How Hinge founder Justin McLeod’s love story shaped a dating empire

I asked if she'd be willing to chat and she said, 'Yeah, let's talk this Friday and we can talk on the phone.' And then I went to the airport and I bought a plane ticket to Switzerland. And then she said, 'Okay, I'm ready to like talk now.' I'm like, 'Great.' Cuz I'm going through immigration right now in Zurich.

Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

As a kid, I loved big love ballads. Whitney Houston and, you know, Celine Dion and Bryan Adams, like all these people from like the late 80s, early 90s and their big love ballads and Meat Loaf. I just really remember that song, that album, Bat Out of Hell, and driving around with my mom in the car, like belting that song out.

Oh, yeah. A flare for the drama was also probably part of my life.

I was like a serial monogamist from the time I was in like second grade, you know, and I just was always a... I don't know really what it was. I feel like I just was here for love. I think it's like deeply part of my like dharma on this planet. And I just loved love songs as a kid. I just did. And it does feel kind of prophetic that I look back on my life and there were kind of like two big threads. One was math and computers and like that world and the other was love. So it's interesting how they like worked together in the end for my career.

Sure. I grew up in Louisville, Kentucky, and I was an only child, like growing up in the suburbs. I was just like always very like a very social kid. Like I was just like always surrounded myself with people, especially by the time I got to high school. I was someone who was always at the center of everyone and everything in the social scene and bringing people together and introducing people to each other. But also at that time starting in high school, I started drinking and found my way to like other drugs and addiction became like a pretty big part of my story during high school and during college.

You know, growing up in Louisville, Kentucky, I just felt like I was, I don't want to say like wasting away a little bit, but I just like felt very bored. I was always like I knew I was like a pretty smart kid and I also had like a huge hunger for like excitement and adventure and novelty and not feeling like I had a lot of ways to go do that and explored it through a lot of drinking and partying instead, which was like my way of risk-taking and adventure. And I think that that song just kind of captured the angsty, wasted time, not sure what I'm doing with my life kind of moment in my life.

No, it was definitely a time that I was definitely listening to the song at that time. That's how I picked all these songs actually. These are just like the soundtrack to what was going on in my life at the time and the songs that I kind of had on repeat at each phase of my life and that was that time for me.

Yeah. Yeah, I think it was just a time of like really feeling a bit lost, honestly.

I don't think they really knew until my freshman year of college. I got in so much trouble my first year at school, even though I had like pretty good grades. I had to spend my summer in rehab in order to even come back for my sophomore year of college. And at that point, I think they became aware.

Yeah. I mean, my freshman year, I didn't go to bed sober once my freshman year of college, and I had gone to go see a drug and alcohol counselor towards the end of that year on my own volition just to be like, gosh, I feel like things are getting a bit out of control for me. And she actually told me, she's like, 'Gosh, Justin, I think you're probably an alcoholic and you should, you know, stop drinking.' And I'm like, 'Well, let's not be rash. That seems like a dramatic fix to that problem.' And then it was only like a few weeks later and I got written up by campus safety, I think like three times in one night. And at that point they like referred me back to the same drug and alcohol counselor who was like, 'This kid needs help.' And she's the one I ended up having an incredible relationship with her. Her name was Jane and she actually saved my life probably. But she's the one that actually referred me and is the reason that I spent that first summer in rehab.

Yeah. It's all it feels all so tied together because when I got back that very first night I through happenstance met Kate who became my college girlfriend and is now my wife. I mean our meet-cute was not the cutest of meet-cutes. She found me passed out in a stairwell because I was out celebrating my release from rehab.

Yeah. We were just very very close during that time and got very very close during that time and just had this very instant connection with each other. She's just got this like huge personality, really magical, larger than life way about her that I was just really drawn to from the beginning.

Yeah, I mean she was just a very different person than... I mean she'd have showed up to college and she'd never had a beer or kissed a boy and like went to an all girls Catholic high school in New Jersey. And so we were just like very different human beings with very different experiences. So there was a lot of tumult in the beginning.

It was just this like fun, joyful song. You know, I think in early love, you feel like you meet someone and you can go anywhere and do anything with that person. And that song, I think, really captured that. And we used to listen to it in my car driving around the hills near Colgate where we went to school. Yeah. It's just when I think about that time of like meeting Kate, that's like the number one song that comes to me.

