How to Choose the Right Hotel Brand - Dimitris Manikis, President EMEA, Wyndham - PHG Hotel Advisors

One of the things that I loved about their brand was that breakfast. I saw backpackers, I saw young couples, I saw business people with ties and suits. I saw families and I said that is very interesting. It's a brand that has appeal to a wider audience and not just one segment. At the same time, you bring technology advancements, you bring negotiation power, you bring loyalty that wasn't there before. So there is a reason why brands exist. So you have to remember you have different owner segments and you have to talk to them in different ways. The growth of the white label operators, the growth of the professional managers, the growth of talent in our industry has created an opportunity where franchise now is the prevailing model even for those who in the past said, 'Oh, we will never franchise.' Why? Because there's talent that takes and looks after all the other things that are happening in the industry. And the more offices become hotels, the more it becomes evident.

Good morning. Good morning. Beautiful, beautiful day. Rainy day in Madrid, but beautiful.

I'm very well. Very well. Lovely to be here. Thank you.

Correct.

Look, I just realized we've known each other for 23 years and we both haven't grown any hair since then, which is quite disturbing and pathetic, but anyway, it is what it is. My job is President of EMEA. So it's Europe, Middle East, Eurasia and Africa. About 750 properties in 45 countries. 95% franchise. And out of the 25, 26 brands that Wyndham has, we've got about 11 of those brands in my region. So we are a brand company, we are a franchise company. Although in EMEA we still manage about 20 properties predominantly in the Middle East, but if you ask me what we do, we're a brand franchisor for the hospitality industry and we are leaders in certain areas or segments of our business.

I cover... it's an interesting geography. We call it Eurasia but it's actually India and the whole region around India and the CIS. So that means Kazakhstan, Armenia, Uzbekistan and Georgia and all of that. Obviously we're not in Russia because we left Russia when the conflict with Ukraine started. So CIS excluding Russia, Europe, Middle East and the Indian region.

Look, Wyndham is a very interesting company, right? We went public about eight years ago or seven and a half years ago. We were part of a bigger company called Wyndham Worldwide when we were together there a few years back. Out of the 25, 26 brands that we have, 20 we've actually acquired. So we are a company that knows how to acquire brands. We're a company that knows where the gaps are, understands the gaps and goes and finds the right brands to buy and grow. When you're buying a brand, so you're right, Vienna House is the latest acquisition that we've done after COVID. We found an interesting brand in Central Europe. A brand that was more on the three, four-star and it was a design-driven brand. What I mean by that, you hear a lot of people talk about lifestyle, right? But what is really lifestyle? Your lifestyle is different than mine. The people who listen to us, their lifestyle is different. So we found a brand whose main architecture, brand architecture, was around design. Nicely designed rooms, nicely designed hotels, nicely designed concepts and lobbies. And we didn't have that brand in EMEA. We have some really great legacy brands. Our Ramada brand is an amazing brand, it's 50% of my portfolio actually in all the tiers. We have some really great brands like the Wyndham Garden or we've got our Days Inn and Super 8 that are growing across Europe, but we didn't have something, especially in Central Europe, that was design-led. If you look at our Vienna Houses, everything is different but they all have a common theme which is design, something that appeals to different generations. And the other thing that I loved about our brand, and I spend a lot of time visiting hotels, is the client mix. You know, certain people in our industry, they put customers in segments. They say, 'Oh, Dimitris and his family only travels there or this and that.' One of the things that I loved about their brand was that breakfast, because you only see the people that stay in the hotel at breakfast, right? This is when everybody comes in. I saw backpackers. I saw young couples. I saw business people with ties and suits. I saw families. And I said, 'That is very interesting. It's a brand that has appeal to a wider audience and not just one segment, backpackers or the Generation Z or whatever.' That to me meant a lot. And it was a great opportunity for us to buy a brand in Central Europe that has so many different appeals into various segments. So it has been a great acquisition.

