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Amnon Shashua
President & CEO, Mobileye Global

Keynote: The Future of AI - Avishai Abrahami and Prof. Amnon Shashua

📅 Dec 09, 2024 Wix Engineering Tech Talks 37 MIN 29 SEGMENTS · 2 SPEAKERS
Join Avishai Abrahami, CEO & Co-Founder of Wix, as he engages in a fascinating dialogue with Amnon Shashua, ...

Questions asked in this interview

7
  1. 1:41What was the vision for the company at such an early time?
  2. 7:19And if so, what are they?
  3. 12:58How are we going to see that evolving?
  4. 18:51... you think we're going to have AI that can replace a senior developer, where it gets a definition of a problem and builds the architecture, all the concepts, the scenarios, and then is able to implement it, which is a by far bigger problem?
  5. 26:05What can they do in the short term, in the long term?
  6. 30:46What is your opinion? Can AI be controlled?
  7. 36:29Is it after? Is it before?
Unknown 0:01 ↗
Hi everybody, and I thank you for having us here. It's super exciting, but even more exciting because of our guest today, Amnon. I'm sure all of you know him. He's one of the pillars of our industry here, one of the founders of the high-tech industry in Israel. So this is for me a huge thing that he was kind enough to come all the way from Jerusalem. Just think about the traffic to be here with us and to spend this time to answer questions. It's even more exciting for me because I know the questions and I really have no idea about the answers. A lot of them for me are at least interesting. Just for those of you who don't know, Amnon is a professor for mathematics and AI, a founder of many companies: Mobileye, OrCam, and I'm sure I forgot a few more. Winner of course of the Israeli award and the Dan David Prize, and a massive philanthropist. I've seen some of the things he did and it's really unbelievable. So again, thank you so much for coming.
Amnon Shashua 1:36 ↗
My pleasure.
Unknown 1:41 ↗
Before we go into any of the more new things about AI and everything else, I want to take you a bit back in time to 1999. You're a professor and you founded Mobileye, a company that has to do with artificial vision and making cars drive better, safer. In a time that artificial vision was mostly a joke, we were working on identifying if it's two or three in a scribble in 24-pixel squares. Can you tell us a bit how did you come with the idea? What was the vision for the company at such an early time?
Amnon Shashua 2:27 ↗
It was 1998. I had a company at that time called Cognight which developed optical sensors for building accurate three-dimensional models used in car production. Toyota was one of the customers. One day I get a request to come and meet their future division. They told me it's not about Cognight, it's about your role as a professor or your expertise in computer vision. I said okay. So I meet their people and they tell me, look, Subaru is coming out with a stereo system that will maintain safe distance to the car in front, what is known today as ACC, adaptive cruise control. And since your area of expertise is 3D, at that time my PhD was about three dimensions from images, we would like you to consult us and we'll pay you. I told them, you know, when I shut one eye I don't go blind. And then I went through a kind of a lecture, you know, why we have two eyes. Because if you really want to measure 3D by triangulation 100 meters away, you'll need a baseline of meters. A baseline of 10 cm is not good for triangulation long distances. We use triangulation only for very short distances, to thread a needle for example. But in order to know whether a car is 50 meters away or 80 meters away, you don't use triangulation. So I went through this and I told them, no, monocular is all what you need, you don't need stereo. They said, okay, we appreciate the knowledge that you kind of gave us, but we don't think it will work. We don't think it's going to be robust. We want to build the stereo system. And then I had a kind of a stroke of genius and I told them, you know what, give me a small budget and we'll do some demonstration. At that time, 1998, money was flowing there in Japan, there was no problem, money, and they gave me on the spot $200,000. $200,000 on the spot. Almost all right. $200,000. You know, today when you raise money for a company, that's nothing, but still, $200,000. So instead of taking that money and putting it in my pocket, I went to my close friend Ziv and I told him, look, this could be huge business. The entire industry is looking at it the wrong way. What you need is a monocular camera and eventually, because the cost would be very, very low, it's only one camera, and the performance would be better, although it's not intuitive why one camera would be better than two cameras, the performance would be better. And this eventually will be standardized and will be on every car. So we took that $200,000 and this is how we started the company. And that vision really came to fruition. These systems are in every car, they prevent accidents. And then in 2012, 2013, with the rise of deep learning, I came to the conclusion that now the next level is autonomous cars. And this is where we started kind of shifting and putting more and more resources on solving the problem of autonomy. Today we spend more than $600 million a year just on building the technology for the next decade.
