Founder & Chief Executive Officer of Hinge, Match Group
How Hinge is using AI (with CEO Justin McLeod) | Rapid Response
As young people report feeling lonelier and less connected than ever, the dating app Hinge is driving its users into real life, human experiences. CEO Justin McLeod returns to Rapid Response to share how the platform is combating digital fatigue amongst users, as well as navigating the risks and opportunities of AI in online dating. McLeod also explores Hinge’s recent collaboration with renowned psychologist Esther Perel, and offers insider tips to find that special someone in the chaos of modern romance.
Chapters:
00:00 Introducing Justin McLeod
01:37 Hinge's growth despite a tough market fo...
About Justin Mcleod
Justin McLeod, founder and CEO of Hinge, has discussed his philosophy that love is not about finding a perfect match but about building a relationship through vulnerability and effort. In a 2021 interview, he stated, "You don't find the one, you create the one," and in a 2020 podcast, he elaborated that there are "many ones for us out there" and that relationships require work. McLeod also described Hinge's deliberate design choice to have a longer sign-up process, noting that the app loses over 20% of users during registration, which he called "a feature, not a bug" because it filters for users seeking meaningful connections. McLeod has also shared personal habits for maintaining focus and balance. In a 2020 interview, he said he avoids having Slack and email on his phone to prevent a "reactive mode" and to allow space for strategic thinking. During the COVID-19 pandemic, he described establishing a routine with his partner that included morning yoga, walks, and designated work hours to create normalcy and boundaries.
Transcript (67 segments)
J
Justin Mcleod0:00
Dating apps haven't served them particularly well. When an app is really designed for engagement and retention and matches and relationships, then it can make people feel like they're stuck and they're putting a lot of effort not getting what they want. One out of every 10 engagements in the US is from Hinge specifically. There's so much opportunity out there and people are lonelier than ever and I don't wish ill upon any of my competitors. I think that everyone needs to be doing more and better right now to help people find love and connection.
B
Bob Safian0:27
That's Justin McLeod, CEO of dating app Hinge. As other dating apps have been faltering of late, Hinge is continuing to grow rapidly. Justin returns to Rapid Response to explain how over the past year, his app has been able to sidestep younger generations' fatigue with digital interaction and the saturation of choices for finding love online. Justin talks about the risks and opportunities of AI in online dating, his collaboration with renowned psychologist Esther Perel, and why we need genuine human connection offline more than ever. Whether you're coupled up, single, or somewhere in between, get set for a lively exploration of the business of love in the 21st century. And don't miss our lightning round at the end with tips on how to put your best foot forward when looking for a match. I'm Bob Safian and this is Rapid Response.
I'm Bob Safian and I'm here with Justin McLeod, CEO of dating app Hinge. Justin, great to have you back on the show.
J
Justin Mcleod1:35
Hey, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.
B
Bob Safian1:37
You were last on the show about a year ago. Hinge has been doing great since then. Revenue up 25%. But I got to say, a lot of the other major dating apps are struggling. What's the trouble in the industry? People not dating as much?
J
Justin Mcleod1:53
I think people still want to date. I mean, when we talk to daters, we talk to Gen Z, people want connection as much as ever. I mean, I think loneliness is as big a problem as it's ever been. Hinge is continuing to succeed. Revenue is up 25%, but users are up 20%.
B
Bob Safian2:09
And so, the troubles in other places in the industry, I mean, like they talk about like, oh, there's a cultural shift, young people dating less, you know, they're changing their behavior.
J
Justin Mcleod2:19
I certainly think that young people have started to turn to other methods thinking about how do I meet people in real life or how do I meet people in other ways because I think that dating apps haven't served them particularly well and that has been my critique and that's why I rebooted Hinge back in 2015. And when an app is really designed for engagement and retention and matches but not necessarily dates and relationships then it can make people feel like they're stuck and they're putting in a lot of effort not getting what they want.
B
Bob Safian2:51
And the driver behind your momentum like over the last year, what's different than the conversation we might have had a year ago?
