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Daniel Hafner
Chief Executive Officer of KAYAK, Booking Holdings Inc

"Infantilization of Humanity" by Daniel Hafner

🎥 Apr 20, 2023 📺 RudolfSteinerBranchChicago ⏱ 126m
"The Infantilization of Humanity." Zoom presentation by Daniel Hafner from Nuremberg, Germany. The event is organized by the program committee of the Chicago Rudolf Steiner Branch.
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About Daniel Hafner

Daniel Hafner, CEO of KAYAK at Booking Holdings, has spoken publicly about travel industry trends and broader societal observations. In a 2022 interview, Hafner stated that travel demand had returned after the pandemic, citing increased leisure travel offsetting a decline in business travel. He attributed rising ticket prices to airline staffing shortages and higher fuel costs, and said that consumers were seeking off-the-beaten-path destinations and non-hotel accommodations. Hafner also called for increased capacity at government border-processing entities to address travel disruptions. In a 2023 presentation to the Chicago Rudolf Steiner Branch, Hafner discussed what he described as a declining tolerance for delayed gratification and a reduced willingness to take responsibility, which he linked to societal trends. He argued that "coming of age means you no longer have someone who can tell you what to do" and that "the more you try to make group decisions, the more you inevitably come into situations where all but two people want one thing." Hafner also commented on pasteurization laws, stating that "living beings cannot live in a sterile environment."

Source: AI-verified profile updated from Daniel Hafner's recent appearances. Browse all interviews →

Transcript (65 segments)
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Host0:11
Grateful that you're here and grateful to have Daniel speak for us today. We are recording today's session. Whether or not it's published, you know, pending is pending on Daniel's review and his comfort with it, so hopefully that'll be published, but we're certainly recording. So if you'd rather not be recorded when the Q&A starts, then you know, let me know and I can either ask the question on your behalf or we can make something else work out. So yeah, thank you again very much. I will briefly introduce Daniel and then hand over the reins.
Daniel Hafner is a member of the...
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Daniel Hafner1:14
Hello. Good evening. Good morning, good afternoon. I think I saw Western Australia, that must be way early in the morning. It's an amazing time to be alive when you can just talk to people like this around the world and see little snapshots of their moving faces. This evening's theme—it's evening here, please forgive me—today's theme is about responsibility and taking responsibility for one's own deeds.
Or when you went out to the wilderness in the old days, you really had to take care of yourself and see that you had a place to live and something to eat. And something like that happens in every human biography. There comes a time when a child says, 'I can do that myself.' It's a joyous moment. And there comes a time when a teenager says, 'I want to have my own space and have some measure of self-determination.' Perhaps most teenagers would like to have complete... and can decide what the place is going to look like and how you're going to set it up and how you're going to live.
At first, we're cared for by our parents, and the gratitude is immeasurable if you just consider how much you receive in those early years. It gives you your whole foundation for life. And at first... and everything else. That is a necessary protection so that you can become strong. Humanity as a whole also began that way. There were caregivers, protectors, leaders of humanity who, by virtue of their own special development, told us how to live, where to live... of human culture, and everyone just said and did whatever the priest said. Those were the good old days. But for several centuries now, the feeling has grown stronger and stronger that that is no longer appropriate to a modern person who wants to be self-responsible. Sometimes with violent upheaval, the old regimes have been overthrown.
Wrote at the end of his long life a brief essay called 'The Education of the Human Race.' Lessing said, 'Humanity as a whole passes through something like a childhood phase and must in the course of time come of age.' This evening, today, we want to look into a type of a childhood state or even an infantile state. Have you ever noticed that there are some people who can scarcely bear to hear the word 'no'?
I once was in a conversation group with some other people, and I went as far as to say... that the person whose views I did not entirely share came to me afterwards and said it was hurtful. And I also didn't just say, 'I see that differently.' I tried to explain why. It's very hard. And if you notice what it feels like to be contradicted, it's sometimes hard to take. Children don't like it either when they are told 'no.' But that's part of being an adult, that you don't have to take it personally. You can also understand the other person sees it differently.
In this regard, it seems worth asking why the willingness to postpone gratification seems to be declining likewise. That's one of the differences between a child and an adult. An adult can know: if I wait and don't immediately satisfy this wish, it can be helpful in the long run. But people... and our wishes are really fulfilled to a very great degree, at least on the material level, compared to the way it was in previous decades or centuries. That one could pause for a moment and be grateful, but you find yourself perhaps impatient because it takes more than three seconds for the computer signal to travel around the globe to Australia and back. How does that even happen? Do they send the signal out to outer space in some satellite relay, or does it go by an undersea cable?