Unknown 6:19 ↗
I mean that's amazing. And so it started actually with vision to detect obstacles, to detect the road, to detect cars and pedestrians. And then the next level was self-driving cars, which is kind of an extension. And that's amazing. And it kind of goes to the thing that I love to say, that real companies usually start from real problems that are real issues and that you are familiar with. And of course Toyota, and you of course working with them, knew the concept of like... By the way, Toyota never became our customer till today.
Amnon Shashua 6:58 ↗
Till today.
Unknown 7:00 ↗
Did they get stock though?
Amnon Shashua 7:01 ↗
No, they don't have stock in the company. They're not yet a customer. 25 years later, we have 98% of the world as our customers in terms of car makers, except Toyota.
Unknown 7:19 ↗
All right. And I'm going to jump to a completely different subject. You have multiple companies, right? And one of the things I keep wondering about is how similar is the culture between those companies and what is the culture. And there's a second part to this question: do you have similar management practices in all companies? And if so, what are they?
Amnon Shashua 7:49 ↗
So I would say that each company has its own culture, but what I can talk about is the culture of the company that I actually run, which is Mobileye. So I only run one company. All the rest, I'm a founder, chairman, and so forth, but I'm not running the company. Only Mobileye, which is 4,000 people, smaller than Wix, but still 4,000 people is a mouthful. So I can make observations about culture in a company like Mobileye, and I also had some observations while I was an executive at Intel, kind of to look at a much bigger company, a much bigger corporation of let's say 100,000 employees. And I think those observations are kind of catching really the essence. So on one hand, Mobileye, you know, we're developing cutting-edge technology, but on the other hand, that's 4,000 people. So how do you maintain agility and innovation when you have 4,000 people? So it came down kind of to three principles that we try to maintain all the time, which talks about culture. The first is sense of purpose. What I found out is that if there isn't a very strong sense of purpose, people don't focus on the product, they focus on self-advancement. Corporate culture tends to shift the attention from product to self-advancement. You know, what do I need to do in order to advance myself within the organization rather than what do I need to do in order to make the product better. So sense of purpose allows us to maintain this focus on the product. The second observation is about truth, truth-telling. In corporate, truth-telling is compromised. Truth gets compromised as you go up the managerial level. So each manager tries to hide the bad news and report only the good news upwards. So eventually the CEO doesn't have a good grasp of what's going on downstairs. And this is kind of a disease in all corporates, there isn't a sense of truth. So in order to kind of get a better chance of finding out the truth, we kind of encourage and insist that managers skip managerial levels. That you need to always sample employees very, very down the ladder and not only get your information from those who report to you. And also as a CEO, the number of people that report to the CEO is much more than the C-levels and executive VPs, also technical leaders that are not executives, in order to get this kind of information. And every employee in the company knows that managers sample employees, especially the CEO, and eventually at some point he or she will be sampled. So I shared that belief and I have a lot of people that directly report to me, way more than is usual. But it actually works much better. And I also work a lot with people that are not reporting to me or reporting to somebody who reports to somebody who reports to me. And this is very, very important. And the third part is cultivate leadership, not just being a manager, but cultivate leadership. And here also we found that there are three components that define leadership. One, you need to be intelligent, because if you're not intelligent, the people that report to you could game you and manipulate you. So this is basic, you need to be intelligent. Not everything in life you need to be intelligent, you know, there are politicians that you would not say that they're intelligent. We have a great example happening live today. So intelligence is not always a necessary condition, but if you want to be a leader, you need to be intelligent. That's basic. The second one is courage. It's the courage to change, to make change and change the status quo. People mostly accept the status quo and they don't have the incentive to change it, even if it's a bad status quo, because people adapt, they get familiar with the situation and they don't go and change it. Leaders are people who kind of challenge the status quo. And you want people to challenge the status quo, otherwise you're in stagnation. And third is to be able to kind of generate a vision, articulate a vision. So those are kind of the principles of a good culture that over the years I found out that this is what I want to see. And this is especially important when the organization is big. When the organization is small, it's a family, everybody knows everyone else and you handpick the people. When you have a corporate, then things get out of control very, very quickly.