It is a conversion brand. Remember, it is very difficult today to build, especially in Europe. It's one of these challenges that real estate is expensive, interest rates are high. So it's a brand easy to convert. Why? Because it has freedom. It has flexibility. Our standards, or the book, you know, when we look at our standards book or our brand standards, they're very flexible. You need to have five or six signature items to be a Vienna House, but we allow the freedom for the owner with very little capex to adjust the hotel to what the client needs and what the city needs. If you look at, we have quite a few beautiful hotels in Poland for example. If you look at them, they're different. But they all appeal to the same concept: a design-led midscale property.

Yeah, I mean we have a team here that obviously we need to make sure that we're doing the right thing and we've chosen something that makes sense. We have great help from the US. We have a big M&A team in the US. Again, bearing in mind that we like to buy brands. So we have a great M&A team. They give us advice. But the main drive is: do we have a similar brand in our portfolio? If we buy their brand, will it cannibalize our existing brands? Are we going to be stealing from the existing clients? Are we going to be putting clients in the same city or in the same region uncomfortable because we just added another brand? All of these things that need to be answered before we actually go ahead and say, 'You know what, that's a brand that we really need to have.' Because one of the challenges that we have in hospitality, as you have probably seen, you have one company has five different brands in 5 kilometers. You have to avoid cannibalization, right? So all of these things get into the mix. Vienna House made a lot of sense for us and that's how we did it.

Yes, they're different owners, different operators.

Look, every time there is a change in people's lives, people feel uncomfortable, right? You'll hear a lot of people say change is good. Yes, change is good, but it's tough. Your body changes, your life changes, your business. Yes, we adapt and change is inevitable but it's not easy to digest it. So because we are experts in buying brands and because we've done it before, we have a really smooth approach, right? You don't come in as a big American company that just bought another brand. We have a great presence in EMEA. We have a team. We have an office in Germany. We have offices in various countries. And that created a lot of comfort into those owners to do business with the right brand, with the right company. At the same time, you bring technology advancements, you bring negotiation power, you bring procurement power, you bring loyalty that wasn't there before. So there is a reason why brands exist. It's clear, right? We exist for a reason. Now the question is, you cannot do everything in one box. You have to think that what the Vienna House guys need, what the Ramada guys need, they're probably different needs. For example, in Turkey, I'll give you an example. We have 140 hotels. We almost have 138 different owners. Here in Europe, you've got more institutional owners. You've got private equity. You have family offices. So you have to remember you have different owner segments and you have to talk to them in different ways.

Everything has to be redone from scratch. 100%. But again, thinking of two things: you come in with humility, you're very humble, you come in because at the end of the day they're the ones who are delivering the experience. You know, a lot of people are asking me why do you talk a lot about the owners at conferences and at meetings. And we have a concept in Wyndham, we call it 'owner first philosophy.' I always believed if the owner is happy, which is very difficult because I haven't met a lot of happy owners, they all want more, but if the owner is financially viable, then the guest has a great experience. It's as we say in Greece, we say 'happy wife, happy life.' If the owner is happy relatively, then he can provide or his team can provide a great service to the guest. And I'll bring you back to COVID. What was the first thing that all the brands did during COVID? For the owners to survive, because the owners wouldn't survive. We didn't have a product. We didn't have guests. So that to me is my number one priority: how the owner feels comfortable and survives financially and grows so he can provide a great experience for the guests.

Correct. Correct. Of course. Does it take time? It takes time but it takes two to tango, as they say. As I said, owners always want more. I've never been in a budget meeting or any meeting with owners who said, 'You know what? I don't want anymore. I'm happy. I don't want anymore. You know, let's have a coffee, go for lunch, and everything is fine.' No, owners want more. And it's right. It's right. It's their money. You know, in the franchise world, one of the things that I realized early enough in my career is that we manage and we administrate other people's money. You know, yes, you've got the private equity guys, you've got the, but then you have the other guy, the family guy who spent, I don't know, 30, 40 million of his wealth. He created a hotel. This is the future of his family. You got to care for this guy. You got to make sure that you listen, you got to make sure that you understand where he or she is coming from. Because if you don't, then there's no humility. It's his money. It's his money. At the end of the day, I can portray, I can say whatever I want, but it's his money. And I have to respect that. You know, I have cases where the whole family works in the hotel and you go in and you're welcomed as a member of the family. You know, you have to remember all that. Hospitality is an amazing industry. And it's not just about the guest, it's about the people who deliver the experience and you got to make sure that they're happy. So that to me, as a leader of EMEA for Wyndham, is my number one priority.

