MBA Executive Speaker Series - Sreeni Kutam

First of all, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. If I can make it, anybody else can make it. Trust me. So my story: undergraduate computer science, surprise, I'm from India with an undergrad degree in computer science, so there you go. Then I ended up in HR. The story was I started teaching right after I graduated from computer science in India, teaching computer science. I used to teach digital architecture, compiler design, software programming, all those crazy stuff. And then I got a real job. I was paid really less teaching job, so I'm like, all right, that won't work, so I got to find a better paying job. And I did. I was hired by a steel plant in India to do software programming. And then I was contacted by a recruiter from Hammond, Indiana to come to the US to do computer programming at a foreign steel plant. So I landed Chicago here August 1st, 1994. No return ticket, 50 bucks in the pack, actually 46 dollars, the guy spent four dollars in Switzerland buying a chocolate. So 46 dollar one-way ticket, I don't know where I'm going. I landed, the person that's supposed to pick me up did not show up. So I waited two hours and the person showed up and said, 'Ah, the traffic on I-94 was so bad today.' I'm like, I have no idea what you're talking about, but I understand. So that's how my life began in the US. And I was living in Hammond, Indiana, and Purdue has a campus in Hammond, Indiana, literally two miles away from where I was living. And I didn't have a social life. I'm like, oh, I might just go get myself a master's degree. So I joined part-time MBA Purdue Hammond campus. And I graduated luckily in a couple of years or so. And then a consulting company hired me. And my first project was in a Giant Eagle grocery chain in Pittsburgh. So they're kind of like a ShopRite, their corporate office, and they told me, 'Help HR figure out how to digitize their stuff.' That's how I got into HR through my technology and management channel. And I started helping HR. I understood what 401k was then, how beneficial healthcare looks, and all of that, and union contracts, how to automate union contracts. So that's how I came from behind the scenes of HR operations and then tried to understand the HR function. I worked in Europe for a couple of years as an HR consultant. And I moved to New Jersey 2005 working for Medco Health Solutions to run their HR operations which includes payroll, benefits, all other systems. Then I joined ADP as an HR strategy person and after a few years I became CHRO. So going back to my opening statement, if I can make it, anybody else can make it. I was hardly speaking English when I moved to US, not that I actually speak any better now. But my team helps write my communications, they're about fixing my grammatical mistakes and spelling errors even today. But the example is, you know, it's with some right people backing you and with some energy you put towards the universe, things could happen to you. We'll talk more about that. I'm not an outlier. Statistically speaking, there is ample evidence that with the right environment, right skill set, with some luck, everybody can make it.

You know, I'm one of those people, I believe in destiny. It's so old-style Eastern philosophy. And I also remember Steve Jobs talking about his 2005 Stanford convocation speech. And he says that when he went to Reed College back in the day and he took calligraphy classes because he got bored out of studying his regular curriculum. And when he started Apple Computer, he used the calligraphy lessons he learned in the Reed College to build the first Macintosh fonts. So the point there is, when you look back in your life, the dots are always connected. No surprise in my life when I look back, the dots: technology, MBA, and technology entry point into HR. So when opportunities came for me, like there were some opportunities for me to go into marketing, but I felt like humans, I always loved complex problem solving coming from the engineering background. And I felt like humans, an interesting problem-solving opportunity for me. Certainly complex, it's really complex. So that's the thing that actually attracted me to HR. It's a problem-solving mentality and the most interesting problem out there in HR I felt like builds the DNA for an organization. It's not seen but felt. So why can't I be the architect of the DNA of an organization? So that's what keeps me in HR and that's what we should call our HR programs, the architects of the DNA of the organization.

