From Ivy League to Investment Banking: How Josh Landed His Dream Job | Full Webinar | OfficeHours

Yeah, of course. So I'll start with just what I'm doing now. So again, Rohit, thanks for having me on. Big fan of Office Hours and this podcast and webinars that you throw. I think it's super informative. I actually wish this was around when I was in banking or before. I feel like I would have been a lot more informed going into my interviews and what I was doing. Not just to pander because I'm on your podcast, but I think coaching is always an invaluable service, whether it's from mentors, peers, friends, whatever. You're a personal coach of mine too, and vice versa, I know. And so it's something that I can't encourage enough from the listeners of this podcast or just anyone. But yeah, so I'm the Director of Investments at Four Corners right now. Four Corners, or the full name is Four Corners Property Trust. We are a publicly traded net lease REIT. And I know I just said a bunch of words and there's some listeners that might not understand or fully be in the know, just like I was before. So a REIT is a real estate investment trust. It's just a type of real estate holding vehicle as an alternative to a private fund or private equity. And net lease is just a lease structure. And I know you and I have talked about this before too, but it's a type of lease structure that maximizes sort of tenant ownership and tenant management and really prioritizes passive landlord ownership as well. And so that's what I'm doing now. I know you already mentioned my bio before, but I was at Goldman doing real estate investment banking prior to joining Four Corners, and undergrad at Harvard before that. And I can go as far back as you'd like, but I'll probably stop there.

Yeah, so I think that's a great point you make, because really I think it's not only about coaching to say, 'Hey, here's how you should do this and here's an invaluable skill that you should learn,' but it's almost even letting you know what possibilities are out there, right? And so I was fortunate enough, exactly as you mentioned, to have a family that prioritized higher education. And my older sister actually went to Harvard, and so she was, I guess, one of the very first coaches for me, in addition to my high school counselor. I know there are probably tons of unsung geniuses out there who didn't even know the possibility of higher education or of these prestigious private institutions that, if you went to a public school like myself, they didn't come to your school to recruit often, or they weren't always in touch with these counselors. And so it was really up to us to be proactive in outreach to them. And again, fortunately for me, I've had people in my life who I've seen as both role models and accomplished this. I knew it was a possibility. I knew it was possible for someone like me. And after that, it was just the easy part of just getting great grades, awesome teacher recs, and standing out amongst all the other candidates.

Yeah, so I thought Harvard is still probably one of the most impactful both communities and experiences I've had. It was an awesome experience. But Harvard, we'll admit to this themselves, right, they don't cater you to any specific job, vocation, or even skill. Their thesis of a liberal arts education is really how we're going to teach you how to think, right, and how to learn. And so it was an incredible experience from that standpoint. But at the time, there were no real estate classes. There were really no finance classes either. My major was economics. If you wanted to learn finance, if you wanted to learn accounting, you would have to take those across the river at MIT and cross-register. So for me, the real estate experience was not kind of bred at Harvard. It was, I might have told you this story too before, it was kind of through a tangential way. So I knew I wanted to go into finance, and I had a rough idea that I wanted to go into investment banking. And so I did various investment banking internships while I was at Harvard, explored a bunch: Credit Suisse in Hong Kong, did Barclays in New York. And after that, it was after my junior year internship. Now this was the summer of 2013, was when Detroit filed for bankruptcy. I'm sure you remember this. And as you know, I grew up around the area, and I suddenly had a feeling that, hey, I wanted to do something about this, or this is something that I feel like it galvanized some sort of interest in me. And so me and two other friends, we came back to campus and were like, 'Let's do something about this.' And we started a social venture called Revive Detroit. And yeah, we were three kids with laptops trying to solve a profound municipal problem. And got some encouragement. We won Harvard's Igniting Innovation Challenge, it was a pitch competition, got some seed funding, and started going through this before we realized we were way over our skis, right? But one of the good things that came out through this experience was that I got to meet a lot of cool people. And I was talking to almost anyone in real estate that would speak to me, because that's something that I needed to learn a lot about if I wanted to help rebuild parts of the city. And so Harvard had this really, really cool tool that I hope they still have, but it was called Crimson Compass. And you would log on and you would type in, you could filter by class year, by industry, or whatnot, or by region, and they would show you a list of alumni that were willing to talk to students. And I think that's one of the coolest things that Harvard has to offer, right? And you reach out, and maybe it's an actual like platform. Yeah, it's almost like a Facebook, but for alumni. And it was, you're told not to spam, right? You can only send X amount of emails or outbounds a day. But this was a tool that if you were a student like me who is starry-eyed but didn't really know what he was doing, I wanted to learn more about real estate. I could see, 'Oh hey, here's a Harvard alum in Dallas,' and this is exactly what happened, who's in real estate and is willing to talk to me. I'm going to reach out and see if he could spare some time and tell me about the industry, what he's doing, etc. And one of those alumni, his name is Jeff Frank, still a mentor and a coach of mine today. But he was in Goldman's group. I had a great conversation with him, and it was largely through that that I wound up with an interview. Now when I first talked to him, I was telling him all about the startup I was doing and had no interest in Goldman. And a few months later, I realized I should probably call this guy back and see if he could offer me a job.

