CEOInterviews.AIGSP 03: ALEX HADJIPATERAS

K

Kelly0:05

Hi, I'm Kelly and this is the third episode of the Greek shipping podcast. Today I have a very special guest with me, Mr. Alex Hadjipateras, the chief operating officer at Dorian LPG. Alex, hi. Welcome.

A

Alexander Hadjipateras0:17

Thank you. I'm really glad to be here.

K

Kelly0:19

Thank you for accepting my invitation.

A

Alexander Hadjipateras0:21

Thanks, Kelly. I'm eager to have these type of discussions and give a little bit back, share some insights. I think it's a more visual, audio sort of way to speak about our industry and teach the younger generation.

K

Kelly0:36

Exactly. And this is a podcast, so we have a video option as well. So thank you for accepting my invitation. I wanted to ask about you and shipping. How did you start?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras0:51

Well, I grew up in a shipping family. So even at a young age, I was very conscious about shipping and stories about the cycles in shipping, both the good periods and the bad periods. And then when I was 21, I decided to go work outside of the industry for a few years in an advertising company in California. And I had an opportunity to go at the age of 26 to South Korea to a naming ceremony for a very large crude oil carrier. It kind of brought back some of the romance of the industry to me, and I decided at that point that I would like to step into shipping. The urge came back to me to move into shipping and try to build a career there.

K

Kelly1:31

What was this ceremony? I don't know if it was just this, but... At what age? 26? So you were working in the advertising industry for 5 years.

A

Alexander Hadjipateras1:43

Yes.

K

Kelly1:44

How was that experience?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras1:46

It was very nice. It was a lot of younger people. It was almost like a consulting role. We were trying to get clients and help them with their digitalization plans, web design, mobile applications. Being in San Francisco, California was very relevant to what was going on at that time with startups in Silicon Valley. So I enjoyed it in terms of personal development.

K

Kelly2:11

Does that have any relation with shipping or not?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras2:16

It's totally irrelevant. As shipping has embraced things like social media and ways to connect with our customers differently, especially companies that are maybe more B2C, for example cruise companies or container companies, but also now B2B companies, it helped me have a little bit more appreciation for the technical aspect and also the user experience. At that job, we were very focused on usability and user experience. We actually even employed anthropologists to look at how people were using technical applications to make them as seamless and intuitive as possible.

K

Kelly2:48

Interesting. Very different though. Which one do you like most?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras2:54

I'm very happy in my current role. Life takes you in a different direction sometimes, and I'm able to apply what I learned there into shipping now. I really love the personal aspect of shipping and the fact that it deals with macroeconomic factors, but you can also go visit the vessels, touch them, speak with people, and I feel very interconnected.

K

Kelly3:20

Excellent. What about your studies? What did you study?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras3:23

I studied in Washington DC and my major was history. I actually started as a Mandarin Chinese major.

K

Kelly3:32

Awesome. How come?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras3:34

I had this vision that China would be the place of the future, which was right, but what wasn't right was my aptitude for learning the language.

K

Kelly3:44

Can you speak Chinese?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras3:45

No. I had a really nice time doing Chinese. I learned about the culture. But after a year, I stopped. Being in Washington at Georgetown, history was something I was very interested in, in particular World War II and afterwards. So that's where I focused my contemporary history. The school did have a very good core curriculum, so we studied things like statistics, computer science. The first two years were almost laid out that way, and then the last two years we could specialize. History really taught me about writing and how to defend an argument and critical thinking, which came in very handy at the advertising company.

K

Kelly4:23

I see. And what about shipping? Is that useful for shipping?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras4:26

With shipping, it helped me in terms of dealing with customers a little bit with vetting and how we respond to vetting questions. Of course, we have financial calculations we're doing in shipping that are different, and charter negotiations. But in terms of how we respond to customers and their requests, yes.

K

Kelly4:48

And does history also help you with negotiations in shipping politics maybe?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras4:52

Yes. Maybe appreciating all these different cultures because we work in an industry where we build ships in Asia mostly, and we can have customers from South America or shipping things all around the world. Being sensitive to those different cultures and knowing why perhaps the Japanese or the South Koreans have issues with the Japanese based on the history there, that's very helpful.

