China next week. He's leaving from Washington on Monday. And ahead of that visit, this is how he's been framing concerns about Chinese espionage, including just today.
Indicting. Well, it could be. And you know, we also go after them. You know, it's not just a one-sided deal. Somebody said, 'Oh, they're tapping our phones.' I said, 'That's right. We're tapping their phones, too.'
Somebody was saying about China. What about China? We hear they're spying. We spy on them, too. It's the way it goes.
The question was asked to me yesterday, I guess. What about the fact that China's spying in the United States? I said, 'Well, it's one of those things, cuz we spy like hell on them, too.'
And over the last 10 months, the president has made it a point to shower Jensen Wong with praise repeatedly.
Jensen, who's a credible guy, might be here. I don't even know. Is Jensen here? I think he's around. Somebody said he's here. How is he? Pretty good, right? Where is Jensen, by the way? Where is he? He's standing here. Where is he? I just saw that. Thank you very much, Jensen. But what a job you've done. Thank you. We are proud to have you in our country. You know that. Jensen, we are honored to give you the highest award of its kind. Again, anywhere in the world, there is nothing like it. The National Medal of Science, and you truly deserve it. I'd like to welcome a very great gentleman to our midst, Jensen Wong, who's here someplace. And if we can do with an airport like he does with chips, it'll be the greatest airport anywhere in the world. Now, Jensen also has, Jensen's a very brilliant guy.
Now his relationship with the president clearly has paid off not only for his company and for China, as the president agreed to let the company sell its chips on the Chinese market in exchange for giving the United States government 25% of their profits. That, of course, is what has led to these talks that are happening on Capitol Hill tonight to have him come behind closed doors to testify as soon as next week potentially. There's a growing consensus, including among Republicans, also that the Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick, has some serious questions to answer as well.
Did Lutnick step down? Look, he got my vote of no confidence the day after Liberation Day.
Do you have confidence in Lutnick and the job that he's doing as Secretary of Commerce?
Well, I want to wait and see if the allegations are true and what he has to say about it, but I'd be concerned.
Yeah, the rumors are very concerning. The reporting is very concerning.
I would like for Secretary Lutnick ASAP to come testify before the Senate Banking Committee because we have a lot of bipartisan questions and concerns about what's happened over the last year that would allow some of these issues to continue to occur.
He's going to be called to testify in front of Congress, and I understand the Secretary of Treasury has some concerns about this. I want to hear from Scott Bessent. This is serious as an aneurysm.
And we start tonight with my first source, who is the tech expert and journalist as well as the host of the On and Pivot podcast, Kara Swisher. Kara, if you were a senator and Howard Lutnick was testifying before your committee, what would you ask him about Jensen Wong?
Well, I'd say this is as serious as an aneurysm, obviously. No, I would ask him about what happened and how he got in this relationship, and what he knew, and what the Trump administration told him about this person, even if there were concerns, and they certainly should investigate it. What he knew and when he knew it, and then what Trump knew and when he knew it. Because Jensen has had a point of view about China that others do not agree with, and there was a lot of fighting within the administration over it. But if this is even, you know, how did this happen? How did this happen? And what did you know and when did you know it, I think are the key questions.
I mean, it's pretty remarkable to see the president's reaction even today when he was speaking with Stephen A. Smith, given, you know, what is at stake here. And if all of this is true and this woman was a Chinese spy and asset for them, you know, how Jensen Wong was having a real impact on US policy here. I mean, the president, I would think, would be more concerned about that, given it's the decisions his administration was making potentially at the behest of this company and this CEO who's now embroiled in this massive scandal.
Yeah, of course. But this is exactly why he would be a fabulist about it. Why? Well, he has to say nothing's going on here, and they all have to go toe the line with him, because if there were, he's in real trouble here. Because this is serious national security issues, and to pretend that it's not a big deal is kind of ridiculous. It's gaslighting, you know, which is what he does all the time whenever something happens. Epstein's not a big deal. He was a nobody. This is nothing. Whatever. They're trying to throw doubt in a situation that requires real investigative work, which I don't expect from either Todd Blanche or Kash Patel. And so it's up to Congress to really look at this. And it looks like the Republican senators are at least taking national security issues seriously, as should the Democratic senators and Congress people.
Well, and I also think it raises questions of if this intelligence, you know, Todd Blanche was saying today that they had not confirmed, they didn't come to a conclusion about her being a Chinese spy, but clearly they thought it was serious enough to take it to the president for Marco Rubio to personally brief him on it. I mean, they don't do that lightly, and he still got on the plane.
