Transitioning from FMCG, to Lecturing, to Tech CEO

You created Africa's first humanoid robot?

Humanoid robots, yes we did. And it's called... I think it's the first African robot to sit on a panel, at the ITU UN program, amidst other humans.

Robots can be either in digital form or in hardware form, but the one that looks like a human, modeled after a human, is a humanoid robot. What exactly drives you to do what you do?

We think about Africa, and it's not because of sentiment. AI is an enabler; it's going to be a bedrock for most technologies going forward.

What fuels this audacity?

It's because I just don't see who can do it better than us.

With everything you've accomplished so far, what's something that you still struggle with as a business?

It's the fact that we...

So guys, welcome to this episode of Venture Valley. Today I'm actually talking to someone who I feel embodies a person who is actually choosing to do hard things. He's actually someone that I will call the Elon Musk of Nigeria, because I mean the things he's trying to build within the context and the limitations of our clime is actually worthy of a full podcast episode and even an after-session where I'll be taking a tour of the phenomenal work he's doing. He's leading technology transformation in AI, robotics, VR, you know, all forms of leading and innovative technology platforms that are coming out right now. And he's not just doing it from a software perspective, which a lot of technology people do; he's actually doing it also with the hardware perspective. I mean, leading drones and drones that can fly for long hours in the air, used for securities and all forms, and I found out to be really exceptional. He's my dear friend, and when I spend time around the way his mind works, I'm like, 'This guy, are you okay? What are you doing in this country?' But then again, I'm able to have him on this episode so I can ask him, while you also listen and learn from his experience, you know, and learn his reasons why, and maybe get inspired also to do likewise. So I have my dear friend and brother, Ronald A., the one and only. Welcome. Thank you so much, Elijah. It's good to meet you, and I'm glad we're able to do this finally.

Yeah, I mean, we tried to... it's been a long time coming. Wanted to do it. You've been a very busy person.

You too, you too, right. I mean, I'm glad we're able to do this right. I'm also glad. But I mean, I think I'll just jump right into it. I know you have a very busy day ahead, but what exactly drives you to do what you do, and what exactly is that thing that you do currently that our viewers can get to know you for?

Alright, so that's like two questions. On the one hand, what drives me to do what I do, and what is inspiring that the viewers would like to know now, what I'm working on right now. Okay, so let me start with what we are working on. Alright, we are working on a couple of disruptive solutions. One of the main ones we are working on is the long endurance, 24-hour long endurance UAV that is solar and air-powered with air infusion. It has about over 100 km of range, it's got an absolute ceiling of about 8 km. What that means is that vertically, it's able to travel about 8 km optimally, and then it's got other things like air infusion as well. It's a glider. The essence of this product, this drone, is to do ISR and then also to do pseudo-satellites. So you can imagine if you're trying to have the drone placed maybe 5 km away from here and then it's just there giving a feed to the ground equipment that you want to do, you know, more or less like a satellite communication system, but it's just there, you're not seeing it, and it's giving feed. Or it can also go longer. If you see what the situation of the security ecosystem in Nigeria is all about, if you want to solve it, one of the key sensitive variables that the product or the solution that you are deploying should have is endurance. It must be able to go longer range, long endurance, to be able to travel as far as possible. You want to do border patrol, you want to do reconnaissance, you want to do ISR missions, you want to do surveillance. Any of those need a product that can go for a longer time. So that's the reason why we came up with that. It wasn't just wanting to be the first to do it in Africa; it's because there is a key problem we want to solve. I'll be looking around it. So say, give or think, maybe the aircraft is able to stay with its conventional battery for about maybe 16 hours, or we achieve maybe 4 hours. The remaining is able to use solar cells, space-grade solar cells, and then if we are able to ensure that the aerodynamic properties are well-informed during the design phase, and then we are able to get the control system right, then when stability and control is not a problem, the flight dynamics everything is optimal, then by the time we are trying to do AI infusion to have atmospheric data harvested and see how it can benefit the flight, the AI can then look at, okay, the wind is coming from this place. It's a conventional fixed-wing glider with the pressure differential cutting across the wings, with the other atmospheric conditions we have, the humidity, so many other variables, parameters. We'll leverage that and see how we can use that to improve the flight performance, either to fly into the headwind or maybe to avoid some certain things. So the aircraft might even be able to shut down its propulsion system for a while whilst using the data that has been gathered that has been harvested to increase its flight performance. So with the AI infusion, maybe we can do another extra hour. We're still in the simulation stage. We've conducted our... we have ended the conceptual design stage. We are at the preliminary design stage and trying to head towards the detail. We had our expert review session, calling different experts across the globe, from the US down to anywhere you can get them. So we had more than 50 experts on board to review that. So the feedback we got, we're now optimizing on that, because the project is actually very huge, a big one.

Let's track back a little. What has your journey been like as a person? Like, can you introduce yourself as Ronald to us? Because now you just said something very intelligent, and I'm sure the audience will be wondering like, who is this guy and what is he talking about? So maybe you could reintroduce yourself to us.