Yeah, so I interned at Barclays my junior summer. I did sort of this Revive Detroit thing during the end of summer and the beginning of fall. And I didn't join or interview with Goldman until kind of late fall-ish, and kind of committed to them then. But yeah, that's where I started full-time doing investment banking. The name of my group was REFG, which stood for the Real Estate Financing Group, also known as the CMBS group at Goldman. Now CMBS is a bit of a misnomer now, it's largely what we do, so not entirely. But our group, especially at the time, we did a lot of balance sheet lending as well. But it was generally the lending group of real estate. And that was a cool experience because when you got actual asset-level experience versus like a coverage group, where you're really just advising companies, which is not to say you don't get good real estate experience, but you're getting more corporate experience that just happens to own real estate versus actually understanding the underlying real estate. But also on the financing side, you're just seeing a ton of deal flow. And we saw, I covered industries, the large industrial portfolio, we did the largest CMBS 2.0 acquisition financing of CMBS since the financial crisis, and that was in course platform with GIC and Blackstone. We did mall portfolios, office portfolios, hotel portfolios. Funny enough, the only sector I probably didn't cover was net lease, where I am today.

Yeah, you know, I think this was, I had a little bit more time, but I still remember when I was in banking and it was like a cold February New York day, and we suddenly got all these emails from headhunters saying buy-side recruiting has started. And I know you're living and reading this every day, but being a second year analyst, right, into our first year actually, still analysts at that time, and you just had a few months under your belt, you hear this is coming and everyone's just scrambling, stressing, or freaking out, or excited as well, right? And there are some folks that have been practicing LBOs and models for months, and other folks which were like, 'I don't know what to do.' And so for me, while I had some coaches as I mentioned earlier in my life tell me about college and stuff, I didn't know as many people that have done this traditional finance route, so I didn't really have people that I could count on for how do I prep for buy-side or private equity recruiting. But as I was kind of going through these interviews, I kind of realized as well, like, I don't know if I wanted to just go to a typical private equity shop or a hedge fund where it's the additional two plus two plus two, right? Two years banking, two years private equity, two years business school, then two years somewhere else. I was pretty set that I wanted to go somewhere where I could really just accelerate myself and launch my career, but also know that I have a home for a while. And I had a really good piece of advice from a mentor of mine who said, 'You should pick your company based off your boss, right? And don't join a company where your boss is just going to be someone who is born a year or two earlier than you.' And when you're early on in your career, I think it's absolutely fine to have a boss that's just a couple years older who's maybe just a senior analyst or a senior associate, because at that point you don't know anything, you're just learning, and a couple years of experience still really matters, it makes a difference. But as you progress your career, you really want to learn from someone that you think is highly intelligent, that is a creative thinker and a critical thinker at that. And so I talked to a few different firms and shops, and when I had a conversation with Four Corners, I knew right away. Our CEO, Bill Linehan, who I was introduced to, he was the guy that I wanted to learn from. And I would be reporting directly to the CEO, learning direct from him, versus nothing against this, but maybe just another senior associate or a junior VP at a private equity or a hedge fund. And that was really a compelling story for me. I had not done anything in net lease prior, having done anything in restaurants, but it was a chance to kind of join a company at the ground level and really launch with that. That was largely the most exciting thing for me.

Yeah, really. I would just add on to that and say that you're exactly right. In an industry or a skill such as investing, where it's such a broad and kind of lifelong skill, when people ask me, I almost tell them that you should treat your job as like an apprenticeship, right? Something as broad and lifelong as that, find someone where you're willing to learn from them for not just a year or two, but for the next five years or ten years. And what's really going to accelerate you is when you have a strong mentor and you treat it like an apprenticeship to really craft this specific skill. I thought that's been super valuable.