Correct. Correct. Yes. Because you get more owners to understand what you do. You get more clients. And one of the interesting things that happened with Vienna House, we're now expanding in other parts of the world. So it wasn't just about Central Europe. We're due to open our first Vienna House in Turkey. We're looking at... we've got some amazing opportunities now. We're going to materialize in '26 in India. These design-led brands resonate a lot with the Indian consumers. We're going into the Middle East and we are about to announce an interesting concept, Vienna House Residences in the Middle East. So it's not just about the brand, it's not just about a hotel, it's about an ecosystem that you're building. And to me that's the exciting part. Yes, we are in Central Europe but we're expanding outside of that remit as well.

Correct, an extended stay product. Yes. Because remember, affinity with... what is the future of a brand? The present and the future. Who decides? The consumer, right? I mean look how many brands were created, where are they today? Nowhere. Why? Because the consumers decided they don't see any value in those brands. The moment you press book, this is where the consumer decides, 'I'm going to stay there versus there.' So for me, brand awareness, making sure that you stay loyal to the brand, make sure that the DNA of the brand remains intact, but most importantly that you've got owners who look after the brand and they invest for the future are the top three, four top priorities after an acquisition or post-acquisition.

Look, the world is changing, right? You remember the days where hotel companies were the owners? We're not the owners anymore. I mean we have 9,800 hotels, I think yesterday, around the world, we own zero. So we... and the same with our partners in the industry, the Marriotts, the Hiltons. We used to manage, we don't manage anymore. We used to do so many different things in hospitality. But what happened, I think other companies have actually grown and created a space where it actually allows us to do certain things differently because they've taken our place. Look at Aimbridge for example. We were at the conference yesterday. I think they manage about 1,200 hotels around the world. The growth of the white label operators, the growth of the professional managers, the growth of talent in our industry has created an opportunity where franchise now is the prevailing model even for those who in the past said, 'Oh, we will never franchise.' Why? Because there's talent that takes and looks after all the other things that are happening in the industry. There are companies that do white label operations, management companies. They are very good talent, general managers. Today, if you're an owner of a hotel, there are some amazing talent out there that you can hire to be your general manager and run a 120, 140-room hotel. The other thing is technology. Technology has actually helped to replicate or replace certain things that in the past you needed a huge team to actually look after, and that is revenue management, the way you do your marketing. You know today marketing is about social media. I don't even can dream what is going to happen when you start booking through chat or through AI and whatever. So if you take all of this into account, franchising sounds like a great option. It sounds like an option where it gives you freedom and it gives you room to play. But why? Only because there are so many other things in the industry that replace what the big brands used to do. It has allowed us to be a better franchise business because so many other things have replaced what we used to do in the past.

