Toxic Relationships: My Interview with Elizabeth Chambers

Yeah, bring it. Bring it.

Yeah, I mean, listen, I never met a more traditional girl, right? Like, I love the Christmas cards. I like family is everything. And I met the love of my life when we were 19 and 23. And every day I was like, 'How is this my life?' Like I have the most amazing kids, the most amazing home. Like again, like, you know, I'm from the south. Very traditional. Like I loved the monograms more than any like everything that exists has monograms on it. And I just felt like I just loved my life. But, you know, with this perfection comes also this like fear that it's going to go away or I don't know. I look back at pictures and I was like, 'Were you so happy?' And I was, but also like I was holding on so tightly to this idea that I had and it was like I did have an amazing marriage. And then one day my life turned upside down and, you know, I was told that he told me that he had an affair and, like, infidelity to me would normally be like a non-starter, you know, but when you have two young kids and one that's just born, you really should fight hard for your family. So we went to like extreme therapy. Esther Perel, like I was like we're going to do this we're going to do it right and then the infidelity continued and for me that was just not an option and again some so many people are fine with it or people can look the other way but I just live in truth and that wasn't something that I could work with so ended up filing, you know, a couple years later when I had it was the last straw and, really my focus was not on myself because I knew I was going to be fine, but it was on my kids. Divorce in of itself is traumatic. It is inflicting trauma on your children that you've brought into this world with the promise that you will never hurt them, right? So, you're like, now I'm making a decision and a choice that's going to effectively hurt them. And that was something I really couldn't live with. So, I became obsessed like a crazy person with figuring out how to minimize and mitigate this trauma. And I spoke to every family separation therapist you can imagine. I engaged people in the Upper East Side of New York who is a Hasidic Jewish community or a lady in Denmark or London in Paris, like just people who were really recommended who obviously didn't know me. They didn't know my kids. They don't know my story. They've never met them. But it was kind of one of those it's just a research mission and trying to take as much as I could from each one of them to figure out how to minimize it. And the overall theme is that again, it's not about my hurt and my pain. It's about making sure that they have a solid father figure in their lives and making sure that we're all the best we can be mentally healthy, you know, across the board. So, that was so important to me. And now, I mean, 5 years later, we've like, you know, it was absolute hell for a really long time, especially because it was so public. We were living in the Cayman Islands and, but that was nice because, you know, you don't have headlines splashing. You're removed. Yes, you still have the internet, but you can turn your phone off and pretend it doesn't exist. But it still hurts and it's just it was so much. That said, I'm so proud of us like as a family and my kids are exceptional and extraordinary and I mean we did we you know we we made it through that and for anyone who's going through I would say like there is certainly light not only light at the end of the tunnel but the only way to get through it is to really go through it go through the hard stuff. I mean going through if you're going through hell just keep going. Like that's such a cliche but it's so true and you have to you have to like feel it all. You have to live it all. There's just no shortcut. So, thank God for I mean there's so many amazing therapists that work with children and again they don't even at this point in their lives. They're eight and 10 like they don't have any idea as to what I went through or not. You've shielded them from that too young to know right but I think it's also so important you know they just they have therapists once a week which she is aware that I'm like want to preemptively give them the tools in their toolbox. So, that's how the show really came about was looking at these family patterns, looking at, I look at my son, he looks so much like his father and his grandfather and his great-grandfather and has the same last name and the same blue eyes and I thought, you know, at the same time this documentary came out that was I didn't really I didn't watch it, but it was made by someone in their family and I was just like, this is my kid's last name.

