Hello everyone. You are listening to She Leads with Kari. And in this show, we talk to the absolute best, brightest, and yes, badass leaders. I'm your host, Kari Malatski. Hello everyone. I'm incredibly excited to welcome today's guest, Michelle Zatlin. Michelle is the co-founder of Cloudflare, the leading connectivity cloud company that blocks billions of threats online for its customers every day. Michelle along with her co-founders has scaled the company from a Harvard Business School project to integral internet infrastructure that keeps the world safe and secure online operating 20% of the global web. Let that sink in. By the way, Cloudflare is used by about 20% of all websites on the internet for web security services, blocking 247 billion cyber attacks every single day. Michelle is the only female founder currently running a public company valued over $60 billion, let alone a cyber security company. She recently led Cloudflare to its first billion dollars in annual revenue and under her leadership has brought in 36% of the Fortune 500 as paying customers, leading a team of over 4,000 employees around the world. In September, Cloudflare will celebrate a big milestone, its 15-year anniversary. Michelle earned her bachelor's degree from McGill University in chemistry and business before receiving her MBA from Harvard Business School. Michelle, it is such an honor. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. Welcome.
Thank you so much. And thank you for all that such a kind introduction, Carly. And yeah, I'm excited for our conversation.
Me, too. So, Michelle, what I love to do and how I honestly get started with every episode is I want to know about 10-year-old Michelle, your childhood. From what I know, you grew up in a small town in Canada called Saskatchewan. I might be butchering that, but tell me a little bit about your childhood. What kind of kid were you?
Yes. Yeah. No, you did a good job. You're so far, Carly, really good with words. So, great job. I am from Saskatchewan. It's the prairie part of Canada, and I was from a close-knit family. I'm the middle child of three sisters, so a little bit of the peacekeeper. I was very into sports. Did figure skating. It's very cold. We have long winters where I grew up. So, you do a lot of winter sports during the winters and then a lot of different sports in the summer, whether it was volleyball or soccer or you name it, tennis. I did a lot of piano. I was a very scheduled kid. Like I went to school and after school my mom and dad had me in a lot of different programs and activities to make sure that I was building skills and meeting people and growing as a human being. And so feel really lucky to be from my family. The other thing is my grandparents were farmers and so homecooked food was a big deal in my family. Like farm to table is how I grew up every single day. We always had a garden in the backyard. My mom was always picking lettuce in the summer, making salads. And so to this day, that stays with me. My favorite thing to do today is to go to the farmers market to cook a meal. And so I think it really is from this 10-year-old Michelle that you just asked me about.
That's amazing. And looking back at your childhood, were there any signs of who you are today that would lead to where you are today of being a founder of a big company? Any signs that kind of lead to that?
Probably better question for my parents than me, but you know, as I'm still close to my parents and I think that I was someone who was a very capable 10-year-old or child, always striving for more, curious, and I think those were good attributes into, you know, today running as a leader. The other thing is I was able to work with lots of different people both as a child and then today. And I think when you are running a large organization like Cloudflare today, it's over 4,000 people, you have to work together. And actually, that's my favorite part of my job. I love working with folks. And I think it's one of the great stories in tech or business that maybe doesn't get told enough is actually I spend so much of my day partnering internally with teams. And I love that. That's like where my happy place is. And I think it's, you know, I think back to when I was captain of my basketball team and being on a team and winning together, like I unfortunately I'm not going to play in the NBA. I don't have those skills. However, like at work, I feel like I get to help build teams and win as a team and lead these teams. And so a lot of the aspects that I loved as a child that I see today. And so I think there were moments like that. But you know there's also you had no idea like it's just I think back to even in my 25 or 30, I never thought this exactly. I didn't think it wasn't possible. I just didn't spend very much time thinking about it. So I think like if there's a listener being like well I never think about that. Like neither did I. That wasn't what I was spending my day thinking about. It just more this opportunity presented itself and I fell in love with being like I have to see where this goes. And it kept kind of opening up more and more pathways, which by the way is so fascinating to me cuz you're right. There are these like two archetypes, if you will. One is the founder from day zero, right? Like they're born to be a founder. They can't really work for anyone else. They're meant to do that versus someone else kind of how you described where the opportunity presented itself and one thing led to another and you, you know, you're leading this huge company.