K

Kelly5:18

So you were more able to understand the connection between different nations.

A

Alexander Hadjipateras5:22

Or just have an awareness, I would say.

K

Kelly5:25

Which is your favorite culture?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras5:28

I feel American, even though I was born in the UK. I spent 12 years there. I like the fact that in America, it's a melting pot of different nationalities and cultures. Now being in Greece for 13 years, I've gotten closer to my roots. In a way, I felt more Greek outside of Greece than I do in Greece.

K

Kelly5:54

Interesting. And do you know Greek?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras5:57

I can speak at an intermediate level.

K

Kelly6:00

And you think in English, right? You don't think in Greek?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras6:04

Yes.

K

Kelly6:06

Interesting. So you're cosmopolitan. You're a cosmopolitan. Dorian LPG because you are the COO at Dorian. What is your company about?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras6:13

Dorian LPG is a shipping company. We focus entirely on the shipping of a product. We don't do any trading, and we focus on the liquefied petroleum gas segment, which means propane and butane. Propane and butane are byproducts of crude oil and natural gas processing. They're produced as a byproduct, not individually.

K

Kelly6:39

So your ports of loading are always refineries, right?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras6:42

Our ports of loading are terminals. We deliver sometimes to refineries. We load about 50% of the time out of the US. The US expansion has been a big topic in our industry and has helped the previous few years have a very strong market. Propane and butane are carried either under pressurized containers or under refrigeration. We're not as cool as LNG, but it's still cooled cargo. It's minus about 40 or minus 38 for butane, whereas LNG is minus 100 something. The bigger ships that we manage have a reliquefaction plant on the mid deck, which is almost like running compressors all the time, and the cargo is circulating through and being sprayed back into the tanks. It's a complicated ship, a specialized segment, but it's part of the clean energy transition. LPG is a cleaner fuel.

K

Kelly7:40

Those vessels use their cargo for propulsion, right?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras7:43

All new LPG vessels have LPG as fuel as an option, which means they run on LPG when it's priced better. The majority of the fleet we have, built in 2015-16, are eco ships, but they're not running on LPG. We do now have one LPG fuel ship and one on order. The next generation will be using their cargo as fuel.

K

Kelly8:07

Yes, these are very expensive vessels, aren't they?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras8:10

They can range anywhere from 68 million to 120 million in the last 10 years or so, compared to an Aframax tanker might be 60-70 million, a VLCC around 110 million. They're expensive and they're very profitable for the shipyards, which means that sometimes a lot of them are built, which is one of the challenges in our industry: oversupply.

K

Kelly8:39

Very interesting. And how do you feel that you move a very large amount of the energy around the world?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras8:44

I think it's really nice when you see a country like India that is using LPG and the government has programs around LPG to help a population move away from biomass and charcoal and try to clean the air. It's great to play a role in that transition. We also deliver to China, our biggest endpoint customer, and there it's going more into PDH facilities where they're making different polypropylenes and propylene. I think it's great, and you see how the product is delivered and then how it's used. After it gets delivered, it's put in a canister. Every year there's a world LPG congress that shows safety at the home level to make sure there are no concerns about explosions or off-market pieces in the canister. The industry focuses very much on making that safer and ensuring people can use it safely.

K

Kelly9:45

Have you experienced personally any major accidents in your career?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras9:50

I think the LPG segment and gas shipping is much safer than people expect. When we first went into it, some of my friends said, 'Oh, aren't you afraid of explosions?' Even with LPG as fuel, when we would present how that's used, there are so many safety measures and protocols to make sure that if anything happens, there are double, triple alarms. Shipping as an industry still has incidents and accidents more than we'd like to aim for zero. It is a difficult industry; ships operate in harsh weather conditions, but every year there's more and more focus on safety.