Something not only to postpone it but just to say, 'I'm not going to get that,' or 'I voluntarily give it up so that someone else can have it, so that something else can happen.' It's somewhat alarming that people are losing the ability. Of course, that's a vast generalization, but you can test these statements with your own experiences. Where is the threshold of frustration? Again, this is one of the hallmarks of adult behavior as opposed to the child. Children have beautiful qualities and gifts, but the selfhood is not yet there. And how does it stand with our faculty of taking responsibility?
You talk to people... you can catch yourself being defensive, and the other person only wanted to say, 'There's an issue here,' and is not really trying to cast blame. People answer then perhaps with 'No problem,' which in many cases actually means there is a problem, but I don't want to admit it. People's capacity to commit seems to be declining as far as I can tell.
There was a time when it seems to me you could usually rely upon a person's word. All right, if it wasn't a fundamentally dishonest person, you could know: if he says he'll be there, he'll be there. Today, you can make an appointment with someone, and if you don't have a mobile telephone, you're lost. You go to the place and time and you just wait. People with mobile telephones, they go to the appointed place at the appointed time, or even before going they make one more phone call to say, 'Are you really coming?' If you think that I'm seeing this wrong, I haven't done any extensive studies on it; it's just purely anecdotal, but that's my impression. Responsibility is declining, commitment is declining.
Another phenomenon is the way that we address one another. There are cultures in the world where the way that you speak to another person is highly formalized and important. In the West, this is becoming more and more informal. That need not be a bad thing. I was often enough still called by my surname, Mr. Hafner. I was a student; the teachers called me Mr. Hafner. I don't think that was true of all of them back then, but I know that a hundred years ago that was quite universal. And now you meet a person, perhaps a reverend, an old wise person, and you immediately say, 'Hi, Sally,' without even having known her before. At least in the West, this seems to be common and commoner.
On the other hand, one can question whether that's always complemented by the necessary maturity and respect. I don't want to generalize there; it's just a question. And in general, this evening's purpose is not to tell us that we're doing things wrong; it's to ask what is showing itself here. Because many of the older formalisms maybe weren't that helpful after all, and it's just as well to let them fall, but what is showing itself here?
And inspected and made safe. It's not only in the last couple of years with the concerns about infection; those concerns were there before as well. People worry about germs, even though there is a microbiology in every living organism where the sharing of microorganisms brings strength. People worry about germs. This leads to laws... is financial in nature is a different question, but certainly the reason that is given is, 'You could get sick, there could be germs in there.' But this is inconsistent because that's true not only of milk but of any substance that you touch or eat. If you wanted to be logically consistent, you would have to boil your lettuce as well, sterilize that. You'd have to set the whole grocery store under boiling water before you even enter it and then sterilize yourself from head to foot. All right, the reality is living beings cannot live in a sterile environment; they die. But that's a different topic. The point here is the fear of infection itself will make... the smaller they are, the more so. Adults need to be able to assess risks and make their own decisions. That's part of being an adult.
A few years ago, I was on a walk in the forest. It was in Canada, a country especially concerned with security. And there was a large sign there in the middle of the forest, a metal sign such as you would find on a street normally, saying, 'Keep a safe distance. Danger of drowning.' The scene was a small clearing in the forest with a very, very small pond, scarcely more than a puddle. 'Keep a safe distance.' Why? Are people really not able to assess the danger of drowning in a small pond? 'Safety first' is the motto everywhere. We have hideous exit signs permanently illuminated in case this building might suddenly catch fire, and this applies to buildings entirely made of concrete, as is the fashion nowadays anyway, so that you can't even have a beautiful room anymore without disfiguring it, at least if it's a public space. And then there have to be fire extinguishers prominently visible at every corner of every room almost.
You can mother them or you can smother them. You can wrap them in padding, make sure they never touch any sharp object or indeed anything longer than it is wide, and above all don't let them climb on anything. But by doing so, you're impeding their development. There's a beautiful passage in 'The Enormous Room' by E. E. Cummings where he speaks about a neighbor who let his child climb trees even though the little lad was scarcely capable of self-responsibility. Another neighbor says, 'Boy is going to...' I don't want to say that you have to do that at every age with every child, but there's a serious question. At some point, the teenagers are going to go out and take risks, and possibly without telling their parents about it. And how do we prepare them for that? And how do we prepare ourselves for that? And how do we as humanity deal with this simple given that things are sometimes dangerous?
One solution which does not seem particularly mature to my judgment... by spilling hot coffee. I believe it was at a McDonald's. The result was a lawsuit. If you have the right lawyer, you can get a lot of money this way. And evidently the lawyer was skillful enough, or the law firm, that McDonald's actually lost the lawsuit and paid damages because there was no warning on that coffee cup that you could hurt yourself if you poured scalding coffee into your own lap. At this point, there's a... for healthy common sense, they should not be necessary. At the end of a ladder, you can read a label to the effect that this is the last step on this ladder and you should not try to step out beyond it. You can be sure that there was some kind of a lawsuit that led to the necessity for pasting that label on every ladder. And staircases now in public buildings frequently are expected to have black and yellow diagonal striped police tape all across them to make sure you can see it's actually the edge of a stair. Again, we take the ugliness into...
