You were a child star. How did that interfere with your education?
It's a Chardonnay though.
A cruel internet take is reheated Sabrina and you're like, I am older and I was here first.
So who is giving head in the dive bar to Hillary? Shepherd's Bush Empire tickets were going for over a grand outside last night.
See that makes me upset. Can I tell you guys a confession? Yeah, I make sourdough.
So do I. My starter is on the counter.
You really keep that lid on tight.
I mean, so there's nothing really you would have changed?
Oh gosh, there's so much I would change.
Hello and welcome to Table Manners. I'm Jesse and I'm here in my house with my mom looking pretty in pink. Thank you very much.
Very nice. It's almost a Percy pig, isn't it? With the light. It is a little bit though, isn't it?
I thought it was more Disney princess. We are very excited to have this guest. She has just played her first show in 20 years last night at Shepherd's Bush Empire. Hilary Duff is coming on now. Hilary Duff is Younger. She's in the Netflix show called Younger. She was Lizzie McGuire. She has a few followers on Instagram.
Yeah. 26 million and 86,000 more than me. Anyway, she's incredibly successful and she is back with a really brilliant new album. I loved it. It's quite naughty.
It's quite explicit, shall we say?
Oh, yeah. There's no innuendo. It's right out there.
Well, what's Roommates about?
Touching yourself at the front door.
Well, you listen to the album, honey. I think it's very relatable.
Do you not that I'm touching myself at the front door?
When you hear that bell go, you must get really excited.
Forget this. I promise you'll be professional in a minute. Hilary Duff is coming on to talk about the record. She just played a sold-out show at Shepherd's Bush Empire last night. It sold out in like seconds. Tickets were going for over a grand to get in last night. She looked gorgeous.
She did. She had loads of costume changes.
She's pretty. She seems like a gorgeous girl.
Oh, you could be my friend.
Yeah. And she's so sweet and lovely and benefiting from her relationship with an older woman that she doesn't know is older. I'm very excited to have Hilary Duff on.
Yeah. I'm cooking. With help from my darling Rosie. It's a sticky miso salmon bowl and it's by Andy Baragani and I've done his recipes before I think and he's really good. It's basically a marinade of miso, honey, tiny bit of oil, grapefruit zest and grapefruit juice.
I hope so. Yes. Rosie's also brought her rice cooker, which I'm just going to get a rice cooker.
Yeah, I've got a rice cooker to make Persian Iranian. Making sushi rice in there. So, it's going to be sushi rice, sticky miso, salmon that's grilled, and then I got really beautiful watermelon radishes, you know, the ones that look like that. And then we're going to have some kimchi. I know you don't like it, but it's good for your gut. And I've got some chili crisp. So, it's a bit of everything. Hopefully, very easy to eat and will keep her, you know, focused with the omega-3s. And then for P, you text me last night saying, 'I'm really worried about my dessert.' I've done lemon creme brulee.
But you said these could be the sugar creme brulee. I think I slightly overcooked them, but they look all right. And I think when you grill them that it will melt down anyway. Have you got a blowtorch about your person?
I think after we did it with Haley Squires, I think we decided that was the last time we did creme brulee. It's very brave to... I think maybe we should just use the grill today. Lenny, will you be able to use the grill?
Do you know how it's going to taste? Have you ever used the grill?
What are you talking about?
No. Here. Do you use that grill? Do you grill stuff?
Okay, good. Because you said that the creme brulee wasn't very good.
It was between you and I. If that comment was between you and I, I'm not sure about my creme brulee.
Wasn't for public consumption. I'm sure it's going to be great though. And the arc here is going to be that everyone says your creme brulee is amazing.
Okay. Well, I made an emergency cookie in case Lungi is always baking. The cookie is a toasted jam. So, it's toast, sourdough toast and jam that you then whiz up to make breadcrumbs and then you put with miso and cookie dough and then you also put white chocolate in. So, it's like, do you know how people come up with toast and jam and then you whiz it up?
I know. It's weird, isn't it?
But it works. Hilary Duff coming up on Table Manners.
Hilary Duff as I live and breathe. You look fantastic.
Are you slightly tired? Because after a sold-out fabulous return to the stage last night.
Did you get any sleep last night?
Was the adrenaline just going?
My body was like, 'Oh my god.' But no, I got four hours of sleep. So yeah, very open the dark.
I know. And we call it dirty dirty diet cokes. I try not to drink them too often.