Alright, thank you. So, my name is Ronald A., and in one word, I would say I'm a C-level optimization strategist. That's like one word I can use to describe myself. You can see me as a tech executive or a tech leader, but because I've also played a role actively in some space, for example, I've been the Program Director of Programs and Producer on the Next Titan reality TV show, which I'm still on, yes. And some people see me from that media angle, like, okay, you know what, it's promoting entrepreneurship. And while I have my executive producer as media, my big brother. My first degree is in Aerospace Engineering from National Aerospace University in Ukraine. I was able to graduate with a 4.5 out of 5 at the time. Then I advanced, doing a Master's in Engineering Management, and then started on a PhD in Russia in AI, Robotics, and UAV. Yes, but I came back to Nigeria. I'm also picking up a course in Aarhus as well. So I'm a student in Aarhus currently, for about six months to one year, in the same field: AI and Robotics. So, what interests me... back then when I finished school, I started working in Ukraine. Funny enough, the place that I was working, I was working with a sugar company as the Assistant General Manager at AT LLC. I was the Nigerian student president back then, so I heard about this company coming to Nigeria, that they wanted to set up, but they weren't so sure how to go about strategy. So I reached out to them and I spoke to them. I went, I met the chairman. I called a lady, a friend of mine then, I'm like, 'Hey, let's go to Kiev.' I had done research. So I went in there. Coincidentally, she was acting like my secretary. It was all packaging at that time, you know, we just packaged ourselves, got a very nice brand new suit. I went in there and then the board was seated, and I met the chairman. I'm like, 'My name is Ronald, and I heard you guys are going to Nigeria, but I know you guys are currently exporting to Moldova, Poland, Kazakhstan, and Hungary, but some mistakes you've done in the past, because I saw that you were listed publicly to be so and so, but you did a mistake in terms of investment, and then blah blah blah.' Then I went to a board, a screen, even if I didn't know how to operate it, I used my mind and I showed them one or two things. So I was done with that. But then, if you want to come back to Nigeria, you might be doing the same mistake. You need somebody that knows the market, that knows strategy, and can get work done. Then the chairman looked at me and he said, 'What did you say your name was again?' He said it in Russian. 'You speak Russian?' Yeah, I speak Russian very well. So he said, 'What is your name again?' Then I said, 'My name is Ronald.' And then he said, 'And can you be my General Manager in Nigeria?' That's what I got. But in my mind, what organization was this? It was AT LLC. But I'll tell you the family name, the local name now in Nigeria, it's a household name now. I was a pioneer director that brought the sugar to Nigeria, and that was like my first big gig. I would say that was what closed me. Yeah, sugar business. It's Dangote Sugar. How do you call me? With sugar, yes.

So from that story, the chairman told me, 'Can I be the General Manager in Nigeria?' I was excited, but you know the way, as a Nigerian guy, I say if I go laugh or jump for here, this man go feel, they go cut my salary. So I see in my mind what I wanted to do is to jump up and go crazy like, 'Oh boy!' But for my... but on the other side, what you're seeing physically is, 'Well, not so easy. I've got my own consulting firm, and then we still have to talk about this.' For my, this man go talk say hold on. Then I say I go change my mind, I change my talk. So yeah, so that was it. And then he said, 'Okay, but I need to see your capacity right here now.' You can talk your way into getting positions, into getting power, but you might not be able to sustain it if you do not have the content. That's true. The right ideas, the right experience. I didn't have those experiences much, and I did a feasibility study. So they made me start working there to train the team that is going to Nigeria, that will be going to Nigeria. And while I was doing that, I was also learning, and I realized I didn't know anything, because I did my first feasibility study, I submitted a report, and I remember the CEO said, 'Ronald, was this... what's this, really?' And I'm like, 'I'm sorry.' And then I had to call and find a mentor. One thing about me is that I'm a quick learner. Just tell me about it, I'm able to unlearn, relearn, and learn. I spend my nights doing research. Tell me about some models, I will develop bespoke mathematical models that don't exist, just when you tell me the problem. I think that's my strength. So I'll be able to do whatever it is, I'll crack it. It might be any problem at all. So I'm able to use numbers to inform decisions. So we got working, and then we're supposed to go to Nigeria. So we're going to Nigeria. The first... what year was this? This was 2012, I think. 2012, yeah. So I started talking to them. We did a feasibility study with another external partner. It gave us the document. We used the document to implement, and then we realized that the feasibility study was wrong. The conventional kind of sugar cubes that European people take are smaller cubes, but the one the Nigerians take is a bigger cube. So we thought we should come, let Nigerians take the smaller cubes because it's better, healthier, don't take so much sugar, right? But when we went into the market, they rejected it. They said it's easier for us to take one cube that is bigger than having smaller two cubes. But it was a big consulting firm that we gave it to that told us this is what we'll sell, and then we implemented based on that. So I learned my first lesson. We had already invested in molds from Turkey, we put everything right there. Market rejected it. So one of the studies that I got in the pyramid of consumption or deployment of product to the market back in the '70s, '60s, the top executives or the top leaders at the top of the pyramid, they influence what the consumer takes. But right nowadays, from the '80s, the market decides what should be produced. So I came back to Nigeria, I went to Idumota market, and I was given a proud jeep as a young guy when I went there. Went to a market, I was like, 'Hello, good afternoon, my name is Ronald,' with my suit, you know, I like to wear suits. So with my suit, and I went in there and I'm like, 'My name is Ronald,' and nobody answered me in the market. So I stayed back for a while, and I started learning. And I learned. I watch African Magic. I told you I can learn things very fast. I learned how to speak the core deep Yoruba of Idumota in a week. I was able to learn and pick up words. I speak a couple of languages. I'm good with... how many languages do you speak? I speak French a little bit. My partner, my wife, taught me a bit of Spanish. I speak Russian very well. I speak Ukrainian a little bit. Of course, English very well. Then local languages, I pick up reasonably well. I can pick it up, speak, and I'm picking up now. So I learned that, and then I went to the market. I told one particular guy, I said, 'Please help me so correct and carry like five.' So when I went to the market the next week, I was in the market for one week. I just frustrated. I said, 'If you understand Yoruba very well, I might not be speaking it so perfect, but at least to a level that's good.' And the person said, 'Call me.' I said, 'I was the one that came the last time.' They said, 'We didn't remember.' I said, 'I came with one police guy, you know...' I sell sugar. Yeah, I'm like, 'Oh, it's easy to close a deal like that. All I need to do is to identify cultural identity and understand what people want.' So it was from the market locally that I understood that our competition, that I might not be able to mention name, they have a... there is a conventional design that we had is like a bit... it wasn't good to lift on the head. People in the market were lifting the sugar on their head. They had it in the smaller pack of six as well, so that the retailers can easily pick theirs. We didn't have ours. We packed it. So I learned by visiting the market practically. That informed a lot of changes in our design. We had to change the designs, the molds, to change. But my chairman told me something. He said, 'Ronald, I still believe in you. You're a good leader.' That's what he keeps saying. I don't know what it is, but I think he believes more in leadership than any other thing, and it feels I'm doing a good job at leading. I don't know what it is.