Is part of every human life. It belongs to us as a part of us. We need to understand that it is an aromatic movement within the soul, a contraction of the soul. It is a part of us and we cannot avoid it. But there is a question of how to deal with it and whether to try to regulate it out of existence. This in turn gives rise to the whole insurance industry. Here too, the point is not to condemn... produce goods. It skims something off from the economy, and whole skyscrapers full of people spend their entire lives in little cubicles there, counting the probabilities and assessing the damages. And they are, of course, paid to do so out of the surplus of actual productive economic life. The insurance companies in turn are themselves insured. That means if one of the clients... it has taken out a policy with other insurance companies around the world for just such an eventuality. So everything is covered. And again, we have the avoidance of responsibility; indeed, that is the whole point of the insurance industry.
What about our relation to language? Language is being replaced in many contexts by pictograms. Diction is shrinking. The vocabulary of a typically educated person of 50 or 60 years ago was far richer than it is today. 19th century prose typically features complex syntax... or Cooper. Today, people write with two thumbs, and they use abbreviations. 'LOL' for instance is one of the better known abbreviations, 'laughing out loud.' But there are so many of them current on the internet that you sometimes have to consult a lexicon, at least I do. There are fortunately lexica available on the internet; you can look up all of these different abbreviations: 'IMHO,' 'in my humble opinion,' and so on and so on. But you can find it everywhere. Do you know what the GAS is? The General Anthroposophical Society. I've heard people say that it be called the GAS. All right, so here too we have certain phenomena of regression in the realm of language. And the fundamental gesture in many areas of life is the expectation that someone else should solve our problems. This is appropriate for children, not so for adults.
The government should do things first. The government should educate our children, for example. Rudolf Steiner did not hold back in his warnings about that particular expectation. I will read you a couple of brief remarks that he made on the subject, representative of many others. He thought it was imperative to free the schools from any kind of influence by the state. He said during a question and answer session during the first university course, 12th of October 1920, you will find it in volume 337 of the complete edition of his works: 'If aficionados of the ideas of the Waldorf school do not even develop this much understanding, that these do involve campaigning against the dependence of the school on the state, standing up with all our forces, then the whole Waldorf school movement is for the birds. For it has meaning only if it grows into an independent realm of the life of the spirit.' That is a voice of responsibility, because the consequence is we as parents and teachers and educators must find ways of raising children without the help of an authority figure from the outside, and not abdicate that to the government. That will make the children strong, experiencing adults who take responsibility for their own decisions, even if those decisions are not always as filled with wisdom as they were in the time of the pharaoh, at least before the decadent times of the pharaohs. Indeed, the children can learn by seeing how the adults cope with their own errors.
Of the Waldorf school for the first teachers, which Rudolf Steiner gave on the 22nd of August 1919, that's just when they were getting ready to open the school. It is contained in volume 294 of the complete edition of his works and published in English as 'Practical Advice to Teachers.' I read it because Steiner does not hold back in this particular remark but tries to awaken a sense for the earnestness of the issue at hand. Here is Rudolf Steiner: 'It is a picture... the people in the parliaments should meet to make decisions about questions of teaching and education based at most on the advisory opinion of those who in turn stand no deeper in the affair than by virtue of their democratic feeling. If the affair were realized that way, as it is now commencing in Russia, this would mean that the earth would lose its mission, would be withdrawn.' This is a branch of the Anthroposophical Society hosted by our dear Chicago Rudolf Steiner Branch of the Anthroposophical Society, and so I think it right that we also face such severe challenges as are posed by words like that. It's not that Rudolf Steiner said it which proves that it's true; you can know that it's true. Yes, so we expect this...
This is dubious. A government which controls the propaganda channels, the government should also finance the religious communities of its choice. In Germany, this takes place by way of a church tax. Oh, that doesn't happen in America or Canada. And yet, approved religious communities receive tax exemptions in America and Canada, for example, as well. I don't know the details of every country of the globe, but this is very widespread. That is, there is... gift money is different from coerced gift money, which is what taxation is. And the spiritual life needs gift money. The government should also determine what medicine is and issue medical recommendations or even directives. This is not a new thing in the last couple of years; this has been a trend, an increasing trend, for a long time now. The government should, of course, protect us from poverty. You're not responsible for making a living or for seeing that you do something useful in the world; the government should take... something along the lines of if people are unable to work, it's their tough luck. That is not at all how Rudolf Steiner meant it. But there's a difference between helping people out of human initiatives and lawfully enforced, regulated pseudo-brotherhood. It's a different type of soul movement that flows with the money. Brotherhood and caring for the weak are not things that can really happen in a human sense... of human society. Some people think it should even guarantee our income. Rudolf Steiner obviously spoke against that, and it would be maybe too much to get into all of the details. I will just skip to the main idea right now so that we don't go until midnight.