J
Justin Mcleod3:00
So when we were here last year, we were talking about AI and the potential that AI held. And I think over the last year, we've started to implement features that have had a really big impact on our daters. For example, personalized matching and talking about a world where we could get much better and more tuned to our data tastes. And we've completely overhauled our recommendation system since then using AI. And we've seen double-digit gains in both the effectiveness of our recommendation system as well as the efficiency of it. So people are getting more dates with less effort.
B
Bob Safian3:36
But this is all like on the back end. The relationship that users have with your app is not necessarily based around AI specifically, right? I mean, I know you've sort of spoken out a little bit about AI's potential to erode connection.
J
Justin Mcleod3:54
Yeah, absolutely. So, well, there's a lot of nuance to the question. We have implemented more visible generative AI features like prompt feedback for example which is coaching users on how to craft better profiles. And because a lot of our users will write answers to prompts that can be like one word or two words or really don't give you a sense of who they are and we can give them feedback and help them basically to write a better prompt and we've seen really great gains from that. We've seen that we reduced the incidence of poor quality prompt answers by more than a third and we tripled the incidence of high quality prompt answers by giving people that kind of coaching. But yeah, when you talk about AI companions and actually starting to displace relationships and having people interact with AI and spending more time on their screens and less time in real life, I think that definitely is a problem and something that you're right I have been very outspoken against.
B
Bob Safian4:53
Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's running this tricky balancing act where you're using AI, maybe ways to strengthen the creation of these relationships, but you have to do it or you want to do it in a way that doesn't displace the human to human experience.
J
Justin Mcleod5:08
Precisely. I mean AI is a technology, a very powerful technology and just like any technology before we can use it in a principled, thoughtful, beneficial, healthy way. And we can use it in a very unprincipled, unthoughtful, unhealthy way. One of our principles around AI is that it really should stand behind us and not between us. It can help support us so that we have richer interactions with other people on Hinge and move off the app faster, but it certainly shouldn't be something that we start engaging with as an end in itself just for entertainment or as I would say like artificial intimacy or artificial connection. Like I don't think that an AI chatbot should be your friend or certainly not your boyfriend or girlfriend.
B
Bob Safian5:52
But could be your dating coach.
J
Justin Mcleod5:55
Yes. Just like people read self-help books or coaching books, can we give people nudges in the right direction? And I certainly think that we can. We don't want to put words in their mouths, which is not what we do. We're really mostly it's just recognizing that someone's answer to a prompt could give us more detail. And we usually honestly usually the response is can you say more about that or tell a little bit more why that's true instead of writing things on their behalf which could then introduce an idea that this is not authentic.
B
Bob Safian6:27
It does sound a little bit like I'm talking to an AI therapist like an AI dating therapist. You partnered earlier this year with Esther Perel who's a renowned psychotherapist to launch your world prompts. Now, are there things that from her perspective or your perspective about AI therapy do or don't apply to what you're trying to do with folks in their dating lives?
J
Justin Mcleod6:49
I've had a long-standing relationship with Esther. And you know, I think she's been skeptical about dating apps and we've had our conversations about whether they're like how beneficial they are and the right way to implement them. And I think over time we've really earned her trust as a partner because we really do approach it in a very thoughtful way that's very human-centric and very outcome based. And so I think she trusted us and especially because the prompts fit so well with her brand, you know she has her game where should we begin where she writes prompts for people to have deeper conversations at places like dinner parties or at the office.
B
Bob Safian7:25
Right and I should say for the listeners these prompts are not about building your profile. They're about having conversation with someone to get to know them better.
J
Justin Mcleod7:36
Essentially, that's what we're trying to do on Hinge. I mean, that's the purpose of a prompt on Hinge is to prompt you to talk about something so that you can start interaction and a conversation, form a connection, and then move offline. And she had some great ideas for some prompts that she wanted to put on Hinge. They are very much in the spirit of inviting someone into your world. So, you know, before we go out, you should listen to X or when I want to feel more like myself, I go do Y. And that really helps people understand a bit like what am I listening to? Where am I spending my time? And giving people a bit of a fuller picture about who you are.
B
Bob Safian8:12
We mentioned in passing earlier this sort of rising conversation about more in-person experiences and young people sort of choosing them or wanting that in some ways over digital interactions. Now you're a digital service of course, but you've also talked about expanding into broader community building and in-person activation. I'm curious how you think about sort of real world iterations, how important that might be to Hinge's future and where you're going with it.