So how long were you there? How long were you in the sugar company?

Well, I was practically around from the parent company down to the Nigerian company, maybe about 2 years plus. Okay, and I realized I was already getting deeper into FMCG, and that will kill my dream of being a techie. I mean, since I did Aerospace, so how did you... what made you even go into FMCG at all? It was just curiosity. It wasn't... it was an opportunity that I... I'm too ambitious. Maybe I'm less ambitious now, but I was crazy ambitious. I saw an opportunity, and I think sometimes we all make our mistakes. If I am to grow naturally by the scope of how work is growing, I'll probably be a mid-level in a conventional sector, mid-level manager, not in the... I mean, tech engineering is different. It's a function of how many projects you've done over time, successful projects, so you can be a CTO even within 3 years. It's different. But in the conventional growth pattern, maybe in an FMCG for a multinational, I might just be going to like a senior manager. I'll be like a senior manager. I might not be an executive. But I was able to grow faster. Somebody gave me an opportunity that believed in me. They would offer me... any of my colleagues then were not taking probably... they would take a salary they weren't taking, 20% of what I was earning. So you would want to jump on it. So sometimes it wasn't about, 'Oh my God, I'm a General Manager when I'm less than 30 for a multinational sector, oh my God, and then with a house in Park View in Abuja, oh my God.' Of course, you would jump on it. So after, what made you leave? I left because I realized I was going deeper into a sector that's not where my... I had already curiosity years. It was my first proper, proper job. I've been doing other consulting jobs prior to the time, but it was a proper, it was my first structured job opportunity. And I needed a platform to prove to the world that I'm smart, and that was the platform for you. It was a platform for me.

So how did you go from there to tech? How did you make the transition?