Do you have like a favorite story from college that you always kind of remember like whatever it was doing with her?

I was young. I mean, we were I was 19 when we met and she was 18 years old. So, I think I had some sense of that, but it also felt so early in life. I'm not sure. I was like I had a mindset towards like the one yet and yet she kept feeling like the one. So we would like break up and then we would get back together and we would break up and like we're too young and we have to go out and like live our lives and then we would end up back together.

The party came to an end for sure. I at the end I, you know, got sober actually the day I graduated from college and we tried to make it work one last time after that. She'd actually transferred schools and had gone on to an art school college in Boston and I just like wasn't ready yet for a real relationship. I don't think I still had so much growing up to do and sobering up to do and it was heartbreaking because I like knew I loved her a lot and I knew that she also loved me and at the same time I just didn't feel like I was ready for that relationship and it was heartbreaking cuz I knew I was like giving up the relationship and she very quickly met someone else and ended up moving across the ocean to Europe with them and yeah and I think that was like a time of just heartbreak and regret and a real sobriety on multiple fronts feeling like getting sober from drugs and alcohol obviously but also just getting sober about life and facing the reality that I wasn't ready for that relationship.

Yeah, I think it was just a like really tough time and I think that song just like captured the regret and the sadness.

Yeah, it's emotional. It's funny like going back through like the actual like listening to these songs, you know, as because before this podcast, I had to like write down and pick all these songs, but I didn't even go back and listen to all of them. And it's interesting how much actually listening to them again can bring up and like put you back in those moments.

I remember waking up on the day I graduated from college and just feeling hung over and feeling like the steering wheel to my life had just like broken. Like I kept trying to like turn it one way and my life kept going the other way. You know, I'd applied to a whole bunch of jobs at these prestigious investment banks like the Goldman Sachs and JP Morgans of the world and I hadn't gotten a single one and I ended up at this consulting firm in DC that I didn't really even want to go work for and was like losing the girl. It was just all the things were falling apart and I just really felt for the first time like I did not have control of my life because up until that point I was able to I still like got good grades and all these things. So I was like you know I can drink, I can party and I can also show up and do the things I need to for life but I was like starting to like not be able to show up for life anymore. And I also just felt like I was again going back to like the destiny thing. I don't know. But I felt like I was meant to go like do something in the world and I wasn't going to be able to do it if I kept wasting my life away like this. That was just a marker for me. And I moved to Washington DC. And I think the change in venue helped like getting away from my friends, getting away from college and being able to dive into work and dive into getting sober.

A couple things were happening simultaneously. So one was I'd been sober for about four years at that point, and I decided to reach back out to Kate. So, I reached out to her. She responded. We got on the phone and we actually were planning to meet back in New York over Christmas. And then a couple days later, she called me back and she's like, 'You know what? I just can't. If I see you, I don't know what's going to happen. I have a life now. I'm with someone. I think it's better that we don't see each other.' And I was heartbroken. And I was also at business school and I was sober and so much of what you know it was a relief a bit to leave college and go just be able to create my own world and my own friends in DC. But now I was back in business school. There's a lot of social pressure. It was a lot of partying, a lot of trips. And it was hard for me to like participate in that stuff because it was too tempting for me. So it was hard for me in a way. It was like hard for me to meet people. I really felt alone even amongst the crowd and again someone who like really loves love and it just lost you know I really felt like Kate and I were going to end up back together and at this point I was like there's no way like we're not ending up back together at this point. And Harvard Business School was going to throw this last chance dance party where everyone's going to list their crushes and I took it upon myself to like help make that a reality and built this little Facebook app where people could like list their friends, those who were crushes, and would tell you if two people liked each other. And that just got the wheels turning for me. And I accepted a job at McKinsey, a consulting firm. But I just like couldn't stop thinking about this idea of a friends of friends dating app. Like it was novel at the time because there were no dating apps. There was just there were dating websites where you use a screen name and you'd fill out these long essays. And it was like, well, what if you could just kind of let yourself create a simple social profile, use your real name, connect through friends. And that idea took hold of me and I just could not stop thinking about it and started playing around with it and working on it and didn't stop. Here we are.

I never showed up.