Oh, shut up, Jesse. It's fine. Why is that?
Okay, let's enjoy it, shall we? Jesus. Is this one mine? And then, you know, I did get some orange wine because you do sing about it on the record. So, you're going to have to educate us on orange wine because I can't stand it.
I'm going to be selfless.
This isn't wine or wine, baby. Like, let's get our buzz on. I feel like it's a little... I can't do too... no farmard. I was going to say...
Yeah. Do you know what I mean? But it's a little funky earthy.
Do you like a natty wine?
To be honest with you, I prefer like a Sauvignon Blanc.
Oh, probably got something like that, too. Babes, what would you... So, my... I love that you listened and you... By the way, I didn't just listen. I studied and I respect and love the record. I think it's fantastic. I think you're going to have a fabulous time because honestly Hilary, like, it's really great and I have to say I think we're of a... Are you going to turn 40 soon?
I am 38. I'll be 39 in September.
So I'm a couple of years older than you. Maybe three or four years, whatever. But I kind of missed you the first time round and I knew so yesterday and you were played on the radio, but I really feel like I've listened to all the records and I feel like this makes so much sense that you've made this record and it's a kind of continuation. I don't feel like you've gone like this to any of your fans who I know you adore. It's kind of like they've grown up with you.
Yeah. And as a mother of three and a working mom and a singer and doing all these different bits and bobs, I really related to a lot of the content.
Content. Thanks. And you know, I'm not necessarily giving head in the dive bar yet.
Me, you can't say that in front of Lenny.
Oh, we've been talking about what she's doing with your roommate at the front door.
Oh, no. I love that you say you can't talk about with Lenny. It's a single, babes. No, I know. I know.
So, so who is giving head in the dive bar to Hillary?
I was just talking about this on the radio and I was like I feel you know what raunchy is like a big word that you guys use in England. Like that's not used in the States. Like it feels like very... it feels naughty. Like raunchy is like naughty.
Elevated naughty, we'll take it. Yeah. I think if you listen to the song as a whole, you realize that the theme is actually like a desperate plea to get back to a place with someone that is lost.
And so like back at the dive bar giving you head is like reminiscing on a wilder freer time. I've never actually given head in the back of a dive bar. I don't want to make anybody sad, but actually never have.
Still time. It's a dive bar.
Oh, a dive bar is like a dirty, grungy little... what? You'll have like a pickle back with you. You'll have a chaser.
You guys don't have dive bars here.
It's like not a fancy spot. It's just like a neighborhood.
So you walk... I can imagine where it is in New York. You walk down the steps and it's like there's like no windows.
Football's playing or they've got like good... What kind of music would be in a dive bar? Rock.
They don't. Do they have music in a dive bar?
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Okay. I guess it just depends on what kind of bar. Like if it's a sports bar, they're probably like playing rock, right?
Where do you imagine yourself giving head? Which kind of dive bar?
No, I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm joking. I hope they're like spinning a record like vinyl. Like that seems a little cooler.
Let's elevate this. Okay.
I love this. Lenny, what about you? What would they be playing in the dark?
Oh god. Probably Tamla Motown.
Oh, okay. What's that? Tell us about your first...
Motown. You know what? Motown.
Oh, Motown. Motown. Tamla.
That's what it was always called. Tamla Motown.
Tamla. I don't know. Adam will tell me why it was called Tamla Motown. That was the label.
Yeah. Label people in the back. Well, okay. Thank you. Thank you. But I think that like you know talking about drinking wine, reminiscing, all these things that I mean I guess when you've got three four kids and what I find interesting is that you made this record with your husband.
Who you've made music with before?
Yeah. But was this kind of... I want to know was the conversations about these songs did they happen before making or did the deep conversation have to happen after you came out with some of these lines? Like I feel like was it very therapeutic? Was it confronting?
Yeah, I think it was a combination of both, but I knew I only wanted to work with him on the record, right? I had never made a record like that before where I got to really... I don't want to say I don't control the narrative because like I'm so involved in all the records that I've made, but I've never like... I've never really like put the gates up and just been like very like singular about it, I guess, or insular about it. Is that the better word? Like it's always been like oh like you should be working with this person because they have this song and this song and like and you should fly to Sweden because all the pop stuff's coming out of Sweden and you should like a lot of like input input input and not that it was bad it totally like got me on my way like it was my journey and my path and it took but it took me getting to this age to be like how do I want to do this.