When I resigned, I quit. I started running my personal consulting firm, consulting for top multinationals from Dangote. I was able to get good connections to top leaders. I was closing deals with the main big boys in the FMCG market, and from there I was able to leverage them to take one or two. So I went into process reengineering, tech optimization, digitization of frameworks, and all of that. So it wasn't far from... I was doing that, and I was doing that so much more later on, because I want to rule Nigeria someday, and I hope when I become the president, you know, this will be played. So every step or every opportunity that I get into, they are strategic. I am very strategic to what I take. If I'm dating a woman, it's strategic. Everything I do, I don't do it just... it's very strategic. So I don't do it by chance. I just jump on it because I've seen that it's probably in line with my purpose and where I'm going. So it's very strategic. So when I left there, I realized that I need to work for the government for a while. So I started looking at what sector would I want to work for of the government. Perhaps if I work in the local government, my brain will die. If I work in some other place... so I picked up a lecturing role. It was the first Department of Aeronautics and Astronautics. So I lectured for 8 years, 7 years. Where? Kwara State University, at the Department of Aeronautics and Astronautics. I was a research fellow there, a junior research fellow, then I was the undergraduate research coordinator for a while, then I was lecturing there. So from that, I immediately completed 7 years because I wanted to... when he gets to that time, you know what I'm going for, presidency, and people go like, 'Hey, I don't think he's got any civil service experience.' I have it. Or private sector experience, I've gotten it. I have a cross-functional exposure when it comes to work background. So I did that, and I enjoyed it because of the people that I met, especially the students. So I was exposed to a couple of projects. It was during that time, but I was still running my consulting, that I founded my startup, Autodrone. And when I founded the startup, we built it. We opened up to like four different labs in Nigeria. We manufactured the first biggest quadcopter for President Buhari. It was about 8 or 9 kg payload capacity, and it was used during his election back then, flying his banner everywhere. That brought us out again. So we started sourcing. We would give anybody that needed a drone. So we have drone spare parts, drone spare parts store business, and we repair, we also manufacture. So we were like a one-stop facility for drone solutions back then. We started, we incorporated the company in 2017, but we started around 2016. So this kept going, and then it was quite interesting, but we failed. Yeah, we failed later. We got some couple of funding to expand the business prior to COVID. It got shut down. And then we had to let it go. So yeah, and afterwards I had a couple of roles. I worked as the CEO of Traia Build with Edmund. Edmund founded it. Edmund is a current Minister for Energy, Deputy Minister for Energy, State Minister of State for Energy in Sierra Leone. So when Edmund got an appointment by the UNICEF to lead Innovation at UNICEF, I had to step in as the CEO. We headquartered in Mauritius, but we were in Senegal, Gambia, Sierra Leone, Nigeria. So we were doing that. And I had other couple of roles. Worked as Chief Operations Officer with Vestor in Dallas, Texas. A couple of roles that I've done. And now, I got appointed by Unicon Group as the CEO for the two subsidiaries, which are Bab Sky Technologies Limited and Andi Technologies Limited. Bab Sky Technologies Limited is the developer of the first humanoid robot in Africa.

Humanoid robots?

Yes, we did. And it's seated on various panels. I think it's the first African robot to sit on a panel, at the ITU UN program, amidst other humans. It's been at Geneva in Switzerland. It's done a couple of things. It speaks a couple of languages, about six or seven languages. And currently we are still integrating more languages. So the intelligence of that robot, we extracted it and we duplicated it into different products in the form of API and in the form of consumer products as well. While Bab Sky is basically drone technologies. And the interesting thing about Unicon right now is that Unicon just put up a partnership together with DICON, the Defence Industry Corporation of Nigeria, and then we now have representation to also produce AI products, robots, and drones. So we have a company incorporated with DICON.

Take us a bit deeper around your journey and the innovative products that you're currently producing in Bab Sky, because I think I find that you are quite in what they call emerging technologies. You're not really just in technology like, 'Oh, we are doing code, we are doing startup,' but it's more like emerging technologies and technologies that are actually hardware-based. Like the drone you're speaking about, it requires somebody fixing it. Like the humanoid robot, it requires a physical build. How is it that you have been able to navigate the fact that you are in a market like Nigeria doing this? Because I mean, you could as well choose to do it. You have global access, you have global exposure. You could as well choose to do it from London or from Europe or from the US. Why Nigeria? And how has it been like for you in terms of navigating the areas of supply chain issues, the areas of materials, power, experts? What exactly is the method behind this madness, and what exactly has been the wisdom that you've been able to apply?

I think first, challenges. What are we doing it here in Nigeria and not outside Nigeria? And what am I even here? I remember one of the first questions you asked was, 'What am I even doing in Nigeria?' To be honest, and I don't mean to sound proud in any way, I'm in demand. Every single day outside this country, I get maybe one or two people wanting to collaborate or to be outside Nigeria. But one key thing that has brought us together, the chairman of the Unicon Group is Dr. Tersoo. And one thing that I aligned together with his vision is the fact that we are Afrocentric in nature. We think about Africa, and it's not because of sentiment. I think there's something special. I mean, the data is out there. So first, I'm passionate about it. I relocated to Abuja last year. I've been in Lagos or outside Africa, I mean outside Nigeria, but coming into Abuja, it's strategic for me. It's intentional. That's one. Two, in terms of the business itself, it's been crazy. Any business that is heavily reliant on imports, or if you're doing manufacturing, there is a high probability that you're going to be heavily reliant on materials that are coming from outside Nigeria. You can't get everything from here. And if you're doing that, it means you're reliant on FX, and then if you have instability of the dollar to your business, it definitely... so it's crazy. It's a no-brainer. So what makes you do it? We already started this. We're into a product line or a business that has to go through R&D, and your R&D stage might be this. You need to fund it before you get a prototype. I agree, you cannot commercialize. I agree. So if we decided to have already set up this, and then we had already gone through R&D phase and prototyping, and all we need to do is to scale, to push our products out there, and then now we want to quit, it's not good for the business. You are mostly at loss. That's one. Two, because we also see the future. There are many more emerging technologies that we are not even practicing now. Say, for example, Li-Fi, information can be transferred through light. We haven't even started to commercialize that. We encode it, and then the next thing is it's all gone. And so many other ones, nano structures and the likes, data, AI. And then we are far behind. And if we see a unique opportunity in this place, as much as everybody is talking about the UAV, you realize the cumulative annual growth rate of even robotics is much more bigger than UAV itself. So for us, the business has been challenging. Raw material sourcing has been crazy. And what keeps us going is the vision, and because we also see what is there, what is out there that we will eventually close out.