I definitely evolved, it's not the same. So typical to any organization, what happens in organizations is the best performing person generally gets promoted to be a leader without actually thinking whether the person has leadership skills or not. Best salesperson becomes the sales leader generally speaking, best programmer becomes a programming manager. That's how I became a manager in the programming side. And I really struggled at that time because I was like, 'Why didn't you do this? It's so easy for me because I've been doing it for so long and why are you taking so long? Let me help you.' So I was like digging in and helping code the person. I'm like, I only have eight hours in an office, I cannot micromanage like that. I realized I have enough self-awareness, I'm working on it. Delegation is a skill that I learned as I matured in the leadership. And the second aspect is diverse opinions add strength to the team. So in HR we talk about diversity and inclusion a lot. So when we say that, it's not the, you know, the color of your skin, it's important, but the most important thing is actually the rainbow of ideas. Each of us, if you think about this way, I say this all the time, my team knows this, look at our face, it's a one by one cube, right? How many combinations are there? It's not a trick question, seven billion combinations in the world, right? That's the population. Each of us are generally unique in that small space, right? So as a leader, as a manager, the diverse backgrounds, the nature, the context, how we grew, the environment makes us. So having us surrounded in a team that has diverse backgrounds gives the leader an edge. The edge is looking at a problem from multiple angles. You're actually statistically increasing your odds of better decision making if you have diverse backgrounds and views around you. That's something else I learned along the way. Third, which is kind of related to it, is surround yourself with people that are complementary. So as a leader in my team, I'm more analytically minded, Deb nodding her head because of my background, that's my strength. I bring to problem solving from that angle. That brings to the table ADP's history as well as deep HR knowledge, human-centric knowledge, what would work, how to frame the problem, how to communicate it. Then we also have technology people, we also have people that know compliance. So the diverse experiences and complementary skill set around a team makes me a better leader, I make better decisions. So delegation, diversity of thoughts, and complementary skill set is something I observed would give me an edge as a leader as I matured in that leadership spectrum.

That is true. And leadership is, you know, similar to I talked about earlier at the dinner time, it's a noble profession. Teaching is a noble profession. Leadership is a noble profession because it's an enabling function. A professor, a teacher enables all of us, unlocks the potential in us, right? I still remember my ninth grade math teacher, I wrote about him at ADP leadership blogs, my ninth grade math teacher who introduced love of problem solving to me. I was so bad at math until that point, but he unlocked that potential in me. And then I ended up as an engineer and I am here. So there's so many shoulders that I stand on in my path towards this career I have. So my point is leadership is not only about you managing people, leadership is about, you know, inspiring people. Sometimes as a leader myself, I have to know when to lead from front, when to lead from the side, and when to lead from the back. You have to know that it comes with experience and you have to adapt accordingly. So it's, you're called leader because there are followers. Without followers, you are not a leader. It's as simple as that, that's the pure definition of a leader. And that followership happens either you have a hierarchical relationship in an organization or you inspire people with ideas. Right, Martin Luther King, you can say he's a leader. And you have, you know, your frontline leader if you're working in an organization, he or she is a leader. So it comes in so many shapes and forms. For example, the best leader I know in my life is my grandma. The best, considering what she went through and what she gave to the people, and she can quickly assess a person in five minutes, God-given ability, and she gives the feedback right between the eyes, boom. You like it a lot, don't like it, you can ask my wife when she first met my grandma. And she came away saying that, 'Oh my god, if grandma is all right.' So anyhow, leadership is so different.

It's hard to do. It's very hard to do. We have to also recognize that we have to be practical about these things. It's not 100% all about meaning, it's not all about empowerment. We have to be practical and say sometimes it is transactional, that's the nature of the business. But any relationship is two-directional. Any relationship, personal, professional, it has to be giving and taking. It has to be value-adding, otherwise that relationship will not survive the test of time. So between an employer and employee, so I do the work, I get paid, okay, that's the transactional aspect of that. But to keep employees in an organization, you've got to do more than that. And that extra aspect we can call it values-based or things that tie the person to the organization at an emotional level. And the tricks of the trade is what I learned is organizations, people leave organizations because of the leader most of the time. So the bond that manifests for an individual is through that frontline leader, that's the key. So us as architects, we focus a lot of time building that bond between the leader and the individual because the leader is the representation of everything of the organization.