So, we're going to get into that. We'll get into more details, but you end up going to McGill. So you stay in Canada and you decide to study chemistry and business, right? So in my mind, my mind goes to, you know, medicine, premed. How were you thinking about your career at that stage in life in college?
Yes. Well, so where I grew up, most people went to the university in the province. And so it was actually a big deal that I would have left the province to go to McGill. And I remember talking to, you know, a community member and another dad of one of my friends and I remember he said, 'Well, why are you going to McGill University?' And I said, 'Well, what are you going to study?' And I said, 'I'm going to study chemistry.' He's like, 'Don't they have chemistry at the University of Saskatchewan?' I'm like, 'No, they do.' He's like, 'Well, then why are you going all the way there for the program here?' Which is a totally fair question. And so, I think that that was a totally fair question. My parents had a perspective of you can always come home, but you need to go see the world. You need to go see more of the world and you can always come back if you want. And again, I'm lucky to have parents who had that perspective. So, I went to McGill and you know, when I was a teenager, I loved science. I loved math. Like I really did love those subjects a lot at school. I excelled at them. I did all the extra programs you could think of. And I really thought I was going to be a doctor and I really wanted to be a doctor because I wanted to help people and it's, you know, intellectually very interesting. And so those were what I really kind of set out to do. And so studying chemistry was a great path to be able to do that. And I also think chemistry answers most of the questions in the world which I found very interesting. And it was interesting though that as I did my schooling, I always kept saying every time like at the end of the class the professor, okay, this is a really interesting concept. How does it get applied practically in the real world or in industry? And that was something that was especially in the early part of my college degree. There wasn't a lot of good answers. It was really much the theoretical pieces of it and this thing like how do you apply it practically now there was a lot of gaps and then I ended up going to do like a summer program with some doctors and a research project. It actually ended up winning awards. It was like a big deal, very big success and I spent this whole summer in the hospital with these three doctors. It was amazing but I didn't love it. Like I didn't love it and I kind of was like oh my god I just want awards for this but I'm not like I could tell that I didn't love it. And so I started to for the first time question, do I really want to be a doctor? And for years that's what I thought. That's what I told myself. Like my parents told their friends why we have Michelle's premed. And all of a sudden I'm like, well, I'm not sure I want to do that. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Well, what do you want to do instead? And I had no idea cuz I had been on this path to be a doctor. Like I just everything in my free time. I didn't even know what the other options were. And so I started to expand the scope and I minored in business. And even that was like so eye opening. I learned all these new things that I didn't know before and lingo and language and types of people that were very different than my science classes that I had to interact with and it kind of just expanded my horizons. Fast forward, I ended up falling in love with technology. I decided not to go to med school. So, there was a very happy ending to the story, but in the moment it was not clear. And when I called my parents to be like, 'Hey, I'm not sure I'm going to apply to med school right after college.' My parents were like, 'Excuse me? What? What are you going to do?' And I'm like, 'I'm going to get a job.' They're like, 'Doing what?' I was like, I have no idea. I'm going to figure it out.
No, that's I think what I love about that story. One, it's actually quite unique in that you were getting external positive affirmations, right? Like you were doing well. There was proof to show you that, like, you know what, you could actually be an excellent professional in medicine and here you're tapping into your own, you know, psyche of saying like, okay, but do I love it? Am I getting energy from it? which is quite hard then to take that step you know because I feel like in college the mindset is like am I just on the right path? Am I going to have security in my job? So how did you like going deeper into that mentality in that moment of saying you know what I'm actually going to tell my parents I'm not doing medicine. I'm going to figure it out as it goes. How did you navigate that? Did you talk to mentors? Did you just do research on your own? What was that process like for you?
That would have both been good two good ideas for me. I did neither of those. That would have been a really good idea. I should have called you back then. I did not do either of those things. You know, of course I think friends are so important at that point in your life. So I did talk to friends, but my friends were my peers at school, so they didn't really know, you know, you're not as blind leading the blind.
Yes. Exactly. So sometimes talking to your friends makes you feel better, but you actually don't always get the best advice, I would say.