Yeah. Yeah. In fact, I kept deferring my offer because I guess I wasn't totally sure if it was going to work or not. And like a couple years in, Hinge had gotten at least decently big in Washington DC and Boston and New York. And we did this ranking of like the hottest workplaces and McKinsey was on the list. And then an email started going around McKinsey that was like, 'Do you know the person who started this as an associate in waiting?' And at that point, they rescinded my offer. But by that point I was okay with that.

Again. I guess I just remember mostly songs apparently that I was like driving to, but I was taking a road trip from Boston to San Francisco and I just remember listening to that song and just feeling liberated in a way cuz I think I got very in the competitive mindset of like, you know, you need to get a job at a McKinsey or a Goldman or something like that and deciding that I wasn't going to do that and just go do something that seemed crazy. Like so many people, especially even in business school, were like, 'This is the dumbest idea. Like, this will never work. You don't have a chance.' But I didn't care. Like, I just was like, I love this idea and I think it should exist in the world. And it just seemed fun. And it wasn't about like the prestige or the money or anything like that. It was just like this seemed like a really fun thing to work on and I wanted to follow my heart.

I kind of forgot about this song and it's so good. It's so good. Yeah, it was just like a fun road trip like driving, you know, I was going through all the big national parks on the west coast and really excited about this idea and just feeling like really hopeful about I was going to, you know, go change the world with this new dating app idea.

Oh, yeah. All the time. I mean, Hinge almost failed so many times. We were down to like days of cash and Yeah. I mean, it was such a wild, tumultuous time. Very stressful.

Yeah. Tell me about it. Yeah. I think I'm like realizing that as I tell the story. But it was really, really tough. And at a certain point, we kind of like rebooted the app and tore it all down from scratch because originally we were making it like a website that was on Facebook and then we decided to pivot to a mobile app. And at that point we did that and we were throwing the launch party in DC with our like last $25,000 in funding and we'd only raised a few hundred thousand and threw this launch party for this new app and the app store wasn't approving the app. So we were going to launch on this day and we like had no app and I was like this is over. Like there's no way. I remember sitting in my office in our little co-working space underneath my desk covering my head in my jacket and crying and just being like the last two years have been for nothing and I went to bed and I woke up the next morning and the app had been approved and like I just there's so many little moments like that where I feel like we just made it with the skin of our teeth.

This was late 2014 and what happened was a reporter who worked for... I was writing an article I think for the New York Times reached out to me because she had downloaded Hinge and the very first person who showed up she'd liked and matched with and fallen in love with and she's like how did you do this? like your algorithm is magic. And we met for an interview in Madison Square Park in New York, right near where our office was. And we have a standard interview and we're finishing up and we're getting up and she's like, 'One last question. Have you ever been in love?' And I was like, 'Well, once a long time ago, but I didn't realize it until it was too late.' She's like, 'Well, you got to tell me the story.' And so we sat down. She turned off the tape recorder. I told her the story of Kate and she's like, 'Listen, I have to tell you something.' And she had this like very parallel story to mine where they didn't end up together, but they should have. And then they found each other 20 years later. And she realized at that point like she'd wish she'd been with this other person. And she's like, 'Listen, I don't regret my life. Like, I love my kids.' And at the same time, if I could go back and do it, I would go back. And she's like, 'You can't make the same mistake I did.' And I was like, 'Listen, it's definitely too late. She lives on another continent. She's getting married in a couple months.' Oh, wow. And it's over. But she inspired me and through like a strange turn of events, I ended up flying over to Switzerland and reaching out to Kate.

Well, if you really want the full story, it was I had that going around in the back of my head like I should go over there and I was headed over to London for the launch party of Hinge in the UK. And I thought she still lived in London, but she had moved to Switzerland. I wasn't going to reach out to her cuz I hadn't reached out to her in whatever. Not since we talked that four years ago. Yeah. And a couple days before I was leaving, I happened to run into her best friend from college. And she's like, I think you should reach out to her. Like I just have this feeling like you should. And so I sent her a note and I asked if she'd be willing to chat. And she said, yeah, let's talk this Friday and we can talk on the phone. And I said, 'Okay.' And then I went to the airport and I bought a plane ticket to Switzerland. And then she said, 'Okay, I'm ready to like talk now.' I'm like, 'Great.' Cuz I'm going through immigration right now in Zurich.

Yeah. I told you a flare for the dramatic going back to me love and doing anything for love.