It was Army's aunt and she basically told her story and I wasn't privy to a lot of the information. She wrote a book and she told the story and I wasn't privy to that information. You know, you get married, you love their parents, you love, you know, you hear your family, their family history that's told to you by the family. And so obviously every family has things and, but not every family has them written about. And so I really I didn't know a lot of these things, but all I did know is that I have two children with this last name, with this DNA, and with the future of being exposed to all of this information. So those are the three things I knew, right? So all you can do is what you can do with the information you have. So I just for me and again like we go through life as moms feeling that that challenges or any sort of trauma is the worst thing for our kids, but like truly it's not. They need adversity. Kids need adversity. Not only is adversity good for kids, like it's necessary for them to build their toolbox. So that's like kind of my that was my exciting takeaway in terms of doing the research on for them and for the show is, you know, why do people fall into patterns? How much does your childhood shape who you become who you choose as a partner? Why are we brushing things under the rug when things should be discussed and openly, you know, broken down in the beginning of a relationship? Like we get into relationships so young. We don't know who we are in our early 20s. We haven't even had a chance to really like, no, it's like your full your frontal lobe is fully formed by what 25 years. I think for males I think it's like 32. I feel like you're being generous. Or they're still in progress. We're not sure. But like that's a thing. And so I'm grateful honestly now that I have the tools and that my children will have the tools and that's so empowering, right? Like you can run from your story, you can run from your truth, you can pretend it doesn't exist, which bless our parents' heart. Of course they did. Women didn't even have credit cards until they were like until what 1977. Of course they just brushed it under the rug. They didn't have a choice. They couldn't they had to stay in a relationship and everything had to be great cuz what's the alternative like facing it?

Exactly. Or I mean it's actually just as simple as saying would I want my daughter to stay in a relationship where she's not being respected or do I want my son to feel like it's okay? Absolutely. Because as moms we do things for our children that we don't do for ourselves. You know, like I will happily eat a cookie for breakfast and pie for lunch, but like when I'm pregnant, I'm like, you're building a superhuman like, you know, organic salmon. Yes. I was a crazy person about like 9,000 ounces of organic salmon every day for the brain. So, like we do things for our kids that we don't do for ourselves. And so, yeah, I think it's I'm so grateful because truly adversity as adults, too. I mean, it just makes us stronger. And really there's nothing that you can't do when you're set up for that. And that's like again why the show is so important to me because the conversations about financial abuse are so important, emotional abuse and balance in a marriage. And I cannot tell you when our I mean even before we aired, I'd have had people messaging me, you know, I went to Vanderbilt, had great grades, financially independent, met a man who took over my Audi payment, they got me a new car, and next thing you know, I have no autonomy. I have I am basically asking for an allowance and she was in a shelter. I mean this is very upper class highly educated successful before she was married woman who basically had everything stripped from her little by little. It doesn't happen quickly and you don't even know what's happening and it's so it's almost done so masterfully and with such an art. And that's something we talk about a lot on the show and I know we're going to dive into it more but the red flags, the different forms of abuse, how they manifest, how people groom you and it's like it truly can happen to anyone. There's no perfect victim. There's no perfect prey. It's like everyone's susceptible to it. And like you said, it's you don't even know what's happening. You're like, 'This guy's taking care of me. Oh my gosh, he wants to pay my car payment.' Or, 'Oh, he wants me to live with him and so I don't have to pay rent.' And before you know it, there's nothing of your own anymore. You can't escape that situation because you feel like there's nothing. And it's a really scary place to be in, right? And you find yourself in a shelter. I mean, listen, there's so many different ways it could go, but that is I mean, that ultimately is the messaging and the conversation that needs to happen because there's shame. There's so much shame attached to this when you're like, you literally did everything your mom, you know, told you to. And we're message this, we're fed this messaging. I say this all the time. We're fed this messaging in Disney movies and then we're fed this messaging in, you know, by YM or Cosmo or like YM. Oh, man. That's a throwback. That's a good one. No, that's a good one. But like 17, it's like learn to give the perfect so we put a ring on it. Like that's what we were taught to do to No, learn to give the perfect cuz you want to, you know, like not because that the marriage is our goal. And they like really they groomed generations of pick me girls.

I hope so. I think so. And with again more conversation, more advances in science and you know people being able to freeze their eggs, but also I think I don't know. I think this next generation like I started in news and I can't like we have to laugh at all the bad jokes and rooms full of white men that were like 70 and we had to like think make them think they were funny when they weren't. And I don't think this next generation really I don't know. I think that they're a lot more I think they're a lot a lot more like in tuned with what's fair and what's not.

