Wisdom Unplugged: Ft. Mr Anand Sundaresan

Thank you, thank you. It's a pleasure from my side as well to be chatting with you, discussing with you.

Okay, so I will start from my professional journey. I will leave the personal things for the time being. Basically, to start with, post my college I joined as a trainee in the Research and Development department of Larsen & Toubro. In fact, during my curriculum, I spent about six months of industrial training in L&T's R&D department. That is how I subsequently also got employment, to start my employment as a trainee in Research and Development of L&T. This was a completely different field. This was in the division used to be called the Nuclear Division, where we were doing the analysis or the design work for heat exchangers, tube sheets, and also ultra-high pressure vessels and those sorts of products. After I joined L&T, I was probably sent for a special training in L&T to the Structural Engineers Research Center in Chennai, because I was selected for the position of taking care of the experimental stress analysis by photo-elastic method. Since I was from the mechanical side, I was taking care of that. There was a colleague of mine who was taking care of the stress analysis with strain gauges and all. So I was sent to SERC, as I mentioned, in Chennai for a training on how to do the modeling, how to do the analysis, how to look through the polaroid glasses and see the pattern, and to analyze that. Probably L&T was only one of the private companies in India who had those equipments, because these were all imported equipment from the US, and I don't think any other Indian company at that point of time—I'm talking about 1977—had those sorts of sophisticated equipment and all the peripherals necessary for the analysis. So that was really fun. I got not a routine thing like once you join as a trainee you do routine things like being a supervisor on the shop floor or in marketing or sales. It was completely different. I was also assisting my boss in finite element analyses for tube sheets, because tube sheet is a very critical component. There are so many holes in the tube sheet, and when the pressure goes high, that is a place where the crack can take place. So we had to analyze that. This was really quite fun. After about four and a half years of working in L&T, in 1981 to be precise, I left L&T and went to M/s. NMEL & Mahindra in their Material Handling division. They used to manufacture all the tea plantation machinery—tea dryers and all those things—for all the tea gardens. I joined the Material Handling division as a service engineer. I spent there about one and a half years, and then later I was shifted to the sales department selling forklift trucks for the industries. Actually, the job was very good and there was a lot of learning from Mahindra as well.

In Mahindra, they don't take them as a sales engineer; they take them only as a sales and service engineer. So anyone who joins them, by default, has to join the service department only. In my opinion, this is a very good thing, because once you are in the service department, you get to know about the product thoroughly well. You start from the smallest equipment which is a hand pallet truck, and then slowly it goes up to the battery-operated forklift trucks, and we had several models. So practically, during the journey of almost one and a half years, you have to physically work with your own hands. As luck would have it, there was one person from our sales department who quit the company, so they were looking for someone, and I was shifted from the service department to the sales department. That's how I came to sales. Mr. Punala was there—a gentleman who was a fantastic salesman. Like you say, the book salesman is perfect. It used to be perfect. Sometimes I used to take him to my customers also. It was a pleasure listening to him and also learning from him—how to conduct with people, how to conduct with customers, how to explain, and how to negotiate. This was something I really learned from him, though it was only a short period of about three months. Then there was an opening in Greaves Cotton at that time, and one of my friends was also working in Greaves Cotton. I saw some opening in Greaves Cotton for a sales position, and he said it's a good company, why don't you join. So I applied for the job and got selected there. That's how I came into the construction equipment division in Greaves Cotton.

Greaves Cotton, basically when I joined, they were not manufacturing any construction equipment, but they were representing a lot of overseas companies from the construction equipment. To name a few, there used to be a company called Hanomag—we used to supply wheel loaders, dozers, and those sorts of equipment. Then we were representing Aveling Barford—they used to make vibratory compactors. We used to represent TX for their transmissions. And then we used to represent a host of mining companies—for tunnel boring machines, side discharge loaders, etc. Being in Bombay, there was no mining; most of our mining division people used to sit in Kolkata. But the boss for the mining division and the construction equipment division were the same. Since they did not have any office in Bombay, I was always young and these things, so they used to ask me to do their job whenever there was some work. So I got involved in mining products as well—like road headers, power supports, ventilation equipment for tunnels, all sorts of stuff. It was really fantastic training in Greaves Cotton. As I said, they were not manufacturing anything. In fact, the first manufacturing under a license agreement started with Schwing. Way back in 1983, the discussions had already started, and we supplied the very first Schwing trailer concrete pump to S.A. Pall for one of their projects in Bombay. That was one of the first products which Greaves started manufacturing under a license agreement from Schwing Germany. Then of course the second product which Greaves started manufacturing was vibratory compactors in collaboration with Bomag. So we had a license agreement with Bomag. I was one of the key people in promoting this particular product. It was all produced in Chennai, and I think the Western region was my responsibility. I was one of the persons who was very successful in selling the Bomag vibratory rollers in the country, because at that time the Narmada project was going on, the irrigation project. So at that time, a lot of contractors from the Western region had the requirement for vibratory compactors. We were able to sell a lot of compactors from the Western region.

