🦍 Behind the Scenes of Made by Apes: How Yuga Labs is Building Web3 Culture with Daniel Alegre! 💡

Hi, I'm Daniel Alegre with Yuga Labs, building culture on the blockchain through storytelling, experiences, and community. I'm here on Edge of NFT, featuring the pioneers putting culture on the blockchain. Keep listening.

Nice to have you. Thanks, Josh. Thanks, Richard. And if you want to keep with the introduction, why don't we just do a full podcast about my background? Just keep talking. You're making me sound like 400 years old.

I am. I was living in San Francisco for a long time. I relocated from New York to San Francisco back in '99, and with some interludes in Asia—Singapore, Tokyo, and Beijing—I was almost about 20 years in the Bay Area in San Francisco. And there was a, around halfway through COVID, there was this big caravan of people leaving the city. And I said, 'Where are you guys heading?' They said, 'Oh, we're heading down to Texas.' So packed up the kids, packed up the dogs, and got on the caravan and ended up in Dallas. So I've been here for two years.

I don't think so. You know, you have to remember that Texas is an oil state. I'm trying to say with the southern drawl, oil state. So the idea of something really cold, no, it's probably still very much heated with oil. But I've heard about that, and I don't know if it's a passing fad or not. But my grandfather, who lived a long, long, and healthy life, he would shower every single morning with ice-cold water. He would never turn on the hot water, and he just espoused the wonders of it. But I don't know, just warm water is so good. Like, why would anyone jump into a vat of ice-cold water? You tell me, Josh, how was it?

Yeah, yeah. There is also such a thing as called Coca-Cola. Coca-Cola really makes you, like, wakes you up and gives you a lot of energy too. So I don't know, cold ice or a really nice cold Coca-Cola, not sure which one I'm going to go for.

Look, I'm amazed at how quickly this company evolved and then how it became a global company as quickly as well, with having holders everywhere around the world, really passionate Web3 holders, as you say. Look, it started with four friends getting together, you know, two of which are incredibly creative, obviously, Gordon and Garga. And they had this first, the idea of the Bored Ape Club, that it's not just an NFT, but it's a community, and you know, it's a club, obviously. And then the second piece is, well, what would you do if you were to create a brand or create, you know, this quirky artwork and give the owners of the NFT full commercial rights over the creative and do with it what they want? And I think that is an incredibly revolutionary idea. You know, so for someone like me who's been in the media space pretty much all my life, you know, my family's in radio, I started in the music business at BMG and Bertelsmann before joining Google, the idea that you are going to sell your IP and then let people do whatever they want with it and either, you know, use it as their PFP or create a new business out of it is counter to everything of media rights that one has ever seen in the world. And it's really turning IP ownership on its head. So I think what they were able to do is they one had a great story and a great storyline behind the Bored Ape Club. The artwork was quirky but also identifiable by so many people. And then add to that the innovation of essentially what it is, it's community-based brand building. That's what's actually been a tremendous engine of growth and innovation and passion and everything that you see. So it's fascinating how a company that's, what, two and a half years old, has evolved and has struck a chord. And most importantly, has been able to create what is, for me personally, the most incredibly connected and tight community that I've ever seen. You know, and I've seen some really strong communities at Blizzard, you know, people who love the Blizzard games, and at Google. It's really fascinating. It's also an honor to be able to be at the helm of this company.

