Cofounder, Meta
Jumio Panel Discussion feat. Facebook Co-Founder at Money2020
Multi-camera live-stream by Aardvark Video & Media Productions at the Aria hotel in Las Vegas. Featuring Facebook co-founder Eduardo Saverin. https://aardvarkvideolasvegas.com
About Eduardo Saverin
Eduardo Saverin, co-founder of Meta Platforms and co-CEO of B Capital, has spoken about the impact of artificial intelligence on business and society. In a May 2025 interview with AIBRASIL, Saverin described AI as a "key paradigm shifting technology" and said that the most important application of AI is not in creating fundamental large language models but in integrating AI into workflows so that users do not have to take an extra step to use it. He stated that the majority of productivity gains in businesses could be achieved with a proper application layer and workflow integration, rather than requiring significantly more advanced models. Saverin also discussed the societal challenges of AI, including job displacement, and said that entrepreneurs and companies should balance profit optimization with societal benefits. In a March 2025 appearance at the Web Summit in Qatar, Saverin commented on the advancement of DeepSeek, stating that "innovation can and should come from anywhere" and that such developments are "very positive for the industry" because they make core models more accessible from a pricing standpoint. He said that DeepSeek is good for certain types of functions while other models are better for others, and that choice in foundational models will drive more access to AI. Saverin also noted that the news of DeepSeek's capabilities should not cause companies to decelerate spending on AI infrastructure, but rather accelerate it because the return on investment per dollar is higher.
Transcript (43 segments)
M
Mark Barish0:13
My name is Mark Barish, I'm CMO at Jumio. On behalf of all of my colleagues in the room here today, we're all wearing these really nifty green pocket squares. If you guys could stand up and say hello, thank you. Thank you very much. And our colleagues not present today, we welcome you to this special lunch presentation.
Today we're going to be talking a little bit about some of the challenges that mobile wallets have faced, some things that are familiar to you and some things that are not. And then we're going to present to you a preview of what Jumio is going to be launching that we believe will help move the ball forward in a new and exciting way.
We're joined today by three very distinguished tech entrepreneurs who will be joining us in a panel very shortly. Eduardo Saverin is Facebook co-founder and currently serves as a Jumio director on our board of directors. After founding Facebook almost 10 years ago, he's been involved investing in a number of high-tech companies and playing active roles on those boards.
Daniel Mattes is Jumio founder and CEO. Prior to Jumio, he founded a company called Jajah, which is a voice over IP company that he sold to Telefonica in 2009. And then he founded Jumio in 2010.
Mike Orlando is Chief Sales Officer at Jumio. Prior to joining Jumio about a year ago, he was Senior Vice President at CyberSource, where he played a key role in driving the two billion dollar acquisition of CyberSource by Visa. And with that, I'm going to ask our distinguished panelists to come on in and please join me in a warm welcome.
So Eduardo, I'm going to start with you. Facebook is almost 10 years old. 10 years ago you co-founded the company, and today about 15 percent of humanity, 15 percent of planet Earth uses Facebook. How does that feel? And are you surprised by the success and ubiquity that you and your colleagues achieved?
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Eduardo Saverin2:23
I'm absolutely surprised. My 21-year-old self back in college would never have imagined that, especially this company, would have had this type of wide reach. Because when we started the product, we actually just developed it for ourselves. We were college students at the time, and we just wanted to make our experience better. We wanted to create a system where we could find other students to create study guides, to network for internships and jobs. It was just something for our own selves.
And it happened to be that through time it expanded so that across all geographies, all languages, all religions, cultural differences, everyone is using this. And no way would we have imagined that that would take place and happen. And it's frankly very, very humbling. But beyond just the usage across the world, it's the real impact that it has on people. It really has in some ways democratized voice. It's no longer about a top-down few people can speak to the world. Now one random individual can put an idea to everyone out there. It also democratized innovation. It really used itself as a springboard for other companies to acquire users quickly, to innovate quickly as well. And there's a lot of things that happen, but would I imagine this? Never, not even close.
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Mark Barish3:55
So I've been involved in a number of startups and I know there's inevitable ups and downs. Can you think back on some of those ups and down stories back in the early days?