We had products starting with construction equipment, mining equipment, drilling equipment, then heavy engineering, and metallurgy. These were five small divisions which were clubbed together and called the General Engineering Division. Construction equipment was the biggest out of these. In the drilling equipment division, we had a factory in Nasik where we used to produce rock roller bits for mining applications—for drilling holes for drilling and blasting. The rock bits we used to supply from Greaves Cotton, we used to manufacture that. Then we had a heavy engineering division, which was a material handling equipment division; we used to supply EOT cranes and special cranes for industrial applications as well as for steel plants and other things. Then we had a metallurgy division; it was predominantly crucibles. We had a factory in Aurangabad where we used to manufacture crucibles for melting non-ferrous material like aluminium or any aluminium alloy. That was a very different product. When you compare the construction equipment costing lakhs of rupees, this was a product each single piece used to cost 10,000 rupees, 12,000 rupees. But it was part of our group. Also, we used to represent a lot of companies in our metallurgy division from abroad, they used to supply special metals used in defense and in aircraft industries and many other places. We also had heating elements which are used in furnaces. Then of course we had our mining division. In mining division, predominantly everything was an agency division, we can say. We were also representing a few companies of India where we used to supply to the mines for the underground mines. We used to supply man-riding holes, side-discharge loaders, and overseas companies we used to supply side-discharge loaders, ventilation systems, road headers, power supports, crushers, and all different types of mining equipment. But that predominantly was an agency division. When I quit Greaves Cotton, our division was about 100 crores—I'm talking about 1997, 100-110 crores. During those days, that used to be a very big number. Today, 100 crores is not a very big thing, but in '97, 100 crores was a very big number. The total Greaves Cotton, though it was more than 150 years old, the total turnover of that company was about 500 crores. Out of that, about 100-110 crores was coming from our group, and we also substantially contributed towards the bottom line of the company.

By that time, India's economy had opened up in '92-'93, and it was possible to set up a 100% subsidiary in India. So there were two reasons. One: Schwing at that time was also investing a lot of money in China; they wanted to set up a factory in China, so they didn't want to do anything in India. Number two: they had taken a sort of a policy decision saying that they will not go for either a joint venture or will not go for a license agreement in the future. Since in India it was possible to set up a 100% subsidiary, they said that if at all we come to India, we would prefer to come as our own subsidiary. But since Greaves Cotton had been representing Schwing for a long time, they said you can continue to be our sole distributors and sales distributors and service agents. That was the situation. The friction was going on. Greaves Cotton was a fantastic organization. I got to learn a lot. Whatever commercial knowledge I have gained, all the credit goes to Greaves Cotton—the way of functioning and all. So I would say that I was lucky, getting all the technical knowledge from L&T and Mahindra, and the commercial knowledge from Greaves Cotton. Coming back to our topic, in 1996-'97, I quit Greaves Cotton and joined a company that now belongs to the TATA group—the steel group. That was again because my discussion always used to be only with the design department, because this product—large diameter bearings for material equipment—has to be designed to meet the service requirement, the load requirement. That was a really fantastic thing; I used to love that product. When they said they would like to start something in India, they wanted me to be their first man. I requested them to also include my former boss as the number one man. I said, 'Anyway, he's already reaching his superannuation, so I don't mind working with him because I worked with him for a long time and had an excellent rapport. I'll work with him for a few years and then slowly take over.' So they said it's fine. We started a company in Chennai. We did a lot of surveys to see where we should start, and finally we found Chennai a nice place to come. So we started our office in Chennai. As luck would have it, after my leaving Greaves Cotton, the relationship between Schwing and Greaves deteriorated further. There was literally no cooperation; both of them were fighting. They approached me and said, 'We would like to start our own operation in India. Will you be interested to join?' Anyway, the relationship was coming to an end, so I said why not, because I knew that product. When I was in Greaves Cotton, we had developed it so much. Maybe we can talk about that a little later. I was really quite fascinated with that particular product, and when they said they want to come to India, I was obviously very much interested.

