There are very few people in the world, and more so in India, who inspire with decency, with a strong set of values, who believe in what they say, who are torchbearers of not just a legacy but who are deeply passionate about India. Even fewer are from the world of business. But today I have a guest who is not just a colossus but actually an inspiration to people across ages. Age doesn't define him. His work does, and he continues this tirelessly as someone who always believes in what he does and does what he believes in. Welcome, Mr. Tata.
Thank you, sir. It's nice to be here.
Sir, Ratan Tata Trust will be completing almost 125 years of its existence, the first of the trusts. When you look back at the work that the Tata Trusts have done, what do you feel and what ignites this feeling of compassion and giving back?
Well, I have a great sense of pride that over these 125 years, Sir Ratan Tata left his legacy to the philanthropic causes. Followed by his brother, Sir Dorab Tata, when he passed away, did exactly the same. And over the years, Tatas have been structured by the holding company or the proprietor's ownership being held by two charitable trusts. And over the years, an increase in the number of charity trusts that were created to work on the disparities that one found in the country at that time, a colonial country, and to work for the common good of the common man. This was a different thing. It set up cancer hospitals, schools, and institutions of that nature. It had also dealt heavily in terms of individual hardships. So through the years, the trusts have dealt with individual hardships. They have given scholarships to students. We've had past presidents of India who have been scholars of those Tata scholarships. We have created institutions which stand today, like the Indian Institute of Science, which the trust did not actually set up. Jamsetji Tata set that up.
But there's an interesting anecdote there, right? Between Swami Vivekananda and the conversation that Jamsetji Tata had with Swami Vivekananda aboard a ship.
I don't specifically know about that conversation, but they met each other and were inspired by each other. I know that. So over the years, the trusts have focused on either creating institutions that serve the common good, like cancer hospitals, etc., and institutions of learning, some international and some domestic, and causes which were said to be for the common good. What is refreshing is that the holding company for the whole Tata group, which Jamsetji Tata set up, that 66%, or at that time more, 85% of its income, dividend outflow, became income to the trust for the common good of the Indian citizen and foreign causes.
But when you, I mean, as you rightly said, at that time there was no need, there was no mandate. Today we have CSR, much abused as it is a phrase, but what do you think went through the minds of the founders when they set this up, and especially transferring their value in Tata Sons to the trusts?
Well, I think it was a different view of ownership. Mr. J.R.D. Tata often used to refer to Tatas as being the trustees of the people. The Tata family could have become tremendously wealthy by having distributorships, partnerships, etc., in the businesses. But most of the businesses, whether it was steel, whether it was power, or institutions, were set up as institutions for the country. So Jamsetji Tata could just as well have dedicated Tata Steel to the nation or dedicated Tata Power to the nation. They belong to the shareholders and to the people. Personal ownership and personal wealth happened when it happened, but was never the criteria for these companies to be established. So it was natural that he did leave his ownership to his two sons, and then his two sons, who had no children, left them in charitable trusts as beneficiaries of the companies that they held. So it's a refreshing change that gave way to ownership in an industry not being for the beneficial interest of A or B or C, but for the better good of humanity.
So if you look at the trusts today, they span a wide range of sectors, and there's a certain stress that you've laid on technology being a great intervention in some of the applications. Where do you believe the transformation of the trusts actually began and why?
Well, you know, if you look at India through the years, the needs of India have changed. We had famines, food famines in the British times. We don't have famines any longer. We had a majority of the people living in the rural areas. Today there's a mass migration to the urban areas, creating an important issue of urban poverty and hardships that didn't exist before. There was the creation of jobs in industrial organizations. Today automation and differences in terms of value chains, etc., make human jobs less important than machine jobs in many companies. So the needs of the nation have changed. Food shortages continue to exist in pockets. Water shortage is something that never existed in the past but is an issue today. A much larger population and creating jobs and knowledge. These are all issues that are issues of the changing times. For the trust to continue to do what they did at the turn of the century would be to be sitting in the twilight, thinking that the issues of the country were the same. And to me, that would have been a disappointment. So I think the trusts have gone through and are going through a transformation that, to use short terms, is making the trust relevant today. If we had not done that, they would have become irrelevant and creator of edifices that stood out as evidence of what the trust did but did not make a contribution to the country.