And have your own autonomy. Yeah. And be true to yourself.
And be true to myself and make something that was just like really really... I mean I took 10 years off and I did a whole bunch of life in during that 10 years as a human being would but Matt has had a front row seat to that whole time frame you know so it just seemed like the themes that would come that are like heavily threaded through the record are very just like me and things that I've gone through and it didn't make sense to like bring anybody else into that.
I guess that's what I think is so telling about the lyrics because they are incredibly open. You know, something like The Optimist, it's like, you know, it's heartbreaking and and you know, I guess you felt safe enough with your partner to be able to put that into music. It wasn't like working with strangers and being like, how do I explain this part of my life? And I found that really engaging and interesting and also, you know, we were talking about this before, we're going to get on to, you know, your start and all of that, but you were kind of the first Disney star to go and do all the rest like the pop, the breakout, you know, the Mileys, the Demis and Selenas came after you.
And you know, I heard lots of these references on the record. Maybe I'm wrong, but like I could hear a bit of Taylor Swift in there or like a bit of Sabrina and we thought about this and we were like, well, they were probably all listening to you when they were little.
And they grew up on you, so it's kind of gone full circle.
Well, yeah. But I don't... I have a really hard time talking about other female artists and like trying to compare or like find, you know, the internet is so fast to hear something one time and then be like, 'Oh, reheated Sabrina.' And you're like, first of all, by the way, I'm not saying it's reheated enough by saying a cruel internet take is like wild and you're like, well, I am older and I was here first and there's like plenty of space obviously for everyone, but every music is just it's very hard to be completely original anymore. You just have to go in the studio and make what you think is cool and make what you know feels what you want to blast in the car. Excuse my French. And be, you know, alone with your windows down driving. Like that's the record that I wanted to make. And it's pop. So pop is pop. And a lot of that takes like cues from other songs or sounds. And if anything it's a compliment because like these women are out there and feels like they've put a lot more time in than me. I stepped away to have a family, you know.
I don't know. But you were working at a very young age by that was like your sabbatical that you were having. You were well deserving but it's quite guttural some of the lyrics like Alanis Morissette for example. I mean she was very guttural you know in her openness and raw feelings.
How old your oldest child?
Will he be listening to it?
Oh, yeah. He's listened to the record.
And have you had to explain anything to him?
Well, he hasn't asked about if you're like talking about some of the roommate lyrics or something. He doesn't bring it up, but we've already had the talk about everything and I've explained everything to him.
So, you don't have to shield him from it?
No. At 13, what am I going to...
No, no, no, you won't shield him. I wondered if... if he was like embarrassed or something by it or his friends might tease him about it.
Oh god, make her feel guilt. Well, I've already thought about it.
I just wondered whether she... of course you've thought about it.
I mean, I really desperately love to embarrass him. I feel like it's my right as a parent.
But his friends think I'm cool for the time being. And sometimes I ask if it's embarrassing to him. He's the kindest, sweetest angel baby of all time. Like he's just all good inside. And so it's like he's just like, 'I'm really proud of you, Mom. I'm really proud of you.' I know. It makes me want to cry. He's really proud.
Yeah. But when he does if he does ask something, I'm going to be like, 'Hey, guess what? Like outside of being your mom, I'm a human.'
By the way, you don't look like a mom of four.
She looked honestly so young. How old were you when you...
Yeah. Wow. That is quite young.
Probably isn't quite young for the old days, but it is quite young these days.
So, I'm sure you kind of... I don't know like you probably felt more grown up than the usual 24 year old because you'd had a working job from the age of nine.
Yes. And I was so ready to like have something that belonged to just me, you know? Like so I was ready like he was planned and but it was really a wild choice when I look back as a 38-year-old now I'm like who was that pregnant even though I employed people and like made millions of dollars and like traveled around the world like with a major major job that was definitely the biggest like grownup responsibility.
As somebody who does music and I have three kids and I have a slight envy of you that you were able to take this time out. And I'm not saying you weren't doing anything in the time when you weren't, you know, your last record was 10 years ago.