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Eduardo Saverin4:06
Absolutely. A startup is all-encompassing in life in every way. It's a really sort of a deep relationship, 24/7. And you certainly have ups and downs with the people you work with, with the consumers that use your product, with pretty much everything. And just as an example, with the product side of things, with Facebook, one of the most interesting product evolutions in the site and up and down was when they launched the News Feed. Initially the home page was a static page that just had links to different sections of the website, via your messages or pokes that you receive. We then launched the News Feed and about 10 percent of the user base at that time actually revolted actively. I think actually some individuals were in front of the office with signs. And it's about 10 percent of the user base, which is incredible. And the interesting thing is that the reason the protest was so successful was because of the News Feed itself. And this is an example of clearly an up and down. And that's what happens all the time, is you're always innovating, you're making mistakes all the time because that's part of product innovation, it's part of learning your consumers as well.
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Mark Barish5:30
Well, fail fast is the mantra, of course. I specialize in the first half of that statement. So Daniel, you founded Jajah some years ago. When I think about Jajah as a voice over IP company, and Jumio involved in authentication of people and transactions, other than the fact that both are five letters and start with the letter J, what's the common thread?
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Daniel Mattes5:56
Well, if you think about it, voice over IP is first of all a digital good, and it's easily tradable. And second, internet telephony is a commodity. Everybody needs telephony, so it's potentially really attractive for especially credit card fraud. So what these criminal organizations would do, they would for instance take a stack of 10,000 stolen credit cards, create 10,000 Skype accounts, upload 100 each, and sell the login data to these accounts for like 10 bucks in cash somewhere in Afghanistan. And we were having a hard time fighting this fraud, especially with all our voice over IP providers. We were serving like Yahoo Messenger, etc. And we eventually got it under control with a chargeback ratio of like 0.2 percent. But the downside was we had to pay a high price for it, because the more secure you make it for the merchant, and the more security layers you add on top, like verification phone calls, behavioral analysis, you name it, the more users you lose.
And I always like this example because in the offline world, the credit card payment, let's say if you take like Starbucks for instance, if you go to the Starbucks coffee place and you buy a cappuccino, you just swipe your card, you don't even have to sign, you get your coffee. That's a frictionless, seamless, great way of paying. If you would apply what we did or what the online merchants these days are doing in the offline world, you would go to Starbucks and say, 'Can I have a piece of coffee?' You'll say, 'Wait a second, anybody's filling that form? What was your zip code again? And let's do a verification phone call.' You would not sell a single cup of coffee. And with this problem in mind, I was looking for solutions how to make also online purchases as secure, easy, and fast as paying at the Starbucks for instance in the offline world. And that was basically the starting point for getting this company off the ground in 2010.
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Mark Barish8:05
So the notion is that thinking about fraud and how it impacts consumer efficiency and processes has to be front and center in transactional companies' minds, like all of you sitting out there, not an afterthought. That seems to be a central, essential idea of yours. Eduardo, as a Jumio board member and an active board member at other companies, would you be able to tell us a little bit about your investment thesis? How do you think about these things? What attracted you to Jumio two years ago?
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Eduardo Saverin8:36
Absolutely. So I'm looking really for companies that have a real impact on the world. And it happens to be that, as we were talking before with Facebook, we built a product for ourselves at the time, but it was for a very human need. We like to connect with others. We don't like to be isolated in a room. If I was inside a cave all day and I never saw anyone, I wouldn't be a happy person. It happens to be also that I don't like making everything that I eat for myself, everything that I use for myself. We like to transact with others. We had bartering earlier in human history to now transacting. So that's a very important necessity in our lives, definitely for me.
And what Jumio really is doing, and one of the reasons that I believe in you guys and I believe that this is a truly important innovation for all of us, for humanity, is that the same way Facebook developed the first at large scale real-name face network in the world, we have only information so deep. We have a lot, but we only have information so deep as to social interaction, as to what you're interested in, as to what you watch. But while that can be a very long list, when you're actually transacting real money, you need a lot more. So in the same way that the social graph and the real-name identity was very innovative and changing for the tech world with Facebook, Jumio was doing that for the web in terms of transactions and the transactional economy. The internet started anonymous with Tim Berners-Lee 25 plus years ago. I definitely was too young to really use it at that time. And there was always an anonymous place. And now it's from anonymous to identified. We all know who we are when we use the web. And it's also from passive to active. And part of being active is transacting. So you need Jumio. You need to be able to push forward the transaction economy on the web, period, on different devices, with authentication, of course, confidence that people are real, of course.