This is something that Rudolf Steiner formulated early on as a general law concerning the coming of age of humanity. He called it the fundamental sociological law. He published it in the magazine for literature, of which he himself was the editor. And he often reviewed the latest books in different fields in this magazine, and this was part of a book review. A certain Ludwig Stein had written a book called 'Freedom and Society.' And in July of 1898, Rudolf Steiner wrote a review of this book in which he essentially said Stein has done us a great service in showing cultural evolution over the course of the centuries and millennia. What he failed to do, according to Rudolf Steiner... directive. It's a descriptive law, not a prescriptive law. The fundamental sociological law is simply a description of how human evolution has been going and is going. Rudolf Steiner formulates this fundamental sociological law in the course of his book review like this: 'At the beginning of cultural conditions, humanity strives for the formation of social bands. The interest of the individual... from the interest of the bands, and to the free unfolding of the needs and powers of the single person.' That is the fundamental sociological law. And since you're all muted, I can't even ask you whether you need me to read it again. If you weren't paying attention, wait for the recording to come out or ask me afterwards and I'll repeat it.
All right, now Rudolf Steiner has pointed something out here: there's a general tendency from the early... lifetimes, and it's been the trend since prehistoric times. Rudolf Steiner continues now after formulating this law, writes further in his book review, and draws some conclusions about a desirable form of human community. Because the point cannot, of course, be that you become an absolute isolated island and simply have nothing to do with the others anymore. More of this essay, the essay has the same title as the book 'Freedom and Society.' Rudolf Steiner continues immediately after formulating the fundamental sociological law: 'Now it is a matter of drawing from these historical facts the conclusions: which form of the state and of society can be the only one worth striving for, if all social development amounts to a process of individualization?'
I have... but that can block us; that can be a preconception. If you take the fundamental sociological law seriously, it does have a certain rather surprising consequence. All right, you've had enough time to think. I shall not expose you by requiring you to answer publicly. Here's how Rudolf Steiner continues: 'The answer cannot be all that difficult. The state and the society that see themselves as an end unto themselves must strive for rulership over the individual. However this rulership is exerted, whether in an absolutist, a constitutional, or a republican manner... no longer emphasize its principle of rulership. It will set itself up in such a way that the single person comes to count in the biggest possible manner. Its ideal will be the absence of rulership.' If you know a little bit of Greek, you could translate 'absence of rulership' into a technical term... its ideal will be the absence of rulership. It will be a community that wants nothing for itself, everything for the single person. If one wants to speak in the sense of a way of thinking that moves in this direction, then one can only fight against everything that today tends toward a socialization of societal institutions. Ludwig Stein does not do that... compromise between socialism and individualism, between communism and anarchism. End quote.
All right, so now he said it: anarchism. That's a little bit of a jolt, because normally people think of exploding bridges and things when they talk about anarchy and anarchists. Back then, the assassination of the Empress of Austria was all in the news; those people called themselves anarchists. After Rudolf Steiner published this... anarchism. John Henry Mackay, a Scotsman living in Germany, who had read the magazine and wrote in to Rudolf Steiner. He already knew Rudolf Steiner a little bit because he had been enthusiastic about the book 'The Philosophy of Spiritual Activity,' which is also all about ethical individualism. And so they had already had some contact on the occasion of the publication of that book, which was almost five years prior. Mackay was the rediscoverer and editor of the individualist Max Stirner. Max Stirner... nowadays Mackay is, alas, famous for something entirely different. That was after his acquaintance with Rudolf Steiner and after the death of Rudolf Steiner that he came out in favor of pederasty, but that is a whole different topic. Mackay was connected in turn with Benjamin Tucker, the editor of the magazine 'Liberty,' the journal 'Liberty' in New York City. Tucker published the recommendation of Mackay, many articles by Rudolf Steiner in this early libertarian journal 'Liberty.' Those are some of the first English translations, maybe the first English translation of Rudolf Steiner's works, at all.
All right, so anarchism is a more extreme version of that, and taken to the extreme would mean there's no government whatsoever. Rudolf Steiner was not in favor of abolishing the government altogether. He says it has its necessity, but the ideal must be to shrink it as much as possible, in keeping with each stage of our evolution. So Mackay writes into the editor. Maybe I'll even just read you parts of that; the whole thing would be too long, but because it's not that often quoted, I think it's good to hear a little bit of this. 'Dear... more urgently than ever in the last years the request of my friends reaches...' All right, Mackay goes on and on, makes some advertisements for his own book 'The Anarchists,' for Tucker's journal, and finally he gets the point and says, 'I noticed you said the word anarchism in your article there. How do you stand toward that?' This question is more in the background than in the foreground, but still he takes a stand, and he encourages Rudolf Steiner to take a stand. End of September, September 30th: 'Dear... we've met each other on the basis of the philosophy of spiritual activity.' I'm just summarizing here. Okay, here we go: 'Hitherto, I have always avoided using even the term individualist anarchism or theoretical anarchism for my worldview, for I put very little stock in such designations. If one states one's views clearly and positively in one's writings, what is then the need of also designating these views with a convenient word? ... speak my thoughts. I characterize my...'
