During the Kargil war when the Indian army needed artillery shells, this is the company that delivered 60,000 artillery rounds. This is the company that designed India's first indigenous battle tank. This is the company that's broken all the rules and redefined Atmanirbhar or indigenous defense system. Today we're going to meet Baba Kalyani, the true Atkanerbar Indian.
Mr. Kalyani, welcome to Chakra News. Such an honor to have you on our show.
Pleasure. Pleasure to be here. Pleasure to meet with you guys.
Tell us about your inspiration of getting into the defense business. You were one of the pioneers of the Atmanirbhar Indian movement even before it became a thing more than 15 years ago, nearly two decades ago.
How did it begin? Why defense and why was it an extension of what you were already doing?
You know, it all started with a concept that a lot of products that we produce here can be related to a lot of defense products. Actually there was a time when the Kargil war happened, Indian army ran out of ammunition, the 155 mm ammunition for the Bofors gun. And the SA to the defense minister that time came down to my office. Yeah, I mean he just popped into my office one day and he said we need 100,000 shells. We don't have ammunition and you know to do this in 6 months time. We used to make a lot of 81 mm mortars and small things like that for the ordnance factories on tender basis on and off but never made this 155 mm shell. But I took it up as a challenge and I said okay we'll do it and we made it happen. We were able to make you know maybe not 100,000 but a pretty large quantity, 60-70,000 shells fully machined, copper banded, ready to fill type condition and supplied to the Indian army. And that was sitting in my memory for a long time. And when 2011 came, I said why don't we look at how to make gun barrels. Actually I had no idea of how to make a gun. So I was looking at how to make components, parts, because gun barrel is a component that gets worn out and has to be replaced after x number of shots, things like that. So I said let's make products that are replaceable so that becomes a revenue item for us. So we started with that and I did a little bit of research and I found that on the T-72 tanks, and it's there in the internet you can see and find out, almost 17,800 barrels were destroyed or fault blew up initially when the tank production started. So they had huge shortage of gun barrels for the tank program. So we said let's try and make that. So we started working with ordnance factories, HVF and you know the factory in Avadi that makes the tank but just simply couldn't get anywhere. And so that was in 2011-12. Then somehow I went to Cranfield University. And because Cranfield University is a DRDO of UK, UK MOD moved its DRDO into Cranfield University. So I went to Cranfield University. They have a school of artillery there. They teach artillery, how to design artillery, how to make artillery. They also have a huge showpiece of artillery from every country for the last 25-30 years. I mean right from World War II till now. So they have American artillery guns, European ones, they didn't have an Indian one but they had the British guns etc. It was quite an interesting visit. And at that time the professor who was teaching artillery there, there were some four Indian students, DRDO used to send four of their scientists in that course that was a two or three year course at Cranfield. They used to send them every 2 or 3 years to learn about how to design artillery. So he told me that day that there is an artillery plant for sale which belongs to Rheinmetall near Zurich.
And it was set up fundamentally not to produce new artillery guns. It was set up to service all the American artillery that was used in the Afghan war at that time.
And he said it's for sale and he showed me the tender documents, you know, for sale. And this is in Switzerland which is best known for chocolates, for cheese, for clocks and for Yash Chopra films.
Exactly. But also for precision.