Look, there's so many different ways, right? If you look at India, you have a different approach than you have in Greece. If you look at Germany or if you look at Spain, you have a different approach that you would have in the UK. You have a different approach if you are an institutional investor as a family office or a simple man who has a great hotel in Istanbul and wants to make it Ramada or whatever. The good news is because we have local people in all those markets, they understand the culture and the mentality. You know, in the world where we live in a global village, right, we're all global citizens. I believe that the more global we become, the more local you need to be. Why? Because the world is getting bigger but at the same time the needs of those owners are very local. So if you look at the Middle East, right, in the Middle East today, the market where the market is today, it had no comparison to what it was 15 years ago. If we didn't have a local team to monitor those changes and to be able to kind of adjust and adapt to those changes, I wouldn't be able to grow. We have 100 hotels in India. How did we do that? Because we have a great local team that understands the needs of the owners. So to be fair, the owners, they have one common theme. They want more. And they're right to want more because it's their money, it's their property. You know, they come to Wyndham for a reason or they go to other companies for a reason. And we need to make sure that we give them enough comfort that we are the right partners for the future. You know, a franchise, an average franchise deal is 10 to 15 years. I mean in some cases that's more than a marriage. So it's way beyond my tenure at Wyndham. Right. So this is a long-term relationship and unless people feel committed and they feel that you are the right partner to be with, they're not going to do it. So every day is judgment day. Every day that I wake up and I tell my team that all the time. What are you going to do for those owners today? It's judgment day. It's like the moment of truth. Every time you go to the reception, it's another test for that brand. It's the same with us. Every day is a judgment day for our relationship with those owners. So, it's not easy. Because there's so many different things at play. But brands need to be a safe haven. Brands need to be in the world of uncertainty. You know, you open up CNN or BBC every morning and there is another disaster or another curveball. We need to give comfort to the owners that we are the right partners to take their hands and walk this difficult path together. So to me that's my philosophy of service.

Yeah. It's like dating. It's like dating. How do you know she's the right one? Or he's the right one. It's a tough one because between the five or six big hotel companies today or brand companies, we have about 180, 200 brands. I mean that's crazy, right? And we heard in the conference yesterday there are more brands coming. And brands are buying other brands and they bring... I think the consumer is confused and I think the owner equally is confused. Our job is to make sure that when we're at the same table and five minutes ago one of our partners in the industry, another hotel brand was in the same room, you need to give comfort to that owner that you're the right partner. And believe it or not, it's not always money. It's not always about money. It's about trust. It's about that's the guy that is going to pick up the phone or answer the phone when I call. One of the things that, and I'm not saying this to... because I don't want to... this is not a sales call, right? One of the things that people have told me on a personal level is that you actually answer your phone or you answer your emails. It's as simple as that. In a world where we all become distant, as technology brings us together, we become more distant.

Yes, it's about delivery. It's about the essence of the brand. It's about your loyalty scheme and your sales and marketing and your digital campaigns and your technology. Believe it or not, more and more it's about trust. It's about relationships. It's about the feeling-good sentiment that the owner needs to have and the fact that when you need that owner, and he picks up or she picks up the phone, you're going to be there on the other side of the line.

One thing that I was really proud for my company is when we realized on the 20th of March, and believe it is five years now, or six years this March, when on the 20th of March we decided we're going to start closing offices and hotels. The first thing, and I really tell you this with a lot of pride, the first thing we said when we sat across the room is what are we going to do for our owners to survive? Because when they closed down their hotels, how are they going to survive? And we've done everything possible for the owners to survive. That was one of the proudest moments as far as in my career for my company when our CEO and CFO and the whole board said do anything you can for your owners to survive. I was doing phone calls just to ask our owners how they're doing. How's your family? That is an important element of the relationship. Yes, it is about delivery. It is about technology, loyalty. All of that. Yes, all that great stuff. But again, it's a lot about trust and it's a lot about how the other guy feels on the other side of the table.

Correct. And I guess you see that in your own business as well, right? When an owner calls and says, you know, I want your advice, you're there. You get on a plane the next day and you're there. You know, I personally travel 220 days a year. Could I do less? Of course. My wife would be happier or not if I was spending more time at home, but I need to be where the owners are. I need to be with my team. I need to make sure that my team is fit enough and has the right culture to actually serve those owners and so those owners can provide a great service.