Yep, the direct manager. So it's really, really important in that aspect. And in the changed circumstances of post-pandemic, what our research shows is that flexibility is so important. Flexibility doesn't mean that how many days you work from home, that's important too, but flexibility of the number of hours when they work during the day also becoming important. So if you are a single mother, the hours, those regular office hours may not work in that context. So we tell our leaders, in fact I send communication to our frontline leaders, lead with understanding the context and then make a decision what works for you and for the individual. So we just gave a framework for decision making but not necessarily, oh, everybody has to work eight to five. That is empowerment to that leader when that leader makes the decision at the ground level on that flexibility question with that individual. That is practicing that empowerment at the ground level and that's building the culture right there and then. That's just one example. But I also see a macro trend when you talk about gig economy. We talked about, you know, evolving gig economy back in the day, 2014, 2015. I was afraid about lack of rights for these workers in the gig economy. As an HR practitioner that worried me. What's the impact if more number of people work in gig economy where the full-time employees have health benefits, retirement benefits, and HR help to go to? Yeah, all of that. What about these people working for themselves? Are they on their own? What's the societal impact of who is picking the tab for that? Because the issues are going to be the same, the mental wellness, right, all of that. However, recently I have seen Starbucks began to organize, Amazon began to organize. I kind of said at that time, if you remember the speech I made in 2014, I was like, these empowerment things are like a pendulum. Like they go from, 'Oh, you know, we have to collective bargaining, oh no, it's bad, let's not do that,' but then again, 'Oh, okay.' Anything at extreme is bad. We know that living in America now, right? So center is not a bad place to be. Being balanced is not a bad place to be. Evaluating a situation from multiple angles, come to your most reasonable solution is the best way. But in highly charged environments, it's very difficult to do. My comment about these trends I'm seeing is the individual rights might be coming back a little bit as a focus item for all HR people to pay attention to.

I believe all of us need to be lifelong learners, whether we like it or not, if we want to make progress in our professional career. Because, you know, you're all graduating at some point very soon, you go in the real world, start working, but the things that you learn here, they give you fundamentals and then you need, it's like learning pure math, but you have to apply that in the real world, right? And the real world is so complex. I was talking to Michelle about, hey, you know, I can see integration of marketing techniques into HR, I can see behavioral economics coming into HR. So you have to be an integrator of all the knowledge that exists out there and take only what is applicable. But information is so much out there, knowledge is so much, it's hard. So you have to keep at it, you have to keep at it. I believe in it because I actually enjoy learning. That's a design flaw that I have. And with that biased view, in our organization what we're trying to do within HR, for example, because we kind of architect these solutions, so in HR what we try to do right now is every Wednesday we use behavioral economics nudge principle. We block on our calendars Wednesday 11 a.m., third Wednesday, invest in yourself hour. Just invest in yourself. We don't tell you what you want to study, it's up to you. But you could tell us what you learned and you can share with others what you learn. So it's creating that culture, it's taking that principle of investing in yourself, operationalizing it, and creating a clean loop process to create the energy behind it. And we started to do that. And we also, first Wednesday, that one hour, I started to teach this principle and how we should think about it about business and whatnot. And upcoming next Wednesday, one of my team members teaching sales and how sales commissions would work. So it's just teaching leaders how to become teachers. So that's the operational concept. Because once everybody sees, 'Oh, leader is teaching, they're interested in it,' everybody will follow. Then logically, rest of the ADP organization, we are trying to implement this concept of once a month invest in yourself for an hour, whatever you want to learn and share with others. So we'll see where we go from there. And we just did a survey with 3,000 of ADP population, part of the press. The number one item employees of ADP want ADP to do to keep them inside ADP is investing in upskilling programs and upscaling. Yeah. I was like, they're not asking for promotions, of course it is there, but the number one item is make us more worthwhile, invest in us. So the question for majority is, okay, how do we do that, right? How do we architect it? So I think it's an exciting time honestly to talk about it.

It has to be value-oriented, meaning there got to be something for the other person that you can provide value. Otherwise, you know, it won't really work. Networking helps a lot, but I was an introvert, I am an introvert. I'm only doing it because they said there is free food. So you have to have something to give to the organization, right? It's a barter system at a pure crude level. And then important people have to know what you can offer. You just doing your job, it's only part of the equation. Important people have to know what you can bring to the table. So that's why the networking aspect is really, really important. Because most of the career decisions are made when you are not in the room. Trust me. You're not in the room and people are saying yes or no for the promotion or for the hiring decision, what not. So the more people that are in the room that can talk nicely of you, the more probability you will have landing the job or getting that promotion. So how do you do that? Why would people say good things about you? Because you help them. It's as simple as that. So the most important principle is you got to be good at what you do, you got to be the best at what you do, whatever you do.

Number two, make sure important people know that you are good at it. And third, you're helping more people in the journey. In the end, if you're unselfish, the more you give, the more you get.