I think initially if you were to ask 22-year-old Josh, you'd be like, 'Well, how does that make sense? How would they know more than you if they're younger than you?' But I have met some extremely brilliant young people in my life, and I think now have the confidence and my own humility now where I think that's totally fine. I would say I was just caution: I think there are a lot of companies where there are bright, hungry CEOs that are young, who are really hungry and obviously very accomplished and bright, but they might not have the experience. And I think there are times where some people overstate their drive or their passion for actual experience and accomplishments, and that is something I'd be wary of. But totally fine if someone's younger than you. We can all learn something from someone.

Yeah, so the question was how was my experience at Goldman and how that's changed, sure, and then of course just getting your perspective on juniors today, nothing of course like a cynical tone or anything of the sort. Yeah, so it's funny because this is actually a big topic at our company right now as we're recruiting and thinking about expanding the team. When I was in banking, it was a five days a week, if not seven days a week job, right? You're in the office every day. You were there by eight to nine a.m. every day, and you left, it varies. I always told people on an average of 11 or 12 p.m. with a standard deviation of three hours. And so in that part, I'd say probably has changed a little, and I think that's for the better, right? Because I've also had people tell me before too that investment banking is a night job, you just have to be there during the day too. And I think prioritizing mental health, prioritizing work-life balance, prioritizing just treating your juniors right and valuing time is all important. But I do think those days where you were sitting in the pit with all your fellow analysts and associates, you're really learning, not to be cliché, but through that osmosis, right? You're absorbing things like a sponge, and you hear stuff that you've never heard before too. It's like the best way to learn a foreign language is to go to that country and just live there for two months, six months, a year, and you will absorb way more than if you are just learning from an online course or even learning through a classroom. And I believe that's 100% the case early on in your career too. I do know that the pandemic stay-at-home orders affected that a bit. I do know there's some companies where it's still relatively remote. And for us, I think that is a big consideration. I'm not saying it's not possible. There are definitely mature candidates, and we've had analysts within our company too where we were completely remote and they did a fantastic job, still learned a ton, and I thought still had a good experience. But it's a big consideration for us to foresee that someone has been remote the whole time, because we've interviewed candidates where they said they've met their team or their manager twice in person, right? And I'd have to imagine, no I don't have any data or facts around this, but I'd have to imagine doing investment banking remote is a different experience than the in-person experience, and probably not the full experience either, for better or worse.

Exactly. Not even just from the educational, professional aspect, it's the, I've told you this before too, the other analysts at Goldman, my class, right? They're coming to my wedding. You've met a bunch of them. These are people that are lifelong friends. And yeah, you can definitely still have developed that rapport and be friends over a screen, but I think the inside jokes of like, you know, that you used to make when the seniors left, or really understanding like this was a person that really helped you when you were there late night, or even as simple as this was the analyst or the associate that you would just go on walks to grab coffee or lunch with. Exactly as you said, it's that whole experience, both personally and professionally.

Yeah, now I'm going to be biased because I did commercial, or I did real estate investment banking. I would say in investment banking, you get two types of professional experience. You get first just the hard skills, right? You learn how to model, you learn how to underwrite, you learn how to build complex both Excel models but also mental models of how to think about problems, how to think about financials. And you do a lot of this analysis and underwriting, that's one component of it, which are invaluable skills, right? The second part I'd say is you learn a lot on just general professionalism, right? Like if you were to walk around New York, you could spot a banker from a mile away, especially if this banker was ever in like a Cleveland airport doing a road show, he or she would stick out like a sore thumb, right? And this level of professionalism, like being maniacal on if there are periods at the end of your bullet points in a presentation, that the cerulean blue that you used for the header is consistent with page 74, right? We laugh about it, and at the time I remember being really frustrated by it, but this is the level of work product and level of quality of work that you're used to. I know you and I talk about all the time, when sometimes we work with some candidates or some counterparties and they send us just some numbers scrapped together in an Excel book and it's not polished, it's not right, or it's not fact-checked, you kind of scratch your head, right? You're like, 'How did they send this externally?' It's because we're used to a level of work product that is professional and polished. And I think if you don't get that part early in your career, it's really hard to build that habit later on in your career. So I'm not saying this can't be accomplished at CBRE or JLL. I think at the end of the day, it doesn't matter as much between banking and brokerage in that sense, as long as you go to a reputable firm or on a team that has these high standards for you and where you're going to learn a lot. I think both are fantastic learning opportunities. I do think in banking, you're going to learn more on the corporate side, you're going to probably be a little bit more financial driven. On the brokerage side, you're probably going to see a bit more, especially on the deal and the asset level, because at the end of the day, banking you're more of an advisor than an actual broker. And if you are brokering, it's more about companies than the actual assets, versus on the brokerage side. But again, both fantastic experiences. It just really depends on what you're looking for. And I would say group-specific more than anything, because as you mentioned before, right, that's the family that you're going to find and you're going to learn from. And so I'm sure there are groups within banks that are great groups and within banks that are not, and vice versa for brokerage shops.