So it's not something you can ask your parents what they think because they just don't know. And by the way, it's you're in charge of your own life. Like, you know, and the risk aversion, playing it safe, the security, you're on a path. What do you mean? Like it's now as a parent, I can understand how hard that would have been. The call when my parents got when I called them, I'm sure they were very they were not thrilled by the news. Let's say it that way. Of course, they couldn't do anything about it, but they were not thrilled. And so, when I think back to that moment, I think that the first thing is I derisked it a little bit. What I mean by that was it wasn't like, hey, I'm dropping out of science and doing this something totally different. It was like, I'm not sure. So, I'm going to diversify. I'm going to add a minor to my degree. That gives you a cover. Like, not all this has to be dramatic. So, it was dramatic, but it was a step in that direction. So, I added a minor. And so, my major stayed the same. It was more I'm adding a minor. And so, okay, well, if the school lets you do that, you're going to graduate on time. It was kind of like, well, if that's what you want to do, like, okay. Now, the bigger shock when I said, I'm not going to apply straight to med school. I was like, what? What are you going to do? And I really didn't know. And I had an older sister. she had worked in finance. I'm like, I'm going to go work at finance like Nicole does, my older sister. And so I knocked on a lot of doors to get into that industry because again, I kind of came from an atypical background and it was humbling and I think often in tech a little bit like if you're a founder, there's like the folks who know they want to start a company and do everything they can to start a company. That was not me. I was in this other camp. But I also think about it with jobs. There's folks who never have to look for a job but are always employed because they get pulled into roles. there's other people who actually have to look for a job. It's hard like what do I want to do? And you have to hustle. You got to talk to people. You got to present yourself. You got to go through the interview process. And so when I think back to that, it was hard, but I actually learned a ton of great skills having to go through that. You kind of learn like how to present yourself. What do they want to hear? You got to say in a distinct way to put your best foot forward, to put yourself in a situation where you're going to get the job offer. And so by departing from my path, I had to build all this kind of hustle skills that actually has been incredibly helpful as an entrepreneur, just stayed on the path I definitely wouldn't have built. And so I think those were, you know, sometimes you make these choices in life and you end up in the moment it was not easy and I wasn't sure it was true. You look back at yourself and you think, okay, now all the dots connect and it's kind of led me to everything for today.
Totally. I just want to point out by the way like even my first question of are there little signals from your childhood that represent or at least come through in the founder you are today and I think that story of you having the courage to say like you know what I'm actually going to go off the beaten path that people think I'm going to go on also is like a very much like a founder trait right you know like not being quite disagreeable contrarian and just holding your own conviction I think is quite important as a founder so I can see that for sure you end up like you said you graduate from McGill. By the way, was it always your intention to come to the states? Was that always like your plan to go into tech or what was that process leaving your family? All of that?
No. And you know, I didn't know. I mean, students today are lucky like entrepreneurship technology is so much more widespread. It's I think it's better understood as a career path for sure compared to 10 years ago and definitely compared to you know 25 years ago when I was graduating college. I find that where I grew up and even in smaller communities often it's like teacher, doctor, dentist, lawyer, accountant, there's like some very well-defined career paths that parents understand, parents, friends understand that you can look to your people in your life like oh yeah these I understand what this job is veterinarian I want to do that if you live in certain centers there's lots of entrepreneurs in tech but sometimes you live in at certain parts of the world like there aren't a lot of tech jobs so it makes sense that you wouldn't see tech mentors around you so no like when I was graduating. I didn't I mean I it was the boom of the Silicon Valley, so I knew a little bit of was going on the web. It was like totally the internet boom then bust. But I didn't really know what that meant. I mean Montreal and Silicon Valley are worlds apart at that point in life. So I ended up getting a job in financial services. Again, I didn't know. I did not do good research. I did not have an amazing career counselor that changed my life. I didn't have any of those things. Like it was really me paving my own path. And when you pave your own path, you don't get everything right at the front. I'm much smarter about asking for help, talking to people, reaching out to networks today than I was back then. But it was interesting. I started in financial services and I was living in Toronto at the time. And no, I didn't think about going to the US. I was living in Toronto and again that was far from where I was living and I was having a great time. I was in my 20s and it was like kind of had a Melrose Place situation where I had great roommates and we had great roommates above us and it was super fun. We were like super fun time living kind of our 20s in Toronto. Did all the intramural stuff like it was awesome. And actually through that I met an entrepreneur. It was so outside the mold of