But what exactly is going through your mind? Is it that you rather... because I mean, I would have thought that you would just go get China to manufacture the drones and then you bring it here.

Well, that's not a bad idea. But again, one of the few things around would be that we have CKD, we have SKD. When you have a semi-knockdown facility or complete knockdown facility, inventions themselves or hardware themselves for machines, they are not completely, in most cases, done fully by one person. You've got partners. You leverage on your own strength. Let's talk about aircraft. Boeing, Airbus. The engines are manufactured by Pratt & Whitney, Rolls-Royce. Mercedes-Benz also do engines for Diamond, but they don't do aircraft. They are specialized in some particular space. For example, our drones, we build the frames, the controls, the circuit boards, and all of those things. But when it gets to like the propeller, I don't need to start doing the propeller again. The motors, you can just... you understand, we buy them. We get the motor. So we have, based on the specification that we want that we've designed, and then we have that assembled. But much more later in the future, I hope Nigeria doesn't take us to that place. So many people, where you go and set up your factory, and if you even set up a factory, if you're trying to import, importation is also... for into Nigeria, when it comes to UAV, you need to get your EUC, End User Certificate, you need to get some licenses and all of those things. So it's also very crazy.

Do you think Nigeria has what it takes to really, should I say, host such a vision? And how has it been doing so well over time for you?

I'll be honest. Do I think Nigeria has the vision, the ability to host that vision? Capacity, I think we do. And I'm not trying to motivate us, but I think we do. I think it's a function of time. It's a function of... whatever we've been able to achieve, there is no external collaborations really with any country. So you can imagine where we are. And it's not like we're running from collaborations. Mostly, all of our products are for defense purposes. By the time you avail so many windows for collaboration, the security becomes more compromising. So you do not want to do that as much. Of course, we enjoy collaborations, which we still definitely going to do. However, where Nigeria is going, what we need is infrastructural support. If we have that, we will go a long way. Every invention is heavily reliant on what support infrastructure. So you're talking about energy. Imagine if we just have electricity that is not disturbed, and you would have to buy diesel that would take us long. Very. If you have a very good fast internet, that the 5G the ISPs are giving us, and they call 5G is actually 5G? Bro, have you used a Nigerian 5G network before? I have. Okay, so it looks like 5G knows what is on your mind before you type on Google, because while you're typing, the output is popping up. And you can transfer the robot connections and all of those things. Most of the things, you know, when you're laying it, power. Imagine we have a huge computing capability and you have servers, GPUs built, let's say a site that has about 1,000 GPUs, and it's telling AI guys, 'Anytime you want to train your model, whoever that is going into AI business, will give you so much of this thing to be able to train your model, space and storage to train your model.' And guess what? The federal government is coming to say, 'If you're going into AI business for the next two years, we're going to give you tax holiday, and you can get some support about this.' There's absolutely no support. So policy is killing. So it's a different... where we talk about the statutory compliance, regulatory governance issues, it's huge. Those ones really get me crazy when it gets to that topic, and I hope we don't go there because then I'm going to lose my mind. But when it comes to the... because we... it's crazy. If you can be successful in Nigeria, to be honest, like what Dangote said, when Nigerian entrepreneurs die, that maybe angels or God should just not let them go through hellfire. They automatically give them... to be honest, we go through hell as entrepreneurs. I saw one bill that some people were trying to pass, like if companies, employers don't pay salaries, that maybe they should be sent to prison or to jail. And in my mind, I'm like, 'Really? What have you given to these guys? What support have you given to these guys, rather than taxing them?' That's true. And we have huge platform. Well, let's not get into that. So let me just talk about here.

I mean, I think I get why you say you believe that Nigeria can, because what you're seeing is that the resources are available, but the problem is the quality of people that actually making those decisions for the nation. The experts are available.

Experts are available. Policies are killing. Policies are... even available to a good extent now. There are people like Startup Bill and people are making, but the question is, is it better than before? Are we really looking to fund innovation? Are we really looking to support innovation in a way that is required? Because I know that all over the world, even in the US, you find out that even the innovation that they breed in, they have national research organizations that are ensuring that they remain top line when it comes to scientific progress. So I think it's quite a hope that one, we hope that will happen in Nigeria. Those questions, we shake so many tables.

I mean, let's not shake those tables yet. Let's... I mean, but what exactly are you seeing? Like, what does Bab Sky do in terms of drones, and how is it changing the landscape currently now of security and healthcare? And have you been able to apply it?