No. Right, exactly, because Trump overruled it. Because Trump, you know, he's betting his entire administration on this closeness with AI executives, and Jensen was at the top of the heap here of these executives. And one of the things that's important is to continue this falsehood that everything's fine, and it's not fine. This is very serious by itself, even if he was just doing this. You know, lots of CEOs have gotten fired for this reason. Maybe he should or should not. But if there is any question that this person was working for the Chinese government, it has to be very seriously looked at. What my worry is, he'll go to China when he goes to visit Xi, and Xi will say, you know, he'll ask Xi, 'Did you do this?' And Xi will say, 'No.' And then he'll go, 'Look, he said he didn't. It wasn't true.' He'll do that nonsense. He believes other foreign leaders more than he believes our own intelligence organizations. And then he has, you know, his factotums like Todd Blanche and Kash Patel pretend there's nothing to see here. But I do think Marco Rubio did his job. I think it sounds like Scott Bessent was concerned, as he should be, because he properly understands the problems around national security. And we need to investigate this fully, and it will not be up to this administration, because they've got real conflicted interests here, but with the Congress and other investigators to look at this globally.
Yeah, I was surprised to hear Todd Blanche downplay whether or not she is a spy, because no one else in the administration has done that. I mean, Nvidia hasn't done that. Jensen Wong hasn't done that. I have not seen anyone else cast doubt on it. Obviously, she's not going to come out and say, 'Yeah, I am a spy.' But I do think, Kara, it leaves so many questions.
A lot of people looked at Nvidia as this massive success. A lot of people bought shares in it. It is. Where does it leave the company tonight with him resigning?
You know, I don't know. It'll be fine. Everyone talks about, you know, Lloyd Blankfein, who I think is very funny, used to run Goldman Sachs, said, you know, the graveyards are full of indispensable people. Apple survived the death of Steve Jobs, considered the absolute visionary. And these godlike figures, it'll be fine. Nvidia is a great company. It will be fine. The stock is down. As long as they keep doing what they do and building a great business and growing the way they're growing, they'll be fine. It doesn't rely on one person. Look, there's lots of people below him. You think he did this all by himself because he's a magical man in a leather coat? No, it's because he's built a company. It's just he was the only face of it at the same time. And you know, all these tech leaders think they hung the moon, and they didn't. It'll be fine without him, and we'll see where it goes and where he goes. He should probably focus on his family at this point. And I think a lot of the reporting is around, you know, him feeling regretful for what he's done, but he shouldn't be involved with all this. You know, he doesn't want to become a pawn in Trump's attempts to whitewash this situation. It should be fully investigated.
Kara Swisher, we'll see if he's testifying potentially as soon as next week. Great to have you back here with us on such a big story. Thank you for being here. I also have tonight joining me, Anthony Scaramucci, the former Trump White House communications director and founder of SkyBridge Capital. Bloomberg's White House correspondent, Jeff Mason, is also here. And Scaramucci, let me start with you, because I just want to know your big picture thoughts on what has unfolded in the last 24 hours alone, but also, I mean, you did work in the White House as a communications director briefly. What do you make of how they're handling this?
Well, listen, that's Donald Trump. It's like what Kara said. That's exactly how he would handle a situation like this. Even if you were advising him to handle it differently, he would never handle it differently. But I think there's something else going on that I want to add to what Kara is saying, and that is the China hawks in the national security architecture of the United States. The old guard establishment really pushed this thing to the forefront, and it looks like Secretary of State Rubio was alongside of them in the China hawk category. So JD Vance, who ran as a China hawk, Kaitlan, I guess he's no longer a China hawk, but I think this is very telling, that because of the midterms that came right after the midterms, the president is weaker. He has very low approval ratings, and you're now seeing the establishment assert itself again, which I think is an important part of this story.
Yeah. And you know, just how close he was. I do think that's a good point about the midterms and the timing of what we're hearing and how this is playing out. And Jeff, I mean, obviously at the White House, there's a lot of people, yes, the president is, you know, standing by, you know, praising Jensen Wong, saying he's a great guy. There's a lot of people in the West Wing who are pretty alarmed about this, from my understanding.
Yeah. Well, there's a lot to be alarmed about. And it's not just a question of national security and the impact that that has on this president, on this country. It's also in terms of the short term, it's something that's affecting the trip next week. The president's going to Asia. He's going to meet with President Xi. He has made clear over the last several months that he's not interested in having a framework for regulation of AI because he wants the United States to win the AI race against China. And Jensen Huang was critical to that race and was there with him for his last trip to China. I actually broke the news initially that he wasn't supposed to go on that trip with the first list of CEOs, and then the president didn't like all the coverage that came after that. And so when we...
Yeah, because he joined, he didn't leave with the president from Washington. He got on, he met them in Alaska when they were on the trip.
And he landed, he came to Alaska. I was on that particular leg. We got off the plane. We were on the tarmac, and a couple other reporters and I saw Jensen Wong walking across the tarmac towards Air Force One. So he was added to the trip last minute. You have to wonder now, and I don't know the answer to this, but you have to wonder if he wasn't initially on that list in May because of this.
That's really interesting. I mean, in terms of that, Anthony Scaramucci, and you're hearing that because it was weird that he got on the plane on the tarmac in Alaska. Everyone was kind of raising their eyebrows about that. They thought maybe it's just, you know, he's busy and he had stuff going on. Now that he might be called in front of Congress, I mean, he is going to be called in front of Congress. So is Lutnick and Bessent, the Commerce and Treasury secretaries. What would you be asking them?