everything I had seen to that point and I really liked that. I was like oh my god like I just like the way like oh we can go make that happen. I'm like yes let's go make it happen. Everything else had been so like structured. So having meeting this person who was like an ideas person and loved to make it happen and could just like well we'll just assemble the resources and make it happen. I like really got a lot of energy from that. So I ended up going to work at a startup through this connection. I loved it. It was like my first time where I really did love what I did. I was like, 'Oh my god.' Like all of a sudden we're wearing we're like leading with our hearts and smarts, but like you really like felt passionate and we were winning against the incumbents and we were doing all this cool stuff. It was called I love rewards at the time. But it was interesting that we all very gung-ho folks and we got a lot of stuff done but there certainly wasn't a lot of experience in the room and I thought was like okay I need again I was in my 20s. I need to learn from somebody like I really need to myself but I also was smart enough to know like gosh I will learn a lot faster if I had someone to learn from. So I ended up going to take a job at a bigger tech company Toshiba which was like the exact opposite but just to learn from like professional operators and I learned a ton of through that. And so at some point I had a realization okay I'm definitely not going to med school. So now I like years later I was like I've closed off that path keep working in business and tech. I love it, but I should to round out my business skills cuz again I was learning on the job and of course you can learn on the job but it's I was like I'm going to go do my MBA and ended up going to apply to do my MBA. That's how I ended up coming to the US.
First of all, I love that story mainly because to be honest that's why I'm doing this podcast. I believe the power of exposure, right? Like so you being exposed to that founder opened your whole mind into this whole world of startups of you know you have your own personal you know conviction in a problem go and solve it like that is so amazing and there's like that tangible impact that kind of you know planted a seed in you okay so you ultimately decide to go pursue an MBA at Harvard Business School which looking back probably changed you know quite a significant trajectory in your entire life. What I want to know is deciding to go to HBS, did you have in mind what your goal was 2 years later coming out of HBS? Cuz I find that the advice you get is if you go in lost, you'll probably come out lost, you know, but if you go in with a goal, then you that's worth your time, money, everything. How did you approach Harvard Business School?
So, first of all, totally changed my life. My background is different than other people's background. But for me, it literally changed my life and opened up so many more paths that wouldn't have been impossible by not going there, but certainly would have been a lot harder to get access to. So, I am very grateful to what amazing academic institutions can do for somebody. And same with programs. Actually, I've been a part of lots of programs that have changed my life in lots of different ways. Just back to your point of when you get access or you see something, it kind of democratizes. Doesn't matter where you're from then. And again, I'm a small town Saskatchewan girl kind of making a big impact in the world. And it's through a lot of these programs that a lot of people put a lot of work into. It's like, okay, you know, if you work hard enough and are smart, you can navigate, you can get to where you need to be. The opportunities are there. So HBS has totally changed my life. And I remember, you know, most things in your life, you know, I'm in my 40s now. I feel like lots of things that are so important to you in the moment over time you forget about. new memories get made and new more important things. I feel like my essay that I wrote to apply to HBS is like forever imprinted in my brain and I should go back and find it because I for sure have it, you know, on one of my hard drives, but I won't read the whole thing, or I won't recite the whole thing. I could but the one part that I feel like is forever imprinted my brain is of course you have to have a good reason to go. And I had a great reason. And it's like look, I was on this career path was like I'm not sure and now I'm really not sure and I've fallen in love with this other thing but I need to go build my skill set and I think doing two years in an MBA program is the best way to do that and I'm very committed to doing that. Like so that was that. And so but of course they're like what do you want to do after? My exact sentence was I want to be a part of a team. I had done growth teams at the startup. I had been part of more of a company that was losing market share. Growth is much more fun than companies that are losing market share. So I said, I want to join a company Google before it was Google, Starbucks before it was Starbucks and be on the team to help win the hearts and minds of its customers. Like that's exactly what I wrote. And it didn't have to be my company. Like I didn't say it, but I wanted to be on a growth company that one day it was going to turn into a Google or a Starbucks. So I spent all of HBS looking for that. And I didn't know what it was. It was my first time living in the US. I moved here in my late 20s to go to business school here. And it was culturally a big shock even though I'd visited many times and it seems not but there was lots of differences. All of a sudden somebody who had I had done pretty well in most things in my life. All of a sudden the bar got reset much higher and I had to work a lot harder to keep up again. This humbling okay like let's do this. You had to dig deep again. You're like okay let me do this. And it was interesting every time one of the