M
Mark Barish10:56
Yeah, that's a very important point. Fraud is measured in the billions in every country that has an internet-using population. And we're all concerned about fraud. There's so many financial services institutions here today. Daniel, can you comment a little bit about how you think about combating fraud and how to create the right trade-offs with consumers so that we don't scare them away?
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Daniel Mattes11:24
So I think two things are really important. First of all, we need to ensure that the enrollment process into these networks is very seamless and very easy for the user. And at the other hand, it's also very, very secure, because the network that we are building is only as good as the credentials on file. So I give you an example. In the online world and also the mobile world, one of the hottest trends these days is collaborative consumption. You share your flats, you share your bicycle, you share your car. It actually started off even with eBay, it's almost some sort of thing, right, where I buy and sell something. And it became more and more important. There were many cases where these collaborative consumption marketplaces have been abused. And they figured out, 'Wait a second, we're gonna make this a more secure and more safe place for our participants.' And if you look at what like an Airbnb is doing, or Twitter recently launched, and all other examples, they're all putting quite an effort into proving that if I'm making a transaction with you, that you know it's me and I know it's you, and it's a safe place. That's the key.
M
Mark Barish12:36
And as we think about mobile wallets, I think it's fair to say that the adoption of mobile wallets to date is perhaps under expectation and they've encountered a lot of impediments. If I could throw this to the panel as a whole, what do you think the issues are that have stymied the growth of mobile wallets?
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Mike Orlando12:55
I think generally, if you think about consumers, they haven't really figured out that they need one yet. And even for those who are players in the wallet space who have kind of both sides of the equation figured out, you know, they're the consumers and the merchants, look at the card schemes that have both, right, that could attract them, they still haven't been able to get the consumers to say, 'Yep, I really need it.' And why? Because for most people, their credit card works, right? Their other ways of identifying themselves kind of work. It's cumbersome. And until someone kind of makes a system, an infrastructure play in which we can all easily participate, that's really going to hold it back. Because today, most of the wallets are for the most part closed-looped as well, so very limited utility when I have one.
M
Mark Barish13:41
Well, they certainly, when we talk about mobile wallets, the nomenclature suggests that it's a wallet, but in fact it's usually a payment app for the most part. And as we all think about the wallets that we're holding in our pockets or purses today, they do a whole lot more than payments. So perhaps it's that narrowness of the functionality that's holding people back. Are there any other things that you guys want to add on there?
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Eduardo Saverin14:04
Yeah, meaning, and clearly with something like a wallet, a consumer is going to be very careful to who they give their financial information to, their identity information, and they want to make sure that the utility is there to do so. And what happens today is all these different wallets, and a lot of cases websites and different apps that don't even call themselves wallets, are wallets. They are not providing the true value proposition to the end user. They're all segmented. If you sign up for one wallet, doesn't mean you can transact everywhere. As an example, if I am in a travel website and I sign up for that profile, can I use that sign up information and that payment information somewhere else? And me as a user, I don't remember my passwords, I probably reuse it all the time, which is unsafe by itself. I want it all to be sort of interconnected, right? If I pick up my phone and I make a phone call and I have an AT&T phone, I want to be able to reach someone in T-Mobile as well. It's the power's in the network. And one of the things with wallets right now is they're all segmented. And it goes to the same argument with a phone. Would you have one right now if you could only call people on your network? No. And while I think part of the reason is users don't see the extent of the value proposition yet, but I think Daniel and the Jumio team will be part of the ecosystem showing that in the long term by helping others do that.
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Mark Barish15:40
Well, there certainly have been some successes. Starbucks has one where even though it's usable only at the Starbucks locations, it has achieved a fair amount of adoption by consumers and it's a nice, slick process. So I think that is a good sign that there is a real desire on consumers' parts to move to the next level. But we haven't really gotten there yet. That seems to be a big issue. And security, as you point out, is at the heart of things.