Okay, great. So application right now, I would say our solutions are... we've spent most of our very good and reasonable time on prototyping, R&D. For example, the ultra-long endurance, the 24-hour ultra-long endurance UAV is like a six-month project. There's a whole lot involved when it comes to design and implementation, development of a manned system for any product at all. Once it has gone through the first R&D, certify your simulations, experimentations are correct, and you're able to roll out, duplicating that project or that particular prototype is easier. You can make another one in 2 months, you can make another one in 3 months. But getting the first one right because of the testing you need to do. So for us at Bab Sky, we've been engaging in aggressive product development because we've been able to identify the products that they need. We've spoken to a couple of people, almost every, if not all, paramilitary, military. We've had conversations with them. We've had exhibitions with them, demonstrations. They love it, to be honest. They're very welcoming. They are waiting for us to say, 'Okay, Ronald, we see the demonstration, we love it, I think it's addressing the problem. When can we get a final product?' And it takes a lot. Certain things you would not want to do simulation. So when it gets to aircraft that are IOW standard, FAA standard that regulates the manufacturing, say for example under the Nigerian Civil Aviation Authority, who is like the major guidance when it comes to drones, we also have the National Security Advisor. But mainly, Nigerian Civil Aviation Authority had one in charge. We are still developing framework for manufacturing framework. We do not have also framework... I think framework for training is also being developed. We only have framework for operations. So a lot is still... technology itself, we not to run after policy. Policy will run after technology, because sometimes if it is not existing, you don't know what to regulate. So in most cases, it has always been that. So on our own side, because we will probably be, arguably, because I haven't seen the most structured manufacturing drone company in Nigeria as it is. Why is that so? The reason is because right now, most drone companies that are around are basically doing operations. Operations is using drone as a service, deploying it, flying for people, and the rest. No, there are even top players that are doing other bigger jobs, and they are very regulated, like security, for surveillance purpose. The surveillance that... surveys, sorry, not surveillance, for surveys, survey mapping purpose, maybe topographical survey, LiDAR, and photogrammetry, and the likes. They gather data, especially in the oil and gas sector. So there are a lot of players, big players, in that sector. But for manufacturing of it itself, there are not so many people that I know that are into that.

Yes, I mean, what fuels this audacity? It's because I just don't see who can do it better than us. And I also don't see that... because I mean, it's cheap bread, you know, and then it's something that we can do. I don't mean to brag, but I mean that's what it is. I heard that you guys use drones to deliver recently. I've been seeing drones delivering vaccines, they say drones to do Zipline and all the rest. What do you think about that?

It's cool. Zipline has been existing. They are frontliners when it comes to delivery. That's also operations. Zipline is using, I think they use fixed-wing, and then they use the catapult system. So you don't do operations? Not yet. Not yet. So you majorly do... we are majorly into development. Like crazy. If you want a drone that is going to fly your camera, I mean to just have a camera, 4K camera on it, bro, I'm not going to develop it for you. I'll just tell you, buy DJI Mavic Pro, buy Phantom, 4K, because she won't be able to have for me. But if you want a drone, let's say the last time some guys in the oil and gas sector, they were trying to clean up something. These... I've forgotten what they call them, rope access guys. Maybe somebody jumped off by mistake, fell off the cliff. The labor people came after them, that they made this oil company pay like maybe 1 billion naira. And they were like, 'I don't want to do this mistake again. Can we get a drone that will be able to do that for us?' We build that bespoke for you to do that. That's like a robot. A robot is a flying drone too. I'm sorry, a drone is a flying robot. So I'm just curious, right, when is about the guy falling off from there? Why did he fall off? No, I'm saying by mistake, maybe errors, maybe. And yeah, and because of that, the company is saying, 'We don't want to use humans to do that again.' Say for example, you're transferring cargo, you're trying to do mapping, and you're using helicopter in the oil and gas sector. It's a whole lot of money because you're going to be burning that turbo, some turbo prop engines for your helicopters. You are burning aviation fuel and all of this. Like, 'Okay, you know what, let me just reduce this. I also don't want humans, but I want a drone to do that. Let's make something that can carry a payload of let's say maybe 20 kg. And we're not looking at... talk to come up with this. Should we have a hybrid system of propulsion, or should we start even be researching into something totally different, like aerostatic, helium-inflated balloons, because they will be able to do something like that? And all we need to do is like automations, do some other advanced control system, have some catapult system, such that if anything is going to happen, it might be a little bit slow, but it will get the job done, and it can even carry up to 50 kg. We will come, we will research about it, we will develop it, we model it optimally to see. So whilst you're telling me that your problem is this and you think a drone might solve it, it might not even be a drone. And that's where our expertise comes from, because it might just be a robot. Say for example, IED detections. Like, 'Please, can you get me something that can do some imaging that can penetrate the ground and can also help us to...' We might not deploy a drone there.

I think a friend of mine was asking that. I mean, currently people use a lot of satellite technology in terms of surveying places and the rest. Is that what you meant by satellite technology for drones, or how do you apply yours in terms of satellite when you said pseudo-satellite?

Okay, so powering drones in terms of feedback and communication can be done in so many ways. You can be using the conventional... all of them have different communication devices. You have your GPS, you have your SATCOM. So satellite has a longer range, you can cover everywhere. So see it like a satellite. So you need a satellite constellation particularly to be installed on those drones for communication system. And for those ones, they are special drones, and you need to also... there are drones that have that, but most of the conventional drones that we have are not powered by satellite. We are looking into also partnering with the Nigerian Satellite Communication, NASRDA. Are you guys doing something with them currently? We have had a lot of conversation. The MD is a fantastic human being. Jane. So Jane, we are having good conversations around that. As a matter of fact, there was a project we were supposed to do around... we are still talking about it. It's been this year. It's actually this year. She's interested. She's doing a whole lot around... they've got satellites that people are not using. She's been able to develop a couple of strategies around that to ensure that people see what they are doing right. And it's quite interesting. On our own part, one thing that I also want to do is that for these our ultra-long endurance UAV, if we are using the Nigerian satellite, maybe if they can give us a constellation, people will see how effective it is. And maybe much more later on, if most drones are even powered by satellite, we can have a digital plate number for most drones, so there is a unique identifier for that, so there is trackability, a pattern to be able to know who owns the drone and whatnot. I know all drones cannot be powered by a satellite anyways, but if they are able to bring it down as much as possible that it can be affordable to some selling sector, it will be interesting.