Yeah, is that six crypto months? And what I'm not sure is if crypto months are shorter or longer. So is it like six years or six days in normal human life? Look, this is such a rapidly evolving space that, in my view, there's no such thing as 'I now know it' and I'm a know-it-all. You know, there have been a few aspects of Web3 that have surprised me, particularly coming from Activision, where in Activision, if you launch a new game, let's say a Diablo game or World of Warcraft game, you announce it on Twitter, you know, there's some pickup in TikTok or YouTube, and then there's a Discord and Twitch. But I wouldn't say that you live and die by the sentiment on Discord or Twitter. You listen to it, but it's not as prevalent as it is here in Web3. And that, for me, has actually been one of the most interesting parts of this. And it makes a lot of sense, right? So if you think that Web3, in addition to the utility it provides for any industry or any kind of engagement, whether it's in art or in gaming or in shopping or in video production, etc., the community and the community sentiment—I underestimated how important it was to stay connected to, particularly Twitter, and how passionately people feel about it and how you have these roller coaster rides of emotion that exist on Twitter. And that, for me, has actually been the biggest learning. So I didn't think I'd be spending as much time as I do on Twitter, but now that I'm on and I listen to the feedback and I get some really great ideas from people and I stay connected with the community, I realize how powerful it really is. And I think the other one is this is just such a rapidly evolving space that it's a little bit like gaming, where in gaming there's no such thing as the winner takes it all, right? So if you have a great mobile game or a great console game, not only is it good for you from a business perspective, but it's also good for the other console game makers and all other mobile game makers because it's a hockey stick growth in gaming. Well, multiply that by in Web3, because we're really in the very, very early first part of the first inning—forget about early innings, first part of the first inning. The space is evolving so rapidly that I actually applaud innovation that not only happens at Yuga but it happens anywhere else in the space, because we have a shared interest. And the shared interest is to evangelize what Web3 can really do and how it can transform experiences. And that was also a key learning, you know, the importance of Twitter, but then also the importance of actually supporting others in the community, not only our own community but other projects, because we're all in this together. And that's making the Web3 much more useful and accessible.

That's right. That's right. That's absolutely right.

That's an excellent question, Josh, and I've thought about this a lot. I joined Google when it was still a very small company. You know, there was a few hundred people in the company when I joined, and the ethos at Google was 'launch and iterate.' You know, it was okay that you were in alpha or beta, but you launched it out there and then you figured out what was working and get users out there to test whether the product resonated or not. And as Google grew, and I ended up leaving Google when it was from a few hundred people to over 120,000, I think, when I left, the development process was such that they were much more concerned about the brand and ensuring that all products were perfect. So that 'launch and iterate' concept was only in a few fringe areas of Google, but not the core product. Now you move to gaming, and particularly companies of the size of Activision Blizzard, where you have these mega franchises that take, you know, two years, three years, sometimes five years to make, hundreds of millions of dollars that are at stake, it's hard to bring that mentality of test and innovate unless you're working with a brand new IP, you know, you're just kind of launching it out there and see what works. So the benefits of the early days of Google were that you were much more transparent and raw in what you were doing, and the community, which, you know, in the early days of Google, Google was seen as a true innovation engine, so they gave a lot of slack for technical errors and such, and the community actually made the product bigger and better. So there's benefits there that I think Yuga's done a really good job with. But then as you start thinking about projects like Otherside that are much more complicated in nature, much more complicated in platform tech that's required, you know, and at that point you actually need a greater level of operational rigor and discipline, like, you know, Call of Duty, where you start one year thinking of what you're going to launch three years from now and all the different steps that are required, it's a much longer time frame. So we've brought, since I joined, and I've had a number of new hires that came, including Mike Seavers, who was a CTO at Riot Games and Epic, Dave Rolison, who ran some of the largest partnerships at Google and was an incredible operator, you know, to bring that level of operational discipline for our innovation. But, you know, we have to balance that with that startup, scrappy, 'launch and iterate' fast. And, you know, it's a constant tension. I'm sure you experienced it, Josh, in your previous career and with this company, you know, with how fast the NFT space and the event space is evolving, right?

You know, actually, I want to lean into that because one of the things that I thought brought a lot of joy to a lot of people initially in the Bored Ape community is all of a sudden Mutant Apes came out, right? So if you own one, all of a sudden you're getting airdropped this Mutant, you're like, 'Wow, like this is so cool.' They become part of it. Then you're like, 'Oh, by the way, we're building like gaming, we're building Otherside,' and they're like, 'Oh my gosh, this is awesome.' Like you keep building that up. And so that was one of the big things that came out in 2022, obviously, are still working on that. But Daniel, I have been curious, like, you know, what's been the focus on the back half of 2023 for Yuga and where a lot of your focus has been?