J
Justin Mcleod8:43
Well, we do millions of in-person events every month and they're called dates and that ultimately is the purpose of what we're doing and that really is our wheelhouse. Listen, I'm all for people spending more time meeting together in person, out in real life. We have a program called One More Hour because we support groups that gather together on a regular basis. We see the decline in time spent together in person, especially among young people and the requisite increase in anxiety and depression among that group. So, the more people are spending time together out in real life and the less time on their devices, the better. And that very much mirrors the ethos of Hinge where we really are trying to get you to spend less time in our app, more time out on dates and relationships so that you'll find your person and then ultimately go tell your friends to try Hinge.
B
Bob Safian9:33
Does the brand of Hinge need to sort of have a community real-world iteration for itself aside from you know my personal date that I might be going on.
J
Justin Mcleod9:44
Yeah, I think we are so precious and thoughtful about our brand and we really try to do things that are really going to have an impact and aren't just for show. And to be able to do something at scale with quality across tens of millions of users where people can get together in real life on a regular basis and still maintain the control of the experience and the brand is not territory that I exactly know how to approach. There are lots of people out there doing in real life events and I, you know, applaud it, encourage it, we fund it. We're all for it, but it's just not our core competency.
B
Bob Safian10:18
When you look at the competition at the other apps, actually, I don't even know how much you do look at the competition. I know some of it is in-house within your parent company with Match Group, which also owns Match and Tinder and OkCupid and a bunch of others. Like, how much do you pay attention to the competition?
J
Justin Mcleod10:37
We really don't look to the competition. That's a mistake that I made the first time around is spending way too much time thinking about the competition and what they were doing. And when I did the reboot of Hinge, I steered the team to just pay attention to our customer and our users who are out there trying to find dates. And there's so much rich territory when we just try to deeply understand our users and the problems they're facing. And that is why I think Hinge has become so innovative. And I think a lot of other dating apps are paying attention to us because you can see how they're all slowly introducing features that make them more and more similar to Hinge. And that's why it's all the more important that we don't look at them. We actually look to our users and to emerging technology and that's how we stay at the forefront of innovation.
B
Bob Safian11:20
How much of building your business from this point is like there's a road map that you're on that you're implementing versus sort of like reacting and staying open and kind of finding whatever's next or do you have like no we know where we're going we know exactly where we're going next?
J
Justin Mcleod11:42
I think we know big picture where we're going. I think we know high level that the future and what AI is going to enable is much more personalized matching. We can collect more data that's more nuanced and use it in a better way to create a much more efficient matching process. And we can help our users put their best foot forward by giving them the right coaching and the right nudges so that they fill out good profiles and use the app well. Those I think are the two main vectors of work that we're focused on right now. And we have to stay really curious because the market's changing a lot. Technology is changing a lot and so how exactly that is going to manifest we don't know yet and I think we can't know because everything is changing so quickly so that's why it's really important to have just a very nimble team, a very solid research organization and continue just experimenting.
B
Bob Safian12:39
You said that your best marketing is word of mouth where real couples sort of share how they met on Hinge and I have to shout out one of our producers Masha who you know could share a success story of her own. She's a Hinge user very happily in a partnership now. How do you measure sort of word of mouth against more traditional like marketing and ad campaigns? Are there metrics that you track? Like how do you know?
J
Justin Mcleod13:09
I mean first and foremost we're making sure that our users on the app are actually getting out on dates and those dates are good. So that's the kind of most leading metric. You know, we can do attribution surveys to understand what percentage of our users show up because they heard about it through an ad versus heard about it through a friend. Still the majority for us is people are hearing about Hinge through friends and friends having success stories, but and on top of that, it's helpful to be able to tell our story through our marketing and make sure that people understand that Hinge is the app that's designed to be deleted for people who are really thoughtful and want to find their person. It's especially useful as we launch new markets. We launched into Europe. We've already become the number two vying for number one spot in Europe. We just launched Mexico this week. We're launching Brazil in the fourth quarter. And so marketing obviously plays a huge role as we go into those markets.