I mean, kind of moving a bit away from drones and talking about AI. You've been running... you decided to do AI, but you said to do AI different from what we ever know AI to be. You're doing more AI robots. What exactly is that about, and why the robots instead of... because I mean, there are lots of arguments, right? There are arguments that tell you that AI will first of all, like, it's cheaper to get AI to do basic stuff like maybe number crunching and helping you with information than necessarily getting AI to do physical things, right? It's an interesting space. Even globally, they've not made so much progress in physical robots in a way that makes it affordable. What exactly made you guys just choose to go into that? You just chose the hard one. Like, people were doing software, you want to do hardware.

Okay, so AI is an enabler, and it's going to be a bedrock for most technologies going forward. AI is a data user. AI is a model that is fed by data. It is, and it's just for decisions. So well, then instead of having those decisions, the decision can be pseudo-random or exponentially random, like infinitesimally such that it doesn't have upper and boundary points. Our own, we looked at... it's not because we want to do what people haven't done before, but we just want to be ahead of technology, ahead of whatever it is that is conventional. And that's the only way to also challenge every other person like, 'You know what, in Africa, in Nigeria, things cannot happen.' I mean, it is our time. We started seeing Nigeria as that, to be honest. I believe if the tools that are available... we have our own GPS, for example. Bro, to get GPS is not beans. I would wish that we have more servers so that we can even train more. We can train more because the better you train, the more you train, the better a model is in terms of how responsive, how accurate in terms of decision making. So why is it... it's a whole lot of requirement, but we want to do that not to prove to anybody that this thing, but to also encourage the ecosystem that a lot is happening around. However, our focus also is in line with our focus. Our focus is deep tech. It's not conventional. So our focus is deep tech. When we did the robot, of course, for the robot to move, the robot becomes redundant, it's just a skeleton, if it is not being able to... if it's not powered by something to be able to make decisions. So we decided to make it not infinite, but it means that our reaction where she learns from our learning capability is not in any way constrained. The more you expose her to learn, then the better it's going to perform. Say tomorrow, if she sees you today and says, 'Elijah, how's it going?' She has a vision, a computer vision, and be like, 'Oh, my name is Elijah, right?' And be like, 'Elijah, tomorrow when you come around, be like, 'Oh, Elijah, it's good to see you today again.' And then if she's able to learn your pattern of this thing, and then one time you were speaking like, 'Elijah, I remember the last time we spoke, you were wearing like this, it looks like... can you tell me what happened to you?' You be like, 'Oh, I'm sad.' Once she has been able to learn the algorithm she needs to know your pattern, like, 'Okay, what makes you sad?' She keeps building on that. So if another time you said you are sad, but it's another way, then it builds as much. So the system is constantly getting better, getting better. So you have exposed it to be able to learn and keep learning.

But what are you guys doing? I mean, this really like you said, deep tech, emerging technologies, and you guys are the frontline at it. But one of the key things that help drives organizations and nations are people. So how do you balance in terms of getting quality talents to help build this project? Because I don't imagine you're doing everything yourself.

No, no. We have about over 100 engineers in-house across AI, MLOps, ML, data, data engineers, cybersecurity, embedded systems, mechatronics, space, software, DevOps. That's quite a lot. Full stack, back and front end. A whole lot. What first of all, I cannot compete with a global remuneration in the US, especially when they're paying in dollars. But what we can compete with is making you understand what a purpose is, and making sure that you understand that you're also part of that vision. So a whole lot of people that are around here, I think it's one thing that is quite interesting. We got, I can say, we have like the best talent that you can get anywhere in Nigeria. If you come in here, if you leave here at Unicon for another place, to be honest, you can't be the same. You can't be the same in terms of ideas and knowledge. So getting talent has not been easy. Every organization, startup as it is, do you train your own talent? We do. We do. So you develop your own talent. In Dev, I think you guys have a program for women in STEM. We do. We also have something we do for... it's like a CSR we do where we train the girl child in some interesting skill sets.

So with everything that you've accomplished so far, what's something that you still struggle with as a business?