D
Daniel Mattes16:05
So I think basically to your point, most of the successful wallet examples are basically driven by the merchants. And you brought up the Starbucks example for instance. That's a single-purpose wallet driven by Starbucks. It's not Starbucks utilizing five different wallets and all plugging them in, because in reality to reach a significant chunk of users who really have these wallets also installed and are willing to have another account, etc., is a hurdle. And I believe that wallets in the future need to be driven by the merchants rather than by some other providers. We get to this in a second.
M
Mark Barish16:46
Well, very good. We could go on like this for an hour, but we don't have that much time. So at this point I would like to turn it over to Daniel who has a presentation to show you where we are going in order to solve some of the issues that we addressed here today.
D
Daniel Mattes17:07
So we are in the midst of a digital evolution. Everything is becoming digital. Think about books for example. Today we are reading books electronically from ebook readers and devices such as from Amazon, iBooks, etc. Think about movies. Movies today are being watched digitally, streamed to my television mostly, even on demand. Now think about wallets. Wait a second. The answer to wallets is not so easy. We see successful examples in a digital world with books, with movies, with all other different kind of things, but wallets yet have not transformed really into the digital world. So what we have today, and we just discussed it before, is basically what I call the so-called application or app-based wallets. And they have a lot of limitations. I need yet another account. I don't actually personally really believe I would need another account. It's complicated, it's sometimes single-purpose only, etc. It has a lot of downsides. What's existing today, I think what the consumer really wants, it doesn't matter how it's called, he wants an embedded, really easy to use and seamless solution. That's what the user wants. The user wants also a wallet which you cannot only use online but even in the offline world, like a real wallet.
And I want to give you guys an example how I see the future in five years from now, how I would like to see it. And let's say I go on a business trip and I get into a cab and go to the airport. And of course I pay the cab and ordering of the cab all with my phone. I get to the security checkpoint, I don't have a passport with me because it's already digital. I have it in my phone and I verify myself there. I get to the plane, I go to the boarding, everything with my mobile phone. I arrive in Europe, passport control again, I want to do it with my phone, I want to do it in a digital way. I get to the rental car station, why should I again give them my driving license, my credit card? Must be all digitized, must be all there with one click. I want to be able to get into my rental car, check into the hotel, and order online and pay flowers for my wife at home. That's how I want it. Just with my phone. And only the phone. And I don't want another account because this phone is being tied to me already anyway. I don't want five wallets, I don't want anything, I just want to use my phone. So basically what I need as a consumer, it's not an app-based wallet. What I need is a device-based wallet. That's how I call it.
So now we as Jumio, we don't see ourselves as provider for this, but in this world when we are really there and device-based wallets driven by the merchants are our reality, I don't use this wallet anymore. Actually, let me throw it away. That's it. I'm going to use my phone. Let's all throw them away.
M
Mark Barish20:31
I'm going to keep it later. Thank you. Our colleagues will be circulating to collect your wallets, watches, rings, and other valuables.
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Daniel Mattes20:40
Yeah, this lunch wasn't cheap so we gotta write it back somehow, right? So the good news is this core technology is actually existing. It's part of the operating systems today. This technology is called Passbook for instance, which is an open wallet technology. It's basically like this leather wallet you buy at Neiman Marcus for instance. And it's up to the merchants or the app providers to fill them up. And on Android recently just launched Samsung Wallet. There are other providers. So basically the core technology is already there. What's missing is the infrastructure and the platform to enable merchants to utilize it in their apps to provide single checkout experiences, single-click checkout experiences, to provide one-click sign-up procedures, etc. Because again, I believe that wallets will only be successful if people have trust to them, if they're open, and if they are driven by the merchants themselves. So we call that Jumio Port. And I again say we are not a wallet provider, we are an infrastructure provider, an enabler for the industry. Every merchant will be able to utilize device-based wallet technology within their own app.
So here are some examples. And I want to highlight it's not only online, it's also offline. So in the online world, what do I want? I want a one-click checkout experience. And I want to have a one-click identification experience. Either it's a one-click sign-up or it's an authentication of a transaction. I want it one click. I don't want to complicate it. And I don't want a user account, I don't want anything. And in the offline world, I want to go to the bar and prove that I'm over 21 with my phone. And I want to also be able to do in-store purchases that actually when I want cash. So now as a first example, I want to showcase how such a one-click checkout can look like. Well, before we get there, I think you all agree with me that you don't wake up in the morning and thinking, 'Well, I think I need to download a mobile app today.' It's not really the case. What's gonna happen is I think I wake up and say, 'Okay, I need a flight ticket to New York for example.' That's what really triggers it. So now I have prepared a demonstration and we're gonna showcase a purchase of an Austrian specialty. It's called Leberkässemmel, which is basically Austrian fast food version of McDonald's. And if you don't mind putting the screen up, please.