Yeah, on a number of fronts. First, when I first joined the company, what I did is I took a much closer look at our holders and where they are and what they're interested in. And two things really stood out. One, obviously, Bored Ape community, really, really strong, incredibly entrepreneurial, but also very global in nature. And we had done ApeFest, our first two ApeFests here in the United States. We were already actually going down the path of doing ApeFest in Vegas, believe it or not, for this year. And again, I looked at our holders and said, 'Well, what have we done for our holders in APAC?' And we hadn't, obviously, it was a relatively young company. So I said, 'Let's do something really unique and different in APAC, not only to serve our APAC holders but also to have just a very different experience for our North American holders.' So we announced we're going to do ApeFest in Hong Kong. And that was, I guess, now a month ago already. Wow, went by fast. But it was incredible just to see people from everywhere around the world and our Hong Kong and China-based and APAC-based holders. Everything they did for the community ended up being not only a two-day Yuga-hosted event but ended up being, you know, a five-day community-based event that was just absolutely spectacular. So ensuring that we are connected with our global community, and I spent a lot of time traveling in Europe and in Asia since I joined, that was one. The other is, when I first joined, there was a lot of unhappiness in particularly the CryptoPunks world. You know, they felt that we weren't really respecting them and supporting them, and it was all about BAYC. And I realized very, very early on that even though we do have both holders of CryptoPunks and Bored Ape, the CryptoPunks holders really, really, really care about the artistry, you know, and the elegance of what CryptoPunks really means, as obviously being the first NFT collection out there. So we've done a lot of work of elevating our overall partnerships with museums around the world. You know, we had the Centre Pompidou in Paris had an exposition with CryptoPunks out there, doing much more engagement events for our CryptoPunks teams and community holders. So I think we're in a much, much better place because we recognize what they stand for and what they value. And I think that's great. And then on the Bored Ape side of the world, and this was honestly, I didn't expect this, but it makes a lot of sense if you give someone ownership over the IP and a lot of them are very entrepreneurial, well, they're going to do some crazy things with them, you know, whether they create Ape Water or Ape Whiskey or, you know, someone who has a hamburger joint in the Philippines with their Bored Ape, you know, that level of Made by Apes entrepreneurship is phenomenal. And we've been very, very supportive and leaning in to how we can help this whole ecosystem build businesses off the Made by Apes. But we still have a lot to do. You know, Meebits, we've got really interesting plans that we showcased a little bit of what we were doing in Berlin about a month and a half ago for the Meebits community. Koda, we have a lot also in play.

Yeah, I think we got a whole host of things planned across the board. Like, we recognize, and this is the challenge, honestly, because we have, as I said, honestly, selfishly and subjectively, I think we have the best Web3 community in the entire world. But it consists of a whole host of different kinds of people and different kinds of brands and different kinds of expectations and different experiences, whether they're art, whether they're gaming, whether it's Otherside, whether it's IRL events. So for a company our youth, you know, we're two-plus years old and we're still relatively small, to be able to execute upon all of them and keeping the communities as excited and engaged and supporting them, that's not easy to do. But we're all committed to it and we're all incredibly passionate to get it done.

That's absolutely right. But, you know, if there's one thing they all have in common, which is what I love about the space, is, you know, to get into Web3, you know, it's complicated. You know, it's hard. You have to understand the tech. You know, the hurdles to get on board are pretty complicated. You consider how hard it used to be to get onto the internet in the early days with the modem and the dial-up, that's peanuts compared to, you know, what it takes to ensure that you buy in the right way and you get a wallet and you don't hit the wrong link and, you know, you don't fall prey to scammers, etc. So despite all that, there's so much energy and so much excitement in the space. It's the one common thread is people are really passionate about this. And they may have, to your point, Josh, very different reasons for being in it, but the fact that they are so vocal on Twitter, so vocal on Discord, that they're so vocally connected is because they love what they're doing and we all see the promise in the space. Look, I was very fortunate enough to have graduated from grad school at a time when the internet was just starting to take off, and I got in early, early, early on. You know, this is 1993, '94, into the internet space. And anyone who is in the space, you could see like, this is going to change so much of the world. And you went through these, you know, roller coaster rides where people said, 'This is all a hype, you know, it's all about gambling, you know, you're not going to do shopping on the internet.' And then all of a sudden, like, you realize, 'Oh no, it is going to transform.' And then you go on to mobile, and I was lucky enough to be, you know, in the epicenter of the mobile evolution with Android on the Google side, you know, helping build out the mobile ecosystem. And you saw it. And then same thing in gaming. You know, I moved to gaming in late 2019, early 2020, because I knew gaming was going to be the next social networking platform, because that's how people connect and enjoy each other. All this that we're going through in Web3 is so transformative. I'd say if not as, maybe more transformative than what internet was in '93 and what mobile was in 2008. And we're going to look back on it, we're going to look back on your catalog of interviews, and we're going to go, 'Wow, you know what, we even underestimated where this was going to go.'