Unknown 12:58 ↗
I think that's probably the best definition of leadership that I heard, because usually you have all the slogans, but this is actually very one, two, three. So I'm going to adopt that. It really was good. I like the fact that you said that a huge part of being a leader is challenging the standard, what is the current normal behavior or acceptable behavior, and the ability to break that. I think that is very true and I never thought about it in that way. So the next question I want to ask is about, and I'm moving to, well, you know, this guy is a professor for AI, so maybe we should ask some questions about AI. So why do you think is the future of LLMs? How are we going to see that evolving?
Amnon Shashua 13:49 ↗
What I think is the next step. So in order to understand this question, I think it's important to first internalize what are the components of a good AI system. And I believe that there are four components: knowledge, skill, precision, and intelligence. Now, knowledge and skill is what we have today. Language models of today are knowledgeable and are skillful in every downstream task that you focus on. Give it sufficient data for that downstream task and it will be skillful. Play chess better than humans, play Go better than humans, but that's skill. Precision is knowing what you know and admitting what you don't know. Language models are not good at precision. They don't know whether the answer they're providing is correct or not correct. Even if the answer is code, they don't know whether the code is correct or not correct. So precision is still missing. The fourth one, intelligence, is tricky. There's a seminal paper back in 2007 by Legg and Hunter, I think. They compiled a list of 70 definitions of intelligence. So it means that it's an ill-defined concept. But as computer scientists, they have a definition of intelligence, and the definition of intelligence is about generalization. Generalization is the ability to figure out a rule based on methods, tricks, tools that you have acquired through your profession, define a rule that will fit observations. And observations could be input-output pairs. The problem with language models, and true genius, they can develop new tools. For example, Newton developed calculus. Calculus didn't exist. But let's not talk about true genius, just the ability to find a rule that will fit observation. For example, Kepler, he made lots and lots of observations and he kind of compiled them into three rules. So this is the definition of intelligence from a computer scientist's point of view: generalization. The problem with language models of today is that they don't abide by this definition. And this is a bit tricky. During training, the systems learn based on this definition of generalization, but during inference, there is no learning. There was a hope when GPT-3 was introduced, there was a hope that few-shot learning is a way to do learning during inference. But today we know that this is not correct anymore. So what is happening with today's language models is that they're using only search. And during search, instead of fitting a rule to observations, they have kind of an internal reward, a neuronal reward for intermediate steps. This is what o1 is doing with these chain of thoughts. Now, this is a bit interesting because if you look at AI in the 80s, it was rule-based symbolic AI. Then in the 90s, machine learning, statistical learning has emerged with this idea of generalization, probably approximately correct framework. And now it seems that there is a shift towards search, because what these models are doing is purely search. There's no learning in terms of generalization. Now I believe that inference without learning will never reach the stage of true expertise. Because if you look at language models today, it's like a mediocre assistant. So say for example you give it a task, here's a problem, write code for this problem. It'll write code and then there's a mistake. So you give it feedback, then it will correct a mistake. Then you give it another feedback because instead of finding an n log n complexity, it found an n squared complexity. You give it another feedback and another feedback. Eventually you come to the point where you say, I can write it myself. Why do I need this lazy assistant that I need to give it feedback again and again and again? And this is because there's no notion of learning. So I believe that there's another breakthrough missing where learning would be embedded into the inference stage, and only then we can see the next step of building AI that reaches the levels of experts and not just a mediocre assistant.
Unknown 18:51 ↗
This is actually a good intro for my next question. I've been using Copilot to write code, I've been using ChatGPT to write code, and it looks like magic, right? You write something and it completes it. But the results are mostly naive and it kind of recycles code from the internet. You feel it doesn't, and it can't even replace a junior developer. So my question, and it's a two-part question again: when do you think we'll have AI that can replace a junior developer? And when do you think we're going to have AI that can replace a senior developer, where it gets a definition of a problem and builds the architecture, all the concepts, the scenarios, and then is able to implement it, which is a by far bigger problem?