K

Kelly10:32

What about employee, the seafarers' training?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras10:36

The human element and the shortage of seafarers is a big focus for us. We focus very much on year in rank. We want to promote people, but not too quickly into a role they might not be ready for. Some of our customers ask about how many years they have been in a specific role. Training and the quality of the academies, be it Greece or other places, is paramount. We use Eastern European crew and Filipino crew. Historically, we had worked with Greek crew in the predecessor days.

K

Kelly11:14

How would you characterize the Greek seafarers?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras11:16

I would say the Greek seafarers are very decisive. These are cliches, but very good in urgent situations. Most of the Greek crew I had worked with were already superintendents in the office, so they were port captains. The other really good thing about Greek crew is they kept that personal connection. They could relate immediately to a seafarer and the life at sea. A lot of the newer professionals are very technically sound, but maybe they don't have the same sailing experience. Sometimes when we have seminars or speak with our crew, that's a bridge we have to overcome: the fact that they're at sea traveling around the world and we're back in an office trying to give guidance. There is this dynamic, a little bit like in a restaurant where you have the back kitchen and the front staff. You want to make sure you don't have animosity.

K

Kelly12:09

All right. Thank you. I've noticed your company site and I observed that there are a lot of vessels starting with a C. Their name starts with a C. Is there a story behind that? A reasoning?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras12:23

Other than the fact that it's very confusing for our purchasing department, we try to have a consistent naming pattern. There is this sort of symmetry with every vessel, even the newest vessel starting with C. We've done this historically. When the prior private company was running oil tankers, every ship was named after a US state: Hawaii, Oklahoma, New York, Indiana. When we had some smaller pressurized vessels, all the ships were named after hilly regions in the UK: Cheviet, Chilton, Grenon. For the chartering brokers and the people, it gives, 'Okay, that's a Dorian ship' starting with a C. Other people use racehorses or planet names. We just have C. Honestly, I have no idea. I think it's something that was chosen and I wasn't part of that. Captain Marcos was the first gas carrier, and that was a great-grandfather of mine. Maybe it was because that started with a C, although it was 'Captain' then. Then it was Captain Nicholas and Captain John, and there were not enough captains to go around, so they started naming them Constellation or Cougar or whatever.

K

Kelly13:49

What is your preferred name, the name of a vessel that you still remember but not necessarily belonging to your company? The most interesting vessel name that you've heard.

A

Alexander Hadjipateras14:02

That's a really good question. I love Corvette, which is one of the vessels we have, because I also love cars. I love Crests because that's a vessel my wife christened, so I consider that a lucky vessel. One of my first jobs in shipping was doing some chartering on the Aframax side, so I was chartering a ship called the Oklahoma. Because I did some fixtures with her, that's a name I remember.

K

Kelly14:37

Okay. Why do you like cars?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras14:42

I just loved cars growing up. I love watching cars and car racing. My father loved cars.

K

Kelly14:53

What kind of cars do you like?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras14:55

I love Italian cars. I love reading about cars. I did some race training. I went in Connecticut to a school called the Skip Barber Racing School where you race in Formula 4 cars, very small cars, and that was fun. You learn how to go on the corners and stuff like that.

K

Kelly15:17

I've tried F2 in Dubai last year. That's nice. And desert buggy cars. That was really fun with the kids. My son loves motorbikes.

A

Alexander Hadjipateras15:30

That's dangerous. I respect them, but I prefer four wheels.

K

Kelly15:36

Why do you respect them?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras15:38

Because they can be very dangerous. As I'm sure cars can be.

K

Kelly15:42

All right. What other hobbies do you have?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras15:45

I love skiing. It's my best mountain skiing. I just came back from Japan where I had a chance to fulfill a dream and go skiing in Hokkaido.

K

Kelly15:55

Was it nice?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras15:56

It was very beautiful. The snow was beautiful. It was great to see a different culture. I love mixed martial arts. We were talking about that a little bit earlier.

K

Kelly16:06

Why do you like martial arts?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras16:10

I love the fact that it's a sport where you exert adrenaline, but you're also learning a technical thing. You keep improving your technical aspects, and there are different rules. As we grow and evolve, it's nice to have this kind of switch off and try something new. It keeps your mind fresh.