things that you don't hear about these MBA programs is there's a lot of companies and speakers who come back to the school. And so it was amazing for someone who was I didn't I wasn't set on an industry. I knew that I wanted to go work at a company that I cared about what the company did and I really wanted to be part of its growth story. So people would come I'd be like what's interesting what's growing and so it was just kind of like a green field but I really could talk to like all these explore all these different spaces. And so I ended up really getting close to LinkedIn at the time and LinkedIn was still a private company. So it was preIPO and I mean let's face it that would have been a great job because it was it you would have been fine too preo company so many smart people I was going to join the team I had done a independent study for them they really liked the work so the person I did it for offered me a job it was like I had hit the jackpot I had manifested exactly what my essay had said you know two years later my admissions essay I was like I made it happen like this is the job offer that matches that in parallel I had met a classmate and we started to work on a school project that literally turned into Cloudflare in parallel in our second semester of second year of business school. I kept saying like there's something here and I was like curious be like oh my god there's a real problem. We came up with a really clever solution. I think there's a real business model here. So I kind of fell more and more in love with it every month that went by and it was so fun to work on it and again with a small team with Matthew. But I'd be like am I really going to walk away from this dream job to go do that? Like my dream job was to go at this and a little bit like the courage to have to take the at path like I did. I had to see where it went because again the opportunity was there and I was like I wasn't ready for it to fold. I had to see where it went and so it presented itself while I was at HBS. I didn't look for it but I was looking for this other thing and I think like sometimes in the act of doing lots of opportunities present itself and that's where you want to keep your eyes open.
Okay, I can go. I have so many questions, but keeping on that path, right, is you have an amazing story that I've heard where you actually go to the person at LinkedIn who, you know, recruited you or at least was part of that journey of joining LinkedIn. And it was basically him where you would be like, I'm either joining or I'm not. Tell me the story of what his reaction was when you essentially told him, look, I have to see this through with Matthew.
Okay. So, a little context. Sometimes I cannot believe I did this, but anyhow, so it was May of 2009. And so May of 2009 was not a frothy time. Financial crisis. Jobs were scarce. I had a great job offer at a great company. And I remember like less of the class had jobs than normal because again there was this recession. So they gave students who didn't have a job $500, hadn't signed a job yet, $500 to help them in their job search. They had to get on an airplane or something. So, I took the $500 and I flew out to California. And I it was interesting. I was doing that to both work on my Cloudflare stuff, but also met with this particular my my the hiring manager, my my soon-to-be boss at LinkedIn at the cafeteria down in Mountain View. And I went and I I mean, I did not have 100% conviction. I tell that story cuz I think that there's a lot of folks out there who like, 'Oh, I knew exactly what I was doing.' I really like I did, but it was still really hard. So, I showed up to meet this person and I said, 'Oh my god, thank you so much for the offer.' or like literally this what I set out to do. You gave me my dream offer. Like this is what I went to business school to get and I like I loved working with you for the last 4 months on this independent study. I want to join, but unfortunately I've started to work on a project in parallel and I got to see where it goes. So I can't take your job offer. I got to go work on this project. Our company called Cloudflare. And this person looked me straight in the eye and said, 'You are making the biggest mistake of your life.' Because it was a rocket ship. He's like, 'This is we're preo. We're about to go public in 2009 by the way. So like things aren't great. Things aren't great. You know, YC's technically exists but not the company it is today. Entrepreneurship is not as well understood as it is today. To him like I can't believe you're giving up this offer to go do that. Like he wasn't wrong. And I think sometimes like I back to our conversation before like sometimes you go to your girlfriends for advice and sometimes they give you really bad advice or your parents and they give you really bad advice because they're doing the risk adverse path. I think like there's been so many times where some sometimes folks come to me at Cloudflare now and I'm like you shouldn't do that you should definitely do this instead but sometimes you got to go learn yourself right and so I understood why he was advocating so it was a great option and in retrospect I didn't know it in the moment in retrospect I had two amazing options I was so lucky to be in that position and while that was an amazing option I just had to go see what this other option was cuz it was a moment in time and I said to him look you might be right this might be the biggest mistake but I have to go see where this goes and if it goes nowhere you're my first call and I don't want to burn a bridge and maybe you'll still hire me anyway. That's not what I I'm not going to bet on it. Also have to work for it, but like I hope we can stay in touch. And again, I I think everyone played their part just fine in that thing. We left on good terms and we're still connected today. And and again, I think I think everyone's happy. Everyone's happy. It all worked out to be great.