But I do there's something really beautiful that you really talk about this a lot and but like celebrating that time with your children and I feel like my career is happening at the same time, you know what I mean? And so you like don't get the time with them that you want. I mean, I get as much time as possible and I try and like, you know, I try and I'm going to do the school pickup and I, you know, I do all the things. I'll make sure I'll be putting them to bed, but there's time when I'm not going to be here and so, but also think, you know, things take you away and I think it was harder at the beginning. I think it definitely was harder at the beginning and I think we found our feet and I have an amazing support network and I've been able to like work it out better. But I do think it's kind of wonderful that you were able to and I'm not saying that didn't come without its struggles by the way, but to be able to focus in and I'm interested and I don't want to sound like that kind of textbook. Well, how are you going to manage your job because you're a woman? It's not that at all. But like touring is going to be different for you this time around. Huh?
Do you plan to like bring the kids with because I know is your husband here at the moment? He's such an angel that he flew in, did the show with me, flew out this morning.
I know. He's going to go back, have like two days with our kids so they don't not have one of us there. And then meet me in Toronto, do the same. And then we'll go to New York and then our nanny's flying with our baby because I can't go 10 days without... she's 21 months.
I know. I know. And she's so cute, you guys. She's obsessed with seaweed right now. And so she's learned how to say it and she's like...
Fued. Fued. And we're like I just want to like watch the video on repeat over and over again. But I got divorced from my son's dad and I was filming Younger at the time. So, I spent a ton of time away and it was really hard because I was like on the East Coast and I didn't want to like disrupt his life and so he was like in kindergarten already and the school is very like you know the kids can't miss and it's not like you know it's...
Yeah. But I did exactly the same like I just had to find the support system and you know the people around that have like basically become our family that can help know that every single one of our days looks different like it's not... it's not and they can just like adapt and know what's needed and like jump in and be like so helpful and be my brain for me when I can't be the one to like you know orchestrate the ship. But I think they'll come on tour. And the other thing that happened to me a couple of weeks ago was I was in rehearsal and surprises really I'm not good with surprises because I like to process and like wrap my head...
Hillary, I don't think I'm a control freak.
You can actually ask my whole team this year. I barely ask any questions. I just show up and I'm like, 'Okay, someone's figured it out for me.' But you don't like surprises. I don't love surprises because I get nervous that like my reaction wasn't as what people wanted it to be and I just need to like get my head around it and then I'm happy usually.
They brought my tour bus out and they like pulled me out of rehearsal and they were like they were so excited to be like this gorgeous bus and it was absolutely gorgeous and so nice. But I was like how am I going to live on this with my four kids?
Like little slots for beds and like I just star at the back. Also, by the way, kids have to poop all the time. There's no poop in front of us.
I'm very worried. Where are we stopping? What are we doing?
You can do the cling film trick.
What? Like, put every single time. How often do you like... I have to like... You're like...
Have they not... Excuse me. Have they not elevated tour buses so you can have a poo?
I don't think so. It's mad. I know. I mean, maybe we should go into sorting out being allowed to poo on a bus. Don't you just feel like a good table conversation always sometimes ends talking about poop? Like it just has to. It's just the thing.
It's not. We're just like, 'No, no, we love... I mean I'm kind of obsessed with... I think from having children, Jesse, it's that like it becomes a very comfortable topic.'
Yes. I love it. Okay. We're going to start talking about some food and we are going to feed you as well. But I need to know where you were born and brought up where...
Because you were a child star. So, did your whole family move with you?
Oh, wow. So, where did you live?
So, my mom started bringing us out to LA for like a few months at a time for like the seasons. We're there for like a few months and we go back to Texas and we come back and go back and forth.
You haven't got much of a Texan accent.
Yeah. When we got out to LA, we got teased enough that you just drop it.
I know. People thought we had like just dirt roads and like LA kids are not like... they're like that we like ride to school on horses and stuff.
Yeah, I thought you would love a steak.
So, what's a memorable meal from your childhood and who was eating around the dinner table?
Okay. So, my dad used to cook a lot of steaks.
And he also used to go deer hunting, so we eat like...
Bambi. Oh my god. I know. I know. I mean, I didn't know any better.
No, I'm sure. I used to remember that they would also like go quail hunting. Have you ever eaten quail?
Yeah, I've had quail once or twice.
Okay. So, when they shoot... Why am I talking about this? This is so random.
Because we're on a food podcast.
Okay. So, when they shoot quail, it like sprays and so the bullet like sprays. So, when you like eat it, you get shrapnel. Yes. And they used to call it shot and they'd be like careful don't get shot in your teeth or something and you don't want to like bite down too hard tooth.