I had no idea. I was so nervous. I don't know what I was thinking honestly. Like it was such a crazy thing to do and I was so nervous. I was like I kept like going up to the bathroom, I was like throwing up in the bathroom. I was so nervous and scared of like what was I doing? I knew we would see each other and I was kind of convinced like we'll see each other, we'll laugh this off and I'm sure she'll like go off and live her life and I'll go live mine, but at least we got to have a little bit of closure. But that's not what happened. We met up in a coffee shop and talked for I don't know 7, 8, 9 straight hours. And at the end of that weekend, she's like, 'I'm going to call off the wedding and come back.' And she did and moved back to New York into my little 300 foot apartment in the West Village after we hadn't seen each other for almost eight years to the day. And we still knew that it was there and we were willing to take a chance. Well, she was willing to take a chance.

Yeah, I think we found the song shortly after she came back and lyrics just spoke to us. It was just like a sweet song. We had it played at our wedding. It is just about like when you know that you found your person, it feels like you've always known each other and that you would go to any distance to be with that person. And we literally did. And so, yeah, I think it was just like a song that really spoke to us both.

The next line is, 'I told you if you called, I'd come running.' And I think that that was just kind of like hit it.

I've always said this, like I think that you create the one, you don't necessarily find the one. If you're out there like looking to find the one, I think you'll miss it. And Kate and I made each other the one because we invested so much early in our relationship and we like built it, you know, over the last 22 years and now it feels like the one. But I think you invest to create and build that feeling. That's what I say and I mean that and that is the advice I give to most people. And at the same time, like there does feel something almost cosmic about what brought us together. And if it weren't for her and it weren't for our relationship, like Hinge wouldn't exist, which also is kind of like a funny thing to think about.

It's really weird to think about like the butterfly effects of all the little things that had to happen in order for us to meet and us to break up and Hinge to get created. And now because of Hinge, right, there's like literally millions of couples that wouldn't be together, millions of babies that wouldn't have been born. And then think about the ripple effect of all that in the world and what's happening in the world because of all those relationships.

Yeah, it's something I think just to be almost in awe of. It's just a wild thing to think about.

Oh my gosh. Well, first of all, we didn't even know that that was happening. I found out that that was occurring on literally the last day of filming because that reporter had been called by the actress who was playing her, Katharine Keener, and wanted to talk to her about her character. And so she called me and she's like, 'You're not going to believe this, but like they're turning your story into this like TV series.' And I'm like, 'Oh, really amazing.' She's like, 'Dev Patel is playing you.' I'm like, 'Oh, cool.' And she's like, 'And it's filming right now in Gowanus.' And I'm like, I'm sorry, what? And so Kate and I like jump in an Uber and we drive over to the set and try to walk onto the set and they're like, excuse me, like who are you? And we're like, well, we're like, who are you? We're the real Justin and Kate? And they let us come on set and set us up and like let us watch the filming of it. And they definitely took some liberties with the story. Kate would like to correct the record that she never cheated on me, which is an embellishment of the story. Yeah, but you know it's surreal. Like the whole thing has been surreal and just a wild adventure.

Yeah. So then Kate and I had our first kid. We have two now back in 2019. And when we would put him to bed every night, we would play this song. You know, things were hectic at the time, especially with Hinge. And there's just a moment like a reminder just to like slow down and remember that these days are just like the sweetest. And the days we'll look back on and remember as like some of the best of our lives. Even though like in the day running a company or changing an infant's diapers and you know waking up at 2 in the morning or whatever can be stressful and at the same time like it's just such a sweet time in life. And so we just did that to remind ourselves and just reset our nervous systems at the end of each day.

We like we got sick of the song eventually, although we still play it now. But our little girl is definitely like a wilder soul than our boy. She definitely got I would say Kate's and my more stubborn and persistent sides.

Sounds like your son was born in 2019, so I guess he's sixish. Have you guys talked to him or your kids about how you met? I mean, I know he's still pretty young, but have they heard like a version of your story?

You probably found it over time and I think you go through enough ups and downs and you realize that like downs always are temporary and ups are always temporary and you can just stop like gripping so hard and let things flow a little bit. And I think I've just learned how to be a bit more easeful and I think that's been a learned skill for sure. I don't think I was always like this in college. I still have my moments.

Thanks for having me. Really appreciate it. Definitely a journey.