Yes, exactly. I wasn't going to go that far, but totally true. No, it is true.

Right. Well, I knew like there was so much again so much circulating. And while I was really frustrated because a lot of it was misinformation or again very like skewed in a sexist way. And there was I mean like flat-out lies, I was so tempted to, you know, to like defend myself or defend the situation or set the record straight. Like that's what we do. But also I also know that at the same time, you know, the press wants it to be a mud flinging on us and I was not going to say anything negative and to this day I would never say anything negative about my children's father to them or, you know, ever make them think that I have nothing but the utmost respect for him. But I knew that like that's what would feel good at the time. And my mom always says, 'Nobody ever regrets taking the high road.' So it was really hard to like sit there and see people spiral and weave like untruths. That said, all I had was my journey and my children's mental health, right? So I really dived deep. I did like obviously tons of therapy. I went so woo-woo. I was burning paper sending it to the... Did you do any of the like ketamine therapies or anything? I didn't do that just cuz I really like my brain chemistry. Like that's all I that's all I see on my TikTok, you know, and I'm like I'm kind of curious but I'm also kind of scared. I am too. Like the MDMA I just read this really crazy book, wonderful book by Amy Griffin. I'm like wow that's so fascinating. But like the one thing I will say is I I really appreciate how balanced and like non-mood like I'm very balanced. So I just don't want to mess with that and there was enough of stuff that was being messed with. So, no, I just said like sound baths and like manifestation and we were living in the Cayman Islands at Palm Heights and it was just like a very magical time where again if I you know it was for a long time it was just a cycle like I'd wake up and be like oh my gosh it's going to be a great day and then by 11 boom like another thing would come out. The beauty of it was I could turn off my phone and, you know, I could just be in the moment and be with my kids and those are their fondest memories. Like they don't know I would put them to bed and go like sob in the shower with the door closed. They don't know that all my friends picked up the pieces and made it seem like a really fun night. Like you're going to help me do dinner service tonight because I didn't have a nanny or babysitter and I just like, you know, needed to cry alone. Like they didn't know. They just thought that was just the community. And it was it was it was all of those things. Both can be true.

You know, it was a full circle moment. Jason Slanes, who's the president of Investigation Discovery and Discovery, he was my producer when I was at E. I was I had just come out of news and he was a producer 22 years ago. And he told my agent, you know, I want her to do a show that's exactly about what she wants to do. And I was like, oh my gosh, like that is a dream come true. I don't even know where to start. So really it started as this idea of patterns, relationship therapy, parenting, how do we examine these relationships and you know originally I didn't know if it was going to be if it was going to be like people have toxic friendships people are in very look at everything like so many people in court people have very toxic relationships in their workplace and then ultimately in diving deeply into these cases the romantic ones were the ones that really changed the course of people's life and in some cases ended it. So I became very clear that our show was going to be about toxic relationships and it became very clear that our show was going to be about toxic relationships that have ended tragically and sometimes that tragedy is in a grave and sometimes that tragedy looks like coming out on the other end and stronger. But I mean we just that's it became so clear this is something that is you know we have our Dateline we have our cold cases but this is really the prequel. Yes. Like we look at these cold cases on Dateline but we don't know what led up to that right and so the only way to potentially save lives and potentially like help people is to have this conversation started and you know like during especially during COVID there were like little things on TikTok about like breadcrumbing, ghosting and these little phrases started coming up but nothing was on TV about it and it was like a conversation you have with your friends over wine or something about like online dating but it was very like loosely in the zeitgeist, right? But it wasn't very clear and there certainly was not a show that says if you don't watch out for X, Y, and Z, you can end up here. And that's really what I wanted to happen. I wanted everyone to end every single episode being like, am I in this relationship? Is my sister in this relationship? Well, how can I prevent my kids from being in this relationship? And as moms of boys, holding them accountable.