I feel like I'm not able to tolerate so much. I don't have that tolerance. Your meter is low. Yeah, it's too low. And I still struggle with understanding the Nigerian landscape when politically. I think I'm too technocratic. I think people say I'm too integrity-conscious. I think I'm too... people say I'm too straightforward. And I sometimes want to question if it's a bad thing. I'm honest. I'm sorry, but I can't kiss asses. So I feel like I know too much to want to start... I mean, things can just be merit-based environment. We can have a merit-based environment. And then when you have put a lot into yourself, I think that's just what I personally struggle with. To say, why do I need to go and do some certain things to get some certain things done? I know that's the way it's done here. I've been here for long. I'm Nigerian. I've stayed most of my life in Nigeria. But it's just not good. I'm just not able to do some certain things. That's the only one. Why still in Nigeria? Because if I leave Nigeria, I might not be able to become the president of Nigeria. So I want to become the president of Nigeria. So I'm here to learn. I'm here to learn the pattern very well. But I constantly have to leave and go sometimes. But I want to be here. The people up there are doing their best, and I'm learning what they are doing. I'm seeing what mistakes they are making, and I want to serve. I want to, when it gets to that time, do something much more different. It's been very quiet, difficult. A lot of people are going to say that man just join them to get to that place. When you get there, you can make the change. And I'm saying, if that's the only way, that can't be the only way. I believe that technology is actually going to be the only thing that can create the optimal revolution that people are talking about. For example, okay, let's cut out that. But technology is something that can... that's the only thing that can actually create revolution as it is. And there's a thin line between technology and spirituality. Whatever technology hasn't solved, we give the glory to spirituality. So in the past, if anybody during the Roman Empire would say that somebody in the US can hear my voice here, it would be called witchcraft, and they will kill the person. And people that had chickenpox sometime ago were actually killed because they said it was something from the gods. It was because they didn't have a vaccine. That was the only problem. And then when you talk about disappearance, somebody leaving and somebody appearing, it's a function of speed and time. I believe in God, but it's a function of speed and time. So take a look at the ring. Just keep watching, keep watching. If you pick a particular point on this ring, the faster I go, your optical sensor ability might not be able to behold it. If I find a robotic hand that is able to wave this faster, you won't see my hand, not to mention the ring. It has disappeared. Disappearance is your inability to be able to see a movement. So where disappear to is another thing we can talk about, but first, disappearance can happen technology-wise, not just spiritual. It's because there are subatomic movements that are happening that our eyes cannot see very well, which is totally of Einstein or Newton's law. Those ones don't apply. Remember, Einstein kind of alluded to it. It talks about when you talk about... yeah, we all agree, laws of relativity. We all agree that when it gets to subatomic level, then sometimes we blame it on entropy, and then we start quoting some... but yeah, so a whole lot of things happen. So disappearance, I believe there is a thin line between spirituality and this, and I believe technology at the end of the day has come to stay and it's going to be the major disruptive solution.

But when you think about future, whether it's AI or drones, what excites you the most right now?

Man, to be honest, when I think of the future, I think of AI and what AI would do.

Do you think we'll be able to reach artificial general intelligence?

I think AI is going to get there, yes. I think it's going to be a norm because it's going to make so many things. It's going to be in everything. It will be too available that everybody in another 30, 40 years, it will be a normal thing to at least 70 to 80% of Nigerians. So I mean, if you go back and give your younger self one piece of advice, what would it be? My younger self, what I would probably tell him is to not see being versatile as a blessing, rather see it as a curse. Because sometimes being versatile, being multi-talented, can be a curse. It becomes a blessing only when you know it's a curse. I was able to do so many things up until a point that I was very good at them all, and I didn't know what pattern to go. It can be a curse. You would think it's actually a skill. It is only when you have been able to identify it as a curse that it can be a blessing to you, because at that time you will be needing it later on, but not as the conventional tool to grow you. So I will tell my younger self, I will also teach my younger self to be able to identify and believe in one thing and just go for it, go crazy about it.

What would that one be?

It's still going to be tech. But you know, it's still going to be tech. But in the past, I'd gone into... I wanted to sing, musician, really. I've been... I'm still a speaker, but not actively. I used to be a speaker. I could do a whole lot.

That's very interesting actually, because thinking of it as a curse is what unlocks the blessing. That's quite an interesting one in terms of your advice, because then again, most people, most young people I speak to now, struggle in terms of being multi-potentialite, and they're looking to know what best to pursue. So I think that's a very good piece of advice. So I'm very excited to see the innovations that you guys have been cooking over here. I see the VR headset. I would love to see... may I, I don't know if we could take a tour and then explore. But maybe you tell us about the VR. Are you now making your own VR headsets?

Yes, as opposed to conventional ones, this is just a cheaper version of it.

Oh, really? It's a cheaper version of it. So what's the idea behind it? Why?

Basically, why we did it then was because we're trying to... we have a blockchain here, and we're creating a simulation environment where it can be used for different things. So we model a simulation environment, for example, for combat purposes for the defense, where they can train. We're also deploying it even with the UAV so that you can have first-person view, FPV, incorporated. And then we're also looking at building... we will show you upstairs an experience center. But basically, mostly gaming. But when we say gaming these days, it can be for training. You're just talking about simulation environment basically. So that's the idea of it. And it's more expensive to get those other bigger versions. But with this one, the only thing is you have to integrate your phone into it. It's a software together with the joysticks for controls. So there's a software that needs to... you integrate your phone, and that's it.

Thank you very much, Ronald. I think I would like us to move into the other phase of this interview, please.