We started Schwing Stetter in a two-bedroom apartment in Chennai in the year 1998, beginning of 1998. In fact, 1999 was our first full year of operation. In 1998, we were looking for a place to set up an assembly shop or something. Finally, we got one rented place—about 2 acres of land—and it did not even have a manufacturing facility. The owner agreed to make a shed for us. We were looking for a 10,000 square foot shed. We constructed that, it took about five or six months. I think our first invoice was for the first truck mixer Indian assembly truck mixer on the 11th of August 1998. I still remember that date. That was the first day we did the thing. We did not have any welding fabrication unit; we had a sub-supplier, and we used to send the truck mixers to him. We were getting all the truck mixer components in the form of cones from Russia because we had a factory in Russia. So the steel portion used to come from there, the hydraulics from Germany, the diesel engine from India—all these put together we used to assemble. As luck would have it, we were successful there. That is also the place where we started our first 30 cubic meter batching plant. In this 30 cubic meter batching plant, the value addition from India was only the platform, ladder, and painting. Then we also started assembling the stationary concrete pumps, I think also in the year 1999. When we started getting success, because when we went to our customers—customers like L&T, many other big companies, or Gammon India—all these people had used Schwing equipment for their projects abroad, but unfortunately they were not able to use these equipments in India because of the closed economy. If they had to import, this was not manufactured in India; they had to go through license processes and a lot of formalities. That is why they were not using them in India before us. Of course, Putzmeister was already existing in India at that time, our major competitor. They had a tie-up with a company called Miller—that company doesn't exist anymore—and they used to make drum-type batching plants. They had a tie-up with them. But when we started, we took a real full throttle, and we were much more successful. After that, of course, Putzmeister had a joint venture agreement with Aquarius in Pune, but that all happened later. As far as we are concerned, when they saw success, the controlling department in Germany had made a business case saying we should not invest anything in India because this company will never make a profit even after 5 years—it will be a disaster getting into India. But as luck would have it, we started making profit from the very first year. That is the reason our people in Germany said, 'OK, we have started, and we never in our anywhere we set up our plants did we make profit, so I think we should go ahead with investing in India.'

My boss at that time was Mr. G. He was a great moral booster. He used to come to India very often, and we worked together very closely to bring up Schwing Stetter India. He said, 'Come on, let us set up a factory now.' That's how we set up our first factory, which was inaugurated by the Governor of Tamil Nadu. Second factory in 2004, third factory in 2006, fourth factory in 2010, and a fifth huge one when I left the company in 2019. Of course, it was not fully finished then—the pandemic came—and it was subsequently finished by my successor. So in 2000, before 2018, my contract was there. After 2018, about 2-3 years before that, I said, 'OK, I will hang up my boots because by that time I was completing more than 41 years of service in industry. So I said it's better to hang up the boots and take rest and pursue my childhood hobbies—I wanted to play some instrument or learn some music or something. So probably I'll do that. But what happened was in 2019, end of 2019 beginning of 2020, the Ammann people approached me. I knew them as well; they had visited our factory in India and seen our facility. They used to come to India for exhibitions. They were looking for an opportunity to start something in India, but they were very clear they didn't want to start business from scratch like Schwing did. They wanted to acquire a company or start a joint venture. They were already searching for some company in India. At that time, he had asked me whether I would like to quit Schwing and join him, but that was in 2013-'14. I was not interested to leave Schwing at that time, so I said no. I also referred him a few of my earlier colleagues whom he could consider for that position, but unfortunately it didn't happen. In 2013, they invested a 70% stake in Gujarat Apollo, and the 30% partner—the owners of Gujarat Apollo—their son was the managing director. In 2020, beginning, I got a call from them saying they would like to start this company and wanted me to come there because once they acquire 100% of that company, obviously the owner's son will have to relinquish his position. So they wanted somebody to set things right and also look for a young CEO to install him and then come out of it. Of course, I had a lot of opportunities to be advisors or consultants—many people invited me—but I thought this is another challenging opportunity—why not try? But I told him very clearly I'll be there only for about 3 to 5 years, maximum 3 years. So we shifted because I strongly believe that as a CEO, you have to be in the shop floor; you have to be attached to the place where the action is. It's not only sitting in some faraway place. Especially for companies like ours which are starting or growing, the presence of the CEO in the place where the action takes place is extremely important. That's my personal opinion. So I told them very clearly I will not operate from Chennai; I didn't even ask for that. I said I will shift to Ahmedabad. Of course, I will travel, but I would like to stay in the city. I myself offered to come. They were also quite happy that I'm shifting to Gujarat. It was a fantastic experience for me. Finally, in the beginning of 2023, I told them that at the end of 2023, I would like to go back to Chennai. So we started looking for a successor for me, and finally we got a good successor, Mr. Das Panda. I handed over charge to him; he joined two or three months before I actually retired in December 2023. He was with me for three months, and he is now independently operating. I'm in Chennai, I'm still on the board, and I do some special projects for Ammann. I'm quite happy about the whole thing. So far, it works quite well. Now we have to see where we go from here. So that is my journey, of course there are so many stories inside the story, small challenges and other things we faced.