I would say one of the most misunderstood signs is the variation of love bombing, right? Like I love love like I and I like for me I'm not like a someone who can have disconnected sex, right? So I think there's a very fine line between somebody really feeling that connection, right? They say like when you know, you know. And I've felt that like you know I felt that and I believe in soulmates. So I think yes when you know you know. But also when somebody is love bombing somebody else so much and that's their pattern or they do research like there's so much information online. So for example in episode one with Kelly Setliff he brought her mom's favorite white lilies right so she thought that was so thoughtful that was so romantic or is that textbook yeah because he does it. So I think that's like the number one thing that is it trickiest because is it romantic and thoughtful or is it formulaic?

Exactly. Exactly. And moving really quickly. So many of these women are so successful in their own right, but they move in very quickly, you know, usually under 3 to 6 months. And really just becoming so integrated so quickly into their lives while isolating them from their friends. I think and I I always say like the best indicator and red flag that you can literally get on a first date and people like I don't want to ask about relationships on their first date. I'm like ask save yourself the time by the way. Save yourself like the energy and say like what's your longest relationship and why did it end? If they can't say a nice thing about an ex or if it's always the ex's fault, red red flag like run. She was psycho, she was an alcoholic. They love to be like that like never taking accountability. And that is really and again I go back to this as a parent like our job as moms because one thing that was consistent across the board is all of these moms excuse these men's behavior and I have a daughter and a son and I'm like you're strong, you're powerful, there's nothing you can't do to my daughter and to my son I'm like how good can I make it, you know? Like I it's just hard not to. So, holding men accountable for their actions and teaching them to be a gentleman who respects women and when they don't do that growing up having repercussions.

Yes, that's such a good question.

I mean like everyone's so again it's the pick me culture like I wouldn't ask that that seems psycho that seems crazy. I'm sorry. Like do you want to waste five more hours on a second date if this person is exam you know is very much presenting these red flags. So for me, I like listen, it doesn't need to be a job interview, but you can be like super cute and playful about it. Just say like what was your longest or even like present your own information first, right? Like my longest relationship was XYZ, but it didn't really work out because our you know our work was not aligned. I was working too much or what was your longest relationship? And like just make that a casual conversation, not like they're on the spot or being interrogated, but it is really important. And if they're like she was a great person, you know, timing is everything. Green flag. Yeah, you know, at the very least yellow. We're not giving them too much credit too soon. But yeah, I think it's so important to ask that question. And then find out about their friend group. You know, a lot of these textbook narcissists and textbook abusers, and I think people throw around the word narcissist too much, but with tendencies. They don't have a really great group of friends. Like, so do you like sports? Do you watch sports alone? Do you watch sports with your friends? And then another thing that people really really do is if they've done their research, all of a sudden it's like they know that you like to hike because of an Instagram post. Oh, I love to hike. So, again, we're not interrogating them. They're not like I hooked up to a polygraph. But, I wish they were. I was saying that's my ideal first date. That would be great. That would be amazing. That would save us a lot of time and energy with heartbreak. But, you know, what was the Oh, like dig into that a little little bit. Make sure that they just didn't do their preemptive research and coming with the answers that you want. What did you like to hide? Like make sure that they have their own interests that are not mirroring yours. You know, opposites attract and they it doesn't they don't need to assimilate to you. Definitely. So really like just again it doesn't have you're not like coming with your 3x5 index card of questions, but like weaving that into casual conversation is so important. And I I really wish that we could normalize that without girls being like, 'Oh my gosh.' Again, I hear this so much. I don't want them to think I'm crazy. Okay. Well, your time is valuable. You are a coveted asset, so treat it as such. Like, you're not like, why why do you want that? You could date. That's 20 hours. Time is the only thing we don't have rollover minutes in this life. Like, why are you wasting your time to try to figure out somebody because you're trying to be polite or seem chill? Like, you can seem chill and get the answers.

I think it's like just getting to the core of who they are, right? Like being able to read if they're twitching, if they're like so many, and again, I'm basing this just on season one, but we had a lot of different cases. I mean, you see six cases on the air, but we did a deep dive into so many more to get to those six. And a lot of them had obsession. And by the way, this is not anything negative towards the military. Like so grateful for everyone who fought for our country, but a lot of them had fascination with the military or maybe they were not enlisted or some sort of fascination with police department, FBI, military across the board like some I I don't know that was just something that was really interesting to me. They were fascinated by it.