It's exactly that. Because I have this habit of learning new things. When I was in HR, I used to go sit down with business people like Barrett who runs sales, commercial operations. You would see me at the pantry or water station. I'm like, 'Barrett, how is it going in sales? Or how is this quarter looking?' I ask questions to learn what they're doing, and then I offer whatever I know to see if Barrett can use some of those things so that Barrett would be successful. So when Barrett is in a position to say a good word about me, he would say a good word. But I learned something again: that relationship has to be bidirectional. Barrett got something from me, and I got something from Barrett, and we both will speak positively of each other.

So that's how it worked for me, honestly. But I was also very... I tell the story: when I was a senior director at a company, I wanted to be a vice president for so bad. I worked really hard for four years. At last, I got it. And I was driving home to tell my wife. I stopped at the signal. My brain was telling me, 'When are you going to be a senior vice president?' Then I realized that that's the road that I don't want to take. And the question became to me really is, 'What are you going to do now you are a vice president? Rather than you trying to become senior vice president, how about you help the senior directors to become vice presidents?' And that framing changed my orientation towards my career. I became transformed, honestly. And the more I started to talk about others and their careers and how they can be better at what they do, amazingly, my career velocity increased after that. So that's where the principle came for me: the more you give, the more you get.

I think problem solving, root cause analysis, bringing quantitative skills to qualitative problems. I can go on.

Okay. We all know we're in the great resignation phase. But how do I forecast who is at risk of leaving at ADP? That's a qualitative problem. 'Oh my god, people are leaving ADP.' But the quantitative way of looking at it is: can I quantify the risk that exists? But how do I do that? What are the leading indicators of that? Is it the strength of the bond between... Okay, what's the hypothesis for the risk? You start with the hypothesis. It's like a science experiment. You start with the hypothesis. What's the hypothesis? You're paid low, you're stressed out at your work, you don't have strong relationships. Guess what? You are at risk category. Okay, now how am I going to quantify the stress in the work? How am I going to quantify the strength of the relationship the person has with the leader? All of that. That's an example.

Correct.

It's really important. By the way, I started a question when I started at ADP. I said, 'Hey, how do you know people like us? HR?' Yeah, I heard stories at the dinner. 'Oh my god, I try to avoid HR. I don't want to talk to HR in my entire career and life. I don't want to talk to HR people.' Oh great. How do you know where we stand? So we started doing NPS. Now I have a way to say, do you guys know what NPS is? It's basically kind of like, you know, voting off the island kind of thing. So NPS is like zero to, I don't know, minus 100 to plus 100. Right? It's... but we ask a 10-point scale whether you're a promoter or you're a detractor. It's kind of like up or down kind of thing. But anyhow, we started with that inquiry. We know how we're doing there. Second is, I also said, 'Hey, out of thousands of people we hired, which channel do we hire from? Experienced hires, campus hires, LinkedIn hires? Which channel gives us the best performing candidates?' Why is that important? Well, if I know that, I'm going to pay it there. So I'll have a better productivity for my recruiters. That's another example. Third one would be pay equity. How are African-American females paid relative to, you know, white associates? Okay, is that statistically significant by controlling for the variables, tenure, experience, etc.? Asking all those questions gives us... well, why is that important? That's really, really important for the culture. If that thing doesn't work, it's a problem. Oh, what about stress? What's the mental well-being strength of ADP's associates? I haven't solved that yet, but I'll work on it. But you know what I'm going with this: the data-based decisions, the quantitative... this is what happens when you put an engineer in the HR role. Like, you try to put a quadratic equation for everything. But to balance that, I have that double exchange. You really cannot say that. Like, why not? Because... so it's the complementary skill set. We work very well in helping ADP figure things out. So those are some examples.

Love.

Thank you very much.

Thank you, thank you very much. I never won a prize in my entire college life, so thank you so much. You are the best college I ever attended, making up for childhood.

Oh, thank you. How are we running the Q&A? Are you running it here? Yes, okay.