I would say that I was first of all very lucky. I was very lucky because I always had very good bosses. I had a very good rapport at all the places wherever I worked. To start with, when I was in L&T, I was picked up by Dr. Rohit Sharma. I told you I was a college trainee for six months in L&T. He picked me up and gave me a project because that was the time they were setting up a stress analysis laboratory. So he gave me that work during my college. He literally trained me. I can still remember so many sentences or words he told me which are even today very, very relevant, and I use them sometimes with some of my colleagues as well. He was an excellent mentor. I'm still in touch with him once in a while. Then when I was in Mahindra, there was Mr. Punala. I mentioned to you, he was my boss even when I was in the service department or in sales department. He was a perfect salesman, absolute perfect salesman, and I could learn a lot from him. Then the third, when I came to Greaves Cotton, again I had excellent bosses who shaped me. The company itself, Greaves Cotton, is a fantastic company, especially during those days. It was a very reputed concern, and we could learn the real business and hardcore marketing. People, let me tell you, I have not seen that even many of my competitors. I don't want to name those companies, but Greaves Cotton at that time used to be far, far superior with respect to marketing, after-service, customer relationship—fantastic. So I was lucky there as well. There again I had my boss, Mr. M. M. A., with whom I had an excellent rapport. Then subsequently, in the region, I had a gentleman by name Padmanabhan, who was also very great. Finally, in Schwing, I told you my boss who was the chairman of the Schwing Stetter India, that person was also excellent. So I was very, very lucky that I always had good bosses who trained me, who mentored me, and made me what I am today. There are many happy moments when I talk about converting lost orders into orders or other challenges we had. So many, it's endless if I think about it, so many things come to my mind. It's very difficult to point out just one.