IP going, yeah. Look, it's limitless, and this really gets me excited because I love being able to help people create businesses and create jobs anywhere around the world. Pretty much in any major city that you go to, you are going to find a really strong Ape community. And even more exciting is when you go and there is a hangout spot that is owned by an Ape holder and they 'Apify' their location. For instance, every time I go to Tokyo, I go to the Rongi district and there's an Ape bar there that is just so uniquely done and has four Apes right there up in the front. It's not only an innovative bar in Rongi, but it also attracts community members every time they go to Tokyo. So I love that kind of collaboration where people are inviting community members to participate and help each other.

But I hark back to the early days of YouTube when Google acquired YouTube. YouTube as a platform went in a bunch of different directions that we could never have predicted. When YouTube started, it was essentially a site where people would post funny cat videos and baby videos. We thought, well, what's likely going to happen is we're going to get enough eyeballs on the platform and then we're going to get licensed content. All the major studios are going to license their content, you're going to be kind of like Netflix on YouTube. But what we didn't expect was, yes, it went down that path, not as extreme as Netflix, but obviously you can see a number of licensed content movies on YouTube. But the UGC aspect, the user-generated content aspect of YouTube really took off. You had content farms that made content just for YouTube, you had the influencer economy, you had talent agencies only for that, a way to do commerce. So if you provide a platform where people can actually own their businesses and innovate, that's where things really take off, and that's what's happening here.

So we have, as I mentioned, I bought neon signs from a guy who makes Bored Ape neon signs that should be coming I think the next two days that I'm going to put up on my wall over here. Shirts, whiskey, there's a great Polish holder who makes fantastic whiskey. And we actually did this at ApeFest in Hong Kong, we had this whole wall we call the Bodega that was actually dedicated to all our Made by Apes holders who have created businesses. But a lot of those are offline businesses, and what I mean by that is you're selling water, you're selling whiskey, you're selling beer, you're selling clothes, you're selling neon signs. Where I think the other side is going to come in and how this whole space is going to evolve is similar to YouTube, where you're going to have innovation of IP and the shared IP that happens in community-based IP creation. New digital models are going to be created, and there's already some that are evolving. There's a company that has licensed the Bored Apes from some of our holders and they're making casual games out of them, they're making puzzles, and they're finding ways to generate new engagement and revenue. And now I'm starting to see others where one has licensed content from one of the major sports leagues and they're going to Apify some of the experience that you see in some of the games. Others are engaging with Hollywood and getting rights to be able to digitize and turn some iconic movies into Bored Ape movies. This level of innovation is going to continue and we're going to make sure we're going to support them.

Yeah, look, very excited. I've known Jack, the CEO and founder of Magic, from way back actually when we both worked at Google. They're a great company and at the core they fundamentally believe as we do that creators should be compensated for their work. And there were other marketplaces out there who may have started that way but they lost their way or they weren't willing to invest in the right tech to ensure that royalties were protected. It was actually a disappointment to me, I didn't expect this to be one of the issues I would have to deal with when I became CEO. When OpenSea came out with their announcement, it was crystal clear for us that we as industry leaders needed to make a stance for creators and for protection of creator royalties. So we made our announcement and we immediately started looking at potential partners out there. And Magic Eden really stood out, they've been a great partner, great collaborator, and it's a contractual commitment that they have of supporting creative royalties. And look, this space is, as I mentioned in the beginning, it's so important to create an environment where creators can make money and find avenues to connect with different kinds of communities. And if we don't support that, this ecosystem is not going to evolve as quickly and as creatively as we all know it can. So setting the ground rules right from the beginning, particularly with companies like us who are so focused on doing right for the industry, was an absolute right thing to do, and that's part of the commitment that we have with the Magic Eden partnership.

Well, they are looking at the next launch of their marketplace and we're collaborating with them. I believe they're in discussions with other players. As I said, we're all in this as an industry together, so I think you're going to see a number of announcements and launches coming out of Magic Eden.