So we ate some pretty crazy things though. Quail.
Yeah. They're really small.
I think they had to get them down somehow.
Yeah, they do. A memorable dish is really like what your dad would bring in.
Okay. But my mom also cooked too. And so like casserole. Yeah, she's a pretty good cook. Casseroles and stuff.
And it was you and your sister around the dinner table. And then we always had like a salad.
What time did you eat dinner?
Yeah, that would you would be... I love my favorite baby. I'm back. I'm back. I want the early reservation. I want to be the first one walking in the restaurant. I want to be in bed by 9:00. 9:30.
You make reservations for 5:30. Oh yeah. Oh my god. I'm like outside the door. It feels so good. Oh, I love get a glass of wine in.
Oh, I did and I was devastated. I was... I've never been like I don't even mean hung over by like alcohol. Just tired hung over. I was just like rocked.
We don't eat till 10 in groups.
I'm not hungry at that point. I've gone like what?
It depends how your day has gone really. And you've had a little feed.
Well, when you have young children that are waking up at the crack of dawn.
Yeah. I don't know about that like luxurious lifestyle. You show me the ways. Okay. So, I'm going to put the salmon on.
Yeah. I'm going to carry on chatting.
And you're going to carry on chatting, but I'm going to assemble. We're going to have a sticky miso salmon bowl with like sushi rice, some radish. It's going to be... I felt like this is what you needed after your big night last night.
Yeah. I just want to let you know I did not eat yesterday.
Well, going you were nervous. So, she's starving. That's the key. Get on it, Jesse.
Jesse. Jesse. Did you notice that Hilary said she likes serving you or a son?
Yes, we're ready for what I got. Okay. Yeah, we could have a little... make sure that you're... Yeah. Okay. Hold on.
Oh, that looks a bit of you, babe. But maybe not. Hold on.
Okay. It's a Chardonnay, though.
No. Me, too. Completely with you.
Wait, is it French Chardonnay? Because I think that's different. Never mind.
No, darling. It's... They're too creamy. And...
I agree. Well, you liked the look of it though, didn't you?
No, Jesse. It'll be all creamy.
I don't know what that is. Because I can't read Italian.
God, you... Let me see, darling. Because I can read.
I don't know. It's... Oh, you okay?
It's... And I've got a fizzy orange, which is maybe what...
Sanjamino. It probably is quite nice. Better than Chardonnay.
You're like an old man. Only old men drink Chardonnay.
They do. They love Chardonnay.
I do, actually. And duh. It's actually very chic to like it now.
No, it isn't. No, it's not. Wine connoisseurs do not drink.
No, we're born again Pinot Noir drinkers now which we never... we always used to be very...
Opinion on that too. A Pinot Noir. Oh my god. Tell us what you think about Pinot Noir.
Pinot Noir gives me a headache.
You were drinking... relatable. About 20...
Yeah, see, I... the way I also know nothing about wine. I really don't. I just can taste it and say I like it or I don't.
Let me see what this is. Is it okay?
Cuz I have got... Yeah, it's nice. Fresh.
It's fresh. I don't meet a lot of wines I don't like, to be honest.
Me neither. Yeah, except for Chardonnay.
To be perfectly honest, I can drink anything. Do you like a chilled red? Anybody like a chilled red?
Me, too. I love an amber.
I love... We're back in. We're fine. We can be friends again.
Yes. Is Lambrusco now a thing?
Oh, it's cool again. Oh my god, that fizzy wine.
Fizzy red that kids take to pop festivals. Pretend it's quite chic.
I'm going to ask you first of all, do you cook?
I'm just kind of a basic cook, but I love to make a steak. Um, I love to roast veggies. We roast a lot of like broccolini. I make this good cauliflower with like vinegar and raisins and like parsley and capers.
Kind of nut, like if you want like a pecan or something in there, and then a bunch of parsley and you chop it all up and you can puree, you can what's it called? Pulse it in the food processor.
And then you put it on the roasted broccoli and it's so good.
And they'll eat broccoli that way.
My kids will eat... sorry, I put that on cauliflower. I roast the cauliflower, but honestly it would be good on broccoli too. I've just never thought to do it.
It would be good on broccoli.
Yeah. And then, you know, they're kids, so... have chips. Mac and cheese.
Yeah. Noodles. Rice. I make a lot of rice. I'm from Texas, so we eat more rice than noodles there.