You know, that's a great point. I haven't put too much thought into that before, and I think what you mentioned about the pessimist, the optimist side of buy-side, sell-side is a very interesting but also succinct summary of it. My general thought odds are I'm mostly buy-side trained at this point now. And I think it just depends on what your goals are and what your fun is, right? If you've raised a $20 billion real estate fund, are you really going to be that selective in the real estate opportunities that you have, versus if you are part of a $20 million family office? And it depends on your role within that institution. Are you on the buy-side for acquisitions and what really matters is that you don't make any mistakes, or what matters more is that you just grow quickly? Or is it a growth mode or is it a holding vehicle? And what does your capital want you to do? Or are you on the sell-side of it, on the disposition side of the principal and investing side? And I had a conversation with someone earlier today too on what we think would make one of the best real estate teams, and we said a combination of just attorneys and leasing folks, because attorneys are always trying to find reasons not to do deals, right? On all the risks that are present and why you shouldn't do things. Not all attorneys, right, but in general their job is to protect and think about risks. And the leasing folks that are always trying to expand, they're looking at new markets, they're the visionaries that see this empty lot and now imagine a big shopping center, right? And that would be a good balance. And so I think to your point, not all of us have the luxury to do this, but if you could do a little bit of both and see both sides of it, I think that's super valuable, as with anything, right?

And from the interviewer's sake of discussion, I'm curious from your perspective, has that changed at all? I don't want to do generational labels on things like Gen Z versus Millennial versus Boomer or whatever, but the mindset of how long you stay at a job or what's considered starting to look like you're a mercenary if you move around too much, has that mindset changed at all in your opinion or what you've seen? You could say we could almost go with that general stereotype and cliché that of course some maybe like Gen Z has been moving around too much, they don't want to work hard. I'm not going to say anything like that. What I'm really getting at is that I see both ways. I see individuals that have tried out banking, know that they don't want it, and want to move to the buy-side, want to go maybe corporate, startup. I see other individuals that are like, 'I literally did everything I could to get to where I am right now. Why would I not stay and give it a fair shot?' And to them, I'm like, 'Listen, honestly, this makes total sense. We can still train you up. And at the end of the day, if you're looking to go analyst to associate to VP and you're like, I want to give them my all, well then let's double down. You're telling me that you want to play tennis for the rest of your life, let's do private lessons, let's get you going, let's get you really good.' So actually both ways, really, to tell you.

Yeah, and I've been thinking about this a bit too, and I think we're arriving at a similar conclusion too. As long as you're deliberate or thoughtful about it, right? Because if you join consulting or investment banking and you realize month three that this isn't for you and not what you want to do anymore, don't stay two years just because you think it will look bad, right? Leave, do something. But don't leave to join another bank if you knew that banking is not for you, or don't join another consulting firm if consulting's not for you. I think as long as you show that you're thoughtful and deliberate about it, we definitely view that as a positive.

Yeah, it was. I still remember it was February of 2015, and we started banking kind of summer of 2014, so six months in the job. I think that's a great question, Mr. Peng. And for me, I'm not as active in it as before, but I do think that it has, as you said or as we started this conversation, shifted earlier. Candidates, I know many are interviewing for their second jobs before they've started their first. I still remember we were taken by surprise when the recruiting season started in February because we thought that we'd have much more time, at least till spring, before it started. I think that's the big thing. And I think what we talked about too, that a lot of candidates are coming from a remote work perspective, but I also do think there's just generally more, and you can correct me if you feel free to disagree, there's generally a lot more mobility and opportunities that are available to candidates. Because when I was in banking, it was largely headhunter driven. You had a lot of headhunters that would just kind of feed you opportunities. And of course, you can seek them out yourself, and LinkedIn was starting to bloom then, and you could reach out to people and learn more. But there was no Office Hours. There weren't a lot of these services that are available today that teach young people about these industries and about what is available out there and the opportunities. And so I think hopefully that it's not too overwhelming and that overall a positive for them.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's seven years right now, exactly. That's phenomenal, which is quite a bit in Millennial speak.