Well, a lot of them were former military, but the ones that weren't kind of like lied about it or said that. So, I there's a whole like there's a whole sect of people who say that they're Navy Seals apparently. Now, do you think that's because they want of course I mean they want to feel more powerful and more important than they are. So, they would go and I remember I forget which case it was where somebody lied about being I want to say purple heart or something like that and it was like this entire thing. So, that's interesting. And you saw that as like a pretty common thing that was consistent throughout or just you know like they like to go to the gun range. They like to again it's a certain control like quietly by saying I have a collection of knives. I have a collection of guns. Oh I just do that because and then do you kind of justify like you sound like a psychopath if you're like I have a collection of knives but then tying that in to some sort of military fascination or allegiance in a way. I also think again like just asking about how their longest relationships and how long if they lived with someone, right? So, hopefully as you're dating like someone's on the trajectory of really focusing on their own life, their own career, and not really being dependent on moving in with one woman after another. And in Kelly's case, she thought that she was, I think, the second wife, she was the fourth. And he had moved in quickly with all of those. So again, like asking questions about the past and finding the relationship with their parents. That was another thing that was so mind-blowing to me in terms of our survivors. I came into this season thinking that every single person probably had that modeled for them, like that their mom was in a relationship. But the craziest thing was that every single one of them had really lovely marriages as examples. Which again back to my point that not only is adversity not the worst thing for children it's necessary because they never saw their parents fight and I know because I interviewed these people it was like Leave It to Beaver and they had never seen so the first person that comes along and sweeps them off their feet they assume that that's just how life goes you know and that it's great and you found your perfect fairy tale ending right so ask them about the relationship with their parents their mom in particular I mean there's just so many little things that you can weave into a normal conversation. I do it with people I'm not on dates with. Like, and I just it's just...

Exactly. Lie down. I'll get a notepad. But no, I think it's just I mean, we are humans are wildly textbook in a lot of ways. And I'm not saying like you want to necessarily go ahead and put people in boxes, but you know, prejudice and prejudging exists for a reason. And if we can flip that and make it work for us instead of a way to, you know, judge someone in a negative light, like let let's get those tools in our tool box so we can save ourselves time, energy, and you know, in many cases, you've seen lives. Because it's and they're getting more they get better with each with each survivor and with each victim. And I think that's like one of the things that really echoed with every single episode was I have to stop this now because he's getting better and better with each target. And when all of these women shared that and I I hope in next season we find men because it is when all these people said that they said it was such fear. Yeah. Because they knew they were close. They knew they were lucky to be alive and that to me is just I mean that's bone terrifying thought.

I mean all the ones that are on air do for so many different reasons, but I think probably the most heartbreaking of all well I mean in addition to the heartbreak that you see on the screen was the people that we found and they had wild cases and then we were engaged. they wanted to share their story and then they would go radio silent and then you would look online and realize that they went back to their abusers and you know trying to paint the picture of he's better and that was really difficult. I mean there were two stories in particular and two cases that you know would have been so helpful to tell and they both went back and what's the statistic isn't it eight it takes eight times to successfully leave? Well it takes eight times to call the police. Oh wow. Eight episodes of they say seven to nine episodes of just to call the police. Wow. And if you see throughout our season there everyone said like aren't you so disenchanted with men? Are you so disenchanted with dating? Are you so And I'm like no you have to look for the helpers because in every episode there's a helper. And in Kate Randa's case, she would have gone back to the man that shot her in front of her son and shot her parents and almost tried to kill her son, if not for a child protective services worker, Shantrice. And she said, 'I will take your son away from you if you go back to that man.' And so it takes that it takes a helper often times or it takes an FBI detective like Detective Litman and in Kelly Setliff's case. It takes those people to say you're not willing to help yourself so I am going to step in and that's what gives I would imagine not only them hope but you hope too reporting on it researching it investigating it and as you navigate your own personal life it's like there are good humans cuz that's one of the questions I think that I get asked the most often is how do you cover such heavy material heavy cases real life stories and not become hardened by that or pessimistic about it and I I always say too like first and foremost I think their stories deserve to be heard and told and hopefully in an educational way. But I also think too it's like you have to know that there's good behind it as well and there are people like you call them helpers and so that's what gives hope and encouragement for just humanity as a whole as lame as that sounds you know. But you're doing such good work because as we both know, I mean, it's not the justice system. And I'm sorry. And it's not like that people don't go into that line of work understanding that it's so flawed. I mean, look at Morris County. They've never prosecuted a single in this entire county in New Jersey. Really? Never. Wow. I mean, it's it's unbelievable. No one spent a night in jail. Wow. For So, you know what? you want to beat the crap out of your spouse, move to more like that there and they we nobody had really said that on television. Nobody had really made that known. So you giving a voice to so many victims and to really laying things out. I mean that was the thing that was so disheartening was the justice system fails you. So of course no one's going to report. You really have to be your own advocate and it has to become your life work. I mean you if you are going to get the justice that you need or the protection it becomes no one's going to do it. No one's going to do it. You have to be an advocate for yourself and that is daunting enough when you're already trying to leave somebody who you love.