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Host57:13
Goals I myself have no need to name my way of thinking with a customary word. All right, so he seems to be weaseling out of it again. He's not going to give a straight answer. And yet now he goes on and says, if however I were to say in the sense in which such things can be decided whether the term individualist anarchist is applicable to me, I would have to answer with an unconditional yes.
Violence is the opposite of anarchists. They are exerting their will and enforcing their will upon others, so that's not the absence of rulership. This is my summary of what Rudolf Steiner goes on to say. I'll read some more of what he says. The individualist anarchist wants no person to be hindered by anything in being able to bring to unfolding the abilities and forces.
Sounds kind of anti-social. Aren't we supposed to be nice? Battle of competition. Rudolf Steiner is speaking about the spiritual life here, where it is right to draw the sword. In the economic life, brotherhood, not a battle of competition, must guide us. The unfolding of abilities is how Rudolf Steiner defined the spiritual life later when he spoke about the threefold social order. All right, back to his answer to Makai. Individuals should assert themselves in a fully free battle of competition.
When we no longer naturally reach puberty, well that changes everything. That means, according to my math which is usually wrong, that would be age we would reach age 14 around the year 5733, end of the sixth cultural epoch. It's a long way away, but that's how long we have before natural reproduction begins to wane.
We really can no longer reproduce the way we have either, and by then we will have to be in a position to bring forth our own kind by means of speech. The larynx has a mysterious connection with the forces of reproduction. Not only does the boy's voice drop an octave when he becomes reproductively mature, but the girl's voice changes also in quality. It takes on a more velvety tone, like a violin. If you listen to the little girls or also little boys as they speak and chatter.
To create a human being by speech, to reproduce by speaking. All right, that's a glimpse of a distant future. We can put it this way. The natural maturing is leaving us bit by bit. We are being called upon more and more to do it ourselves.
Coming of age. You no longer have someone who can tell you what to do. Okay, you can get advice, but you have to take responsibility. The coming of age is that which is not insured. It is an abyss. And this is being introduced into our lives more and more: the need to come of age and the need to take ourselves in our own hands.
In the Gospel, a beautiful word can sum up all that we've been moving within us today. Christ speaks: 'No longer do I call you servants, for a servant knows not what his master does. You I have called friends, because I have made known to you the Father ground out of which I work.' I'm paraphrasing this a little in my own words.
Faced with the responsibility, with the opportunity of taking free responsibility for our own thinking, our own feeling, our own willing. That is what the gods created us for. We are to become the tenth hierarchy, the spirits of freeness. Not just external emancipated freedom, but inner freeness of spiritual activity and inner initiative. A community of free spirits, a community of friends, friends of God, to put it provocatively, colleagues. That is what the gods want. God wants colleagues.
All the troubles of our time are but the birth pangs of the free spirit, and the recoiling in fear before this abyss. But we are not alone at the abyss. Yes, it is something each one must go through in utter individuality, but we have been invited there by that great spirit who hopes to have us as friends.
And correct where necessary. Maybe that would be a good thing to do now.
That sounds good. Thank you very much. Um, yeah, and thank you very much for your presentation. There are a couple of questions in the chat, and I see Lori raising her hand, so I'll mention briefly. You know, we're all here in freedom, and you now have the power to unmute yourselves. For the sake of orderliness and to allow as many people as possible to get their questions answered, if at all possible, put the question in the chat or use the raise hand function. If you're on a phone, I know on an Android there's the little... I'll monitor what people are writing, Jonathan, so I don't have to read all that. I'll do my best. Okay, thanks, because I'm not quite keeping up with that. I understand. Yup, we have a lot of avenues for questions, so I'll do my best. Would you like to ask your question, Sebastian?
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Daniel Hafner1:18:31
Hi Daniel, Sebastian here. How are you? Hi Sebastian. I just wanted to ask you about the right sphere infringement on the name of everybody according to medical reasons. I can't hear you. I was about to write sphere infringement on the name of what? Of medical reasons on the people. So taking medical decisions for people. The right sphere or the government is currently infringing on the medical questions which are rightly part of the spiritual cultural life. Yeah, and that seems to be like the big elephant in the room right now. How to circumvent that, how to prepare around that? What are your thoughts? Thank you.