So and he said it's a good opportunity if you're interested in this. The whole plant is available. And you know you want to make artillery gun there are only four components that are critical to an artillery gun. One is the ordnance. The gun barrel, the breech, the muzzle, the recoil system. This is one set. That's the whole ordnance set. Then is the control system, the fire control system, your I mean in modern guns, you have a gun control computer, etc. And then you have a whole set of ancillary things for ammunition handling systems. And then your primer shooting for automation. Just four things are required. So I saw this opportunity next day I was in Zurich and it was about an hour's drive from Zurich. I went and met those guys. In the meantime that professor had phoned them saying you know Mr. Kalyani who is the chairman of Bharat Forge a big company in India he's going to come to meet you and he's interested in your plant. That guy was trying to sell machine by machine, usual auction process. So I went there. I had a look around for 2 hours. I saw the plant. I was convinced that's a good facility. I told him I want to buy the whole plant. And I told him name your price. So he named his price. In 10 minutes I made a deal. But this is a time you're ordering artillery when you have no orders. I had no orders and I didn't even know how to make a gun. But this was an equipment. You would never get a chance to get this equipment at the price I got it. And it required permission of the Swiss government. It required permission of the German government because it was a German company that owned this facility. The typical buffer permissions and all that. So we got all that done in less than a month's time. I sent my engineers there. They dismantled everything and it came to Pune. In 6 months it was set up and slowly we started productionizing it. So we got a facility in 2011 which could make guns. Now we needed you know knowledge of how to make a gun. There is another coincidence in my life. I had met many years ago the best gun designer in the world called Gerald Bull. Okay. And Gerald Bull's story itself is quite well known. It's all documented on the internet. But this guy was an American, was kicked out of the US, went to Canada, was designing artillery guns. He was kicked out of Canada. He came to Europe. He tried to design the heavy gun for Saddam Hussein and then got a lot of people in jail. He himself was hounded, he was shot down by Mossad.
Assassinated. But before he was killed, I met him a couple of times in Belgium at the airport in Brussels airport. It was just accidental actually. First time when I met him, he drew the design of a base shell. He was the original designer of something called a base shell. A base shell increases the range of artillery ammunition by some 10-15%.
Rocket assisted projectile?
No, no, it's not rocket assisted. It's base bleed. The gases go through the bottom of the shell which is a little bit hollow and it generates a reduced air drag. That is what gives it a little higher range. And he said can you make this for me? I said of course. So he gave me an order of 250,000 base plate attachments there on a paper napkin. Okay. And that's how our relationship started with Bull. And he said I have designed this gun. It is produced by MFL. There's a company in Austria. That was a company that supplied 155 mm 45 caliber guns to Iraq and Iran during their war in large quantities. So I went to I forget who was the secretary of defense that time, but nice guy. And I went to him and I said, I need to import one of these guns. I'll ensure that the barrel is drilled so you can't fire anything out of it. It's a dead gun, but I need to import it because I want my engineers to see and I want to see how this gun is and what do we need to produce it. He gave me permission. I imported one gun and from that we learned so many things. In 2 years time we were able to make our own gun which is what I showcased in the defense expo in Delhi in 2012. There are very few companies like us who spend money on R&D.
How much do you spend on R&D?
Oh, I have 500 engineers, you know you're talking about the guns for 10 years I must have spent a thousand crores developing guns. Each gun to develop costs you about 30-40 crores. We have developed about 10 different platforms.
You've developed 12 different platforms. Yeah. You'll see them when you go to the shop.
Oh. And you spent your own money a thousand cr. So that's...
Nobody gave me this money.
And the rest of the industry you're saying isn't doing this.
Nobody takes that kind of risk. You know today even the big guys they wait for the order then they go to some guy in Europe to get a technology license and then they want to make that product to that guy's license. That's why they can't export anything.
See unless you own the IP you can't export.
Right. And how important is, how critical is that IP and product for us to be you know truly Atmanirbhar?
It's very critical. Unless you own, you see what is the definition of Atmanirbhar? India must own its own IP. If you don't own your intellectual property, it's not just a piece of paper that tells you that you own this or you don't own, it's a system. It's an ecosystem that develops the capability in your people, the talent that is required in your people to do many many advanced things going in the future. And like a little bit like our space program. Okay. Unfortunately, they failed today second time.
What are the steps that you're taking here at Bharat Forge to prepare us for that future of technology?
See, we have close to 500 people in our R&D setup, engineers working on five six different verticals. One is an artillery vertical that that guy heads, Jender. He's got his own people who do all the software, the pressure curve systems, the ballistics, you know, ability to design and develop and predict what is going to happen when you actually go to fire a gun.
Yeah, it's all done here in house.
That sounds like a fascinating system.
You guys used to work in our shop in maintenance, right?
So, we developed here a program for our engineers to get a master's degree from IIT.
We developed our own talent doing all these things. We have also a program, three-year program from Birla Institute, Pilani, to get a BS degree in engineering.
Is this the Kalyani Center for Manufacturing Innovation?