Look, we are one of the big guys. I know that we don't get mentioned that often in the world of the big brands because if you look at family-driven brands like the Marriotts, the Hiltons, people do not know that we've only been around as a public listed company eight years. So we've only been around as a public listed company eight years. Before that we were part of a bigger organization as you know very well called Wyndham Worldwide and before that we were part of the Cendant Corporation which was one of the biggest conglomerates in various parts of industries. We became publicly listed on Wall Street. I think it was June 2018 and since then we have grown to what we are today. We have presence in 100 countries. We are, I think if I'm good with my numbers, we are the second biggest in the world in terms of properties. We've got about 8,800 properties. We're growing in Asia. We're growing in China. You know, how do we compare? We have our own niche. We're the leaders in the economy and midscale space. Our Ramada brand, our La Quinta brand, our Days Inn and Super 8. I mean every 10 minutes you go in the United States, you'll find a Wyndham brand either being a Days Inn or Super 8. That was the backbone of our growth. The future for us is to continue to do what we do but expand in new territories, in new markets. We are now, if you look at EMEA, I'm very proud to say that we're now the number one or number two in the CIS region which has proven extremely successful for us. Georgia, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan. We're growing. We're number one in Turkey with 140 hotels, one of the biggest markets in the world. I think it's fifth or sixth on global arrivals. We're growing in Greece, which is my home country. We've done some great deals in Spain and Portugal. And obviously India. India is a big bet for us. We have 100 hotels already. There are 150 million Indians that are gradually moving into the middle class and the first thing they want to do is travel.

Yes. I mean we launched Echo Hotels and Suites in the US which is one of our fastest growing brands in the extended stay space. We're looking at brand new residences. I always believe that hospitality, more today than ever, is moving into becoming a real estate play rather than just an industry of service. We're becoming a real estate play. So brand new residences in the midscale. We saw a niche in the midscale.

Look, we have Wyndham Residences, Ramada and Wyndham Grand Residences. We've got at least 10 properties in Spain and Portugal in that space. We're growing a lot in the Middle East in the same space because obviously brand new residences in the Middle East is booming. But we saw the opportunity on the midscale, not the upper luxury. We are not competing with the Mandarins or I don't know the Four Seasons. We are in the middle scale because I do believe that the majority of this world lives in that space, that middle class midscale space. Yes, we all have inspirations to go through ultra luxury but if you compare, ultra luxury is kind of like 12%, 15% in the world. You know, how many Ferraris are out there? How many Bentleys are out there? I'm more interested in that midscale and upper upscale space where I believe there is a huge opportunity.

Of course. So they're all in FITUR today. So please come and see us. We have a big stand in FITUR as Wyndham. We're putting more resources on the ground. And look, the interesting thing about what happened after COVID is that you don't need an office anymore, right? The digital nomads, you can... so that actually helped us a lot. We have people in Lisbon supporting Spain. We have people in Spain supporting Portugal. We have people in the UK supporting Spain. We have salespeople on the ground. You need to be on the move. You need to be constantly on the move. You don't want to be docked on a port and never move. You have to be out there in the sea navigating every day. So, we're putting more resources. We're hiring more people in the local markets but at the same time we create a better support mechanism in our key offices around the world to actually support certain markets. My colleague from LATAM, the president of LATAM, Gustavo is here with me today. We're going to be in FITUR today together. Why? Because there's so many synergies as well. That's the other beauty of global brands, the synergies that they bring.

Yes.

That has actually been extended for Europe. We have a strategic alliance with Palladium. We've done a strategic alliance with a company called the Cameron in Latin America. And we are actually looking at synergies that again, that is the important component. 70% of the clients that go to Latin America, they're Americans. With such a great presence of Wyndham in the United States, it's a no-brainer. You know, these are the... it's a natural evolution. These are the synergies that you want to create.

Um, I should have known better. One thing that I hated... I loved my mother, my late mother, but I always hated it when she would tell me 'I told you so.' That's the worst thing to tell anybody. I try not to say this to my kids.

Yes. Yes. Let's not get... Yeah. 'I told you so.' I'm trying not to do that with my kids. But the 'I told you so' is something we need to avoid more and more. But it's not always possible. Things happen, right? Challenges happen, mistakes happen, but you have to learn. Every day is a learning process. And that's the beauty of our business. We learn every day.