I'm sure he's like, 'Okay, you know, you were on to something. Maybe you were right.' But yes,
and he's very happy for our success, which is great. And so, you know, the fact that like I walked away from that, moved to a place I'd never lived before and I didn't have a lot of money to go give this idea a go was crazy. But then also, it's on some hand having very little to lose except for this great job offer that I did. It was almost the best time to do it too because you're like your cost of living is low. There are low expectations. So, you can go and kind of put your blinders on and just go and try and make it all happen without all of these expectations around you. And and again, I think Matthew Lee and I did a lot with that opportunity, which is pretty cool.
Absolutely. I think what's so funny is cuz right hindsight 2020, you're looking back, you're kind of reflecting on it, but I mean Michelle, in that moment, you must have like an incredibly high risk appetite, right? To do that, to go and start a company in my mind could be crazy. You know, like at the end of the day, you're presented this job, you have a salary, there's all these things where a startup can absolutely, you know, nine out of 10 times is going to fail. But did that enter your mind of like were you thinking okay worst case it fails what is that okay that's fine
Okay so I it's a little bit like how people make decisions and a little bit like how did I get comfortable with the decision so I at the time would get comfortable with making kind of a big call like this by going through the worst case scenarios in my mind so my worst case scenario was I'm going to not take the LinkedIn job offer I'm going to start Cloudflare and it blows up okay now there was added complexity and I get into all the details, but as a Canadian, I could stay here. I because I went to school here, I could stay for a year kind of doing anything. So, I had a year before I had to get like a legitimate like that's right. I was on a legitimate visa. I got to be careful. I was on a legitimate visa, but the visa I was on let me worked on lots of different things including a startup versus if but it only lasted a year. It's called and after OPT, you have to get an H-1B or an LV like some other type of visa types. We don't have to go through immigration right now. And to get an H-1B, you have to be working at a legitimate company. So, so in my mind I was like, 'Okay, I have a year to kind of get this going. If it doesn't work, I mean, I did have a degree from Harvard Business School, which I think was like, you know, some people find that impressive. I'm like, I'll look for another job. They have to sponsor me for their H-1B, which is hard. That is not an easy thing.' And like the narrative is that's not easy. And of course, it's possible, but not easy. So, again, I'm going through the worst case scenarios. Worst case scenario is I get the job and I can't get the H-1B and I got to move back to Canada cuz I can always go back to Canada. My boyfriend at the time was living in Vancouver and we were in a good relationship. I was, 'Okay, I'll go move in with Jamie in Vancouver and then I'll get a job in Vancouver.' Okay. Not my top choice, but I can do that. I can knock on a lot of doors. Okay. What if Jamie and I break up? Like I literally went through this and I was like, 'Okay, they break up. I guess I'm, you know, my older sister was living in Boston at the time and my younger sister was living in London at the time.' Because normally I'd say, 'I'll go move in with my sister.' again, if you don't have an income, I'm like, 'Okay, well, if I literally don't have a job and I break up with Jamie and I can't go to visa over the US, I guess I'm going home to live with my parents.' And I like I literally remember sitting in my college dorm room. I was making this decision. I was like pretty random that I like took all these risks to get to HBS cuz I had moved in Montreal, lived in Toronto, now lived in Boston, done this Google internship in New York, back to Boston, and be like decided to do Cloudflare and everything went bust and I ended up back in my parents' basement in Saskatchewan. That's literally what I thought. But I was like, I get along with my parents. I could spend more time with my grandmother. Like I was like, not my top choice. And I think I could get a job from like I'd have to really hustle to get a job, but like it would be not my thing, but I at least I had somewhere to go. And again, that was how I got comfortable. I was like, I can live with that outcome.