Amnon Shashua 19:44 ↗
I'll divide the answer into two. First, I just want to be clear, everybody here is a developer, they're very worried. So I'll tell you first, at Mobileye we did a test of using Copilot. By the way, today we're not using Copilot, there are open-source alternatives that are even better than Copilot and they cost much less. So we're not using Copilot anymore, we're using open-source. But we did a test on using Copilot and what we found out is that it introduces more bugs than a regular developer. And the amount of time it takes you to discover those bugs, and some of the bugs are really very, very subtle because it looks great and the syntax is correct, and the time it takes to remove the bugs is more than the time it takes to write the code. So it actually slows down development, because again we're talking about production code, not something that kind of works. It has to be production code, it's in cars, it has to work perfectly and so forth. But now to your question. A year ago I founded another company which is still in stealth, because I don't have 100% guarantee we'll be quiet about it. You can just share everything here. It's called Double AI. It's three of my former PhD students, my colleague Shai Shalev-Shwartz, professor at the Hebrew University, is also CTO of Mobileye. We are together for more than 25 years. And it's about seven employees to tackle exactly this problem. How to build, so instead, I don't subscribe to AGI because I think the G is ill-defined. I do subscribe to AI expert. So the kind of question, I remember about a year and a half ago I gave a kind of a lecture at IDC, today it's called Reichman University, about language models. It was just the beginning, ChatGPT came out, and Gil Kalai was in the audience. So Gil Kalai is a mathematician, and when I finished he told me, do you see any time in the future where this kind of technology can be a great mathematician, can be a great physicist, a great scientist? I said I don't think so. I don't know, but it kind of lingered in my head that maybe you can. So this is what Double AI is trying to do, especially in the coding area. And what is missing in order to, you know, giving a problem and getting a solution that is correct, a solution means a piece of code that is correct, there are two pieces. One is the precision that I mentioned before. Because take for example o1 and give it some problems from Codeforces. So Codeforces, everybody here knows Codeforces. You give a problem from Codeforces, say take 100 problems from Codeforces. It's a bit tricky because if it's old problems, then during pre-training, you already got the problem, the model already learned the solution. But let's assume you take new problems which are after the cutoff date of training, and you'll see, o1, which is the best, will solve 20% of the problems. But the other 80%, it doesn't know, it didn't solve it, will give you simply the wrong solution. So this is not useful. So you need precision, not only recall. You need to say I don't know how to solve it, that's okay. But if you do give me a solution, I want guarantees that it's correct, because for me checking the solution will take more time than writing the solution. So first is the precision, how to build precision into the language model. This is one task what this team of seven people are doing. And second, this definition of intelligence that I mentioned before, how to create generalization during inference. Because this is how an expert works. You receive a problem, the first thing you do after you understand the problem is you write down a number of kind of input-output examples, kind of toy examples, so you can start thinking of it. And then you try to discover a rule that will fit those samples. So this is exactly the process of generalization, but you do it during inference. So those are the two areas that the company is working on. I cannot guarantee now that there will be success, but it looks positive, it looks very, very promising. So hopefully maybe in a few months I can reach to a point where I say yes, we have found out the right thing, and then really go and raise money.

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APA, MLA, BibTeX
APA

Shashua, A. (2024, December 9). Keynote: The Future of AI - Avishai Abrahami and Prof. Amnon Shashua [Interview transcript]. Wix Engineering Tech Talks. CEOInterviews.AI. https://ceointerviews.ai/interview/796679/

MLA

Amnon Shashua. "Keynote: The Future of AI - Avishai Abrahami and Prof. Amnon Shashua." Wix Engineering Tech Talks, 9 Dec. 2024. Transcript, CEOInterviews.AI, https://ceointerviews.ai/interview/796679/.

BibTeX
@misc{shashua2024_796679,
  author       = {Amnon Shashua},
  title        = {Keynote: The Future of AI - Avishai Abrahami and Prof. Amnon Shashua},
  howpublished = {Interview transcript, Wix Engineering Tech Talks. CEOInterviews.AI},
  year         = {2024},
  month        = {dec},
  url          = {https://ceointerviews.ai/interview/796679/},
  note         = {Speaker-attributed transcript with timestamps}
}