B
Bob Safian14:00
I keep seeing Hinge no ordinary love stories in the New York City subway where I am. Which in some ways are like traditional ads that are about word of mouth. They're these sort of short accounts of the two different sides of how a Hinge couple meets. But one of the things I noticed, they're not sort of classic romcom like meet cute tales. There's usually some kind of a snafu or something. Like what do you hope people take away from that from the campaign from that idea?
J
Justin Mcleod14:30
I think something that Hinge pushes back against is this idea of stylized love. Like this idea that there's one form of love. It's this like romcom meet cute perfectly linear story of love. And the fact is that true love stories are messier and have more twists and turns and fits and starts and we want to bring that to reality. So the no ordinary love where we had writers write the love stories of our Hinge users. We'll have a campaign coming out very shortly, which is version two of It's Funny We Met on Hinge, which is something that I've always wanted to do since I started Hinge, which was to redo those kind of cheesy 1990s e-harmony ads where you had the couple standing on the white background telling their cheesy story. And we have incredibly diverse couples telling just their raw stories about how they could have met somewhere, but they ended up meeting on Hinge. Again, just showing you the story of meeting on Hinge is just different for everyone and is unique and is a kind of ultimately in a weird way kind of like a meet cute in its own way.
B
Bob Safian15:35
Yeah. A funny trend I've read about on Hinge, some women using Hinge to get their furniture built for free by their matches. Does your team endorse this activity?
J
Justin Mcleod15:49
I mean, it's funny to see how Hinge shows up in culture. That is like not an actual trend, but it's a funny story that showed up in the New York Post or whatever. I mean, I'm sure there are some people who are out there doing it, but it's not a significant trend, but a funny one.
B
Bob Safian16:07
No planning for a collaboration with TaskRabbit then.
J
Justin Mcleod16:09
That's not in the plans as far as I know, but maybe I'll talk, that's a good idea. Maybe I'll talk to our marketing team.
B
Bob Safian16:14
When the world feels overwhelming like it has through much of 2025, do users interact with your app any differently? I mean, like do economics and politics and geopolitics impact our dating posture?
J
Justin Mcleod16:31
We see some evidence of, you know, heightened tension. We see some evidence of people thinking more about politics and what their politics are and what their partner's politics are. So we see it in that way but not in a major way.
B
Bob Safian16:46
I mean I know historically Hinge has sought to reflect its user base in employee diversity and as DEI has come under fire this year. Is diversity still something the company wants to uphold? Is the way you talk about it or deal with it adjusted at all?
J
Justin Mcleod17:06
It's an absolute business priority for us because it's no coincidence that our employee base matches our user base which matches the kind of broader environment that we're in from whether you cut it by looking at LGBTQIA or whether you look at it by race or gender. And getting the diverse employee base preceded us having a diverse user base and it's precisely because we had the people in-house and that we are actually building with not for our market. That again has been a real key to our success.
B
Bob Safian17:44
And you're not worried about being critiqued for not providing enough opportunities to straight white men.
J
Justin Mcleod17:52
I think that we provide opportunities to everybody and we're going to continue to do that.
B
Bob Safian17:59
What's at stake for Hinge right now?
J
Justin Mcleod18:02
Well, I mean, I think that we are in a, you know, as you said, the larger narrative right now on the category is we're facing headwinds and that there's lack of innovation and all that. And I just we're continuing to really tell the story that it's just not the case at Hinge, that Hinge is continuing to grow significantly, that we're continuing to resonate with the next generation. That we're continuing to lead on innovation. That you know that idea of like would you rather be a growing part of a shrinking or stagnant pie or you know whatever a smaller part of a growing pie. Obviously you want to be a growing part of a growing pie but.
B
Bob Safian18:37
Yeah I'd rather be a growing part of a growing pie personally. So, and I'm excited to see, you know, we have new leadership at Match Group and I hope that the rest of the category, you know, there's so much opportunity out there and people are lonelier than ever and I don't wish ill upon any of my competitors. I think that everyone needs to be doing more and better right now to help people find love and connection. And if they're borrowing some of that and copying some from what Hinge is doing, that's okay or that's to be expected.