K

Kelly16:31

From my experience with karate, I also realized that there is something spiritual under that. 100%. What do you think about that?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras16:38

I had started with kickboxing, and my teacher was also teaching children six, seven, eight. The respect you have, the way you bow at the end of a lesson and thank the teacher, even the rules in terms of building up through the belts. I think it's a wonderful thing to teach respect and discipline.

K

Kelly16:56

Discipline. Yes, of course. Let's go back to the industry now.

A

Alexander Hadjipateras17:00

Sure.

K

Kelly17:02

What is your opinion about technology and AI? Is that a threat or an opportunity for shipping?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras17:10

I think it's a big opportunity. Many startups have raised financing around using AI. From a ship operations perspective, we're very focused on the user experience that I talked about in the beginning. We want to work with companies that are testing new technologies for aspects that make sense for our business. Sometimes we meet with startups who promise the world, but for our daily jobs in terms of interacting with the vessels, we maybe don't want to instant message with the captain every three minutes because we want to keep situational awareness on the vessel. We want our captains to have an awareness of the environment while enhancing the way we communicate. We're selective about picking the companies we work with and then growing with them. To give a specific example, we work with a company in Denmark on sensors on board the vessels. We have many sensors on the vessel. We collect a lot of data and analytics from there.

K

Kelly18:33

So you create information out of those data.

A

Alexander Hadjipateras18:35

We look at trends. We're always comparing the benchmarks to see where the baselines are, where some vessels are underperforming or overperforming. We started with a step-up approach. We didn't put sensors everywhere in the beginning. We started to clean the data to make sure the data we had was accurate. Whatever comes in has to be clean so that you can make the right interpretation. We worked very closely with the data scientists to review the data and make sure there are no outliers.

K

Kelly19:05

Interesting. What is your favorite technology in shipping right now?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras19:10

I really admire the move towards more automation and remote maintenance, meaning the way we can tackle more issues from the office. Many manufacturers now have a window into the ship. To take the car example, almost like with a Formula 1 car where you can hook a laptop up to the car and make changes through that. Different providers now give you a window. We can see in the engine room, see the different temperatures, and try to tackle those problems from the office side. Not always, but that was very helpful during COVID when there was less travel. I would say automation, and then Starlink has been a game changer in terms of allowing our ships and our crew to communicate more freely back with their families and for us to do Teams calls with the vessels or do video calls and change the way we interface. It doesn't mean we don't visit and sail with a vessel, but it provides a closer link.

K

Kelly20:14

Very interesting. Gives more options. 100% options. What about the human element though? Is it still important in shipping?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras20:22

Yes. I think the human element, with social media on board the vessels, we're very conscious of mental well-being as it relates to the human element. To go back a little bit, human element for me means training seafarers. With all these new technologies, you're going to have somebody on board the vessel who's usually going into the engine room, operating them. We have some cargoes that can be dangerous. Maybe there'll be some fuels in the future like ammonia that could be toxic. There's a human element aspect of that. There's a human element in terms of how we get seafarers to man the ships of the future even if there is more automation. And then the human side of somebody sailing at sea has much more communication home, but their problems from their house maybe follow them to the vessel. Whereas if you rewind 30-40 years, someone would go to sea for a longer contract, but they leave the family life there, go to a job, and return. Now somebody maybe has issues in the relationship or is worried about their children, and they're getting real-time beaming of this information, and that can be very challenging. We're very sensitive to that part of the human aspect.

K

Kelly21:35

What about female seafarers? Do you trust them? Do you have female seafarers?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras21:42

We have female seafarers. We've made a big point of opening up doors as much as possible to make a supportive environment for all genders at sea. We participated with the Global Maritime Forum in something called the All Aboard Alliance, which tries to provide a framework for female seafarers to go to sea, feel comfortable, and be equal with everyone. We were part of a pilot vessel program where we picked one vessel and had 24/7 internet connection. We recorded all the feedback and data from that vessel. All of the seafarers were asked specific questions sent to their mobile phones, and they answered back anonymously. That data was collected. Some of the key elements were that there should always be a buddy system, not one female seafarer, but two, three, four. In that case, it was four mentors with ranks officers. We have now officers and cadets. You want to have a cadet and an officer together for mentorship.