I'm sorry, I don't know how, because it's not a small thing and it's also not a new thing. These... government should take care of everything, and above all should take care of problems. It's really a long-term educational necessity, this question of the attitude of taking responsibility for our own problems. Because when you overthrow any kind of encroaching government gestures, the problem is still there in the world, and then the question is how can we as free adults deal with these things in a practical and real way.
Yeah, but this is the first time on a global scale that has been unanimously taken up by the entire world without any opposition. It's quite a... I'm sorry that I am not quite sure of the most important steps, but I'm sure they must begin with the formation of consciousness. This much I can say. Simply storming the barricades may be necessary sometimes, but it will never be sufficient.
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Host1:21:39
Thank you. Thank you very much. There's a brief question I'll ask, and then I'll call on Laurie. Victoria, Celia, and then Victoria. Barry asks if you can cite that Gospel passage you quoted. That's John, the Gospel according to John.
Hi, it touches on Sebastian's question. Can you... I like the answer you said is not storming the barricades. Could you speak a little bit more in depth about what we can do on the development of our inner life that could make a difference in the way that we participate in society, in our outer life? I didn't hear the last few words, Laurie. How we can develop our inner life that could make a difference in the way that we participate in the outer world, in community. You know, the problems seem to be affecting us from government mandates.
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Daniel Hafner1:23:11
In our actions in the outer world. Any inner work always has an effect, and that's one of the fundamental attitudes cultivated in the basic book about how to attain knowledge of the higher worlds. The realization that our thoughts and feelings are realities, and they do have their effect even if outwardly we achieve no success. The news media always convey the message, never really outspoken but between the lines, that just doesn't show up in such a sensational way and doesn't make it to the headlines. Even feeble efforts at inner work are of great significance to the whole cosmos. All right, that's perhaps too easy an answer, and how to find our way into the actual present situation and do deeds in outer life, that's a difficult one. It calls for moral fantasy and may vary from region to region. I don't pretend to be the expert in that. But any inner work that strengthens our awareness, that arises out of the whole sphere of the philosophy of spiritual activity, any inner work that arises out of the awareness of one's own higher self and one's own lower self, is going to make us more mature in the sense in which I've tried to say it today. Responding with frustration and anger is merely a sign that we indeed are not mature and actually do need the government to tell us what to do, or some kind of authority.
Fear, because that's a universal fluid right now. An aura of fear is surrounding humanity, and that applies to the people who are afraid of the virus and to the people who are afraid of the vaccinations, and to the people who are afraid of losing their human rights, and so on and so on. So I think the work with the soul calendar and the work with the philosophy of spiritual activity, it doesn't have to be those exact books and those exact verses, but anything that comes out of that... We live in a time when it is an unparalleled opportunity to practice the second half of the maxim of free people: letting live in the understanding of the other person's will. To let live not merely begrudgingly, but in the understanding of the other person's will. That can be a daily practice. And then we meet each other differently. I mean, that would be my path. I would try to start with individual encounters and not go to the streets and suppose that by waving a flag we can change things.
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Host1:28:16
Thank you. If we're ready to move on, I'll call the next person. Victoria Silo.
Good evening. Can you hear me? Yes, hello Victoria. Thank you. I'm in California. My deepest concern is actually within the anthropological community and the Rudolf Steiner schools themselves. That concern is there are certain schools in California, Rudolf Steiner schools, that have now mandated that all of their faculty, adolescence students within their high schools that are not being vaccinated, isolating them from the other students that have been vaccinated. To me, these are not just anti-social activities, but extremely traumatizing as a psychotherapist and student of human development. Adolescence is a time when segregation in this way is extremely harmful to them. This is the age of group think, and I wonder how you reconcile that in your thinking with what you talked about earlier, and that is the freedom of the human being, the freedom of the individual to make their choice. In the past you said it was the individual giving over to the band or the tribe or the group, but now in the age of the consciousness soul, it is for the individual to be able in freedom to make their own decisions. How you reconcile that with what's going on at least in my state with some of the Rudolf Steiner schools?