Well, I completely agree about the relevance of the trust. The one thing that a lot of people talk about is the Tata culture, the Tata way of life. If you work for the Tatas, on the one hand, it's almost as if you're working for a family. On the other, it's almost as if you're part of a legacy. How have successive leaders, you before you, JRD, how have you managed to retain that Tata culture in times which are sadly materialistic, competitive? How have you maintained that culture?
First of all, that culture becomes embodied in the DNA of an organization. It's set off by the early leaders, the founder in our case, who never was in need of wealth because he had it all. But it wasn't what drove him. The success of giving India its own independence in steel or power or the hospitality area, or what gave him the pride that he had made India self-sufficient. He didn't at that time look at the companies as being his but as belonging to the country. Somehow, that prevailed through the years, through his sons and then through JRD Tata for 50 years or so, where JRD would stand in a line rather than jump. Where he would give way to a customer first and not him. And that humility, I think, became embodied in what all the leaders of Tata companies had done, and we should protect that ferociously. The day we lose that, I think we've lost an important facet or input in the companies that we have. And the day we decide to cheat, the day we decide to do something that holds something for us and not for the customer, I think we will have lost a very, very important asset.
Has it been tough to stick by these values? Especially during times when values were being trampled upon because of politics, competition, blah blah blah. Were there times that you often felt that thank God we are not the shortcut Tatas? Because you could have taken that shortcut.
Yes. I'd be lying if I said there weren't moments when those issues came up and those decisions had to be made. Happily, at every time, boards stood together and leadership stood together and said, 'That's not what we do.' We, over the years, on occasion, have suffered as a result of that. But on the whole, I think we have. I believe that it's very important to come back at night and say, 'I have not succumbed.'
I love that because it's very easy to succumb. I mean, you must have faced political pressure, economic pressures, and yet you stood the course.
Sometimes you didn't know if you were doing the right thing. All things are not black and white. You have a choice. One choice leads you down a certain path long term. Another leads you down another path short term, and you have to weigh one issue against another. Hopefully, you make the right decision. Sometimes we don't, but we do it with innocence or naivety rather than intent and negativity. So I think that's a sort of dilemma that faces many leaders in the corporate world or politics. And so it does in the business community too.
In 1991, when you took over, you were stepping into giant shoes, JRD's shoes, and then you brought the entire group together. I still remember the work that you did around brand Tata and royalty, blah blah blah. When you took over and sat in that corner office in 1991, what was the one thought that raced through your mind? Because you were now the torchbearer and the legacy holder of almost 120, 130 years of existence.
On the one hand, it was a big move for me, but on the other hand, I joined the group in '62. So I'd been in various positions on the shop floor, in Australia, in textiles, in steel, in Tata Motors through the years, and it was, in relative terms, easy for me to relate to the bigger issue. The one thing I had, which maybe is not so evident, is I had a terrific mentor in JRD. I remember walking back from the meeting where I was appointed chairman. When he walked back, I walked with him to his office, and he told his secretary, 'Aloo, we'll have to move out of here now.' And I said, 'No, JRD, you don't move out. This is your office as long as you want it.' So he said, 'Really?' So I said, 'Yes, it is.' He said, 'Where would you sit?' I said, 'Where I'm sitting today. I have an office down the hall, and that's fine.' Then I was deadly afraid that JRD would forget that he stepped down. And time and time again, because he never stepped off the companies. He remained on the board of Tata Steel or Telco at that time. And I thought, suppose he runs the group from behind and forces his view. And he never did. In fact, he was my greatest mentor. And the years that he was alive, I used to go into his office and say, 'JRD, I wish this had happened 10 years ago. I've got such a great relationship.' And he said, 'Yes, you know, I wish so, too.' So I was very lucky in having him there. He lent his weight when he had to. Example, the retirement age. Without his support, I could never have done that. He would explode if he thought something was being done that was wrong. But on the whole, he was a terrific mentor. He was like a father, like a brother, gave advice. He always had time for you. It was a terrific relationship and very, very important. Not enough is being said about that.
But you two have been pretty reticent and shy, if I may add, about talking about the experiences that you went through, your relationship with JRD. I mean, some of the things that we're hearing now, we've never heard before. In your interactions with JRD, what was the one thing that you took away from that interaction? What was the core of his brand values or his kernel, as it were?
I would think if I were to have to pick one, humility would be on the top of the list. He was just a person who longed to be anonymous. And to some extent, that's rubbed off on me.
Yeah, you love being anonymous.
Yeah, I do. And as you go through life, you find that that becomes less so and less possible. And then you look at seeking anonymity by hiding.