K

Kelly22:55

What kind of nationalities?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras22:57

Turkish, believe it or not. We also had Croatian and Filipino female seafarers.

K

Kelly23:08

Very interesting. And what about the results of this pilot study?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras23:11

The results were positive. Some of the aspects were focusing on having the right personal protective equipment suited to both a female body and a male body, having proper separation in the laundry rooms, dealing with any issues around innuendo or things that stepped over the lines, and training the crew. Many of our crew members, male or female, are excellent managers. I've met captains who I think could be CEOs of companies. They don't care about nationality. They're just looking to operate the ship safely and have people return home after their contract.

K

Kelly23:53

All right. Very nice. I'm proud of that initiative. Tell about the most interesting story that you on board that you've heard or experienced yourself.

A

Alexander Hadjipateras24:07

Some great stories are like we have seafarers who want to start a family. At this time, they were maybe sailing for longer contracts, so their wife goes on board and they try to build a family by being on board together. It worked. We actually expanded the bed size because our Croatian seafarers were so tall that we needed longer beds. Other stories are ship rescues. Outside of Florida, we've picked up refugees from Cuba trying to get to the United States. In Italy or European waters, we've picked up different people. All merchant ships play a role in helping society.

K

Kelly24:54

Good. I have a question from a student of mine. Every time I have a recording, I ask my students to tell me questions about my next speaker, and I pick the one that I like most. So now I have a question from my student Ben. He's from Tennessee, United States. Any piracy cases in one of your vessels?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras25:22

That's a good question. For the last five or six years, we've had armed guards. Since we put armed guards on board the vessel, we've had zero cases. Keep in mind, very large gas carriers have a high freeboard, which means they're a little more difficult to scale. But we have had incidents where we've transited in the Gulf of Aden and been followed by boats that potentially were pirate boats, and we've had to do some evasive maneuvering or turn off the AIS. We work very closely with our customers to share knowledge there, and we participate with security services.

K

Kelly26:10

How many guards?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras26:12

I think it's three, and they're ex-special forces. They have weapons which we hope they never use, but they have them in a briefcase on board the vessel. Just the fact that they're there is a great deterrent.

K

Kelly26:28

How did the other seafarers feel about that?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras26:32

It was an education in the beginning because of rules of engagement. You have a captain on board who's in command of the vessel, but then you have ex-paramilitary troops come on. You have to be very clear on who was in charge, where they're standing. With time, there became a good understanding between the two, and our crew felt safer. Again, it was a deterrent.

K

Kelly26:59

Which shipping trend excites you the most right now? Is it technology?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras27:04

I think the trend that excites me but is also daunting is decarbonization.

K

Kelly27:11

Why?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras27:13

On a human level, aside from shipping, it's so important for all of us and our children and grandchildren. From the technology side, how ships are being built and what fuels they'll use, and carbon capture, I think it's another huge change in our industry. In the short term, there doesn't seem to be any panacea. There are different solutions in the medium term: LNG fuel ready, methane, people looking at ammonia. But there isn't something you can go to right now that is price competitive and meets the targets we need to get to.

K

Kelly27:55

What is your favorite alternative fuel?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras27:58

We believe in burning the fuels that we carry, like LPG as a stepping stone. Apart from that, I don't have a personal favorite. We're still studying ammonia or even nuclear, something that's talked about.

K

Kelly28:18

Do you believe in nuclear power?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras28:20

I'm aware of the political risks around it, but yes, in the longer term, I do believe in it. I'm not a technical person by nature, but it's something we talk about and I think could have viability. We as a company have invested in a carbon capture company. I think carbon capture will be part of that bridge solution to achieve the target. Many ships will have to capture their carbon, offload that, and that will be a stepping stone to reaching some of the environmental targets.