Exactly. Exactly. And having that community, you know, there's so many Kelly again, she's been she's such an advocate for women. She had her firearms taken away from her. She's the only violence survivor to have her firearm taken away. He knew that the magazine law had changed in New Jersey and that her magazine of her gun had 20 instead of 10. And so he had her gun taken away from her. So after she had already, you know, filed so many complaints and so he took her gun away and she said, 'Okay, well, I'm going to get dogs and then started a whole foundation for dogs and she with protective dogs.' So what she's done though is create this community where people see her story and come to her before it's too late or come to her after. And I think just this conversation I always say that but like that is our best that's our best weapon against this injustice is talking about it and making it common knowledge like in a dream world every 13-year-old who when they turn 16 starts to date is like no no no like that's what we need for future generation and I always say our demographic is people who have dated are dating or going to date which is everyone and then to get the help like people who have bad patterns can say wow I saw this I didn't have an opportunity to really change it or like course correct. And the ones that want to get help understand the power of therapy. And yeah, I think removing the stigma of feeling any sort of shame or like you have to protect or hide or not ask if something is weird in a relationship that you're in. Of course, I understand if you're feeling threatened or it's now at a violent or dangerous level, you may not feel comfortable talking to somebody or sharing. And I certainly understand that. Before it gets to that point feeling that there isn't a stigma and you can ask your best girlfriend like hey he kind of did this like should I look at it weird should I question it and just not feeling like women I think tend to feel is like am I going crazy am I too over like looking into this too much am I overanalyzing it's like no ask the questions this is your life exactly exactly.

And that's such a great question because it can manifest itself in so many different ways. I would say get your ducks in a row while quietly being compliant. So, you know, you know you're not happy. You know that the result or the reaction is going to be a big one. That's when you really start taking care of yourself and that's when you buckle down and you say, I, you know, I need to speak to this therapist. I need to involve my parents or if whoever your close circle of friends is and be vulnerable with your friends, you know, and find resources. I mean I have people have reached out to me and I of course like whenever somebody does I you can't be so involved in every single case but resources are huge if if it's a specific divorce attorney who is really fair and you know not money hungry but just wants to help people in this department or if it's like in the case of our third episode Carrie who's an amazing lawyer who really focuses on revenge porn and she that's like that is her thing she has a whole that's like her whole market and her whole client base is certain things. So, I think like asking for help, doing the research, and then having an exit plan and doing all of that very quietly so you don't blow everything up and face more violence.