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Daniel Hafner1:31:10
Right. Philosophy of spiritual freeness, this philosophy of inner activity. The one thing is the schools can do as they wish. I actually support that. And if all of the faculty decide these injections are just what we need, and that's totally necessary and we've got to do it, they should make that clear and they should be that kind of school. That's why there are other schools for people who might want to do it differently. It's easier said than done, but as far as that goes, we can say... The real thing yet. That's the adolescent illusion of freedom. 'My mother no longer tells me that I have to get up in the morning or clean my room.' That doesn't mean you're actually free in an inner sense. So the second question and the more important is: what does this school do once it has the permission to do whatever it wants? And this is where Rudolf Steiner spent most of his effort, trying to help the teachers to find a new view of what a human being is, so that they could educate the children differently. That's what I suppose is missing in the cases that you say. If there's not an awareness of these issues that you talk about, not a sufficient awareness, or not a... To be self-determining, that they really take into the bargain the possibility that we'll go off and do some mighty stupid things. And so far we've been doing that a lot, quite a lot. I know I have. It's a topic that comes up quite poignantly in the conversation with the Grand Inquisitor in Dostoevsky's Brothers Karamazov. The Grand Inquisitor actually proves, refutes Christ, quite logically too, and says, 'You shouldn't have given them that freedom. They're just ruining stuff. You should tell them what to do and make it right.' Yeah, okay, so that's the consequence. Otherwise we have to allow all kinds of stuff nowadays and try to let live in the understanding of the other person's will, painful though that often is. Because the alternative, if I take it to the extreme, is: I know better than those schools, and I'm going to go over there and tell them how they should be running their schools. But that cannot really be the ultimate goal of evolution either.
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Host1:35:14
And the center from everything I've explored is not being met. It is the extremes, one way or the other. It is not me personally, but an individual wanting to say I know better than you. It's also certain, in this case faculty members saying I know better than you and eliminating other faculty members. Yes, not even allowing natural immunity. If someone's already had the virus, natural immunity is the gold standard for immunity, not any... And only think one way in science and eliminate everything else. Maybe it's possible to speak with some of these people. I've been writing letters. Yes, that's good, and especially if you know them. It's hard when an outsider comes and says you're doing everything wrong. And it's also hard when a central board says it, I don't know, Association of Waldorf Schools of North America or some other group, mandates with a blanket mandate. That would be a possible method, but in my experience the most effective is if people can understand it and speak about it. But it's hard because there's a polarization.
Thank you. Thank you very much. I was sent a note, but I know that there had been a hand up before Paul which was lowered. The other Victoria, did you want to ask anything? Otherwise I'll ask Paul to speak.
Hello, can you hear me? Hi Victoria. Hi Daniel and hi everyone. Thank you so much Daniel for sharing all your thoughts. My question is regarding also teenagers, but specifically my teenager. How can we support young people when they want to... Like how you can support young people when a young person does not want to face the reality, the current reality. Like I don't want to hear about it, I want to avoid anything, to be exposed in any way to it. How we can help to support them?
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Daniel Hafner1:38:42
Yes, look at the process of what is happening. The strongest is if a person can face reality, even the painful parts of reality. But with a young person, and able to speak to a young person, the ideal should be helping the young person to endure it. Because there's so much pain and ugliness in the world, and some of the young people are astonishingly tender in their souls. Even the ones who put bolts through their noses and tattoo themselves and shave off their hair and make themselves ugly are sometimes very, very tender in their souls. I mean, they're different types of young people of course, but a lot of them are far more innocent and delicate than one might suppose. And it hurts me too to look at that, whatever the example may be. But to show, if you can show the young person a way of looking at it that does not merely involve condemning and does not involve fleeing. In other words, the question to parents and educators is always essentially a question of self-education. That's another thing that Rudolf Steiner said more than once. If I can find a way to look at this part of the painful reality of our present world, then I can help. If I myself am freaked out by all of the wrongs in the world, then I have to deal with that first before I can help other people.
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Host1:41:33
Um, I'd like to say Daniel before moving on. No, thank you Daniel. Yeah, I just wanted... How we can help to strengthen the young person so they can face things in life better? I mean, I know that's education, but I mean when they are done with education, like to us as well, but there is another way like besides our self-education and offering our views.
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Daniel Hafner1:42:44
No, the indirect approach is the strongest. Strength and the good. You don't have to go and talk about the most difficult issues all the time and put them in the center of your consciousness. You do have to look at experiences and abilities, and above all activities. Young people want to do something good, they don't just want to hear about it. And the more they're active, the more they grow strong. And that works indirectly, preparing them to meet all of the unpleasant things which are going to come inevitably in one form or another anyway.
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Host1:43:54
Thank you much. I see Paul's hand raised.
As with this impulse for control of people at the current time, it seems I thought about that is that this first self-interference involved and there's a type of looking backward I guess as well. Times in the past where, you know, medieval times and before that where there was more control on people. It's also a fear of the creative spirit too. That's definitely within these people that if control was relinquished in an appropriate way, things would get out of control and take forms that they wouldn't really like possibly. So with this, and I think a lot of the citizenry... Um, and certainly we need something like you said appropriate for our age. But did this lately it seems like a big step backwards, and if we look at the previous century, that's kind of a very dangerous place to go. Um, and then there's a thing... Oh yeah, it's probably my internet connection. Am I still there? Yeah, you said the previous century looks like a dangerous place to go. After that I couldn't hear you. Oh okay, yeah, I'll wrap this up quickly. I got an unstable connection I think. I have an old router because it doesn't put out a strong signal, and I figure it's... And I take it there where and it's a call to be morally upright. And in that chapter, and I think that's the essence. Whatever happens is to keep our moral bearing and our faith, and faith in the spirit. And then in Paul, there's a chapter there, I think it's Ephesians, where he talks that he says that our battle is not with beings of flesh and blood, but it's against powers of darkness. And it's definitely a message for this age that we shouldn't be fighting with each other. We should realize that the problem is really the darkness in each of us.