K

Kelly28:54

So all these things are part of your company's values or mission or something?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras28:58

Our mission is to provide safe, reliable, trouble-free, and clean transportation services. 'Clean' is something we added because of decarbonization and to emphasize to the world that we want to evolve into that. We're looking at decarbonization as part of the goal for the company, but it has to make commercial sense. We have to work with our customers to get there. The shipyards tend to be laggards, and there are two main engine manufacturers. We're pushing towards having cleaner fuels and more modern engines, but it also requires a customer like Shell or Exxon to take a step towards that and support a ship owner to build a ship of the future. That handshake is very important and doesn't always happen.

K

Kelly30:00

What other elements belong to this mission of your company?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras30:06

We're very focused on safety at sea. First and foremost, we want to provide a safe environment for our crews. We want to provide good customer service. Shipping is a cyclical industry, but our biggest asset is our name. It takes many years to build that reputation, and it's very easy to lose it. Customer satisfaction is always important: being available and responding quickly to customer needs. Our customers may be depending on global macro factors. They can load a ship and have three options where to discharge. It might be Saturday afternoon, and they need a response from the operator to go back to the trader. When we've got good feedback, it's when we respond quickly and can help understand our customers' needs. Also, correcting when we are audited frequently and get different observations. How we respond to those, how we communicate back, being open about incidents. Everybody has certain incidents that happen to them. We want to be transparent for the benefit of the industry as well. Responsiveness and transparency are very important.

K

Kelly31:28

Do you visit vessels often?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras31:32

Not as much as I would like. In the beginning of my career, I was going very often, sailing and going to all the dry dockings. Now I go a few times a year, but I would like to increase that. It's a KPI for me because it's very valuable. I travel so much, but I really want to get on board the vessels.

K

Kelly31:50

Why is it valuable?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras31:53

Because you're visiting someone in their working environment. You see the asset that you're managing. There are little details you can look for working around the engine room, walking around the deck, seeing condition. People are proud. We do many seafarer seminars, at least two a year, and you get a way to interact with people, but it's completely different seeing someone there than seeing them at their home for three months.

K

Kelly32:16

Do you have a good connection with your seafarers?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras32:19

I think so. I'm always emphasizing the fact that we had relatives who went to sea. We respect the challenges they face at sea. There's always a line, and I respect that line. I can never put myself in their shoes. I can just try to empathize. I haven't sailed for four or five years. I try to tell them that we're here as service providers to them to make their life as easy as possible until they return home.

K

Kelly32:46

Thank you. Which is your favorite port?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras32:52

One of the fun ports I visited is in France outside Marseilles in La Harve because all of the ships that went there would write their name on the dock. It's not graffiti, but you see different colors. That was something fun.

K

Kelly33:13

Interesting. And in terms of efficient operations, which is the best port according to you?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras33:18

I think Houston in the United States is very efficient because they're able to get the vessels in and out within a 24-hour turnaround, and the loading is quick. Sometimes, if I'm visiting a vessel, I might want to go to a different port where it's not as efficient because it gives me more time to speak with the crew. Turkey, for example, is slower. It might take two or three days because the loading rate is slower, but that also allows me to spend time with the crew in a more relaxed environment. Most ports now have improved efficiencies.

K

Kelly33:58

Do you like the port state control?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras34:02

I like when we don't get any observations from port state control. I understand the role of port state control. Two or three times a week, we're reviewing with our team how we're doing on port state control. It's part of our industry, so I respect the role of port state control.

K

Kelly34:21

Thank you. You travel a lot, right?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras34:24

Yes.

K

Kelly34:26

Which is your favorite destination?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras34:28

I love Japan, which I just came back from. I've really grown to enjoy visiting the Middle East. Qatar is a big gas producer, and I've spent some time there. We've done some repairs in Ras Laffan. I think it's really nice to go places where there's a shipping history. Norway is a really nice place to visit. When you go there, people understand the industry, the coastal side of shipping, and the offshore segment as well. In the US, in Houston, they understand energy. It's an energy capital. Where I grew up outside New York, shipping was something people associated with DHL or FedEx. It's not as mature an industry. I would say Japan and honestly, I've traveled all around China too, and I really enjoyed that.