We bought a great brand from Melia. It was a great deal for us. We bought it. We expanded it. We have quite a few TRYPs now in China. We have quite a few TRYPs in Latin America. And here in Europe, what we've done, we've actually renovated TRYP or reinvented TRYP. So if you look at the new TRYPs, they're completely different from what they were. And I might be wrong, but I think in a world where people talk about lifestyle, I think TRYP was the first lifestyle brand in Europe and kudos and congratulations to Melia who came up with a lifestyle brand like 15 years ago.

It was an interesting brand and that's why we bought it. Same story like Vienna House. We are reimagining TRYP. If you look at our new TRYPs, they're different, but they stay close to their DNA. And what is the DNA? It's a brand that makes you comfortable. It's part of the city. It's part of the community. Co-working space, open lobbies, very flexible, simple rooms because that's what people want. You know, why would I pay I don't know €600 a night when I'm only there for a couple of hours a day in the room and then I want to be part of the city. Location is key for TRYP. You need to be in the heart of the city. If you look at our latest TRYP in Istanbul, it's right in the heart of the city. One of the most vibrant cities in the world and it's part of the community. That's what TRYP stands for.

In Spain we have a great relationship with the Ideal Group who are real estate developers. So we have Wyndham, Wyndham Grand and Ramada Residences with them. They are more vacation homes. I mean they are two-bedroom, three-bedroom Ramada Residences.

Yes, they're selling them to third parties. Yes. They are selling to third parties. They put it back in the rental pool and some of them they're actually developing themselves. They actually keep it in the pool themselves as they run them as hotels. We really are pushing our Super 8. I don't know if you're aware of the Super 8 brand. We signed a deal to bring 50 Super 8s in Spain and Portugal for the next 10 years.

Look, outside the city because most of them are pre-fabricated. So they build in factories. There are 60 rooms.

No, no, it's a bit actually a notch higher than that. Our Super 8s, we've got about 2,500 Super 8s across the world. Amazing brand, beautiful, easy to manage, appeals to all segments, limited service, you know, driven by technology, delivers what it says on the description. That's what people want. That's what people want. And again, if you go to my Super 8 in the UK, you see from people who are driving and they stay overnight because they want to charge their cars or families that they want to relax before they continue their journeys. So different segments which again is very beautiful.

It's a Portuguese group. And they are going to... they've already identified six sites. And gradually developing it. We've done exactly in Saudi Arabia. We did a deal with a major developer in Saudi Arabia where we're going to build Super 8s outside of major metros. Again with the same concept, pre-fabricated, 60 rooms, ready in 6 months, easy to manage, limited service, just beautiful one-night, two-night stays and repeated guests.

100%, 100%, 100%.

Yeah, we... you know, if you're outside of Jeddah, right, and you have a piece of land, why would you need a complicated structure? You need 60 rooms. You build it in a pre-fabricated factory, you bring it in, six months, it's two floors. Easy reception, a grab and go, sandwiches, breakfast, whatever. You run it based on technology, contactless. And you provide a great service in a great room and place to stay. You know, the great news about our business is technology changes completely the way we do business. Right. Yes. I have huge respect. Huge respect. Sapo, huge respect, beautiful buildings, historical buildings in Madrid, five-star deluxe. But if I'm in the outskirts of Jeddah and I want to stay for a couple of days, thank you very much. You know, I don't need a luxury, I don't know, amazing property with 20 restaurants. I don't need that. And because there are two billion people who are going to travel this year, do you think that they're all sexy and cool and they're all high net worth individuals? No, no, no. People travel for different reasons. As long as you have the brands, the concepts and the product to accommodate that, you capture a big part of that.

As I said, branded residences, extended stay is going to be very popular.