So this is an example and demo application where I can place an order and order a Leberkässemmel. And first of all, I click on 'I'm hungry now' and let's see if there are Leberkässemmel stores here in Vegas. Yeah, there are actually three. It would be quite surprised. Let's check in. All right. So now I'm gonna choose, like actually today I feel like Chili Leberkässemmel. Right. And now the checkout process, phase number one. So typically you would have to type in your credit card information, your billing address, your, you name it, whatever. It's a cumbersome process. We actually just utilize the camera and turn that phone into a credit card scanner. We just scan the card quickly. So as soon as I click here, all I have to do is focus on that card. And I'm done. That was the payment. I have to enter the CVV code. And I say pay now. Done.
So with this, our merchants experience significant increase of payment completion. As a matter of fact, up to three to five X. So when they had before let's say 10 people completing a purchase, now they have 30 to 50 people finalizing a purchase. So now what happened is, now I did my scan once, I have not signed up, I have not created an account. What happened is that in the cloud my device become associated to this payment credential. And how this could look like, it's very simple. So I go again and find a Leberkässemmel store. And this time I take a regular one. And now as you can see at the lower part of the screen, my credit card is already on file. So this time it actually went to Passbook, we pulled it up there. Obviously the critical details are stored highly secured and encrypted, PCI level one compliant in the cloud. Now I have truly the one-click experience. I just click here and I pay. Enter the CVV code. And done.
If we go back to the presentation please. Typing is the old way. Phone usage is just you, because everybody knows how to use a camera. And by using the camera alone, you increase your payment completion by three to five times. And obviously by utilizing Passbook and reusing your credentials without the requirement of even creating and storing or have a user account, it becomes even more effective. So another example would be the one-click identification. So let's say we are in a transaction environment. I want to rent a flat and I have to prove it's me. I do a one-click verification. And Mike, you want to quickly show the verification?
M
Mike Orlando27:22
My driver's license, similar to the credit card. Same simple process, simply hold my ID in front of the camera. Sorry about that. Simply hold the ID in front of the scanning bars. Focus is on the ID. Captures my credentials and populates the app. From there, all of my information is in the app. I can fill out a form, or better, I can just save to Passbook. And there it's in my Passbook account. That's it.
D
Daniel Mattes28:07
Exactly. So now back to the presentation. That was an easy example to extract and verify an enrollment or transactional verification. And this was the old way, right? You either got it with the fax machine via email, you got some ID documents in there. But in reality, the old way of doing it was not even secure. So basically if you look at it, this is a very interesting example. This was an ID which was really submitted in our system, and it's an extremely well-forged passport. So with this passport, I could open a bank account today, I could make transactions, I could gamble, I could do anything, because it was really, really well-forged. If you would have just the normal procedures in place by getting it in via fax machine and having a human look at it, you will not see that it's forged. But in reality, we have a technology, it's called white light analysis. If you look at the right side of the screen, you see basically those light areas. And here it's emphasized that this passport has been faked, especially the expiration date and the issue date. So basically the bottom line is, this technology is not only faster and easier, it's actually better than the human eye. And as a matter of fact, if you look at it, these are real-time statistics from our system. Our system is extremely accurate. So let's say you have a payment service provider, it's 30,000 transactions, two missed. That's an accuracy rate of, I don't know, but the fraud rate is 0.006. On a travel company, out of 133,000 transactions, only three missed. So overall, our system has a reported fraud rate of 0.004 percent.