J
Justin Mcleod19:13
Listen, it wouldn't be my business strategy personally, but I will say that I think copying makes sense when you're the bigger player and the leader, then maybe you want to stop someone, you know, an up-and-comer, but if you're behind and you're copying the leader, then that's going to be a hard game to win.
B
Bob Safian19:29
But now of course you're the leader so does that mean that you're you know looking at what others are doing or you haven't seen much there that you want?
J
Justin Mcleod19:39
You know I'm paying attention less to the major other dating apps and thinking about little startups that are starting to use AI in more innovative ways and I am paying a bit more attention to that.
B
Bob Safian19:49
All right, how do you feel about doing a quick lightning round? Are you game?
J
Justin Mcleod19:54
Yeah. Yeah, that's fine.
B
Bob Safian19:57
What is the dating app myth that you most wish you could bust once and for all?
J
Justin Mcleod20:03
That meeting on an app isn't romantic because I think it's you know everything that comes you know how you meet is just such a tiny sliver of everything that comes after when it comes to a relationship. And that's all the stuff that builds the romance. It's not necessarily the meet cute. I wish people weren't so obsessed with how they meet versus who they meet.
B
Bob Safian20:27
Yeah. You need to update the You've Got Mail movie to be about Hinge, right? It's got to be another way to do it. Yeah. Hollywood has not given you that seminal film yet, huh?
J
Justin Mcleod20:37
Not yet. But I'll say, you know, I feel like it's becoming more ingrained in culture over time as the accepted way that people meet because the fact is it just is the way most people are meeting. Actually, I saw a stat recently that now one out of every 10 engagements in the US is from Hinge specifically.
B
Bob Safian20:54
That's pretty exciting. All right, let me give you another one. One green flag that you would look for on a profile.
J
Justin Mcleod21:02
Well, I've been married for quite a while, so I don't think.
B
Bob Safian21:07
Well, for folks who are dating or putting profiles together, what would be something green to look for?
J
Justin Mcleod21:13
No, I know. I know. I just think that someone who is willing to who's putting in the effort and being vulnerable on their profile and gives you a way to actually start a conversation like I think those people are always going to be the more interesting intentional thoughtful people.
B
Bob Safian21:33
All right. And what about the other end of the spectrum? One red flag that should be like an instant swipe left.
J
Justin Mcleod21:40
I don't believe first of all in instant swipe lefts. I think everyone should take, you know, everyone's a human being who deserves a moment of consideration. And but again, it's almost the opposite of that, which is that someone who's not willing to put themselves out there yet, who has one word answer to prompts and, you know, photos that don't really show who they are. It's just not necessarily a red flag, but it's just hard to engage with someone who's not doing enough to let someone in enough to start a conversation.
B
Bob Safian22:12
All right. If you could add one outrageous just for fun feature to Hinge for 24 hours, what would it be?
J
Justin Mcleod22:26
This is like making you look at all the things you've said no to from your team over the years, right? You know, it's pretty interesting and this has been an experiment that other apps have run which I wish worked better, which is that you remove all the photos from the app and let people just match on people's prompts and the conversations and you do get a lot more activity and people are a lot more open-minded. It's a fun experiment to run. But it does matter to people what people look like.
B
Bob Safian22:58
It does ultimately matter what people look like.
J
Justin Mcleod23:00
Yeah. It's all part of chemistry and what people are looking for. And like I'm not here to like judge one way or the other that people take looks into account alongside a whole host of other things that matter.
B
Bob Safian23:13
Well, Justin, great as always to match and chat with you about this stuff. Thanks so much for doing it.
J
Justin Mcleod23:21
Thanks a lot, Bob. It's really good to see you.
B
Bob Safian23:25
It's fascinating to dive into the world of online dating with Justin. It underscores more than just our human desire for connection, but how technology now mediates both matters of the heart and strategies for growth. I'm struck by Justin's conviction that you need a team as diverse as the customers you're trying to reach. After all, the wonderful thing about online dating is you might meet someone you wouldn't run into in your usual circles. It's a way to bring together people from very different backgrounds. And these days, we could all use more of that in our love lives and our everyday lives. I'm Bob Safian. Thanks for listening.