Yes. Yes. We're looking at... No, no, no. It's not official yet because we need to sign our first deal. I'm very excited about Dolce. We bought the Dolce brand about 10 years ago from Mr. Andy Dolce. It's a MICE business, but we are now going to launch an upper upscale Dolce extension of the Dolce brand. It's a brand that has a great name. Dolce... I think there is a saying in Spain... in Italy. Oh yes. Okay. Italy. Sorry to the Italians who are listening. So 'dolce'... that's my concept. It was interesting how you come up with a brand. I heard that expression. I said oh interesting what does it mean? Because I did Latin at school but I want to forget that time. It was tough. So he says oh 'dolce' and your worries go away and I'm like wow we have a Dolce brand what about if we build an extension that creates that concept that 'dolce fare niente' and that is what we're doing. So we're still keeping the DNA of the brand, we still have the Dolce MICE, but our next step is to create an upper upscale Dolce that sits in the beautiful cities, it's a conversion brand and it creates that 'dolce fare niente' experience.

The best job in the world? It's difficult. So I'll tell you, the guy who sells ice cream.

Everybody loves the guy who sells ice cream. That's our social media campaign. Dolce ice cream. Sweet. That's where we want Dolce to be for the younger generation and for the consumers out there. So Dolce is a great brand, is a brand that I really love. Not that I don't love... it's like you don't love your other children, but I believe that it will have a great future when we launch the new extension of the brand which is going in the upper upscale space.

No, no, I... look, the most important thing is to be able to take risks and not to worry about what other people say. One thing about what I love about living in London is you walk in the subway and it doesn't matter if you're dressed like a parrot or like a penguin. Nobody cares. Nobody cares. In Greece, in two seconds, everybody's going to be like... in Italy, everyone is paying. So, why does that translate into business? You need to take risks and you don't care if people say oh, you know, American companies would never do that or whatever. It is very important to be brave and do things that... and yes if you do mistakes you do mistakes or if you make mistakes you make mistakes but the next time you won't. The real estate, as I said earlier, real estate is going to change the way we look at hospitality. I strongly believe that it is now revenue per available square meter. Not about RevPAR anymore. Every square meter, unless, and I said it yesterday at my panel, unless you have an Indian wedding every week, why would you need 2,000 square meters of a ballroom or a huge restaurant that does 10 covers a day? Every single square meter in your property needs to make money. That's it. That's clear. That's where we're going. That's why you see co-living, extended stay, branded residences, hotels, mixed use. That's why the real estate world now is blurring into hospitality because you need to make money out of every single square meter or square feet you've got in your property. That's it. And you have to have people who understand that. Your general manager needs to make sure that every little square meter in that property actually makes money. That's where the future lies. It's a retail business at the end. Absolutely. Absolutely. And the more offices become hotels, the more it becomes evident. It's clear, right? That's where I think we should be looking at the future. That's why real estate players are looking at the asset class of hospitality and say, I want to be there because offices don't make sense anymore. You know, retail, how many Zaras can you have in one high street? Right. That's the world we live in. It's exciting times.

23 years. My god. My god. And so on. But I think we are both of us in perfect shape and we look great. So I'm happy to see you.

I first of all, I'm not a doctor or a lawyer to give people advice. Look, control the controllables to start with. And I say this to my team every day, worry about the things that you can control and stop worrying about the things that you cannot control. The second thing again that I talk to my team all the time, take care of yourselves, take care of the people who matter the most and the business will look after itself because people are more important today in our business than ever before. And yeah, the world is an oyster. It's not about Spanish and Portuguese or Greeks or Italians or Turks anymore. We're a global village. We need to be open. We need to be humble and sincere. And the more technology brings us together, the more isolated we become. I have two kids, 28 and 26, and they talk to me on WhatsApp. And it's a new world. They order four deliveries a day at home because they don't have time or they think they don't have time to make a coffee. That is the world that is changing. That's the world that we are going to live in. And the moment we realize that and all of us out there, owners, developers, guests, the better it is because it's not the same world as three years ago or four years ago or five years ago. So have your eyes open. Be receptive to change although change sucks. And remember 'dolce far niente'.

Thank you. Thank you. Really enjoy that.

Right. Exactly. Yes. But it's lovely to see you every year. Every year we meet at least once and that's important. That's important.

Thank you. Thank you.