K

Kelly35:24

You like Asia, right?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras35:26

I like Asia.

K

Kelly35:28

Me too. Thank you. What's the best piece of advice that you've been given?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras35:36

When I moved into shipping, my dad wrote me a letter about how the ships and the propellers are working 24 hours, 7 days a week, and to always remember that. We go home sometimes at Christmas, New Year's, and somebody is working in a terminal doing a job away from their family. You're like a doctor on call. You always have to be cognizant that the ships are there and this job is 24/7. Sometimes there are quiet periods where you try to recharge your batteries, but you have to be sensitive to that aspect. Another very good lesson I got was about the crises that have happened. In the early '70s with the oil embargo, I remember stories of people walking here in Greece ship to ship because they were all laid up one next to the other. To remember that yes, you have great stories like Onassis or other key figures, but at the same time, there are many companies that had 100 ships and disappeared. You have to be very careful about the cycles. It's a highly cyclical business, and you should always try to maintain your leverage at a medium to low level and have a strong balance sheet.

K

Kelly36:48

Do you think that artificial intelligence could threaten people's jobs?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras36:56

I believe there will be a reduction in the number of seafarers on board the vessels and probably in the shipyards. In terms of how technology, we could look at the automotive industry and how many things are done by robotics. There is a trend now with maritime robotics as well. I like to think that people will be reskilled and retrained in other ways. As we deal with newer fuels that are maybe more toxic like ammonia, I would only want to go on a ship that was ammonia fueled if the engine room was mostly unmanned or there were certain safeguards. Yes, I think people will be replaced, and I'm optimistic that there can be reskilling.

K

Kelly37:48

Do you believe in manless vessels with smart ports? Is that the future of the industry?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras37:54

I would say for coastal and ferries, it's probably already being tested in Northern Europe. Manless point A to point B for shipping where there are many uncertainties around where the cargoes will be delivered, maybe a reduction like the way airlines have autopilot but the pilot for landing standby. Definitely smart ports. Just-in-time arrival, quicker turnaround, cold ironing using power from the shore, these are key ways of the future that we can tackle some of the energy and decarbonization challenges.

K

Kelly38:39

What about the Internet of Things technology and the electronic bills of lading? What about that?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras38:44

I believe that blockchain and IoT, on paper, should be a great solution. Even on the chartering side, I still find it amusing that there's so much one-to-one personal communication. In a way, you could have a computer and an exchange, and cargo would pop up and you would have a negotiation. But still, there's very much a personal connection. The reason is that people are very sensitive about information and how it's shared and the speed of that information. With regard to the operational side, yes, IoT and smart technologies should help improve efficiencies. For the commercial side, maybe there'll still be that person you call. We see in the market that there's still a desire to have an intermediary to call and maybe keep something confidential. If something's on a platform, it's open to everyone, but if you can control the communication, you can be one step ahead of a competitor.

K

Kelly39:51

So you think that they are essential, they're an essential part of the industry. The ship brokers and chartering houses.

A

Alexander Hadjipateras39:58

Yes.

K

Kelly40:02

So you feel that personal relationships are still important for this industry?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras40:05

I absolutely feel this way. I had experience in technology and consulting, and I did a few internships at a film company in university. I feel that of all these industries, shipping still has the most personal connections. You can go to one of the most successful people in the industry, ask them for advice, and it's very open door policy. I don't feel that the egos in this industry are much smaller than those I've experienced in other industries.

K

Kelly40:37

What makes a successful person?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras40:40

Being able to take calculated risks. Of course, risk taker, but calculated risks. Being decisive and having a longer-term view. Longer term may mean some people have been very successful with asset play, and perhaps that's how they set up their operation. Try to understand the market, try to get a good entry point, but not wait for the perfect moment to enter.

K

Kelly41:12

So it's related to wisdom in a sense.