Look, there is no smoke without the fire. It's on us. It's on us. We have to take some responsibility for it. But I think people like you coming into the function is going to help us market it better. But the work is really meaningful work. Our day... I would be going from a strategic discussion, like which markets we should enter, what type of people we need to enter into the market. Next meeting would be somebody that is not performing in the company. They are better off outside of ADP than inside ADP, because that is the best thing for them. So the day is filled with a combination of strategic, tactical, all the way up to, 'These cafeterias are serving free lunch tomorrow to attract our people.' So the spectrum of the responsibilities is really interesting also. And then for those doubting Thomases, have them come and speak to me. HR is, as I said, it's really true. It's the most complex problem that exists out there. And we should try to figure this thing out for humanity. And I can tell you, as I said, it's an enabling function for the entire organization. So without HR, there is no capital structures, and millions of people, you know, won't be out of poverty. So that's the bigger picture.

Yeah, it's a big... By the way, there are marketing majors here. I could use some marketing for HR. There you go. I'm telling you, communication... I have a leadership model, I didn't get to talk about it. Every leader should be very clear about the vision, the strategy to use to get to that destination, the vision you describe, with right people following you. And the most important thing is communication. If you do not know how to communicate, it will be very bad for you as a leader. And I'm talking about marketing and communications coming into HR. I mean, Doug, you and I talked about during the pandemic, for 60,000 people at ADP, when all of us in one day, I sent a note saying everybody work from home. Gone. Next day, gone. How do I keep the organization together? And we started writing emails. The best way, like, all right, send 3,000 emails every Friday. I started writing emails every Friday. And then somebody sent me an email later, I think three weeks later, they're like, 'Srini, I hear from you more than my own mom. Stop it.' In the next Friday email, I actually said that to people. So HR has a bad reputation because some of the communications, the language we use, is so like corporate. It's not human, even though we are human resources. So language, for those that are professors in language, I don't even know if that's the right department, but language plays an important role in building relationships. And HR professionals need to understand that. And so we should hire people that are specialists in language to come and help us to do this right. So with such a wide variety of needs dealing with humans, it's a fantastic field. I know there is AI, ML, and you know, blockchain, and I can teach blockchain, but I cannot teach human things. So that's why I'm here to learn.

Awesome.

Make sure they say something good about you in there. Sergio DeLuca, do you think you're graduating this May? You should tell us which role you applied for, so we will talk.

Nice, yeah.

At the beginning of the pandemic, me and along with my boss, we had to make a decision to let go of a few hundred people because our business was drying up. So the choices were: keep all that exists right now. This is around April 2020, right at the beginning of the pandemic. If we don't do that, what if the situation becomes bad? Our investors, because we're a public company, right? We work for the investors. So if we keep all the people, the people would be happy, but the investors would be unhappy because we are not going to make the margins that we promised. The margins would be... which means the stock price is going to go down. And if that goes down, obviously, we have a lot of other things that's going to be impacted. How do we make the decision? It's about making some bets. I mean, the problem was bigger, but we ended up letting people go. Fewer than in the end we thought we would need to do it. We also did some furloughs. We asked for volunteers, etc., etc. Those decisions are never easy. And in HR, I have to make those decisions. Some people, by the way, we stopped hiring. So I have recruiters, I have to tell them, 'Hey, you know, there's no work. I got to put you on furlough.' Or some of the contractors I had to let go. As a leader, to feel that pain... it's easy for me to say to my team, 'Hey, do that.' I felt a moral responsibility to actually call those people after their leader told them, 'Hey, look, you have no job here.' I called them. Not that it's a selfish act on my part, when I reflect, it made me feel better that I did it. But I rather look at the person in the eye and say, 'This is what I'm doing to you. This is the impact.' But I need to feel it, so I will never in the future make those decisions lightly. So some things, sometimes you have to do it as a leader, but make sure it's an opportunity for you to be in such a way that you learn from it. And we have a process afterwards to touch base, make sure once we start hiring, can we bring them back in, etc., etc. But luckily, the market immediately, the V-shaped recovery in the economy, now we're in the situation we can't... like, we're like, 'All right, can you spell ADP? You're hired.' So... But hard decisions in HR is about people issues, right? The happy day is when we do our merit increases, bonuses. We are like dancing in the hallways. 'Oh my god, three percent!' Right now, there's three percent inflation, is six percent, but you get the drift. The happy decisions are relatively easy. It's about, is it three percent or four percent? Okay, you can have the debate all day. But when you talk about, is it 300 people or 400 people? It's 100 people, 100 families. There are four dependents at an average for each person. Those are big, hard decisions in HR. You need courage to make that balance and act. And you have to advise your CEO as your general what to do in those. I mean, these are not just business decisions, these are people decisions. And then once the CEO makes the call, you have to communicate it to the organization. So these are hard. But I grew much as a person as a result of that. So as I always say, COVID-19 period is the most stressful period for HR, but also it's the most satisfying period.