Yeah, look, Michael Figge is the founder of 10KTF and the brainchild of 10KTF, it was a company we acquired, and he's our Chief Creative Officer. He's very passionate about this space and he was one of the core people that thought of our TwelveFold collection. Before TwelveFold, Yuga really hadn't built a pure art project, and having thoughtful artwork is something that is obviously core to Figge and core to what we do as a company. A lot of our work is really positioned to build value within the Ethereum blockchain in a way that has composability with other protocols on Ethereum. So to publish something on Bitcoin really takes away from that composability and that allows the work to stand alone purely as artwork. TwelveFold for us really was an opportunity to create something simple, clear, and then with the same level of traits and variance and collectibility that we as Yuga are known for. It was received very well, and since then we've had a number of quirky engagements. The puzzle series has had about 50,000 people participating in the campaign over the last 12 weeks. And we're going to continue launching new, I think we're on to our final puzzle soon, and the winner of the puzzle is actually going to receive a TwelveFold. So it's actually worked out really well and it resonated with people. But for us, it really comes down to the importance of innovative artwork, and I think that's why it struck a really strong chord.

That's right. And when we say it's going to take me six months to understand the space, just as you think you understood it, curveballs get thrown at you. But the level of innovation here is fantastic. And my role as CEO is one, to make sure that Yuga is at the forefront of innovation, and two, that we're there to support creators who are actually thinking about new ways of engaging and new creations. And that's so exhilarating.

Yeah, look, I don't take those decisions at all lightly. It impacts people, their careers, their livelihoods. Where we were at when I first joined the company is, and it's very normal for a startup to be in the space where you start with four entrepreneurs who have an idea and then before you know it you've got a huge business and global attention. And you raise capital and you get so many offers of partnerships and ideas. And the hardest part for a startup in my view is not how to say yes, saying yes is easy, it's how to say no. When I first stepped into this role, I saw just the number of really well-intentioned ideas and where the company wanted to go. But I said, realistically, for a company of our size and where we are, we need to narrow down our focus and really get the few areas that are really going to matter and really going to move the needle, get those moving in the right direction. Including the re-engagement with CryptoPunks, the focus on art and creativity, the engagement with Made by Apes, Meebits, the evolution of our gaming strategy. Even as I start talking about them, I think we're a company of about 120-ish people, that's a lot on our plate. So many of the people that were hired were hired with some of the other projects in mind and their skill set was really not attuned to the priorities that we had and execution priorities that we had. So we made a pivot and brought in people who understood platforms like what we're trying to build with Otherside, and Mike Seavers is leading that in his endeavors in the infrastructure side of Otherside, but also people who've understood how to build ongoing digital experiences and live operations. That was a skill set that we didn't really have that we needed to bring into the company. So it's just a normal evolution of companies who need to focus on the few key priorities that really matter and set ourselves up for success in 2024 and beyond.

If you can figure out whether I'm a human being or not.

Sounds good, let's do it.

The first thing I ever purchased was a K-Tel album called Goofy Greats.

I actually played it so often that I think that was like, again, I'm dating myself, it was with a needle, you know, a turntable. Played it so many times that I think the needle eventually ended up creating grooves on some of my favorite Goofy Greats compilation favorites.

Nice.

Wow, that's painful to admit. So I grew up in Mexico City, I know you wanted a one-word answer, but I grew up in Mexico City and my dad sent my mom and the kids to Canada so we could learn English and French. So when I was 9 years old, I guess I moved to Toronto, and I got this chewing gum that came with hockey cards of hockey legends. And I sold a Guy Lafleur Montreal Canadiens card to a friend of mine because he had been looking for that one. Apparently it was rare, the one that I got. I said, yeah, you sure have it. And I've looked it up recently to see the value of what it is that I gave away, and that was a bad, bad, bad trade for the nickel that I got for it.

It's six figures if it had been kept in mint condition, yes.

A true friend are ignorant, and knowledge is king, right? Who would have known.

Actually, the neon sign of my Captain Poncho. One of our community members is a neon maker and I just bought it and I'm expecting it, as I said, any day now.

You will, that'll be a great one.

I have five kids, 2, 4, 10, 11, and 13-year-olds. So we've had one crib for all five, and the 2-year-old has now graduated from that one crib and we sold that crib. Painful, painful to see it go, but the crib is gone.

You're going to think, say, did he sell any NFTs? Haven't sold, I'm in it for the long haul.

Sounds corny, integrity. You know, in life, if there's one thing I've learned both from my parents and from my own experience is you cut a corner once and you may benefit from cutting that one corner, but you won't sleep well and it'll come back to haunt you at some point in your life. So integrity is everything.

Absolutely.

If I could turn things around here, you'd see I'm surrounded by three things: family pictures, Made by Apes products, and Rush paraphernalia. And what I would really, really want is the drummer of Rush's drum kit from the 1980s.