Many challenges, otherwise we wouldn't have grown to this extent. The first challenge, when we started Schwing in India, I'm not talking much about Greaves Cotton or L&T. I would say that the first 20 years or so of my service was more of a training for me. I got trained by L&T, got trained by Mahindra, my bosses trained me; Greaves Cotton was fantastic training on the business side, on commercial. So coming to Schwing, that was practically my own baby because there was nothing existing in India; it was started from scratch. As I mentioned, we started from a two-bedroom apartment, and from there today, Schwing has a factory area of almost 90 acres and a covered area of something like 20 lakh square feet. That is the kind of thing we were able to grow in a period of 20 years or so. They completed 25 years now, but I was there up to 21 years. So in these 25 years, we had a lot of challenges. Some of the very key challenges: when we started the operation in India, we were accepted with open arms by all the customers. Our target was to bring down the cost of the equipment; if you don't bring down the cost of the product, it's very difficult. I still remember we were assembling truck mixers in Chennai, and the initial few truck mixers of 6 cubic meter capacity we sold had a lot of import content. I have myself refused orders for less than 12.5 lakhs to ACC. I'm talking about 22-23 years ago. Because we had huge import content, and also the import duty was very high during those days. The basic import duty initially was 85%, then came down to 55%, then to 35%. So we are talking about that time. Obviously, though the exchange rate was low, the import duty was very high. I refused orders at 12.7 lakhs, but then of course they came back and placed orders with us. Today, the same truck mixers after 20 years are sold at 8.5 lakhs or 8.25 lakhs. So you can imagine the kind of localization or indigenization we have done, and we were able to bring down the cost. The idea was very clear: bring down the cost of the product and substantially improve the customer base. The first batching plant we supplied to L&T way back in 2000, where I told you my value addition was only a platform and a ladder, cost something like 65 lakhs or 70 lakhs because the entire plant was imported. Today, the 30 cubic meter batching plant with much better control system, much better accuracy, electronically controlled, with hundreds of recipes stored, costs only about 35-40 lakhs. That's the kind of cost reduction that has happened. Me and my team at that point of time were all instrumental in bringing down the cost of the equipment. We localized as much as possible without losing quality, without losing sight on serviceability. Today, Schwing has supplied more than 5,000-6,000 units of the 30 cubic meter plant. It took maybe 50 years for Germany to reach 50,000 truck mixers, but in India we reached the same 50,000 in about 20-22 years. That's the growth we got only because we were able to bring down the cost substantially. Doing all these things is a big challenge. Between 2000 and 2007, before the recession, we were growing at the rate of 67% year on year. We started with a turnover of about 21 crores in the year 2000, and then we went to about 750-820 crores in 2007-2008. When you have that kind of growth, developing suppliers, training sales people and service engineers—it was all a big challenge. Fortunately, I had excellent colleagues. We had a CFO who could independently take care of all finance, getting money from the bank, import-related activities. In the sales side, one of them—the current COO—was taking care of South and Eastern region, and Ramesh, who is now the CEO in Bomag, was taking care of North and Western region. Both were good in their own way. That support was fantastic. In the purchase department, I had a colleague who was excellent in supplier development, vendor development. He also worked with me in Greaves Cotton. All of us incidentally had worked in Greaves Cotton except our CFO, so we had that understanding and rapport. On the engineering side and production side, there was someone who is now the CEO of Axis Fury—he was a strong technical person. From design to indigenize the products, we needed a strong design department, and he was able to take care of that. Frankly speaking, we had the necessary managerial bandwidth in all departments, which was extremely critical. Most of the time what happens is that there is an imbalance between one department and another. In industry, I personally feel that you have to have a complete balance—production, engineering, marketing, sales and service, service department, supply chain, finance—everything has to have a balance. Over a period of time, we had a fantastic team, and we were able to grow the company to such a great extent. The challenge of growing so fast at 67% year on year was overcome.

The second challenge was in 2008, when the Lehman Brothers collapse happened. In 2008 we had ended up with a turnover of something like 800 crores. Suddenly, only 50% of that was looking at our face because it affected the construction industry very badly. We had already placed orders for diesel engine supplies for our trucks, steel, hydraulic components—practically everything. I had overseas supplies and Indian supplies. My inventory was 400 crores, my borrowing was 260 crores, my outstanding was more than 200 crores, and 2009 turnover was only 500 crores. So you can imagine the financial pressure. Fortunately, we were very well supported. We were able to stop supplies from local suppliers because everybody knew, but I was not able to stop supplies from abroad because all LCs were open, everything done—they were just dumping the material on us. I was really not able to do anything about that. But over a period of time, we had to do a lot of planning and using what was available. Finally, our borrowing came down from 400 crores to 55 crores by around 2015-2016. There were ups and downs due to scams, but we managed. When I retired in 2019, that was the best time; we went to a turnover of something like 1,400 crores. These are some of the challenges we faced in Schwing Stetter. Coming to Ammann, it also had its challenges. It was a proprietary concern initially, and most of the people, except a few at senior level, were from local Mehsana. They had a completely different way. There were issues in the purchasing department, so all these things had to be streamlined. On top of that, COVID happened—the whole industry was down, and we had to manage that. Ammann was a profit-making company, so there was pressure to retain profit. Anyway, end of the day, our export was down but now we are doing extremely well. There are still a lot of things to be done. We have a completely new set of purchase department; all the old people are gone. We also had challenges in getting the right people. In Schwing, we had a concept of training employees at all levels from the beginning—training on welding, soft skills, leadership. It was a continuous process, which in my opinion helped a lot.

That was a big challenge. My wife would always complain, and I myself started realizing that probably I should have concentrated a little bit more with my family, which unfortunately I did not do. Let me be very frank. What I would tell others is that you have to give some time to your family, but I realized it very late. When I was in my career, I used to think that one holiday once a year of 15-20 days of complete focus on family would be more than enough. I think that is wrong, especially when your children are growing—that is the time you should spend a little bit more time with them. Work-life balance is important. Ratan Tata has said that he doesn't believe in work-life balance but in work-life integration—make your work meaningful and fulfilling so that they complement each other. I don't know how to interpret this, but maybe that's a good statement.