A

Alexander Hadjipateras41:15

It's respecting the cycles and trying to have a low entry point. It's very challenging when you buy a ship too expensively to recover that price. You have to have a good operation in the meantime to try to capture or wait until the market turns. Usually the market will turn, but you have to be patient and have a strong stomach to wait. I've seen that several times. We've done restructurings, refinancing, and then you could say, 'I give up,' and then a year later, the market turns completely and people forget about the bad times.

K

Kelly41:56

Which person do you admire?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras42:00

I respect my father, of course. In the industry, he started at 18 years old. He started Dorian at such a young age. He went into tankers. Historically, our family had been in the dry bulk business. I respect a lot of ship owners who give back to the community, who support students, all the ship owners in Greece who are working with the Greek flag and providing jobs. One of the biggest misconceptions about ship owners is that they come to Greece, don't pay taxes, and are all on their yachts smoking cigars. In reality, there's a whole ecosystem here with so many jobs around the industry that support it. It's wonderful to live in a place where you can say we're number one or top two in terms of ship owning and ship management.

K

Kelly42:53

Thank you for this answer. I feel proud as well. You've studied history. So which historical figure would you like to meet in person?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras43:04

I would like to meet, and perhaps it's not the most obvious answer, but one of my first jobs was spending two months in South Korea at Hyundai Heavy Industries. I was always fascinated by the picture they had there of the founder of Hyundai Group on a huge propeller standing there with his helmet. His history was fascinating. He was from North Korea, son of peasant farmers. He crossed the border and worked different odd jobs in construction and finally became a rice trader. His name is Chairman Chung. He built the Hyundai construction group and subsequently built the Hyundai shipyard from scratch, taking two VLCC orders from a Greek company called Sun Enterprises, the Livanos family. I'm fascinated by that story.

K

Kelly43:56

So you're fascinated by becoming stories, right? Becoming someone.

A

Alexander Hadjipateras44:01

Yes. Not only did he build a company, but he helped shift the country of South Korea towards becoming a leader in shipbuilding. I really admire that.

K

Kelly44:13

Excellent. And last question from me, Alex. Today I want to give some advice to my students who will start in the near future in this industry.

A

Alexander Hadjipateras44:20

I think that relationships are really important. It's wonderful that they can learn from a theoretical and technical side about the ships, about all different types of ships, but they should network, try to be part of industry groups, take advantage of being here in Athens. I think it's important that they live in Athens. There are many opportunities. Through osmosis, you can get access to many employers. Try to look at the essence of shipping and go beyond the headlines. Understand what the service provides. You were having a class earlier and talking about the role of container shipping, that someone can take one small product and ship it many miles easily that they couldn't do before when it was just tramp shipping. Look at how we protect the cargoes on board and keep the ships safe and try to protect the environment. Look at it holistically and then find which part of the business they like. I always think it's good to start in operations, or if they're technical, they could go the technical side.

K

Kelly45:46

Why do you say that?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras45:48

If you start in operations, assuming you want to go on the commercial side, you understand the customer. Everybody's attracted by the commercial. Everyone loves the negotiation and charter party or sale and purchase. But if you start with operations, you understand the customer, how the cargoes are moved, bills of lading or letters of credit. Those are all applicable as you move up in your career and build knowledge. You work closely with the crew, especially if you start in operations, you're working very closely with the captain and chief engineer. Build your experience, network, keep abreast of the different changes. Of course, there's a glamour to shipping, but also look behind the scenes.

K

Kelly46:36

Should they give emphasis to degrees? Do you give emphasis in degrees?

A

Alexander Hadjipateras46:42

We do. We respect both experience at sea and degrees. I think the degrees help us as we plan the strategy going forward. I come having a degree. We want people who have a certain level of studies. We look at each person individually, but yes, degrees are very important in terms of our customers.

K

Kelly47:07

Thank you, Alex. Thank you very much for this very interesting discussion. I enjoyed it a lot. I hope you enjoyed it as well. Thank you for joining us, and until next time, we love shipping.

GSP 03: ALEX HADJIPATERAS

About Alexander Hadjipateras