Right. I mean, that's the thing about parents, too. They have their own stuff, right? That's tricky because I've known people who have been in really unhealthy relationships and kind of their daughter was living out the fantasy of the life the mom never had and she's like, 'Just stay. Just stay.' So, I think parents can be tricky. And again, I'm not a, you know, I'm not a licensed professional, but I think therapy, if you can afford it, is always the best option because they can everything is protected and they can give you really professional advice and steps. It's like you just need to have again I keep saying exit plan but a plan of action where you know that you're moving in the right direction but again and then look at our episode 4 where she was dead in 8 months you know so it's just even just that she was so almost comatose because she was being drugged every day I think it's just advocating for your mental physical health and emotional health and and going to the professionals who can provide that you know you can say I'm going to a a doctor depending on how controlling your situation is. You don't have to say a therapist. You can say, 'I'm going to the doctor.' But really just taking that first step because I think I always say people like, and even online, it's just ridiculous. People are like, 'Why did they stay? Why did they stay?' And it's like, if you open a door 10 times and you get punched in the face 10 times, you don't open the door. Yeah. But people don't understand that if you open the door 10 times and six of those times you're hugged and told, you know, love bombed and told that like you're amazing that you keep opening the door. And I think that that's like a very real way to put it. When people can't understand how someone can stay, they're like we're both probably incredibly optimistic people and I can see if you're optimistic, you're going to think that they're going to change especially they're going to tell you I'm never going to do it again. So like you almost I think naively want to believe it because you want the hope to be the new reality. Yes. And you're in this cycle in your brain like your brain neuron path needs to be interrupted because it it's like just believing it's in a cycle. And so I say anything that will get you out of the cycle. Anything like that will just get you out of that cycle so you can see the forest for the trees and someone can tell you this, this, and this. And then that again that's accountability, right? Then you're if you're speaking to a therapist, you're allowing more helpers into your life. Like the opportunity for someone to give you an ultimatum when you can't maybe give it to yourself of like if you don't leave this person, I'm actually going to report you to child protective services because you're putting your child in. It forces your hand a bit.

Exactly. Exactly. Not, you know, not tiptoeing about it. These people I mean these therapists are there for a reason being very open and honest upfront I mean they're expens it's it's expensive to have a therapy session and and you don't want to waste your time and so I always say to I have friends that are in situations like this and I tell her the good the bad and the ugly at the top, like don't we don't need like you're not married we're not going to te you're not going to te like you're not going to get into it and and see if they're the right one too right like so there's therapy and then there's good therapy And there's also such thing as bad therapist. Let's be real. If that's something that they are have the resources and if not try someone else but don't waste your time and money by being polite in the beginning. Just say you know lay it all on the table and let them understand the severity of the situation.

I mean, the hope is just that again, I want everyone to end with questions. Really question themselves, question the loved ones. I always say if you have I'm sure if you if I say right now and come up with three people that you feel like are not in balanced relationships that could be toxic, you can come up with them right away. See something, say something. It's not always our position unless you know if it's an acquaintance not really your position but like if it's a friend just have those conversations with them. Take them to coffee. Check in with your friends. I want that to be like a huge takeaway. And then B look at those little microaggressions in your own relationships and address them. I'm not saying I want to come in and blow up everyone's marriages, but girl kind of. But post divorce is fun. But I want I want there to be balance. Like, you know, there either so many instances where there are just small things that make the other person feel little that aren't addressed. Like maybe one you know, one person really is excited to cook for dinner or some dinner for someone and they're like, 'Oh, it's fine.' But they never really give them the validation. Or maybe it's like never really like always just kind of undermining in small ways. So, you know, I always say there's imbalance in every relationship. There's an imbalance socially. One person's usually more extroverted and more socially adept. There's an imbalance financially. One person always makes more money whether you want to admit it or not. There's an imbalance fertility wise like maybe one person really wants to have a baby the others finished. I didn't know fertility was abuse. Abuse was a thing before the show. There's always an imbalance and that's fine because that's actually just natural. But when it becomes an issue is when that imbalance is used as power or aggression against you. So, you know, if nothing else, if you're so happy in your range, but there's just one thing that you feel like could be a microaggression or a micro imbalance that doesn't make you feel good, that's also like on the very very smallest scale. Something I hope people take. You know, I'm not like even if you are in a really healthy relationship, there's always it's like that's why I love mental health and therapy because you can always biohack your brain, right? You can biohack your emotions. We do that all the time with our bodies, but like why are we not biohacking our happiness? Yeah, absolutely. So, like look for those little patterns and and and it doesn't just have to be marriage. It doesn't have to be like, you know, romantic relationships. It could be platonic. It can be a balanced friendship where you feel like you do an imbalanced friendship where you feel like you're always picking up the pieces for someone else and just have that conversation. Like all we have is each other and our community and conversation and with that it can be so powerful.