Basically, if I have to tell you, I was a CEO of the company. Somewhere I read that CEO is not 'Chief Executive Officer' but the full form of CEO is Customers, Employees, and Organization. I took it a little bit seriously, and I think that is also relevant. The most important thing when you talk about doing a successful business is the customer. The customer is the focus. We used to really bend backward to satisfy the customer. Of course, I'm not saying all customers are reasonable; we also get some unreasonable customers. But the customer is very, very important. If you focus too much on the customer, that will definitely bring success. What we were doing in Schwing, and even other companies, is that the focus has to be on the customer. We even used to take out material from an already assembled machine and supply to them when their machine was under breakdown. Second, to satisfy the customer, we focused on quality because our product was a German product. Schwing was a very reputed name in the concreting industry, as is Ammann in the asphalting industry. People are used to having the best European quality equipment. Being a 100% subsidiary of this company, we cannot afford to spoil the name of our parent company. That is one area everybody should focus on. It is very important. Then when it comes to employees, you have to treat employees as human beings. Forget about whether he is a permanent employee, contract employee, sweeper, service provider, or canteen service provider—every single person in the organization is extremely important. If a sweeper doesn't do his job properly, visitors will come and say the company is dirty. But if he does his job properly, visitors will say what a beautiful job, how neat and clean the factory is. So every job in the company is important. Respect the people. Your interaction with others should be as if you are in their place. This is extremely important. In our company, we had certain things. When we started, it was so far away, there were no hotels nearby. When customers or suppliers came, many people would treat them as 'He is just a supplier, leave him alone.' But we had a culture that anybody coming to our office after 12:00 noon had to have food in our office. This was communicated down the line. I used to tell them not to just give a coupon and ask them to go; whoever is your guest, go along with them, sit with them, satisfy him. A satisfied customer will give you repeat business, and a satisfied supplier will also give you good product. He is a business partner. I learned from Mr. Raj Bhandari from Coco that he said, 'Don't call me a vendor or supplier; call me a business partner.' In fact, we changed our badge. Instead of 'Visitor', we changed it to 'Business Partner'. This is one of the core values: treat not only the customer but also employees and suppliers properly. Then when I talk about organization, first of all, a CEO or any person should not have any vested interest. If he has a vested interest, then the company will go down the drain. You are employed by the company; the employer is giving you your salary. If you don't like it, leave. But compliance and working with ethics is the utmost thing one should do. These are the three things. Also, make sure you produce good quality product, supply good quality product, provide after-sale service to customers. These are things I would very strongly tell anybody who is going to run a factory, or for any employee. You may be an external customer or an internal customer—every person has a customer. Treat your customer as customer and bend backward to support him. I think the company will thrive and become extremely successful. That's my very strong belief.

I don't know whether many of them will like my books because I normally try to read mythological books. Mythological books are equally important. Especially Mahabharata and Sri Krishna's speech—you can pick up a lot of small things from that book which you can apply to your work life and personal life. It definitely benefits. That is my favorite. I have read practically all sorts of mythological books. There are a few authors whose books I have read: one is Devdutt Pattanaik, then Anand Ramesh Menon, Kavita Kane—she writes very beautiful books especially on female characters. Most mythological books write predominantly about male characters, but Kavita Kane is one writer who has written a lot of books on female characters. Now I'm reading a book called 'Tara'—that is about Tara, who is the wife of Vali, and she is also the star who was Brihaspati's wife, but she was in love with Chandra. So I like this mythological book. Other than that, I also try to read some self-motivating or self-learning books. For example, I like one book written by Harsha Bhogle, 'Winning Ways.' I think all salespeople should read that. He has compared cricket with business and very beautifully explained how a salesman should behave. It's fantastic. There is a book I read by Marshall Goldsmith, 'What Got You Here Won't Get You There.' That's an excellent book. You are successful in a particular company or operation not only because of you, but also because of the circumstances, the timing. What happened to us in Schwing is that we came at the right time, we were the first to do this. I had a boss with forward thinking. Sometimes we used to laugh at what he was telling, but by year end we were achieving more than what he told us. So we had good motivators. We had a balance of all departments. So I cannot say that because I am successful here, I will be successful there. If the atmosphere and opportunity do not exist there, you have to create that and bring a similar kind of atmosphere only then you can be successful. That's what the book says. Then of course I do some investment in shares, so there is a beautiful book I read recently, 'The Psychology of Money'—I don't remember the author, but it's a very good book. These are some of the self-motivating or self-learning books.

Thank you, thank you.