Yeah, you know, that's a broader question, but yeah. So I'm trying to think how to tackle that. I think the general market right now, we've seen a ton of volatility, especially in the past couple months. We've seen the 10-year basically go over 100 basis points since August, after coming down a bit since June, after rising a ton since the beginning of the year, right? The market has softened a bit from the craziness of the pandemic where it dropped a ton, and it's just a lot of volatility and a good amount of uncertainty right now. And I truly think that these are moments where the most interesting opportunities will come up, right? And I think it's also times like this where you set yourself apart as an investor, whether in your professional life or personal life in your own PA or investments you do on your own. When things are good, all boats rise with a tide, right? That was the era of meme stocks or crypto coins where you could throw money at anything and seem like a genius. But it's times like this where you're doing heavy underwriting, you're understanding an industry, you're talking to people and really understanding the business model, that's where all this stuff really matters. What I think is interesting is just probably yet to come. I think we're still seeing how a lot of this plays out, but I'm keeping a watchful eye, everything from real estate to equities to different crypto tokens. And I think that this will play out really interesting, if not to say there's going to be a big recession or anything, but if something like that does happen, to see where the idiosyncratic opportunities are.

Yeah, it's, I read this quote the other day that I think really jives with our ethos. So I guess I'll first answer your question in the sense that we're still kind of doing the same that we've always done, right? And the reason is, and the quote brought out that, hey, if there are two axes that you think about things, and it goes from simple to complex and interesting or what I call like sexy and interesting to not sexy and not interesting. If you want to be on the complex and not sexy side, yeah. So if it's too simple, everyone's doing it, right? Buying stocks, it's as easy as calling a broker or pushing a few buttons on your phone. If you really want to be a great stock picker or good equities investor, it's going to be a ton of work because everyone has the access now or the same information to Google, to all this stuff. It's going to be really difficult. If you want to do what's considered fun and sexy, starting a new social media or space tech, right? You're going to find a lot of competition there too, bright minds that are willing to work hard because they want to talk about it or they're just passionate about it. Which nothing wrong with any of this, right? But the kind of sector that we focus in, or the quadrant, is, hey, this is complex. Buying real estate is much more complex than buying shares of a company. There's a lot of diligence that goes involved: transactional, title, property, deal regulations, etc. Also, what we buy in the net lease space, we started off buying Taco Bells, gas stations, auto repair shops, vet clinics, right? These are not things that people go to their next dinner party and brag about that they just completed, right? This type of stuff doesn't make the headlines of the Wall Street Journal. But this is the type of stuff that I think flies under the radar, that it's not as highly institutionalized, and it's where we've been able to make a profound risk-adjusted return to our portfolio. In the sense that I was completely new to this industry seven years ago, and now, not to boast too much, but probably one of the most active and knowledgeable people within this space, right? And it's because you carve out a specific niche that not a lot of people were running into. And I think that's always a good thesis to target. And so when I think about what we want to continue focusing on, I want to continue focusing on this stuff.

Yeah, signing up for Office Hours, absolutely. But it's funny, I think you hit on all the things that I was going to say. Network, raise your hand, right? A lot of the time, people are waiting for stuff to happen. You always give great advice to folks that I always hear: you've got to be proactive, you gotta raise your hand about it, right? I actually think one of the most underrated pieces of advice for this that I don't hear enough is, first, make sure you crush your current job, right? I think a lot of people, they're like, 'I'm in a back office to mid office role, I want to go to the front office. I don't care about this. I'm going to spend all my time trying to talk to the front office people and push, push, push, and see if I can get a front office drop.' Well, guess what? The first thing they're probably going to do is ask your manager how your performance is, right? Or see, assess, like, is this person excelling at his or her current job? I think the most important thing is, if you excel at your current job, you will have opportunities open up for you. They will wonder, if they are a company that values you and values human capital, they will want to retain you. They will recognize that you are in a seat that you can be in a better seat where you can contribute more, add more value, and grow more professionally. So I would say everything you said, but first focus on just crushing what you're currently doing. And then, getting as much exposure as you can, making sure it's known that you want to be in these front office and mid office positions, and being patient with it. It might not come tomorrow, but if you continue doing what you do, sooner or later it definitely will come.