Exactly. Yeah. I think too for anybody who thinks that there are no microaggressions either or they're in a perfect relationship by watching this series, you are seeing just like you see on this podcast, other podcast, whatever. You're seeing all these different dynamics and relationships. So, it's also educating you on knowing what to look for in your friends, in your loved ones relationships so that you can be a source of strength for them even if they're not ready to reach out to you yet. Exactly. So I think there's anybody can learn from it and it's 100% and I hope like I I mean I hope that we're also looking within, right? So in doing the show I'm like I stopped I was like guys I think I'm a love bomber and they're like they're like okay but I was like wait I need to like talk to a my therapist and break this down because like if we're not looking inward something's wrong with like you know that's like the definition of narcissistic tendencies. But I really became I was like maybe I'm the problem it's me and I really felt like I needed to examine it. But again, you can need to feel that connection. You can like I will say I love you when I leave you. Like I love bomb everyone, but it's not like I just I just feel Well, you did hug me the moment you walked into the studio. Just kidding. I was just I was just plotting. No, but like you have to ask yourself, right? Like do I do certain things that my parents did? And and be aware because that really is is the key, too. So you can lead with vulnerability and and make sure that you're keeping your behavior in check.

I mean, again, I'm not a licensed professional, but I would say look, watch Toxic and see how things are presented and how differently it can end and really get on these people's Instagrams, on their TikToks, on their you know, follow people who have been through it and educate yourself. Like, this is your time. If you're not ready to leave, this is your time to gather evidence and information and present it to your I don't want to say perpetrator if they haven't done anything yet, but present it to your partner in a way that really tests where they are in that where they lie. Like I think everything is on a spectrum of everything. And so you know, present certain ideas to them, watch a show, watch an episode of any true crime together, see how their responses to that. And I think it's really interesting because a lot of true crime consumers, their partner doesn't like to watch with them. And in Kelly Setliff's case in episode one, he said when he was trying to kill her, he said, 'Thank God you watch so much Investigation Discovery because now I know how to make it look like you tried to murder me.' Oh my god. And he literally quoted that because she had watched so much. So, I think really put yourself in situations or dynamics where their colors are revealed, whether it's a dinner party with a friend that you've confided in and say like, 'When this came up, did you see this?' You know, I think it's just that if you're not ready, it's just that that's kind of the stage of information gathering.

Exactly. And know that you're not alone. I mean, the statistics are staggering. It is shocking how many people, but by the way, have come out on the other side in really healthy relationships and loving relationships with more tools than they would have ever had. So, I don't want everyone to think it's a death sentence because it's really not. But you have to do the work and you have to leave. And I think that's the hardest thing is because they just feel like they so they want to be loved, right? It just feels hard. It feels so hard to say I'm leaving someone who loves me 60% of the time and makes these promises to be alone. And I think that's another thing that's like our society needs to change to be alone. Do the work like love yourself. Figure out exactly who you are. You do not need another person period. Like the construct of marriage was created when people died at the age of 30 and got married at 13. Like right. And we had they had kids to work on their farm. Like no, this this lie that Disney movies has told us and that you know these dating magazines have told us like no you don't need to be with anyone to be happy. You don't need kids to be happy. Just be happy with yourself inward.

We have two. Yes. It's a two-part about the same person. It's I Oh, I don't know if you saw Bad Bee, but that man has been on the run for 9 years and and yeah, we find him.

Yes, of course. I am Elizabeth Chambers on Instagram and then Toxic is every Monday night on ID and then we're also streaming on Max. So, go binge on Max and then catch episodes, new episodes on Mondays.

Okay. Thank you.