But were you always shy? Were you always away from, you didn't want to meet, not meet people? You didn't want the arc lights on you?
I think so, because when I was in school, etc., you wanted to be part of the school and not the rich man's son or the chairman's son, or have a big car take you home while your classmates went by bus or smaller cars. You just wanted to be a normal person. And from time to time, I think I owe a lot to my father to ensure that we at no stage grew up, my brother and I, as pompous young people, but as people who'd like to be every day. And I think that has stayed with me.
I want to come back to the city you were born in, Bombay. What was it like growing up? And I know the personal trauma you went through on 26/11. What went through your mind on that evening? I remember you rushed to the Taj to see what was happening. What went through your mind? And it must have broken your heart to a great extent.
Well, to me, it started by one of my colleagues, Naushad Sunawala, telephoning me and saying that there's some shooting at the Taj. So I called the Taj, and nobody replied from the switchboard. As things turned out, I was not allowed into the lobby. The police came and they pushed everybody out. And Krishna Kumar was standing on this footpath outside. I was partly there, partly home watching on television. And it became very clear in a couple of hours that it was not a gang fight or an underworld thing. It was some form of attack by terrorists or by enemies of the state. The next morning, the government rang me to say it was all over. I, in fact, issued a TV statement that morning saying it was all over, and it was not. It went on for three days. By that time, everyone knew what it was. It was an attack by the enemy of the state. And my take on that was that whatever happened, we were under siege in this hotel, that whatever they did, we would rebuild the hotel, that the city would stand up and not fall down. And there was a tremendous galvanizing of the citizens of Bombay. Something that made everybody very proud of the way everybody stepped up to play a role. Nobody walked away from the situation as it stood, and you felt a great sense of pride that you were a part of this great city with citizens who were not running away from what we did.
And I remember you were particularly grieved at the loss of so many people, including people who were working at the Taj.
I'm going to come back to a larger national picture. You've seen prime ministers, you've seen governments at work at the state level, at the international level. India is at an exciting time, at an exciting place. What are your views about Narendra Modi?
First of all, let me just say I've known Mr. Modi when he was the chief minister of Gujarat. I turned to him when we had to change factories from Singur in West Bengal to Gujarat. So I've seen him and will never forget the way he found solutions for a company that was looking for a home.
How was that meeting when you met Mr. Modi in those days and told him about this move?
What I've said publicly is he invited me to come to move the factory to Gujarat, and I said we'd come if we had a home. And he said, 'I'll get you the land you want in three days.' And then he delivered that on the third morning. He said, 'Ratanji, here's the land that I promised.' And that just doesn't happen in India. So Mr. Modi, as prime minister now, is offering the Indian people a new India. I think we need to give him that opportunity to offer that new India. He's able and capable of and innovative enough to look at India fresh. And I, for one, am optimistic that with his leadership, India will be that new India that he has promised.
It's interesting you mentioned the new India. Of late, we've seen you invest in a lot of startups. You're backing a lot of entrepreneurs, young people who are taking great risks. What is your philosophy, and why do you choose the kind of investments you make?
Well, first of all, the embodiment of a vision that makes a startup happen is important. I'm not going to invest in a business that I have no interest in. So the business or the vision of that startup is important first. But the most important issue is to meet the founders. I have changed my view sometimes from negative to positive, sometimes positive to negative with the founders. For example, a founder that intends to just scale up his company to sell off is not a company I obviously want to be with. A founder who has a passion to stay with something and build it into a sustainable company that is taking its place is somebody I tend to support. So it varies. When I was chairman, I couldn't take this kind of view because somewhere or the other it would be conflicting with something that Tatas were doing. Now, as a free person, it's invigorating to do this, and I'm meeting a lot of young people who one day will be leaders of their industry, and it's nice to interact with them.
But I don't think you'll ever be free in a sense. I'm sure Chandra would come to you, comes to you, seeks your advice, seeks your views. He too needs a mentor. So, which brings me to a very interesting point. You've done so much, from flying planes to running conglomerates to sitting on international boards. What's the one thing that continues to drive you to this day?
That's a difficult question to answer. Because you get driven by some fire within yourself. You don't necessarily know what it is. It could be the people who lead an organization. It could be the passion with which somebody is pursuing what he wants to do. It may be taking the sight of the downtrodden because he's being picked at. It varies from time to time. But there is an issue of wanting to make a difference. And if you can help make that happen, that consumes you and provides you with the motivation to go forward.