Yeah, I think so too. It went up for sale, it's the red mahogany Tama drum set. It went up for sale on eBay about 25 years ago and someone scooped it up for I don't know, like a thousand bucks or maybe 2,000 bucks. And I remember I was like, ah, maybe I should bid for it, and no, you know, I was focused on something else and I missed it. Unfortunately, he passed away two, three years ago, but his drum set from the 1970s sold for six figures. This one from the 1980s, whoever bought that on eBay, I've been trying to track the person down and I can't find them, is sitting on a gold mine.

Perfect, yeah, absolutely. You're absolutely right. Scarcity and uniqueness breeds tremendous value.

Well, I actually played air drums and real drums and was in a band and I tried to mimic him whenever I could. So if I could have his drum set, I actually do have, again, I know you want a short answer, I actually do have a unique drum set. I have Stewart Copeland's drum set, the drummer from The Police, when they did the reunion tour. Actually, believe it or not, I own his drum set. But it's Neil Peart's drum set that I want. It's the emotional connection piece that really draws people in, and that's why I think what you guys are doing at Yuga makes a ton of sense.

I'd say a constant reinvention. Like reinvent yourself, reinvent the world. That continual reinvention and putting yourself in really uncomfortable situations where you do new things in new ways has gotten me, has done well for me professionally. And I always put myself right at the intersection of opportunity and innovation. And that's what really spurs the world. And I think if done for good, it can really transform people's lives, as Bored Ape Yacht Club has done for so many people, as CryptoPunks have done for so many people.

Wow, okay, that's a tough one. You know, it's always easy to say all the good things. I do have an obsessive personality, which I think can be really good, but at times it can really drain you, particularly if something is not going in the direction you want it to and you're obsessively focused on the quality and the execution of things. That's a lame answer, but it really is. At times I get so strung up when I just say, all right, just take it easy. Take a look around you and everything that's good and all the bounty and the goodness that exists around you. Don't be so maniacal on certain things.

You know, I say, Josh, I'm just envisioning what you just said. Here's Josh who just got put into a tub of ice-cold water and thinking, what is happiness? Happiness is getting out of this.

All right, I'm there. I'm going to try it. I commit on this podcast that when I go to LA and I meet up with you, I am going to give it a try.

I actually changed the batteries on a little fan that was given to me that I've used so much. It was given to me at ApeFest by the Hong Kong Elite Apes, and you may be able to see it, but it has ApeFest Hong Kong 2023. When you rotate it, and when I'm in meetings and things get hot and heavy, I turn on the fan and it cools me off.

And open an ice-cold Coca-Cola. I am actually having a meeting with the Otherside team and we're going to go over some of their immediate work that they have planned for early in 2024. So a lot happening in Otherside. If you look at my calendar, a lot of time is being spent with the great team that we have on Otherside.

That's awesome.

It has to be 2112. It was a game changer for them as a band. And I remember as a 12-year-old when someone put the Sony Walkman, I remember that really well, and he put it in my ears and said, hey, you got to listen to this. I went, holy, what the is that? It was like a Mexican who just relocated to Canada and heard this and I went, wow, that just knocked my socks off. So, 2112.

Yeah, look, first, I know him as Alfredo, he's known as Pee Man. The guy is, first of all, it's his birthday today and tomorrow and the day after, every day is his birthday, which is incredible. He's probably like 6,000 years old now, but he works so hard and he's so passionate. He loves the space and he loves the community. So shout out to Pee Man. And not necessarily inside our company, but he has been dealing with health issues, and it's Gordon. And he seems to be doing better, but he's not totally out of the woods. But to have a founder and a partner for me, someone like Gordon is unique. So I miss him inside the company, but I'm glad to see him reviving his engagement on Twitter and obviously wish him a continued improvement in his health. The company loves him, the community loves him, and his insights are fantastic. So shout out to Gordon.

Well, I'm @daborner on Twitter and you'll see my Captain Poncho as my handle. Very accessible and I try to respond to any direct messages that anyone sends me. And then obviously if you go to Twitter and you search for Yuga Labs or Bored Ape Yacht Club, you'll see our handles at @yabornerlabs and also now at @yabornerlabsgaming as well. So that's where you can get our information, or at @boredapeyc. We're very actively engaged and there for the community and there for support of the whole space.