To round up the story a little bit, so you've seen online in the online world transactions. Now we're gonna showcase a quick offline world example. One is for instance, so Mike just scanned his ID, so it's in Passbook, right? So he can use it for sign-up procedures or verification procedures. But you know what, he also likes to go to the bar. And he goes to the bar and obviously, you know, sometimes you forget your ID. Doesn't matter anymore. So let me be the bartender and let's see if I can quickly verify him. And how it works, for this I need actually my other example here. So basically he has his ID now fully digitized, verified in his Passbook. So I access my passport on my phone, pull up, excuse me, pull up my driver's license. There it is. So there's the image of my driver's license, my name, and a barcode that represents those details. And so I show the ID to Daniel.
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Mike Orlando30:54
No, and let me, so either I just say okay, it's okay, or I'm actually just scanning it. Okay, approved. And so in another real-world example, I used that the other night to get into Hakkasan for the Visa Vantiv party. Showed it to the bouncer. He looked at my phone, looked at me, looked back at the phone, waved me in. And believe it or not, I often get carded and questioned because people rarely believe that I'm over 21. So that was an example how this technology can also be used in the offline world.
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Daniel Mattes31:35
And so there's two more things which we are not showcasing today because we need some things to announce in the future as well. But our intention is to have a real-world, multi-usable, on-device wallet, offline, online, driven by the merchants. And it's called Jumio Port. Port for portable, for security, right? And the thing is, what we are building here is a merchant-based network. Today, in phase number one, we will only allow stored credentials to be reused by the merchants themselves. Take the Starbucks example for instance. Every merchant can have a one-click experience, one-click checkout, one-click sign-up, or one-click verification experience within his own app. And at one point, you're going to open this network up if we have reached critical mass. And I want to emphasize that our system, what we are building here, is containing the highest level of security and the highest level of authentication, which is crucial for a successful tool here.
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Mark Barish32:47
Thank you. So if I could just summarize very briefly, what Daniel has shown us solves two major issues. Number one, solves the narrowness of mobile apps being just payment, a mobile wallet being just payment devices. That's number one, because now you can cross over not just online but in offline, and not just payments but also IDs, sort of like your real wallet. And the second thing is that you don't have to download the wallet. It's in the context of the transaction. It's a byproduct of the transaction, and that's a way to stimulate giant adoption. Now I want to talk about this for a second, and with this we'll be closing out our presentation today. Security, as you know, and trust is at the heart of everything we do. And as has been pointed out, there's a little bit of a yank and pull between having things be extremely secure and at the same time having them be convenient and easy to use for consumers. And I can't say that any of the companies present are always finding the exact balance between those two items. But in thinking about security, we want to make sure that there is trust in this system. And the first trust comes from the validation of the credentials that go into the bucket in the first place. That's absolutely critical, because if credentials are not validated going in, then a system has no integrity, and then you don't know what you have. And that's one of the key pieces that we'd be bringing to the party.
But in studying this and speaking with many of the top 10 banks and credit bureaus and major merchants, we've detected that there seems to be a bit of a gap as it relates to the transmission and storage of customer information, of PII information. Payment information is handled very well under PCI, and that is working extremely to everyone's benefit. But on the PII side, if you think about it, there's all sorts of regs, sometimes governmental and best practices that deal with the collection, with privacy, with sharing, with notifications as it relates to PII, personally identifiable information. But there's really nothing that governs how this information is stored and transmitted. And as you've seen in the product demos that Daniel did, that's what we're all about, is how you create an easy way to store those credentials and an easy way to reuse them. So it's our intent to try and pull you all together and other companies who aren't present today to create a member-owned and funded and operated organization which we've termed CISTA, the Customer Information Storage and Transmission Association. And patterned somewhat after PCI, and our goal in this Q4 period is to solicit indications of interest from you all and other companies. We think we're on to something that would benefit the entire industry as well as consumers. And once those indications are collected, then our intent would be to launch this association in Q1 again, if you might advance.
So if you're interested in learning more about this or having your company participate with a seat at the table so that this association could formulate the standards in a way that's sensible, we all know that self-regulation is far superior to every other form of regulation. So a way that makes sense for our businesses, that adds value to our customers and the whole ecosystem, and does it in a way that will benefit everyone in the room here. If this is of interest, then I would ask or urge folks to register their indication of interest, because we need a critical mass of both founding members and subsequent members to make an organization of this nature work. And the organization would then formulate and enforce and certify the standards along the lines that PCI has done so well. So we think that would add a great deal of value to our ecosystem. Thank you.
Thank you, Eduardo.