I think it's funny because our CEO always says, 'I joined the financial crisis, he lost 70 pounds, he was so stressed.' It's really, really important. You only have one body in your life. And what was saying that young people spend all their life, you spend the first half of your life accumulating wealth to the detriment of your health, and then you spend the second half of your life burning your wealth to preserve your health, right? Don't do that. You want to be healthy. I'm still going to the gym as much as I can, at least a few times a week. I know you all are as well. Try to eat well, sleep well, and have positive relationships in your mind, have that balance. I think spiritual and mental health is something that's not talked about enough in our industry. But I think maybe there's another opportunity for us, Office Hours, is there? It's therapy hours, coaching for sure, as in how to manage relationships, how to have conversations within the team dynamic. But similar, yeah. But I think that's all really important. I think consistency is key. To riff off this fitness analogy, I always thought that investing is like getting in shape. As long as most people, when you learn the basics, as long as you know what to do, most people know how to be a good investor. Most people know how to get into shape, right? How to get into shape: you eat clean and you exercise, right? And what's the hard part is actually getting to that point and having the discipline to consistently go to the gym even when it's early, to consistently eat clean and not have that junk food or that guilty pleasure too often, right? And it's the same how I feel with investing. Most people, they know what a good investment is, what a bad investment is, after you learn the basics of how do I underwrite and how do I do this training and what should I be doing, right? But it's when you have a large fund and you have the pressure to deploy the capital because there's a return expectation, or you haven't done something in a while, or a broker or whoever's selling this is a friend of yours and they're pressuring you to do it. Most of the people I know that have done bad investments, they knew they were bad investments going into it. It's like you know that you're eating junk food. It's not like you accidentally ate food and you're like, 'I don't know why I'm not in shape.' And so it's just about discipline and it's about consistency. And so I know life gets tough, I know work gets tough, I know there are never enough hours in a day. Well, guess what? Life's only going to get more tough. You're only going to get more busy. If you don't make time for wellness and fitness and health now, I don't think you're going to struggle. So it's just having consistency and carving out time for it and being disciplined.

It's a good question. I think you figure out what hobbies are interesting to you and what you like to do in extracurriculars. Tennis for me, and then of course spending time with friends and family. There were definitely times that I would like literally just plank after calls because I was just so gassed. And so it's basically like probably not great because it was like burnout until you just keep running until you just burn out, which is not great, right? I mean, now trying to figure out, of course, and you're a big proponent of this, basically more and more businesses down on the phone. However, at the same time, enabling others to take some calls for you, some of the preliminary stuff, and then looping in for the higher-level calls, calls that frankly will lead to more, whether it be accomplishing your goal, right? Whether it be like, listen, you guys have an intro call, I'll come in later. Just like frankly a manager or a boss or a CEO would. That's the idea as we look to scale this organization, because it's true everyone will effectively ask for your time. So how do you really go about, or in theory, right, especially if you're pretty decently good at what you do within your space, how do you protect and say no?

Yeah, saying no is a skill I had to learn. I think people with our personality, for a long time it was yes, do everything, do both, yes, yes, and yes. And I think saying no is actually I've learned more and more powerful. So I 100% agree with everything you just said. And the only thing I'd probably add to that is one thing I've learned too is that not everything has to be urgent, right? Like usually someone's like, 'Hey, can we get on a call today?' Right? Well, you usually start eating at his plan, it's like, 'Oh well, I blocked out this time to exercise, I blocked up this time to spend with friends or family, and I guess I could push that off a bit and take this call, it's really important, right?' But at the end of the day, most things are not that urgent anymore. Yeah, it's totally okay to schedule it tomorrow. When you carve out that time, make sure you do leave it carved out.

Yeah, I would say to just be very, very thoughtful. I think people give the common advice of, 'Oh, talk to as many people as you can and network.' And yeah, that's great advice too. But I think just be really thoughtful and be okay with not always having a linear path. And I think that's something that I'm still learning today, right? I know a lot of folks, they're always worried, or not always, but they're very worried about what's my next role, what's my next job, what's my next promotion. They see their peers and their peers just got promoted, right? Or their peer is at another shop, another fund, or in the brokerage side, or doing something else, and they just had a banner year and they doubled or whatever more than they did, right? And to not get too caught up in the short term and to focus long term. Are you still one, just enjoying life, and two, learning and growing your skills as not only an investor but just as a person? Things are long term, right? Because it might be a promotion on face value, but if that fund disappears next year, or they might have made a lot of money this year, but if next year they burn out or wash out, it's not good either, right? So if you know that you want to get somewhere but you have to take a step down, or it's a lateral step, or it's going to not be that linear trajectory that you were envisioning, be okay with that. That's generally just what I would like to tell me and just what I tell other folks too: think about your career in a long-term perspective.

No, this is really fun. I'm glad to have joined you on this, and thanks again for having me.