It's a combination of things. Outside of the U.S., we have done many surveys to understand what the perspectives are. Inside the U.S., we did some focus groups, and I personally did monthly basis touch base throughout the COVID to say, 'Hey, what's happening?' Managers, individual contributors, to say, 'Hey.' We piloted quite a bit of things along the way. So we said, first two days a week, what happens? On a volunteer basis, we basically said offices are open. Because by the way, sometimes we have this view here that working from home is good, but trust me, for example, in India and the Philippines, where they're joint family systems, there are five people living in one bedroom. For them, working from home is hard. They can't focus. There is no office room within the walls, right? So they would like to come to office. So there are multiple reasons, culturally also, why we need to open the offices and say, voluntarily, if you feel like you can come to the office, we did that. And we have seen how that... if we had like 10, 20, that basically came in. In the service, we saw almost 70, they said, 'There's no way we're going back five days a week.' Oh, like, all right, that's very clear. And I was telling somebody earlier that we started talking to other organizations to say, 'Hey, what are you guys thinking? What's the market look like?' And then we said, originally we start with two days, we will increase it by a day depending on how the COVID-19 is, you know, up, down, etc. And we never even increased it. We stayed at two days for almost 12 months. And then after the Omicron, everything is done, then we went back and we said three days in the office, two days at home. But which three days? We let the team leader work with each individual, decide what works for the team and for that individual. And we also told them, in some, the context is important, right? So if you have a person that's taking care of elderly parents and they might be at a more immunocompromised risk, then we just told the manager, 'Hey, you know, you let the person work from home.' So there are so many varieties of these rules that happen at the ground level. All we said is 3-2 generally speaking, but there is a lot of flexibility within that. We'll see. It's been only like four weeks, so who knows how it's going to fluctuate. But we are doing all kinds of stuff, like free food on Wednesdays, because we felt like having people together three days, we should make it meaningful and fun. Meaningful in a way that being together, the productivity should increase, innovation should increase. But it should also be fun. We said, 'Hey, you know, bring the pizza, have social gatherings,' you know, of course, safety regulations and whatnot. But the principle is meaningful and fun, and see how the culture evolves from there. So that's how the process worked, but it's still evolving. I don't know how this would be in a month from now, who knows with all these variants.

You know, when you have, you know, 15 people together, there are 15 opinions. Yeah. And there are, you know, few people in the executive team like, 'Let's get everybody five days.' And there are executives in the group that say, 'Yeah, leave them where they are, happy with it.' So it's finding that middle ground. I think as humans, we always, you know, we talked about Daniel Kahneman's approach, loss aversion. So is there a way that we could... I think human beings are incrementally more comfortable with change than big change. So either way, incrementalism for big organizations seems to be the mantra. Unless you are Twitter founder, you can do whatever you want. It's always exceptions.

Well, we are a beneficiary, net beneficiary of that trend. Because ADP, basically, our value to the employer who contracts with us is: you outsource your payroll to us, or your HR services or HR systems, we'll deliver value to you rather than you doing everything in-house. Right? That's really our business. That's why we started in, you know, Clifton, 1949. So I think we've been a net beneficiary of that. Within our operational units, you know, very similar to other organizations, we have 10,000 people in India, we have 2,000 people in the Philippines, we have 2,000 people in Brazil. So I think capital flows, various advantages for the capital, that's fundamental theory, right? So but we're not outliers when it comes to taking advantage of the labor arbitrage and the skill arbitrage sometimes too, and the talent supply and demand. So we have taken good care of that. And we'll see. But supply, you know, we talked about supply chain issues and as a result, inflation, what not. But there is also the supply chain issues when you come to immigration. So a country's GDP is simply the number of people times the productivity. So if... I mean, that's what you're all MBA students, so I hope you know that, right? So if the number of people go down in a country, either you have to produce more or your GDP is not going to grow. So as a country's leader, people have to think about what that means. Either people have to make more babies or get more people from somewhere else. So immigration plays a key role at a country level. But at an organization level, again, you got to do what works for you to make sure that the balance between the number of people and the productivity levels are important. So we don't want to go into the economic side of it, but you get the point.