And that is the key to your...
Yeah. Because without growth you have to have talent. And if you give knowledge to people who are already working on the shop floor, people who understand machines, people who understand forging technology, people who understand materials technology, it's just amazing what it produces.
So how are you using AI to design your products, Mr. Kalyani?
You know when you do a product design, the entire engineering then it goes into a CAD CAM process. It just takes a very long time. I mean if I just to give you an example, if I'm developing an FICV or a tank or artillery gun just to do a design and get to a stage where you say your design is okay, you've gone through all the checks and we can now get into the prototype manufacturing phase, it takes 2 and a half 3 years. Using digital and AI technology, basically you know AR VR technologies, you can cut this time down to 6 months. So the moment you have your CAD file you can create a 3D image of a product and the moment you have a 3D image of a product you can blow that 3D image. Whatever is missing can be added in hours into that.
Fascinating. Like a video game.
Yes. Like you have it right here. Yeah. Exactly like a video game. It's exactly like a video game. You can call your customers. You call the people from the artillery side of the army. Show them what you're making and tell them do you need anything else? Do you need any more seating in there or any more systems in there? So all this happens extremely fast.
That sounds fascinating. Can we take a look at this?
So we will go and have a look.
All right. Absolutely. Sounds like fun. Let's see.
We've been hearing a lot about Bharat Forge's light tank.
Here's a light tank. It's got a 105 mm gun. It weighs under 25 tons. It's amphibious. They've got two amphibious jets in the back. Now, when you do this in this fashion, manufacturing becomes very easy because the hull is the middle portion.
Right? So, that's the welded structure that you got to make. That's where the power pack fits in. So, you can design how to fit the power packs. Now we have done it in such a way that if something goes wrong with the power pack, you can lift the power pack out, put a new one in and the tank is running.
Right. So it's a modular construction.
And how long is the gunner who sits there? Is that your turret or is that the imported turret?
Right? And when are you going to have that indigenous...
All everything here is indigenous. Nothing is imported. 100%. Yeah. All 100% indigenous. That's a Caterpillar engine. It's got a Renk transmission. It's all made in India. Rest of the parts we make ourselves.
Fabulous. And how long did it take you to design this light tank?
We started on this roughly about a year ago and I think by March we will see the tank rolling out and by about September it'll be ready for army trials. March 2026 first prototype will be rolled out and by September 2026 it's ready for trial.
So this is under construction in your facility as we speak.
It's got an electronic cockpit. It's like an aircraft cockpit. That's where the driver sits. And this helps you design the ergonomics of the whole platform and you have everything in front of you. If you were to do it with a normal CAD CAM, you know the old school, how long would it take you to design a tank like this?
Zorawar took 7 years to design.
7 years. And how long did it take you to design this? This is less than one year now.
Less than a year and it's only because of technology that...
Exactly. Cut down these times.
So this is the first Indian tank that you're looking at possibly since...
And this is our design, not DRDO or anybody.
So this would be the first Indian private sector, purely private sector designed tank. And you have hopes for exporting it as well.
Actually the way we have designed it is keeping the world markets in mind. We see a lot of opportunity of selling this in Europe, in Africa, in Southeast Asia. A lot of opportunities.
So, is this your Durand product or is the 155/52 your Durand product?
So, part one and part two.
Yeah, something like that.
Okay, that's fascinating. Mr. Kalyani, I mean, thank you for showing us these, but I'd like to see the factory floor now. We've been talking about it for so long.
Let's go. We go to the factory.
Oh, let's go to the factory floor.
So this is the 45 caliber. Yes, we have fired, tested. Now, let's see what the army decides.
This has absolutely no problem.
And this has been tested in the field.
That's a 39 caliber, right? So, this is you've basically mastered this entire mounted gun system that we kept talking of.
130, 155/39, 155/45, 52. Yes, we have 52 mountain gun also.
Right. So, are these for the Indian army?
No, this is for exports. We're trying to get some more export orders.
And how satisfied are your customers?
Very satisfied. See, this is a product that requires almost no maintenance. Very rugged, very strong.
So, it's just a 4x4 military truck with a 155.