As Joanne. Hi Daniel. Thank you. Yeah, thank you both. Forgive me if I mispronounce your name, Novenka. Did you want to ask a question? You messaged me directly. Oh actually, it looks like Novenka dropped out. So I apologize there. I know that I had seen a hand up from... Listening to you speak, I feel a blasphemy into this space sharing your thoughts. And it's a very obvious thing to say, but when you were speaking right at the beginning about the materialism, I wanted to really just say that I feel it's particularly that whole movement that we're still resolving, and that Steiner was born into to offer a response from, was very much just the Western spiritual stream. The fall, I feel it was so much about the Western spiritual stream, and the fact that anthroposophy... And really just I was so aware in response to what I really understand about that question about what can we do, really aware of you being in Nuremberg, and that this is an opportunity as a group for us to hold this deep intention that I know we all have to be transformative in our daily way, in our daily lives. And I wanted to, this is a bit of a joke, me making this comment about blasphemy, but I want to offer a little blasphemic comment of my own. Of more and more subtle understandings of spiritual science that are seeing how the etherization of our blood is a gift. Thank you.
Thank you, Sarah.
Us Sansei. Japanese American. I was born and reared in Hawaii. My parents, grandparents were immigrants from Japan. And my parents were born and lived during the time of the Second World War. They directly experienced martial law following the bombing of Pearl Harbor. And if you talk about top-down government, martial law is probably one of the strictest forms you can encounter. And I'll give you a couple examples. To prevent further bombing of the citizenry, when they drove around they had to blacken the headlights and leave just a little pinhole for light to shine out to be able to navigate. My father at that time was a salesman of ice cream, and he had to drive around the island on this pretty rickety, bumpy, not terribly safe roads to do his job with that kind of light. And perhaps after listening to the discussion, I think I'm on the other end of the spectrum of what has been expressed here. So, I mean, from what I can see, people did not follow it at that time. That would have put at risk other citizens, other individuals. So I guess the broader question is: are there such times in history when the surrendering, either consciously, willingly, or unconsciously, unwillingly, of one's freedom for the greater good of the greater whole, is that a viable position?
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Daniel Hafner1:53:51
Of course. Rudolf Steiner's main guideline, and he always said you have to look at the actual details of real life of course, but the main guideline that he offered was maintaining the equality of human rights. That would be something which the government can and must do. And to deal with pickpockets, of course the root of the problem is again a cultural spiritual problem: how are these people brought up and educated, and what happened to them in their lives? But when they're actually in the act of stealing someone's purse, coercion can be necessary. You might have to stop the guy and grab him, or in the extreme case lock him up or something. But that's always to be dispensed with great caution, because well, I think we can all feel that.
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Host1:56:10
Left. I'm sorry, two minutes left. Do you feel comfortable committing to either or both of those, Daniel? Sure. All right, then I'm going to cut it off with Theodore, and then whoever has their hand up for iPhone 11. But Theodore, if you'd like to ask your question, out of respect for you I will now call you Mr. Hafner, if I may.
All right, Mr. Petranco. We used to be on a first name basis, but I understand. I have a suggestion and then a question. Out of... to grow out of this infantilism. I have just come across for the first time in 40 years a Road to Self-Knowledge, which I thought was so amazing. Would you tell me what you think is really relevant for you these days?
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Daniel Hafner1:57:17
The Philosophy of Spiritual Activity is always in the foreground, but that book that you just mentioned, Road to Self-Knowledge, that's great. That belongs to the whole group of books about the inner path of self-development. Yeah, it's hard to choose just one. Yeah, I mean those eight meditations, I can't get through the first one. Yeah. Thank you, Daniel. Mr. Head. I'm going to call you Ted now if you call me Daniel.
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Host1:58:10
Thank you. And whoever raised their hand... I can't hear you too well. Sorry. When Henry Barnes was the Secretary General of the American Society, there is a story about it having kept the entire American portion of... I'm sorry, are you calling from the bottom of the ocean? I heard Henry Barnes, Secretary, and maybe four stunt, but that's about all I got. So he helped... And I've often wondered what I thought about that. Is that forced? Is it free? How does that work in the real world? Did you say Henry locked him in a room for a hundred hours? No, he had... That's pretty long too. Yeah, I think so. But he didn't lock the door, so maybe they realized there was some wisdom in it. Well, nobody ever complained about it that I know of. I mean, he was a very diplomatic man. I know.